Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
(Post 19998340)
More Dyna Mo disinformation... :1orglaugh
I have the nutsack to share my views directly via my own words and you seem to have an issue with that, thus your need to describe my views as "disinformation" attempting to discredit me by suggesting I am intentionally trying to spread falsehoods. Yet as I've mentioned, I'm more than open to facts and figures. And if I'm wrong, I've acknoweldged that many times here at gfy. Sadly, I've never once seen you be able to do that.
dyna mo
02-27-2014 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltav
(Post 19998339)
This isn't correct. From the NIH's own website entry on smallpox: "Contaminated clothing or bed linens also can spread the virus. Those caring for people with smallpox need to use special safety measures to ensure that all bedding and clothing from the infected person are cleaned appropriately with bleach and hot water. Caretakers can use disinfectants such as bleach and ammonia to clean contaminated surfaces."
But it's true there aren't too many documents indicating anything like intentional biological warfare - just a few. Again, I think we're running into a semantics issue where you're citing deaths as a direct result of violence and others are totaling them as a direct result of European expansion (including violence, disease brought by Euros, famine due to eradicated food sources and loss of land, etc).
Either way, lotta people died, same as everywhere else.
Thanks for the update, I was going on recollection. Nevertheless, the point is still valid, a correspondence between 2 military figures 300+ years into the time that disease had wiped out Indians is no real proof that the Army had a strategy to use small pox to not only wipe out the Indians, but actually wiped out any significant # of them, the majority of them had already succombed to the disease.
dyna mo
02-27-2014 03:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltav
(Post 19998339)
But it's true there aren't too many documents indicating anything like intentional biological warfare - just a few. Again, I think we're running into a semantics issue where you're citing deaths as a direct result of violence and others are totaling them as a direct result of European expansion (including violence, disease brought by Euros, famine due to eradicated food sources and loss of land, etc).
Either way, lotta people died, same as everywhere else.
This seems like an accurate description.
mineistaken
02-27-2014 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuLion
(Post 19998048)
Wow, talk about pissed off and racist people..
Anti illegal, not anti race. People like to drop racism everywhere where white people say something.
crockett
02-27-2014 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerPimp
(Post 19998226)
Fear China not the Mexicans
The Chinese can't swim that far silly..
AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
02-27-2014 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo
(Post 19998356)
I have the nutsack to share my views directly via my own words and you seem to have an issue with that, thus your need to describe my views as "disinformation" attempting to discredit me by suggesting I am intentionally trying to spread falsehoods. Yet as I've mentioned, I'm more than open to facts and figures. And if I'm wrong, I've acknoweldged that many times here at gfy. Sadly, I've never once seen you be able to do that.
It doesn't take a nutsack to spread disinformation, and the fact is that you repeatedly spread falsehoods, I just rarely call you out on them (I'm even more generous to Robbie, whose anecdotes and libertarian bombastic bluster is mind-boggling at times, lol).
I showed where the 100 million figure probably came from, even though I wasn't the one who posted the image that provoked the controversy (this time), and I also question the numbers that Stannard came up with (however I do not deny that there was massive abuse and mistreatment of Native Americans by the European settlers, and later the US government, that totally fits the definition of genocide).
I'm curious, where did you get the idea that smallpox was impossible to transmit via blankets, since you stated it unequivocally more than once?
You said if you were wrong you admit it, but if you want to split hairs, your point on smallpox was not "still valid" (as you postulated), since your premise was that it was impossible for Small Pox to spread through blankets.
One more example of how you mislead people, is that you have suggested that I never correct myself when I am in error on GFY. Indeed I have. You even posted before and after me in this same thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
(Post 19872790)
Woops, my bad...had the wrong show (although probably a good thing for AVN, lol). :helpme
BTW, I just noticed that I misspelled "Whoops" in that post too...I guess I can pull a Dyna Mo Hmmm, and say that I was still correct, since Whoops is phoneticized as Woops: :winkwink:
Quote:
whoops
wo͞ops,wo͝ops/
exclamation informal
1.
another term for oops.
I think the saddest part of the internet are the people who believe memes.
