heres a thought why porn shooters are not working

Find me a porn shoot where I can just show up and shoot for $350 then leave and that rate would be great! I would be just a hired hand whoever the production manager is would be responsible for the money and legal issues.

The project where I decided not to take the low pay was 10-12 hours days they shoot 4 solos and a BG scene per model my profit was about $130 per set. They wanted to cut that in half that was a sign that it was time to move on. I knew several shooters that threw in the towel years before me that had the same issues. Every 5 years or so the budgets drastically change I assume since a lot of producer were bailing already when I moved out to LA in 2008.

Solos on average do not take 12 hours and with the exception they do not have a ton of other work with them.

And the extra booking hair location etc in my opinion doesn't justify an exorbitant hourly or day rate

Apart from salary, there's benefits and things like workmen's comp and liability insurance to pay for, paid vacation, health insurance, etc., etc., etc.--and then you need people to administer the benefits, so you end up creating an HR department. There's a whole lot of overhead incurred, so shooting in-house is not as cheap as you might think. And yes, you can probably find cheap photographers, directors, etc., but as Sam Goldwyn said, "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys."

One very successful company I worked with went from a headcount of about a dozen to over 140 after they brought production in-house. One day the owner woke up and realized it was ridiculous, fired all his production staff, and made them interview again for spots as independent producers.

Someone recently told me they're using a guy who does just that--show up and just shoot, nothing else--and they pay him $250/day. At that rate the guy couldn't afford to buy his own equipment anyway.

One of the truly irritating things about this business is that webmasters who sit behind computers all day have no idea of the problems and issues involved with production. And it seems most of them make no effort to learn about or understand the issues.

He definitely has roomates

4 solos and BG at my quality takes some time. I could definitely shoot some amateur content faster but those guys dont pay

Gotta got to mainstream shoot go fuck yourselves

I'll just say this- you never hear guys like Dean Capture, JustDaveXXX or myself complaining about a lack of work. And there's a reason for that. None of us are bragging about how reasonably priced we are either. It's not just about creative or technical skills, but business savvy as well.

A company owner complaining that he can't find any decent producers to work for peanuts should expect that the quality and reliability of those producer's work is worth only the peanuts you want to pay them. And usually not even that in by the time you factor in aggravation.

If you're a producer who has been dis-intermediated and replaced by your own clients or crew then you were lacking something in the first place, I'm not necessarily talking about talent as a photographer or director, but maybe business acumen or risk management strategies. I personally don't have all my eggs in one basket. There's no way a company could just hire some mope with a camera to replace me to recreate everything that my work encompasses.

I've been doing this since 1991 so I've seen more changes than most in this business and I'm always looking at the future and trying to figure all the angles and all the ways that I can improve myself and my photographic & technical abilities and add other services to make what I offer so unique and invaluable that company owners in North America, Europe and beyond are still hitting me up to pay top dollar for what I can produce.

The few times I did do some cheap productions because it was local or because the theme appealed to me or because I liked the client personally, it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth anyway since as many people in the service business will tell you, the people that pay the least are often the most demanding and unreasonable.

Both Dean and Dave went to work for Manwin. There are not too many gigs out there left for top tier shooters. Dave got his gig by winning the Brazzers contest (as he should have, cause he's a great producer). And Dean... well, he's Dean Muthafuckin' Capture.

Kudos to you for staying on top of your game, Jim. Not being in LA probably helps you tremendously. Do you think you'd be working as much if you were located in LA?

The reason I shoot overseas in various dodgy places is job security. But I stopped selling content to others a few years ago, as it was in my best interest to control the market some instead of making sure others had the hard to get content that made what I did valuable. I turned down an ungodly amount of work over the past few years, but I'm happy I did because 2013 should be a record year for me for online income. I had a slump for a while, but once I re-upped my game, I can only say that the business has tons of life in her yet and an insane amount of money is still out there for anyone who wants it.

That said, we could have a US dollar crash tomorrow and we're ALL out of a job.

Congrats! Nice to see.


.

this is all fluff talk.

bottom line is shooters and talent, agents, etc etc here in porn valley all have less work because of obvious reasons: free content and thieves.

its as simple as that.

