Guilty Verdict in First Ever Cybercrime RICO Trial - GoFuckYourself.com

Relentless · 12-10-2013, 02:03 PM

The penalties just went way up...

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/rico/

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 02:07 PM

so the dude gets one fake id in order to drive, and he is officially guilty of the entire site?

one way to fill a prison

faysjoint · 12-10-2013, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

so the dude gets one fake id in order to drive, and he is officially guilty of the entire site?

one way to fill a prison

The verdict means that Camez, a low-level crook with few assets, will be legally culpable for every crime committed by all 7,900 users of Carder.su, the identify theft forum where he bought stolen credit card information and counterfeiting equipment for use in his crimes.

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by faysjoint

The verdict means that Camez, a low-level crook with few assets, will be legally culpable for every crime committed by all 7,900 users of Carder.su, the identify theft forum where he bought stolen credit card information and counterfeiting equipment for use in his crimes.

Camez first fell into the trap in May of 2009, when he paid “Celtic” $330 to make him a fake Arizona driver’s license under an alias.

I guess one crime wasn't enough for those gumshoes

If the guy were to have killed some family, do you think those federal agents would have been responsible?

pornguy · 12-10-2013, 02:23 PM

I thought that Rico had some sort of proximity limitations to it.

Relentless · 12-10-2013, 03:13 PM

The government isn't going to chase down every new Silk Road knockoff or track down every bitcoin transaction... they are just going to make the penalties so severe that even a few convictions will make the risk far greater than any reward.

crockett · 12-10-2013, 03:51 PM

Yesterday, I read an article on MotherJones with a very accurate first two sentences...

"If all you've got is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail. And if police and prosecutors are your only tool, sooner or later everything and everyone will be treated as criminal.

Pretty good article is interested. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...militarization

While this guy did commit a crime, it seems more and more often, people are being over charged with excessive jail time.. We aren't becoming a police state we are already there..we are a for profit police state, where the longer the jail time is, the better it is for the shareholders...

crockett · 12-10-2013, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pornguy

I thought that Rico had some sort of proximity limitations to it.

Do you think with the govt we now have, that there are any real limitations that can't be twisted to do whatever they want to do?

L-Pink · 12-10-2013, 03:58 PM

He's a thief, fuck him. Good call.

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crockett

Yesterday, I read an article on MotherJones with a very accurate first two sentences...

"If all you've got is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail. And if police and prosecutors are your only tool, sooner or later everything and everyone will be treated as criminal.

Pretty good article is interested. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...militarization

While this guy did commit a crime, it seems more and more often, people are being over charged with excessive jail time.. We aren't becoming a police state we are already there..

getting a fake id to suddenly 'buying credit cards and machines', while the only contact was ever the undercover government operative

id be VERY curious to know who suggested buying the credit cards

i think that article might be illegal lol

JFK · 12-10-2013, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

getting a fake id to suddenly 'buying credit cards and machines', while the only contact was ever the undercover government operative

id be VERY curious to know who suggested buying the credit cards

i think that article might be illegal lol

sounds like a classic case of set up

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFK

sounds like a classic case of set up

makes me think of that 'pressure cooker' meth head outta Surrey here.

Once our opinion-writers started making declarations of 'please, release the police reports.. where did this methhead get the money for 3 brand new pressure cookers.. cause once we confirm the RCMP gave them this money...'

POOF!

case gone

crockett · 12-10-2013, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

He's a thief, fuck him. Good call.

He bought a fake I'd for a few hundred bucks.. Hardly worth 20 years in a federal prison, wouldn't yea think?

Best-In-BC · 12-10-2013, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

so the dude gets one fake id in order to drive, and he is officially guilty of the entire site?

one way to fill a prison

Yeah, thats how much sense there justice system makes

Best-In-BC · 12-10-2013, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

He's a thief, fuck him. Good call.