Actual # is closer to about 25,000 max killed by EUROPEANS and their descendants.
it was max 25 total...and 19 of them died from exploding backpacks at airports :2 cents: also you make such a strong point with EUROPEANS killed the 25 terrorist native americans...this completely washes all responsibility form your founding fathers who all had legal visas drawn in the native american embassy in europe...
it was a tourist thing IMO "Come loot and pillage in the Americas! All you can steal for 99cents!"
may I congratulate you on the stupidity of your "EUROPEANS did it"?
ah american history LOL not a single fucking proud moment...
"americans sick of illegals" what advanced sarcasm LOL man the north korea in you guys is sooooo strong :1orglaugh ok no carry on pretending you have the right to moan about illegals LOL its very amusing
dyna mo
02-27-2014 03:59 PM
ADG, what is it you want from me? I already mentioned to Deltav, I stand corrected on the small pox. If you want me to recollect exactly where I recollect that, that's not possible, I'm too old to pinpoint it. You want me to tell you you're always right? ALways agree with you? Not post my views that may not jibe with your's?
Apologize for something?
Fill me in, I'm open. I've settled my differences with several people on this board and get along with them fine these days and still post my views and they do as well, perhaps you're open to that as well.
it was max 25 total...and 19 of them died from exploding backpacks at airports :2 cents: also you make such a strong point with EUROPEANS killed the 25 terrorist native americans...this completely washes all responsibility form your founding fathers who all had legal visas drawn in the native american embassy in europe...
it was a tourist thing IMO "Come loot and pillage in the Americas! All you can steal for 99cents!"
may I congratulate you on the stupidity of your "EUROPEANS did it"?
ah american history LOL not a single fucking proud moment...
"americans sick of illegals" what advanced sarcasm LOL man the north korea in you guys is sooooo strong :1orglaugh ok no carry on pretending you have the right to moan about illegals LOL its very amusing
You do realize the FOunding Fathers era was ~1770s right? A full 300 years into this. I also stated Europeans and their descendants, which is accurate/
.
dyna mo
02-27-2014 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crucifissio
(Post 19998417)
it was max 25 total...and 19 of them died from exploding backpacks at airports :2 cents: also you make such a strong point with EUROPEANS killed the 25 terrorist native americans...this completely washes all responsibility form your founding fathers who all had legal visas drawn in the native american embassy in europe...
it was a tourist thing IMO "Come loot and pillage in the Americas! All you can steal for 99cents!"
may I congratulate you on the stupidity of your "EUROPEANS did it"?
ah american history LOL not a single fucking proud moment...
"americans sick of illegals" what advanced sarcasm LOL man the north korea in you guys is sooooo strong :1orglaugh ok no carry on pretending you have the right to moan about illegals LOL its very amusing
Are you not aware of the spanish colonization of America which began in the 1400s?
dyna mo
02-27-2014 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crucifissio
(Post 19998417)
"americans sick of illegals" what advanced sarcasm LOL man the north korea in you guys is sooooo strong :1orglaugh ok no carry on pretending you have the right to moan about illegals LOL its very amusing
When did I say I was sick of illegals? or moan about them?
deltav
02-27-2014 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crucifissio
(Post 19998417)
it was max 25 total...and 19 of them died from exploding backpacks at airports :2 cents: also you make such a strong point with EUROPEANS killed the 25 terrorist native americans...this completely washes all responsibility form your founding fathers who all had legal visas drawn in the native american embassy in europe...
it was a tourist thing IMO "Come loot and pillage in the Americas! All you can steal for 99cents!"
may I congratulate you on the stupidity of your "EUROPEANS did it"?
ah american history LOL not a single fucking proud moment...