Theyre paying 3k? I could shoot solo scenes of that quality for 500 bucks/day. All costs in (not including my personal taxes). Though I guess if youre so limited in your ability to find models yourself, and only goign through agencies, i can see you having to pay agency rates for a solo model but it shouldn't be much more than what i mentioned.. and even if it is, it surely wouldn't get you close to 'thousands'

As somebody who owns a company and produces, I know the costs and anybody paying thousands a day for anything is overpaying.

I travel from Vancouver down to California for all my shoots, i rent very nice homes and i if i wanted, i could pay fresh new models a few hundred for a days work and 200-300 for a location.

Currently pay them 500 a day because i can and the profit margin on a solo site is higher than any other projects in the industry. So I do not currently pinch pennies. I would feel more inclined if i was shooting a multi model site where I dont have to use the same model again. I pay 500 in order to keep them interested for a while.

It would have to take some real marketing geniuses to pay 3000 for a couple softcore scenes for a new site in 2013 and make sense of that for long term. I suspect GammaE will realize that doesn't make sense soon enough or bail on the project. I notice that site doesn't have much for traffic, has it even launched yet?

And 210 after taxes, is 65k a year job. Which isn't all that shabby for some. Especially since many people enjoy it. But do you not think 65k a year would be a great income if it was ontop of other revenue sources? Starts to become more appealing. You have to be business savvy as well.

You were the only photographer I have spoken to lately this year that has turned down the idea of a partnership based around your content which you would have received 50% of everything the paysite made, on top of 100 percent for the first few months (when it has its biggest months)

Which would have easily been balanced on top of a full time job. That would have been another 5-10k a month minimum...

When youre ONLY depending on those cheap jobs, maybe it seems less appealing, is all im saying

John Emslie shoots girls for Hustler/Met-Art, etc and while its starting to become not as worth it, he makes it worth it by bringing in the models for them and then entertains the idea of sites. All of a sudden, these gigs make sense, financially.

It sucks that you cant/wont say which major company did this to you, because I would refuse to book them my girls or work with them if you did; doing shady shit like this to people.
sounds exactly like what the earlier brazzers guys did to bobby manila.

Indeed. They're top guys I respect, that's why I mentioned them. You're right, there are not that many good gigs for shooters anymore, but I don't even really see any of what I do as a "gig". I have business relationships- sometimes long and ongoing ones- with various clients and customers as far as I am concerned. Most of the producers who aren't doing well or quit already weren't talented, creative or technical enough to shoot top notch content anyway. And in the few cases that were they weren't doing much to help themselves land gigs or cultivate work even if they had the skills, so they're effectively out of the running for multiple reasons.


Nowadays? Who knows. I used to go out there in the mid-1990's up to the year 2000 to shoot relatively big budget storyline feature movies in between recruiting new girls in strip clubs all over the East Coast of the U.S., Canada and South America to film pro-am and gonzo porn. But that was another era in the business and who knows how my career would have evolved over the years if I had. Other than the weather, California never really appealed to me anyway.


That's really awesome. I always like to hear of independent webmasters or small networks doing well.

2012 was my records year ... more than double previous years

which agency do you have?

The reason shooters get more for shooting porn than mainstream shooters get is because porn shooters are shooting PORN. S-E-X. Not toaster ovens (unless it's sex with a toaster oven).

We're anestethized to sex being around it all the time but for the 'average' person (including camera guys) gets a little squemish around naked bodies humping. ZOOM IN!! LOL

They actually dont make more than mainstream not even close.

Partnered with Jase on Syndicate Modeling

You are actually both right, they used to make more back when the industry with thriving, But now they certainly don't make as much because the industry has collapsed because of free content and thieves.

email sent, don't think I know Jase...

interesting thread..
i pay my mechanic $100 hr/ 8 hours a day - he has trade training and sets his own hours. The rate is market, do it yourself if you are competent.
same with adult.. get your hands dirty if you dont want to pay the rate for quality.

i have had days where i made +$2K in one day, but that was pre 2010 and it was a very very long day and not counting the post time to get shoots prepared for delivery.

