NETbilling and Bitcoin / biz thread

[NETbilling]

Hi All,

We are interested in a possible Bitcoin implementation into our gateway.

NETbilling would like to know how you would like to see it implemented (quick
payment confirmation vs. standard 6 block chains, receiving Bitcoin or
cash out in dollars, etc) as well as any other ideas that you may have.

All feedback is welcome.

Thanks, Mitch Farber

[blackmonsters]

I would not want it.

[TampaToker]

If a company reputable like yours can cash out in USD you guys will have a winner on your hands right out of the gate. I want to cash out 220 BTC trying to figure out best way to do this right now without getting screwed......

[Marcus Aurelius]

Can you implement dogecoins instead?

[edgeprod]

Hope this helps, Mitch -- this is how I'd want it.

• Account creation after BTC transfer, but if the 6-confirmation standard isn't met after X blocks, the account kicks back to a "your BTC didn't work out, try again or use an alternative payment method" screen on NETBilling.
  
• Ability to select whether payouts are in BTC or USD.
  
• Ability to pay in other currencies (DOGE, Lite, etc), pegged to the BTC pricing.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by TampaToker

If a company reputable like yours can cash out in USD you guys will have a winner on your hands right out of the gate. I want to cash out 220 BTC trying to figure out best way to do this right now without getting screwed......

I can do this for you, or buy them if you want. Get in touch.

[dyna mo]

I'm a netbilling customer.

I want to receive payment in bitcoins.

I want pre-generated unique bitcoin addresses (and the corresponding private key) that customers send payment to.

I do not want any bitcoin addresses stored on any server anywhere at any time.

[mineistaken]

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

Can you implement dogecoins instead?

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Not sure why that's amusing to you. The DOGE community is all over opportunities to spend their cons. You build a platform that takes DOGE, and they will spend them. It converts to BTC with a trivial transaction.

[JFK]

Good for you Mitch for getting in on this, just beware of the pitfalls

[Zuzana Designs]

Great news Mitch. This would be awesome

[DamianJ]

NETbilling are employing Franck as Vice President of BTC.

[arock10]

Fuck bitcoims

[Yanks_Todd]

very interesting

[DeanCapture]

Originally Posted by NETbilling

Hi All,

We are interested in a possible Bitcoin implementation into our gateway.

NETbilling would like to know how you would like to see it implemented (quick
payment confirmation vs. standard 6 block chains, receiving Bitcoin or
cash out in dollars, etc) as well as any other ideas that you may have.

All feedback is welcome.

Thanks, Mitch Farber

Hey Mitch, I just wanted to thank you for taking care of that issue when Naked.com made an unauthorized charge to my credit card a week or so back. I tried over and over to get them to fix it but it wasn't until I emailed you directly that it got resolved. Then they replied back that there was a "billing error due to a system error". Not sure what that means exactly and nobody took a moment to explain but at least the charge was reversed and I wanted to thank you for that. I would have thanked you earlier but after I gave you all my info, I never heard back from you on this so when I saw your post here, I thought I would thank you publicly.

--
Dean

[Lykos]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Hope this helps, Mitch -- this is how I'd want it.

• Account creation after BTC transfer, but if the 6-confirmation standard isn't met after X blocks, the account kicks back to a "your BTC didn't work out, try again or use an alternative payment method" screen on NETBilling.
  
• Ability to select whether payouts are in BTC or USD.
  
• Ability to pay in other currencies (DOGE, Lite, etc), pegged to the BTC pricing.

Nicely said, i agree and would like to see it !

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Hope this helps, Mitch -- this is how I'd want it.

• Account creation after BTC transfer, but if the 6-confirmation standard isn't met after X blocks, the account kicks back to a "your BTC didn't work out, try again or use an alternative payment method" screen on NETBilling.
  
• Ability to select whether payouts are in BTC or USD.
  
• Ability to pay in other currencies (DOGE, Lite, etc), pegged to the BTC pricing.

I'm surprised not keeping the bitcoins on a server is not a priority for you.


That's a deal-breaker for me.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

I'm surprised not keeping the bitcoins on a server is not a priority for you.

That's a deal-breaker for me.