20 years, you cant be that goofy to think thats ok

L-Pink · 12-10-2013, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crockett

He bought a fake I'd for a few hundred bucks.. Hardly worth 20 years in a federal prison, wouldn't yea think?

"he bought stolen credit card information and counterfeiting equipment for use in his crimes"

Forget the "internet" instead imagine a mob run warehouse because that's where he got busted with a criminal starter kit. Fuck him.

Are you worried about being nailed for criminal activity? I'm not. So FUCK those that get caught in the process of committing a crime. Being as normal as me isn't setting the bar to high.

.

Just Alex · 12-10-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

so the dude gets one fake id in order to drive, and he is officially guilty of the entire site?

one way to fill a prison

Im sure he paid $350 for dl so he can drive his sick granny to church. Has every dumb ass on this planed joined this site or what? He was convicted of fraud and was serving 7 years. What do you think that was? My wild guess is - identity theft and cc fraud.

L-Pink · 12-10-2013, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Best-In-BC

20 years, you cant be that goofy to think thats ok

Why is a criminal on the internet less guilty than a criminal on the streets? I've never made the distinction so I'm not surprised at the sentence.

I'm just glad he got decades behind bars before he fucked me or someone I know. Why should you or I be upset at his career choice?

.

Jel · 12-10-2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L-Pink

"he bought stolen credit card information and counterfeiting equipment for use in his crimes"

Forget the "internet" instead imagine a mob run warehouse because that's where he got busted with a criminal starter kit. Fuck him.

Are you worried about being nailed for criminal activity? I'm not. So FUCK those that get caught in the process of committing a crime. Being as normal as me isn't setting the bar to high.

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Alex

Im sure he paid $350 for dl so he can drive his sick granny to church. Has every dumb ass on this planed joined this site or what? He was convicted of fraud and was serving 7 years. What do you think that was? My wild guess is - identity theft and cc fraud.

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Alex

Im sure he paid $350 for dl so he can drive his sick granny to church. Has every dumb ass on this planed joined this site or what? He was convicted of fraud and was serving 7 years. What do you think that was? My wild guess is - identity theft and cc fraud.

please

keep talking about your assumptions and how everyone else is stupid

its free and highly entertaining bullshit

however, my amusement aside, how does one go from buying a fake DL in phoenix, to buying credit card numbers and machines?

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 04:46 PM

obviously the guy is the correct colour for you to entirely stop thinking about the ramifications of working online, dealing with credit card transactions : )

if you could, you know, see how this charge can relate to what you do, id appreciate it.

L-Pink · 12-10-2013, 04:52 PM

Richard, he is a criminal. He is a low-life who planned to live off of fucking other people. Standing up for him is crazy. Relating to him because you both use computers is equally disturbing.

Fuck him he is a criminal that preyed on the misery/suffering of others. To bad I can't catch him robbing my house or would you then be sorry he got shot?

.

Just Alex · 12-10-2013, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

please

keep talking about your assumptions and how everyone else is stupid

its free and highly entertaining bullshit

however, my amusement aside, how does one go from buying a fake DL in phoenix, to buying credit card numbers and machines?

Its called googling, dumb ass. Put crooks name in google and its right there. Read page two of this document -counterfeit currency and debit/credit cards. Im sure there was no connection between fake dls and one of credit cards. None what so ever, he was going to drive miss Daisy around with fake license.

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/doc...?ts=1373385635

baddog · 12-10-2013, 04:54 PM

_Dick_ is a fool; not sure why you guys waste time trying to educate him.

Just Alex · 12-10-2013, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

obviously the guy is the correct colour for you to entirely stop thinking about the ramifications of working online, dealing with credit card transactions : )

if you could, you know, see how this charge can relate to what you do, id appreciate it.