I am guessing production is not likely to go inhouse, that would make the publisher liable for all the 2257 and other legalities, why would they do that - outsourcing keeps the troubles at bay.

http://www.webyoung.com/en/film/Tigh...Scene-01/50124

http://www.webyoung.com/en/film/Earl...Scene-01/50121[/QUOTE]

Nice shooting tex,


PS

How much should a singer get paid?
Lounge singer? or of top of the pops?

How much should a football player get paid?
Backyard to NFL?

How much should a CEO get paid?
Corner store to fortune 500?

Capitalism will sort it all out.

So you can shoot the 2 cinematic style solo scenes with 2 5D cameras a makeup artist and also do all the post production and color grading for the cost of the model LOL! Dont forget the agency fee also.

Where does the $400 for 4 hours of location $150 for makeup artist and $250 for another DSLR shooter that owns his own camera come from???? Do you have a 4 million dollar house that you can shoot at for free each time with a different location? I seriously doubt it man the model wouldn't take less than $500 for a solo shoot she shoots alot of BG scenes. Some top models wont even shoot solos as its not worth it to them or they would rather get fucked.

And FYI John shoots only a handful of times a year now. Porn is his part time gig.

FAIL!

Yeah I heard that story straight from Bobby after it happened to me. He was able to sue them since he had a contract. I wasn't as lucky. I won't name drop though its not my style.

It definitely helps to be in Florida where production is a little cheaper and the models will absorb some of the cost by shooting cheaper. I could find tons of models out here in Texas but I think it will be much harder to convince them to start porn when there is not enough work for them to make it a career nowadays.

I was shooting for Babes.com for Manwin in the beginning I shot over 30 scenes. When the condom law came up they told me they they were going to shoot their hardcore out of LA and mostly in Europe. I am sure Dean and Jay Allan got priority since they are under contract and I was told the reason they stopped ordering was not because of me but because they are shooting way less in LA and they already had 2 guys under contract. It was a great experience but kinda tough to compete with those guys their lights probably cost more than all of my gear LOL. And Dave, well we all know this guy have probably 500k worth of equipment. Good luck competing with that when the shooting porn for the newbie will only afford him an entry level consumer HD camera. You can bet guys like Jay, Dean, and Dave don't grow on trees it took years of profit, investment, & thousands of scenes fund their operations. Think about this how about the new guys ever going to be able to invest that kind of dough and attain that level of production? Those guys were around when porn was making great money and with their contracts they can maintain that status as long as Manwin renews their contracts. You can bet a lot of their competitors are not doing as well or already quit the business. It will be interesting to see how this plays out future. My guess is companies are going to have to buy all the gear and have guys like Dean to train cheap shooters to do what he does (my experience with Dean is he is pretty secretive about his techniques) I don't blame him though the company that had me train other shooters used that as an opportunity to save money by their own gear and get some younger cheaper guys shooting for them. I bought my gear from shooting solo sites which use to pay very well and it was very attractive for the model as well. I talked to buddy Mutt about shooting more solo sites and he is offering half of what he did back in 2007. That 50% less for the model and 50% less for the photographer. It is definitely not worth it to shoot for Met Art anymore they will approve a model for you to shoot a day of photo sets then only offer to buy a set to try the girl on the site before offering to buy the rest. They use to buy all the set unless the shoot was really bad. I shot 2 days of Met Art set of Malena Morgan and spend a ton getting the hottest sets I could only to be told we will buy one set and see how she does. After she became ranked #1 2 days later they quickly bought all of her sets and even signed her to an exclusive contract. So orginally they just wanted one set and turned around and bough all 7 sets. After that I feel its a huge risk to shoot for them with no guarantee that they will even buy it. Had she not been top ranked I would have not even broke even. Back in the days you could just sell them to magazines but that biz is dead also.

I just wanted to say thanks for the inside look on that aspect of the business and the current state of things. It isn't often that you get that without a lot of bullshit and you just laid it out there as it is. Very eye opening, worse than I expected really. Good luck to you I hope things are working out in mainstream.