I don't mind who has my address. I push them to a tumbler right away.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

I don't mind who has my address. I push them to a tumbler right away.

I think that's important information. I'd imagine most all Netbilling clients are not as bitcoin savvy as yourself and are also not necc. aware of the inherent risks in keeping bitcoin address(es) online.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

I think that's important information. I'd imagine most all Netbilling clients are not as bitcoin savvy as yourself and are also not necc. aware of the inherent risks in keeping bitcoin address(es) online.

Wallets? Sure. Addresses? No. Make your address as public as you'd like.

[ruff]

I like it. Good move Netbilling.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Wallets? Sure. Addresses? No. Make your address as public as you'd like.

I see where the confusion is, I included the word "addresses" in my quickly typed out comment above.

I meant to say:

I do not want any bitcoin stored on any server anywhere at any time.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

I see where the confusion is, I included the word "addresses" in my quickly typed out comment above.

I meant to say:

I do not want any bitcoin stored on any server anywhere at any time.

I see. What you may want is a two-factor transaction. You and NETbilling sign the transaction together with the third party (the customer). Then, when two parties agree the transaction is complete, the payment goes through.

As far as no bit coins being stored on any remote server, that's probably an unnecessary restriction (as well as one that comes with additional technical hurdles). When dealing with sketchy third parties, sure. This is NETbilling we're talking about -- if you trust them with your regular billing, you'd be trusting them with your crypto-billing.

[dyna mo]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

I see. What you may want is a two-factor transaction. You and NETbilling sign the transaction together with the third party (the customer). Then, when two parties agree the transaction is complete, the payment goes through.

As far as no bit coins being stored on any remote server, that's probably an unnecessary restriction (as well as one that comes with additional technical hurdles). When dealing with sketchy third parties, sure. This is NETbilling we're talking about -- if you trust them with your regular billing, you'd be trusting them with your crypto-billing.

well, I'm certainly skeptical of having my bitcoin online for even brief periods of time. IMO any place that transacts bitcoin is hanging a sign out stating "we're open for hacking!" It's the first thing I do when I complete a bitcoin transaction- move them offline right then and there.

Nevertheless, youare right, I trust Netbilling. I've worked with Ben and Eddie many times over the years. Ben has been there a very long time and worthy of my trust.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by dyna mo

well, I'm certainly skeptical of having my bitcoin online for even brief periods of time. IMO any place that transacts bitcoin is hanging a sign out stating "we're open for hacking!" It's the first thing I do when I complete a bitcoin transaction- move them offline right then and there.

Nevertheless, youare right, I trust Netbilling. I've worked with Ben and Eddie many times over the years. Ben has been there a very long time and worthy of my trust.

While you're correct in principle, exchanges carry large wallets of all sorts of coins, and I leave significant amounts in them all the time. When dealing with unknown sites developed with an uncertain amount of skill, you should never leave any coins hanging out there.

What you're talking about applies to sites like those, and to "online wallets," which are universally a bad idea. When it comes to a company as trustworthy as Mitch's crew, I see no reason to doubt that our coins would be well watched-after.

The most optimal solution in this regard is to do what the mining pools do: charge a small per-transaction fee for auto-withdrawls at certain thresholds. I have automatic withdrawals on all of my mining pools. They send the coins directly to my wallets without me having to do anything other than watch the balance rise.

I think it's important to look at the spirit of why people say things as well as what they're saying. A blanket "do not leave your coins online" statement is like "never open an attachment from someone you don't know": good advice for most, but it's situation-specific.

[NETbilling]

We appreciate all of the feedback and suggestions. Keep them coming.

Mitch

[NETbilling]

Originally Posted by DeanCapture

Hey Mitch, I just wanted to thank you for taking care of that issue when Naked.com made an unauthorized charge to my credit card a week or so back. I tried over and over to get them to fix it but it wasn't until I emailed you directly that it got resolved. Then they replied back that there was a "billing error due to a system error". Not sure what that means exactly and nobody took a moment to explain but at least the charge was reversed and I wanted to thank you for that. I would have thanked you earlier but after I gave you all my info, I never heard back from you on this so when I saw your post here, I thought I would thank you publicly.