Im sure your boss at Sextronix would love to see this fine young man paying for their porn with stolen credit cards. We all know how well this works for high risk merchants.
You are indeed a tool

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Alex

Its called googling, dumb ass. Put crooks name in google and its right there. Read page two of this document -counterfeit currency and debit/credit cards. Im sure there was no connection between fake dls and one of credit cards. None what so ever, he was going to drive miss Daisy around with fake license.

http://statecasefiles.justia.com/doc...?ts=1373385635

what does court documents filed in july show?

You have the googling part down.. now it's proving that the police in contact with this individual didn't suggest he buy the credit card numbers/printers that you seem to be having trouble with

Just Alex · 12-10-2013, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

what does court documents filed in july show?

You have the googling part down.. now it's proving that the police in contact with this individual didn't suggest he buy the credit card numbers/printers that you seem to be having trouble with

This document is an attempt to appeal his conviction. Can you put away the joint and write coherent sentences?
Baddog is right, no need to waste my time.

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 05:19 PM

i don't have the patience to write at a grade 3 level.

'In criminal law, entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense that the person would have otherwise been unlikely to commit.[1] '

simple stuff.

Just Alex · 12-10-2013, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Richard_

i don't have the patience to write at a grade 3 level.

'In criminal law, entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense that the person would have otherwise been unlikely to commit.[1] '

simple stuff.

Entrapment? What does entrapment has to do with this? He was arrested and had fake credit cards, currency and printer in his possession (didn't I tell you to read page two of the document dumbo?). He ordered fake drivers license from verified forum vendor who was already under arrest and federal agent was posing as him. Feds arrested the guy who was selling fake DLs and took over his account! This guy thought he was ordering from his bud and got busted.
Jebus, village idiot trying to talk like a lawyer now! "unlikely to commit" my ass

_Richard_ · 12-10-2013, 06:21 PM

grade 2 either.

Just Alex · 12-10-2013, 08:40 PM

Thats what I thought, chump.

BTW: Which law school did you go to?

Relentless · 12-11-2013, 06:04 AM

RICO is a law intended to go after people acting in concert. Essentially for situations like a mob hit where the Feds know a group of five people killed someone but the five of them each start claiming the others did it. With proof of the murder, proof all five were involved and no way to identify the trigger man, the Feds use RICO to make all five liable for the killing - and usually use a threat of RICO to get four of them to finger the fifth guy as the guilty one at trial.

Here we likely have a low level hood with zero connection to the site owner or any criminal conspiracy, beyond knowing where to find an illegal ID, taking the fall for all of it. He has nobody to roll over about, just a 20 year sentence for something that would have been a crime with a much smaller penalty.

It's not a question of whether he did something illegal, or if he should have gotten a penalty. It's a question of whether he should be responsible for every other criminal who used the site just by virtue of the fact that they all used the same domain to commit a crime.

If ten people buy a gun illegally from the same dealer (at different times and not knowing each other at all), and only one uses it to kill someone, are we now ready to arrest the other nine for murder?

Wizzo · 12-11-2013, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relentless

If ten people buy a gun illegally from the same dealer (at different times and not knowing each other at all), and only one uses it to kill someone, are we now ready to arrest the other nine for murder?

That's not what RICO is about, unless the dealer primarily sold his guns to solely commit crimes and the buyers were aware of that and chose to use him because of it.

Relentless · 12-11-2013, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizzo

That's not what RICO is about, unless the dealer primarily sold his guns to solely commit crimes and the buyers were aware of that and chose to use him because of it.

Wizzo, was great chatting with you, as always. We agree this guy was a dirtbag and could have been put away for the same 20 years without extending RICO... Extending RICO from my POV is much too big a danger when other more narrow rules would have worked better.

As you saw from our discussion... prosecutors could use this precedent to dragnet in a lot of people for very small infractions and hammer them with massive penalties. That is not a good way to run a legal system. We ought to have very narrow laws with massive penalties and very little gray area for selective enforcement or overzealous prosecutors.