I have done a partnership before when Shap still owned Twisty's but it was not good for me or the model (Shyla Jennings) we ended up getting out of the contract when it was up. I walked away and sold my 50% partnership to Spunky Cash for 30k so I ended up doing well on that one but I NEVER did well on a partnership. It is hard to trust people in this biz as well as you probably already know.

For those of you who don't know Jay Rock, his GFY persona stands in stark contrast to his personality and professionalism (lack of) on set. Bro you failed here for very good reasons, all of which are your own doing.

BAM!!! And there it is...

I've been reading this thread and wondering if anybody was going to bring this up.

Over the years I've shot for a variety of clients with budgets from complete shit to what I consider pretty high. It didn't take long for me to realize that the people with shit budgets are usually the biggest pain in the ass to deal with AND they are quick to panic if there is any sort of production delay.

Quite a interesting thread. I do have to say jayrock has come a long way content wise. You shoot some quality stuff.

I agree. Shooters work on a per scene or day rate. Never by the hour that I've ever heard of.

I already addressed this.

just breaking down the day rates to per hour and Its a bit crazy to see many out of work and average adult shooters think they should work only for 100+ an hour


And comparing that per hour rate to jons in other industries makes it look even more ridicilous.

I would love to make $100 per hour free and clear. in 2001 cost me $200 to earn $1000, now it cost $800 to earn $900

What are you talking about, why are you asking for the costs, I mentioned them in my response to you. What I find models for and what i pay for locations. Lets say 300 for model + 250 for location.

I didn't know what YOU pay for models but i said, even if i went that route instead of finding them without the agency, it still wouldn't get to thousands.

So lets add in 500 for the model instead finding my own (instead of 300), that brings it to 700 total for the day. How much is the agency fee, lets see what that brings it to? Still dont think 3000 is overpaying?

And why are you asking about a 4 million dollar house?

Im suggesting what I do my shoots for, i do not need a 4 million dollar house to create high quality content, i've shot at 1 million dollar houses that i get for apparently a fraction, if youre spending thousands in a day for a couple solo scenes

I have shot 400 photo sets and a few hundred videos in the past couple years, im well aware of the costs. The costs dont change because i decide to do cinematic style.

Maybe try renting cheaper places out of the most expensive areas? I learned hair and makeup, i have only needed to do it with one girl because most know how to do their own hair, i dont think you need the 80s curls and waves like dean/twistys/vintage playboy has in all their content (even if i didn't, thats still only 150)

To be honest, im not sure how people spend what they do on shoots but i definitely think it has to do with them spending to the budget given.

So lets say i even wanted to splurge and get a MUA/Hair Stylist which i dont think is always needed, and went the route of an agency, which i dont think is always needed, 850. They pay me 3000?

I think any photographer who thinks thousands isn't over payment is trying to make up for the lack of work

And actually porn isn't johns part time gig, he makes all his money from this industry. He was just smart enough to team up with somebody so he could see money from this without doing much work so whenever he shoots, its bonus money, hes got partnerships in many paysites as you know.

My point was that he made it so that a job made sense for him, as it was extra money. Thats being business savvy. When you rely on cheap jobs as youre only source of revenue, sure. But when theyr extra, they start to look like they arent necessarily underpaying jobs

Clearly lying, this does not exist today

Well you should reconsider those options as a photographer because shooting for people as a hired gun, isn't even close to your best option. Unless youre doing it as extra revenue

John makes very good money from this industry and doesn't lift a finger. As do basically all photographers who are partners.

And Im not sure how you handled that project involving 3 people, which is 1 person too many but it most definitely wasnt' the right way.

That attitude is very much like a model, not logical whatsoever. If you fail, what you do is you come back and actually do your homework. You do it right.

Why i say it reminds me of a models , because i face that nonstop. I have come across sooo many models who have had websites fail because they were convinced by the wrong people they could launch a website with them, by the time somebody who can make them money approaches them, they have a bitter taste in their mouth and no longer interested. So theyre giving up 3-4k a month for years because the last guy screwed them, on top of that, all their content is already out there. Just not a logical decision whatsoever

So you are gonna talk shit without revealing yourself that's pretty chicken shit

dean? doubt that Jay, never heard dean say a bad word about you

My last model (playboy + twistys model), i just shot for 1700. in a beautiful home in cali. location cost was 2000 after taxes. 6 days.