"americans sick of illegals" what advanced sarcasm LOL man the north korea in you guys is sooooo strong :1orglaugh ok no carry on pretending you have the right to moan about illegals LOL its very amusing
Cocaine is a helluva drug...
pimpmaster9000
02-27-2014 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deltav
(Post 19998433)
Cocaine is a helluva drug...
denial is so amusing to watch...carry on...
pimpmaster9000
02-27-2014 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo
(Post 19998425)
Are you not aware of the spanish colonization of America which began in the 1400s?
and those same spaniards are illegals now in "your" country even though they got visas (LOL) earlier :1orglaugh
dyna mo
02-27-2014 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crucifissio
(Post 19998455)
and those same spaniards are illegals now in "your" country even though they got visas (LOL) earlier :1orglaugh
I couldn't care less. And I live in socal! Home to many (most?) illegals.
Sly
02-27-2014 04:49 PM
Where is CyberSEO when we need him?
CourtneyR
02-27-2014 04:58 PM
its really a shame how ignorant some people can be. All our or families immigrated to the US at one point from elsewhere (besides the native Americans who we killed and stole land from). I don't see how other can push that fact out of their mind just to beat there cheats and say GTFO.
Grapesoda
02-27-2014 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly
(Post 19998172)
True, it is a classic piece of history.
Smallpox was bad news. Now, one could make the argument that white man purposely gave natives smallpox, and that could be considered murder/slaughter/genocide. How to get those numbers? No clue. I suppose we could pull them out of our ass. I mean, we've already seen so much of that in this thread, let's throw in another chunk of dookie.
actually an America carvery officer did in fact give smallpox infected blankets to the Indians.
On June 29, 1763, a week after the siege began, Bouquet was preparing to lead an expedition to relieve Fort Pitt when he received a letter from Amherst making the following proposal: "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."
however germ warfare has always been very poplar since earliest times
Grapesoda
02-27-2014 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo
(Post 19998361)
Thanks for the update, I was going on recollection. Nevertheless, the point is still valid, a correspondence between 2 military figures 300+ years into the time that disease had wiped out Indians is no real proof that the Army had a strategy to use small pox to not only wipe out the Indians, but actually wiped out any significant # of them, the majority of them had already succombed to the disease.
On June 29, 1763, a week after the siege began, Bouquet was preparing to lead an expedition to relieve Fort Pitt when he received a letter from Amherst making the following proposal: "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."[
_Richard_
02-27-2014 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapesoda
(Post 19998520)
however germ warfare has always been very poplar since earliest times
:2 cents::2 cents:
Dvae
02-27-2014 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CourtneyR_FFN
(Post 19998489)
its really a shame how ignorant some people can be. All our or families immigrated to the US at one point from elsewhere (besides the native Americans who we killed and stole land from). I don't see how other can push that fact out of their mind just to beat there cheats and say GTFO.
If you feel that strongly about the fact that we stole land from the native Americans then you better start packing. You're on stolen land. How can you sleep at night knowing that fact?
Wars are fought for land as well as other reasons, somebody wins somebody loses. Get over it!
dyna mo
02-27-2014 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapesoda
(Post 19998525)
On June 29, 1763, a week after the siege began, Bouquet was preparing to lead an expedition to relieve Fort Pitt when he received a letter from Amherst making the following proposal: "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."[
Yes, ADG already pointed out that obscure communication. Again, that doesn't reflect widespread strategy to use smallpox as a weapon and also doesn't matter, there had already been ~300 years of smallpox wiping out Indians prior to that correspondence.
Dvae
02-27-2014 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by crockett
(Post 19997689)
Guess that's the reason we took all that land from the Mexicans too?
What land did we take? I seem to recall a war being fought and monies being paid. Thats how it works. Somebody wins somebody loses.
dyna mo
02-27-2014 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapesoda
(Post 19998525)
On June 29, 1763, a week after the siege began, Bouquet was preparing to lead an expedition to relieve Fort Pitt when he received a letter from Amherst making the following proposal: "Could it not be contrived to Send the Small Pox among those Disaffected Tribes of Indians? We must, on this occasion, Use Every Stratagem in our power to Reduce them."[
more from the wiki page you quoted:
Quote:
the disease was already in the area and may have reached the Indians through other vectors.
Indeed, even before the blankets had been handed over, the disease may have been spread to the Indians by native warriors returning from attacks on infected white settlements.
dyna mo
02-27-2014 07:10 PM
I decided to do a bit of googling on the smallpox as a weapon thing, here's what I've found
Quote:
The now-familiar account of the infected blankets at Fort Pitt needs revision.