This gets the right job done in ONE case but puts a very dangerous new tool in the toolbox of prosecutors who did not need it.

crockett · 12-11-2013, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just Alex

Entrapment? What does entrapment has to do with this? He was arrested and had fake credit cards, currency and printer in his possession (didn't I tell you to read page two of the document dumbo?). He ordered fake drivers license from verified forum vendor who was already under arrest and federal agent was posing as him. Feds arrested the guy who was selling fake DLs and took over his account! This guy thought he was ordering from his bud and got busted.
Jebus, village idiot trying to talk like a lawyer now! "unlikely to commit" my ass

He was arrested and had the goods.. That's fair and he should be convicted on those charges, in which he was. He was serving time in state prison for that crime.

The issue is he's not being charged just for that but for 50 million dollars in losses that the Feds claim happened due to members of that forum. He is being charged with crimes and for damages we all know he didn't commit. It's guilt by association and he shouldn't be charged under the Rico act.

It's like you getting hit with federal charges because affiliate program you are sending joins to is banging cards. You getting charged via the Rico act because you are a member of their affiliate program. While yes this guy committed fraud, who's to say this very thing couldn't played out right here on GFY..

You send a join to xyz program they bang the card to hell in back, the Feds step in and claim you are part of an organized crime ring.

ajrocks · 12-11-2013, 01:59 PM

I'm not sure why any internet business would be running out of the US at this point. It isn't an internet marketing friendly place.

Relentless · 12-11-2013, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajrocks

I'm not sure why any internet business would be running out of the US at this point. It isn't an internet marketing friendly place.

You have to go through a whole lot more steps to not be "running out of the US" than most people think. No place of business in the US, no income moved through the US, no servers in the US... and if the Feds want you bad enough they don't need to be 'right' to bring an action against you. A failed attempt to convict you on RICO grounds could still be made to cost you six figures in legal fees... and they know that.

mikesouth · 12-11-2013, 02:43 PM

I think we need to look at this from another angle

this opens some very scary doors

what if you are an affiliate who links to a site that bangs cards or launders money or the feds just decide is obscene (all rico predicates)

can you say oh shit.....

_Richard_ · 12-11-2013, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesouth

I think we need to look at this from another angle

this opens some very scary doors

what if you are an affiliate who links to a site that bangs cards or launders money or the feds just decide is obscene (all rico predicates)

can you say oh shit.....

then people would start asking why you are standing up for a criminal

then call you a village idiot

and make general fools outta themselves

one eyed eh?

mamaliga · 12-11-2013, 11:21 PM

everybody knows RICO is a bullshit away

Captain Kawaii · 12-12-2013, 12:18 AM

Don't be shady or affiliate with crooks. Then, most likely, no problems.
Be shady, enjoy the soup and the butt sex, courtesy of Uncle Sam, Inc.

12-10-2013, 02:03 PM	#1
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	Guilty Verdict in First Ever Cybercrime RICO Trial The penalties just went way up... http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/12/rico/ __________________ Website Secure \| Engine Food ICQ# 266-942-896

12-10-2013, 02:23 PM	#5
pornguy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Homeless Posts: 62,911	I thought that Rico had some sort of proximity limitations to it. __________________ PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic AmateurDough The Hottes Shemales online! TChicks.com \| Angeles Cid \| Mariana Cordoba \| MAILERS WELCOME!

12-10-2013, 03:13 PM	#6
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	The government isn't going to chase down every new Silk Road knockoff or track down every bitcoin transaction... they are just going to make the penalties so severe that even a few convictions will make the risk far greater than any reward. __________________ Website Secure \| Engine Food ICQ# 266-942-896

12-10-2013, 03:51 PM	#7
crockett in a van by the river Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 76,806	Yesterday, I read an article on MotherJones with a very accurate first two sentences... "If all you've got is a hammer, then everything starts to look like a nail. And if police and prosecutors are your only tool, sooner or later everything and everyone will be treated as criminal. Pretty good article is interested. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...militarization While this guy did commit a crime, it seems more and more often, people are being over charged with excessive jail time.. We aren't becoming a police state we are already there..we are a for profit police state, where the longer the jail time is, the better it is for the shareholders... Last edited by crockett; 12-10-2013 at 04:02 PM..