--
Dean

Hi Dean,

It was my pleasure to help. I had the merchant handle it. I did reply to you as well but you just have not received it.

Have a great night,

Mitch

[Captain Kawaii]

I don't get it. Good luck with the FED audits.

[rowan]

Please use a real-world source when converting between USD and BTC. An exchange or mix of exchanges (averaged) where it is possible to buy or sell at that price. mtgox, which many use as a benchmark, is not the real world.

[blackmonsters]

Originally Posted by Captain Kawaii

I don't get it. Good luck with the FED audits.

[iSpyCams]

I'm a netbilling customer and I'd love to accept bitcoin through netbilling and I don't really have a preference on the details since I think it would be a very small percentage of transactions, so I would consider it experimental anyway.

[12clicks]

eh, not something I'll use. It's only a matter of time before the feds screw the whole system and make examples out of a few Americans.

[mikesouth]

Mitch...Nice Play man and I agree with edgeprod here this could be a winner for ya....Id use it.

[Due]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

eh, not something I'll use. It's only a matter of time before the feds screw the whole system and make examples out of a few Americans.

As far as I remember there have already been a couple of cases, they are focused on the illegal usage of botcoin.
I think it could be a great opportunity to increase sales and at the same time serve as a risk since no real presedence have been established as of yet.
If I was utilizing such a service I would want to ensure that my cc gateway and bitcoin gateway is 2 different entities and there is absolutely no comingling of funds, at least if it's a US entity. if it's EU or offshore I would be a bit more relaxed about it.
with most other payment methods, there is always a trail leading back to a point where someone have performed a know your customer check if it's required by law. not sure if that is the same for bitcoin which could put the processor at risk.. that's just ny 2 cents, I don't know a lot about bitcoin so I'm not really the most qualified person to speak about the subject

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by NETbilling

We are interested in a possible Bitcoin implementation into our gateway.

That's a ballsy move, bud, but if you were able to accept bitcoin, pay out in dollars, and do so while protecting yourself and the company you so tirelessly built, you would have a winner

Good luck with that and please let me know how it's coming along...

[BareBacked]

Originally Posted by NETbilling

Hi All,

We are interested in a possible Bitcoin implementation into our gateway.

NETbilling would like to know how you would like to see it implemented (quick
payment confirmation vs. standard 6 block chains, receiving Bitcoin or
cash out in dollars, etc) as well as any other ideas that you may have.

All feedback is welcome.

Thanks, Mitch Farber

Pretty sure some one just got arrested in the bit coin game. Seems high risk being us based and all.

[BareBacked]

Originally Posted by TampaToker

If a company reputable like yours can cash out in USD you guys will have a winner on your hands right out of the gate. I want to cash out 220 BTC trying to figure out best way to do this right now without getting screwed......

You seriously have $200k in bitcoin? wow. What did you get in at ?

[BareBacked]

Originally Posted by 12clicks

eh, not something I'll use. It's only a matter of time before the feds screw the whole system and make examples out of a few Americans.

yes

[srockhard]

Mitch I'm curious what kind of rates you would be offering for Bitcoins? Personally I don't think I'd want to pay any more than 1% as that is what I can process with the mainstream wallets and have the added benefit of them converting my Bitcoin to USD everyday if I choose. I know the other adult industry processors are from 10-15% of each transaction in USD so would you be able to compete with the 1% fee of the other options?

[Mediamix]

Originally Posted by srockhard

Mitch I'm curious what kind of rates you would be offering for Bitcoins? Personally I don't think I'd want to pay any more than 1% as that is what I can process with the mainstream wallets and have the added benefit of them converting my Bitcoin to USD everyday if I choose. I know the other adult industry processors are from 10-15% of each transaction in USD so would you be able to compete with the 1% fee of the other options?

Good question...

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by BareBacked

Pretty sure some one just got arrested in the bit coin game. Seems high risk being us based and all.

Not to break the circle-jerk, but he was arrested for money laundering related to illegal purchases on Silk Road. Just because he used Bitcoin put him in no greater risk.

[BareBacked]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Not to break the circle-jerk, but he was arrested for money laundering related to illegal purchases on Silk Road. Just because he used Bitcoin put him in no greater risk.