Logic, a better understanding of smallpox itself, and another look at the
evidence call into question much of the standard rendition of the story and
the ways that historians for more than a century have misrepresented the evidence.
Quote:
In his Ecological Imperialism Crosby devoted
an appendix to smallpox and, in a note, discussed what he called "the old
legend of intentional European bacteriological warfare." Asserting that the
colonists certainly would have liked to wage such a war and did talk about
giving infected blankets and such to the indigenes, and they may even have
done so a few times, but by and large the legend is just that, a legend. Before
the development of modern bacteriology at the end of the 1 9 'h century, diseases
did not come in ampoules, and there were no refrigerators in which to
store the ampoules.... As for infected blankets, they might or might not
work. Furthermore, and most important, the intentionally transmitted disease
might swing back on the white population.... These people were
dedicated to quarantining smallpox, not to spreading it.
Quote:
One historian, Bernhard Knollenberg, was not impressed by Peckham's
analysis of the Fort Pitt incident, which was "substantially the same as
Parkman's." Knollenberg, in an article in the Mississippi Valley Historical Review,
went over all the documentation related to smallpox at Fort Pitt and
came to a quite different conclusion than Peckham or Parkman. "It is true,"
Knollenberg announced, "that some British officers may be charged with what
Parkman called a 'detestable' intent, but execution of the intent is not supported
even by circumstantial evidence."
Quote:
The multicultural revisionism of the 1980s and 1990s seemed to reinvigorate
the old story. No one did more during those decades to spread and
extend it than Francis Jennings. In his Empire ofFortune, published in 1988,
he hinted that the British-unleashed smallpox caused "possibly more deaths"
than the fighting; the various outbreaks of smallpox that hit the natives during
the fighting of the 1750s might have been more British germ warfare. His
"suspicion" was supported by no evidence except the Fort Pitt episode of 1763.
Quote:
when Bouquet wrote to
Fort Pitt's commander, he said nothing about passing on smallpox to the Indians,
as Knollenberg pointed out. Nor did Bouquet do anything about spreading
the disease afterward. Bouquet's response to Amherst seems to have been
merely a way to deflect a bizarre idea of his superior officer. As the colonel
commented inJuly 1763, sometimes it was better "to hide what one thinks.""
In practice, Bouquet ignored Amherst's suggestion, not out of humanitarian
feelings towards the Indians, but for his own personal safety. Neither Amherst
nor Bouquet actually tried germ warfare.
Quote:
The time is long overdue for what happened at Fort Pitt in 1763 to be discussed rationally and on the basis of evidence rather than unsupported and repititious assumptions.
Alfred W. Crosby, Ecological Imperialism:
The Biological Expansion ofEurope, 900-1900
(New York, 1986), 345
Bernhard Knollenberg, "General Amherst
and Germ Warfare," Mississippi Valley Historical
Review, 41 (1954-1955), 489-494.
klinton
02-28-2014 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly
(Post 19998466)
Where is CyberSEO when we need him?
looks like that he engages only in topics that talk about his motherland, Russia.
Matt 26z
02-28-2014 03:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CourtneyR_FFN
(Post 19998489)
its really a shame how ignorant some people can be. All our or families immigrated to the US at one point from elsewhere
Hypothetically speaking, lets say you wanted to leave the US and move to another country.
Do you believe you have the right to immigrate to any country in the world whether you meet their requirements or not?
2MuchMark
02-28-2014 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
(Post 19997461)
For those too lazy to click... :helpme
It's going to be a rough transition for those white folks when they find themselves and their attitudes in the minority in the not too distant future. :2 cents:
Native Americans have been set up with millions of acres of reservation land to do as they please. They don't even have to pay taxes.
Nearly 80% of the Native population were killed when the Europeans arrived. They were rounded up and forced to move to barren lands. Many starved and died due to exposure. Others were killed when they tried to return home. Their villages were set on fire. Women and children were killed too. And don't forget diseases like small pox were intentionally given to them too. Bounties were paid for their scalps.