12-10-2013, 08:40 PM	#31
Just Alex Liv Benson to You, Bitch Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Maryland and WV Posts: 6,060	Thats what I thought, chump. BTW: Which law school did you go to? __________________

12-10-2013, 02:07 PM	#2
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 30,989	so the dude gets one fake id in order to drive, and he is officially guilty of the entire site? one way to fill a prison

12-10-2013, 03:58 PM	#9
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	He's a thief, fuck him. Good call.

12-10-2013, 04:46 PM	#21
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 30,989	obviously the guy is the correct colour for you to entirely stop thinking about the ramifications of working online, dealing with credit card transactions : ) if you could, you know, see how this charge can relate to what you do, id appreciate it.

12-10-2013, 04:52 PM	#22
L-Pink working on my tan Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Florida/Kentucky Posts: 39,151	Richard, he is a criminal. He is a low-life who planned to live off of fucking other people. Standing up for him is crazy. Relating to him because you both use computers is equally disturbing. Fuck him he is a criminal that preyed on the misery/suffering of others. To bad I can't catch him robbing my house or would you then be sorry he got shot? .

12-10-2013, 04:54 PM	#24
baddog So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: the beach, SoCal Posts: 107,089	_Dick_ is a fool; not sure why you guys waste time trying to educate him.

12-10-2013, 05:19 PM	#28
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 30,989	i don't have the patience to write at a grade 3 level. 'In criminal law, entrapment is when a law enforcement agent induces a person to commit an offense that the person would have otherwise been unlikely to commit.[1] ' simple stuff.

12-10-2013, 06:21 PM	#30
_Richard_ Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 30,989	grade 2 either.

12-11-2013, 06:04 AM	#32
Relentless www.EngineFood.com Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,697	RICO is a law intended to go after people acting in concert. Essentially for situations like a mob hit where the Feds know a group of five people killed someone but the five of them each start claiming the others did it. With proof of the murder, proof all five were involved and no way to identify the trigger man, the Feds use RICO to make all five liable for the killing - and usually use a threat of RICO to get four of them to finger the fifth guy as the guilty one at trial. Here we likely have a low level hood with zero connection to the site owner or any criminal conspiracy, beyond knowing where to find an illegal ID, taking the fall for all of it. He has nobody to roll over about, just a 20 year sentence for something that would have been a crime with a much smaller penalty. It's not a question of whether he did something illegal, or if he should have gotten a penalty. It's a question of whether he should be responsible for every other criminal who used the site just by virtue of the fact that they all used the same domain to commit a crime. If ten people buy a gun illegally from the same dealer (at different times and not knowing each other at all), and only one uses it to kill someone, are we now ready to arrest the other nine for murder? __________________ Website Secure \| Engine Food ICQ# 266-942-896

12-11-2013, 01:59 PM	#36
ajrocks Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: On Uranus Posts: 4,526	I'm not sure why any internet business would be running out of the US at this point. It isn't an internet marketing friendly place. __________________ SEO Strategy - Digital Strategy - Cannabis Lead Generation Skype aj.durden1

12-11-2013, 02:43 PM	#38
mikesouth Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: My High Horse Posts: 6,334	I think we need to look at this from another angle this opens some very scary doors what if you are an affiliate who links to a site that bangs cards or launders money or the feds just decide is obscene (all rico predicates) can you say oh shit..... __________________ Mike South It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

12-11-2013, 11:21 PM	#40
mamaliga la gente está muy loca Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: 1Gbps Posts: 1,322	everybody knows RICO is a bullshit away

12-12-2013, 12:18 AM	#41
Captain Kawaii So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,748	Don't be shady or affiliate with crooks. Then, most likely, no problems. Be shady, enjoy the soup and the butt sex, courtesy of Uncle Sam, Inc.