I do not know the details of this guys case. It is my opinion that the feds will not let this currency fly and people will not only loose money by end up in world of hurt.

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Not to break the circle-jerk, but he was arrested for money laundering related to illegal purchases on Silk Road. Just because he used Bitcoin put him in no greater risk.

Arrest yes, it needs bad stuff evidence. But to have the bank pull you or freeze your funds (just the bank, not any police or law), it is enough to have anything to do with bitcoin - according to lots of banks.
Most or all the adult sites use bitpay.com , not because they are unable to develop a bitcoin payment page (it is not complicated, needs to host bitcoind etc.), but because keeping separate entity and bank for bitcoin and fiat money.
As someone noted, I would be afraid to keep same bank and name for bitcoin and visa/mc, since banks are so easy to freeze funds, kick out whoever is known to have transacted bitcoins for whatever legal reason.

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by adultmobile

Arrest yes, it needs bad stuff evidence. But to have the bank pull you or freeze your funds (just the bank, not any police or law), it is enough to have anything to do with bitcoin - according to lots of banks

Can you cite specific banks, press releases, news articles, etc? If so, this is incredibly timely and relevant to many of us here. My bank (Wells Fargo) as well as brokerage assist me with moving in and out of different accounts, with full knowledge that it's for cryptocurrencies.

[NETbilling]

Hi,

We are in the early stages of looking at all possibilities. Obviously we will not get in to anything risky.

Mitch

[TampaToker]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

I can do this for you, or buy them if you want. Get in touch.

Going out of town for a few days will hit you up when i get back. Got you on skype all ready

[2MuchMark]

I'd be interested in seeing you implement it.

[adultmobile]

Originally Posted by edgeprod

Can you cite specific banks, press releases, news articles, etc? If so, this is incredibly timely and relevant to many of us here. My bank (Wells Fargo) as well as brokerage assist me with moving in and out of different accounts, with full knowledge that it's for cryptocurrencies.

Well specific to bitcoin exchanges there's lots of press about them having lost accounts, but this is generic bitcoin exchanges for 3rd parties no one knows what they do:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirh...bank-accounts/

Regarding non-exchangers, personal accounts, I know from some banking people that bitcoin transactions had to be "flagged" or reported, not remember the term it was used, this was for USA sometime in 2013. These practices, different for each bank, may change and standardise with the time.

Also note the fact you can't chargeback on bitcoin it can give also issues in ecommerce for refund i.e. user buy your service with bitcoin then asks refund in fiat cash, uses you as a money exchanger letting you money launder for him:

http://pando.com/2014/01/10/the-chal...ccept-bitcoin/

[edgeprod]

Originally Posted by adultmobile

Regarding non-exchangers, personal accounts, I know from some banking people that bitcoin transactions had to be "flagged" or reported, not remember the term it was used, this was for USA sometime in 2013. These practices, different for each bank, may change and standardise with the time.

Is there a source for this? I can say the Attorney General told me he was personally going to suck off every Bitcoin investor. Doesn't make it true.

Originally Posted by adultmobile

Also note the fact you can't chargeback on bitcoin it can give also issues in ecommerce for refund i.e. user buy your service with bitcoin then asks refund in fiat cash, uses you as a money exchanger letting you money launder for him

I'm unclear as to why Bitcoin not being able to be charged back is a BAD thing. Generally, high-volume merchants are honest, while consumers are not, when it comes to disputes.

If you choose to provide a refund, why would you give it in fiat currency? PayPal refunds get credited back to PayPal. This point doesn't make a ton of sense.

Current U.S. law is that Bitcoin IS money. The courts and the recent memorandum say that if you mine it (income) or invest in it (capital gains), just pay your taxes. It was pretty clear, at least for the foreseeable future.

Not attacking you specifically, but there are a bunch of people in this thread who apparently don't keep up with court decisions and regulatory advisories. They're shitting on a forward-thinking tool for adult that'd help a lot of people. Honestly, this is why people don't get excited about innovating for the half-wits in adult.

[edgeprod]

Incidentally, here's FinCEN's new advisory:

http://www.coindesk.com/fincen-bitco...-transmitters/

Awesome news for those of us with large mining investments and crypto holdings.