Why would you think that this small "gift" in any way begins to make up for what was done to them?
Since I had my google still up this morning, I decided to do a bit more googling over a cup of coffee. For this, I randomly selected another meme from this thread, I chose this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
(Post 19998193)
Come to find out (in ~.0032 seconds) this is another meme that's a total falsehood. The words are not even remotely authentic, Chief Seattle never uttered these words, a Hollywood screenwriter wrote them.
Quote:
Chief Seattle is probably our greatest manufactured prophet
The words chief Seattle has become famous for were written by Ted Perry, the screenwriter for "Home", a 1972 film about ecology.
Nearly 80% of the Native population were killed when the Europeans arrived. They were rounded up and forced to move to barren lands. Many starved and died due to exposure. Others were killed when they tried to return home. Their villages were set on fire. Women and children were killed too. And don't forget diseases like small pox were intentionally given to them too. Bounties were paid for their scalps.
Why would you think that this small "gift" in any way begins to make up for what was done to them?
You should read more. Much of what you just wrote has been shown to be false right here in this thread.
dyna mo
02-28-2014 06:40 AM
Since that googling only took me through a couple sips of coffee, I decided to do a bit more googling on that meme's message of Indians being in balance with the earth.
I quickly came across gobs of documention re: Indians deforestation of the Americas, which some of us already knew a bit about. What struck me was the unbelievable amount of deforestation the Indians actually did.
In fact, researcher discovered that the Indians burned so much forest down, that some researchers feel they set the stage for modern day global warming.
Quote:
studying historic drought cycles in North America using isotopes, or variants, of carbon in stalagmites. the carbon record contained evidence of a major change in the local ecosystem beginning at 100 B.C. This intrigued the team because a dig in a nearby cave had yielded evidence of a Native American community there 2,000 years ago.
the team found very high levels of charcoal beginning 2,000 years ago, as well as a carbon isotope history.
This suggests Native Americans significantly altered the local ecosystem by clearing and burning forests, probably to make fields and enhance the growth of nut trees, Springhaer said. It’s a picture that conflicts with the popular notion that early Native Americans had little impact on North American landscapes.
In fact, when smallpox was introduced into the Americas in 1520 and proceeded over the next 300 years to wipeout >93% of the Indian population
Quote:
Smallpox is believed to have arrived in the Americas in 1520 on a Spanish ship sailing from Cuba, carried by an infected African slave.
The instant reforestation over that period, due to the lack of Indians burning everything down, caused a mini ice age:
Quote:
The power of viruses is well documented in human history. Swarms of little viral Davids have repeatedly laid low the great Goliaths of human civilization, most famously in the devastating pandemics that swept the New World during European conquest and settlement.
In recent years, there has been growing evidence for the hypothesis that the effect of the pandemics in the Americas wasn't confined to killing indigenous peoples. Global climate appears to have been altered as well.
Stanford University researchers have conducted a comprehensive analysis of data detailing the amount of charcoal contained in soils and lake sediments at the sites of both pre-Columbian population centers in the Americas and in sparsely populated surrounding regions. They concluded that reforestation of agricultural lands—abandoned as the population collapsed—pulled so much carbon out of the atmosphere that it helped trigger a period of global cooling, at its most intense from approximately 1500 to 1750, known as the Little Ice Age.
:)
Cherry7
02-28-2014 06:49 AM
So to sum up
The most obnoxious religious fanatics left Europe to go the Americas, committed genocide using guns and disease.
That's just the way of the world.
But now its a problem because people are arriving without the right piece of paper.
They should arrive we guns and disease and take over the place properly.
Matt 26z
02-28-2014 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by **********
(Post 19998900)
Nearly 80% of the Native population were killed when the Europeans arrived. They were rounded up and forced to move to barren lands. Many starved and died due to exposure. Others were killed when they tried to return home. Their villages were set on fire. Women and children were killed too. And don't forget diseases like small pox were intentionally given to them too. Bounties were paid for their scalps.
Why would you think that this small "gift" in any way begins to make up for what was done to them?
What would their lives look like had the Europeans turned around and left? They would be living like the uncontacted tribes in South America who are still in the stone age.
So would you rather:
A) Your ancestors were killed, but you live in a modern world.
B) Everyone was left alone and you now live in the stone age.
Take your pick. Which would you rather have?
kittykatt
02-28-2014 02:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuLion
(Post 19998048)
Wow, talk about pissed off and racist people..
I'll get the popcorn? :party-smi
L-Pink
02-28-2014 03:04 PM
The guys from T-shirt Hell want me to remind everyone ??...
or at least smarter, they liked killing each other a lot.
Vendzilla
02-28-2014 03:19 PM
My Great Grandmothers first name was morning, that was before hippies. She was full blood. On my dad's side. On my mothers side, my great grand mother was also full blooded,I couldn't pronounce her real name. But I remember her.
So pale faces, go home.
Here in LA, Mexican or Latinos make up over 50% of the population now, half the bill boards it seems are in spanish
2MuchMark
02-28-2014 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
(Post 19998340)
More Dyna Mo disinformation... :1orglaugh
From the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases:
Getting back on topic, I am appalled at the ignorance and hatred displayed in the video that started this thread. Not sure how much good can come from such attitudes. :2 cents:
As I indicated earlier, American white racists are going to be in for a rude awakening as the demographics rapidly change over the next 10-20 years. If they are not very happy with minorities now, wait until the tables are turned on them. :helpme
:stoned
ADG
Dyna Mo PWNED!
dyna mo
02-28-2014 04:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by **********
(Post 19999729)
Dyna Mo PWNED!
Good thing all Canadians aren't as slow as you.
Try and keep up, or at least try and hide your bias.
AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
02-28-2014 06:14 PM
Quote:
What Chief Seattle Really Said
This text is an exact reproduction of the first newspaper account of the speech, published in 1887. It was transcribed and corrected by Dan and Patricia Miller of Santa Cruz, CA, who went to the Washington State Archives and photocopied the original newspaper. (Any remaining errors are this editor's -- Chris Laning.)
Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion on our fathers for centuries untold, and which, to us, looks eternal, may change. To-day it is fair, to-morrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never set. What Seattle says, the great chief, Washington, can rely upon, with as much certainty as our pale-face brothers can rely upon the return of the seasons.
The son of the white chief says his father sends us greetings of friendship and good will. This is kind, for we know he has little need of our friendship in return, because his people are many. They are like the grass that covers the vast prairies, while my people are few, and resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain.
The great, and I presume also good, white chief sends us word that he wants to buy our lands but is willing to allow us to reserve enough to live on comfortably. This indeed appears generous, for the red man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, for we are no longer in need of a great country.
There was a time when our people covered the whole land as the waves of a wind-ruffled sea cover its shell-paved floor. But that time has long since passed away with the greatness of tribes now almost forgotten. I will not mourn over our untimely decay, nor reproach my pale-face brothers for hastening it, for we, too, may have been somewhat to blame.
When our young men grow angry at some real or imaginary wrong and disfigure their faces with black paint, their hearts, also, are disfigured and turn black, and then their cruelty is relentless and knows no bounds, and our old men are not able to restrain them.
But let us hope that hostilities between the red-man and his pale-face brothers may never return. We would have everything to lose and nothing to gain.
True it is that revenge, with our young braves, is considered gain, even at the cost of their own lives, but old men who stay at home in times of war, and old women who have sons to lose, know better.
Our great father, Washington, for I presume he is now our father as well as yours, since George has moved his boundaries to the north; our great and good father, I say, sends us word by his son, who, no doubt, is a great chief among his people, that if we do as he desires, he will protect us.
His brave armies will be to us a bristling wall of strength, and his great ships of war will fill our harbors so that our ancient enemies far to the northward, the Simsiams and Haidas, will no longer frighten our women and old men. Then he will be our father and we will be his children.
But can this ever be? Your God loves your people and hates mine; he folds his strong arms lovingly around the white man and leads him as a father leads his infant son, but he has forsaken his red children; he makes your people wax strong every day, and soon they will fill the land; while our people are ebbing away like a fast-receding tide, that will never flow again.
The white man's God cannot love his red children or he would protect them. They seem to be orphans and can look nowhere for help. How then can we become brothers? How can your father become our father and bring us prosperity and awaken in us dreams of returning greatness?
Your God seems to us to be partial. He came to the white man. We never saw Him; never even heard His voice; He gave the white man laws but He had no word for His red children, whose teeming millions filled this vast continent as the stars fill the firmament.
No, we are two distinct races and must ever remain so. There is little in common between us. The ashes of our ancestors are sacred and their final resting place is hallowed ground, while you wander away from the tombs of your fathers seemingly without regret.
Your religion was written on tables of stone by the iron finger of an angry God, lest you might forget it. The red man could never remember or comprehend it.
Our religion is the traditions of our ancestors, the dreams of our old men, given by the great Spirit, and the visions of our sachems, and is written in the hearts of our people.
Your dead cease to love you and the homes of their nativity as soon as they pass the portals of the tomb. They wander off beyond the stars, are soon forgotten, and never return. Our dead never forget the beautiful world that gave them being.
They still love its winding rivers, its great mountains and its sequestered vales, and they ever yearn in tenderest affection over the lonely-hearted living, and often return to visit and comfort them.
Day and night cannot dwell together. The red man has ever fled the approach of the white man, as the changing mists on the mountain side flee before the blazing morning sun.
However, your proposition seems a just one, and I think my folks will accept it and will retire to the reservation you offer them, and we will dwell apart and in peace, for the words of the great white chief seem to be the voice of nature speaking to my people out of the thick darkness that is fast gathering around them like a dense fog floating inward from a midnight sea.
It matters but little where we pass the remainder of our days. They are not many. The Indian's night promises to be dark. No bright star hovers about the horizon. Sad-voiced winds moan in the distance. Some grim Nemesis of our race is on the red man's trail, and wherever he goes he will still hear the sure approaching footsteps of the fell destroyer and prepare to meet his doom, as does the wounded doe that hears the approaching footsteps of the hunter.
A few more moons, a few more winters, and not one of all the mighty hosts that once tilled this broad land or that now roam in fragmentary bands through these vast solitudes will remain to weep over the tombs of a people once as powerful and as hopeful as your own.
But why should we repine? Why should I murmur at the fate of my people? Tribes are made up of individuals and are no better than they. Men come and go like the waves of the sea. A tear, a tamanamus [a religious ritualQEd.], a dirge, and they are gone from our longing eyes forever. Even the white man, whose God walked and talked with him, as friend to friend, is not exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We shall see.
We will ponder your proposition, and when we have decided we will tell you. But should we accept it, I here and now make this the first condition: That we will not be denied the privilege, without molestation, of visiting at will the graves of our ancestors and friends. Every part of this country is sacred to my people.
Every hill-side, every valley, every plain and grove has been hallowed by some fond memory or some sad experience of my tribe. Even the rocks that seem to lie dumb as they swelter in the sun along the silent seashore in solemn grandeur thrill with memories of past events connected with the fate of my people, and the very dust under your feet responds more lovingly to our footsteps than to yours, because it is the ashes of our ancestors, and our bare feet are conscious of the sympathetic touch, for the soil is rich with the life of our kindred.
The sable braves, and fond mothers, and glad-hearted maidens, and the little children who lived and rejoiced here, and whose very names are now forgotten, still love these solitudes, and their deep fastnesses at eventide grow shadowy with the presence of dusky spirits. And when the last red man shall have perished from the earth and his memory among white men shall have become a myth, these shores shall swarm with the invisible dead of my tribe, and when your children's children shall think themselves alone in the field, the shop, upon the highway or in the silence of the woods they will not be alone.
In all the earth there is no place dedicated to solitude. At night when the streets of your cities and villages shall be silent, and you think them deserted, they will throng with the returning hosts that once filled and still love this beautiful land. The white man will never be alone. Let him be just and deal kindly with my people, for the dead are not altogether powerless.
Basically the thread started about ugly mean-spirited anti-immigration racists. Yet instead of commenting on this we get feeble attempts to misdirect on a bunch of unrelated tangents which do not excuse the attitudes shown in the video.
I realize not all people who have anti-immigration viewpoints are as extreme as the kooks in the video, and no one is defending their rights to look stupid in public, and on camera. They make their cause look bad, just as the fringes of the left did at OWS.
Have a nice weekend everyone... :smilie_we
:stoned
ADG
dyna mo
03-01-2014 05:48 AM
Felt like doing a bit more googling over morning coffee, this time I chose how small pox was transmitted, hoping to perhaps recollect why I thought it was only transmitted via direct contact,
Quote:
THE DISEASE
How does smallpox spread?
A person with the smallpox disease is only contagious through spread of the fluids from the rashes or pustules. The greatest risk comes from prolonged face-to-face contact (6 feet or less, most often after 1 or more hours), with an infected person. This is particularly troubling for emergency workers because the patient may present with nothing more than a fever and sores inside their mouth that the emergency worker may or may not detect.
Indirect contact is less efficient at spreading the virus, but can still occur via fine-particle aerosols or inanimate objects carrying the virus.
Spread by contact with inanimate objects (e.g., clothing, towels, linens) would be less common, but possible.
Quote:
Transmission
Generally, direct and fairly prolonged face-to-face contact is required to spread smallpox from one person to another.
Quote:
How is smallpox spread?
Smallpox spreads from contact with infected persons.
Quote:
How is smallpox spread?
Smallpox is spread person-to-person through direct contact with respiratory droplets, aerosols, secretions, and skin lesions of an infected person. Direct and fairly prolonged face-to-face contact (less than six feet for more than three hours) generally is required to spread smallpox from person-to-person. Although less common, it can be transmitted through contact with contaminated clothing or bedding.
While smallpox could have been spread by diseased clothing or bed linens, it wasn't. It was spread by direct person-to-person contact.
That's why I recollected it that way.
TonyJ
03-01-2014 06:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapesoda
(Post 19997657)
uhummmm... Americans did NOT come here ... EUROPEANS came here :2 cents:
Your right, we went there and shit all over you :thumbsup
Grapesoda
03-01-2014 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dyna mo
(Post 19998591)
Yes, ADG already pointed out that obscure communication. Again, that doesn't reflect widespread strategy to use smallpox as a weapon and also doesn't matter, there had already been ~300 years of smallpox wiping out Indians prior to that correspondence.
very true.... the communication isn't that obscure in some areas, however I must point out I that study cultural migrations/societal impacts/the paths of technology/religious evolutions as a hobby, and have been since I was 10 years old. this is why I'm aware of the letter :2 cents:
Grapesoda
03-01-2014 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyJ
(Post 20000206)
Your right, we went there and shit all over you :thumbsup
yup and you've been blaming us ever since.... you speak german?
Grapesoda
03-01-2014 06:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendzilla
(Post 19999628)
My Great Grandmothers first name was morning, that was before hippies. She was full blood. On my dad's side. On my mothers side, my great grand mother was also full blooded,I couldn't pronounce her real name. But I remember her.
So pale faces, go home.
Here in LA, Mexican or Latinos make up over 50% of the population now, half the bill boards it seems are in spanish
number 1 radio stations in LA are in Spanish :2 cents:
dyna mo
03-01-2014 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grapesoda
(Post 20000215)
very true.... the communication isn't that obscure in some areas, however I must point out I that study cultural migrations/societal impacts/the paths of technology/religious evolutions as a hobby, and have been since I was 10 years old. this is why I'm aware of the letter :2 cents:
right on! The letter incident is, unfortunately, taught as fact. Did you happen to read the research I quoted dispelling the logic that the letter meant 1) the act was carried out and 2) it wasn't a strategy whatsoever? Thus making it obscure.
dyna mo
03-01-2014 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyJ
(Post 20000206)
Your right, we went there and shit all over you :thumbsup
Who went where and shit all over who?
In other words, what the fuck are you talking about?