Mutt can vouch for that.

Add in a hair and makeup artist. That cost would have been 900 for 6 days.

4600 cost , 18,000 paid.

And I still stand by a hair/makeup person isn't always needed. But maybe the company is making it mandatory

Not the Dean you are thinking of. Dean Capture is a good guy. Anyways I am not sure that is who I thought it was but most likely.

Softcore nudes. A content shooter for hire isn't going to make a living shooting softcore nudes.

Sorry yes, youre right, that model was open leg but no masturbation, that doesn't get the cost from 4600 to 18,000 though. lol

And yes i can find models for the same cost that masturbate.

Autumn + Hailey both masturbate and would accept the same pay.

But I know you are skeptical i can continue to find them of that high quality that will work for under 500 a day. Just wait and see. ;)

What theyre shooting for isnt' even a solo site (based around one model), you know very well multi site models do not need to be of the same quality level.

But anyway thats totally away from the point i was trying to make, the point was, its a gross budget for a couple solo vids.

And you dont need to make a living from one single type of project

Nice to have money coming in from solo sites. Maybe I just need to find some more solo site girls. Finding them sure isn't easy though.

Bingo!
Or when you rely on high paying jobs you will still have issues.
I know guys in mainstream that make crazy day rates and are always broke cause then they dont work for months and pass on decent paying work.

and from my experience I haven't seen this mentality with many other professions other than photographers

WOW!! Good thread!!


Thanks for the complements guys.


1st off, my favorite comment ever, that I use the most, I got from Jay Rock a while back was:

'You cant even rent my camera body at Samys for that rate"

Then I called up Samys for a rental price and he was way on point with that comment.



The competition in porn is very high. And in LA its even tougher. All of the guys still shooting are good, real good.


Jay Rock is No-Joke really good. Super high end shooter. When Jay gets a good budget, he kills it. But when you start stripping his budget down, he can't turn out the same quality of content. Cinematic DSL is an easy 10-12 hour day.


So what do you take away from the budget 1st? Make up artist? Location? PA? 2nd Camera man with DSLR? Food for set? Try booking around the agents? Taking away any one of the things, will fuck with the quality of the end product Seriously.




Then you got a shooter like DWB. This guy is at the top of his game at what he does. Don't try fucking with this guys rate. your just going to piss him off. I don't care what you think he pays talent. And don't think you are going to come into Thailand and do what he can do at his quality level. Just prey you don't go to jail for 2 years for trying. You for sure will if you have not shot there before.


I remember being at a Kings game with DWB and asked him about what he does to get his shoots done. DWB told me in confidence, because I reassured him that I never plan on shooting Lady Boys in Thailand. After he told me what it takes, I had that much more respect for what he actually does. Mad respect!! And I love DWB!! Great dude!! Class Act!!


Another funny thing DWB told me was: "Clients are always telling me they want my pics to look like Vince Voyer's pics" He further told me, "I would to see Vice Voyer 1st come to Thailand 2nd, get his gear into a hotel room without getting arrested".


I was laughing my ass off!! But at the end of the day, DWB is right. He is a serious specialist at what he does, and he should get paid for it. And fuck anyone trying to fuck with his rate!!!!




Then you got Jim Gunn. One of the most OG dudes in this business. Super solid shooter, gets 1st time girls all day long, good quality content, and has one of the most impeccable business reputation in porn. Cant say enough good things about him with out sounding like a Homo. Love this guy!! (No Homo)


And you have the man, myth the legend Dean Capture: Well he's Dean Capture, Nuff said.


Also rounding out this group of shooters and new to GFY, but not new to porn is Stills By Allen. This guy, I shit you not, he shoots 25 times per month, Stills and some video. He is one of the absolute best Photogs working today!! Not kidding, no bullshit! He turns down a lot of work because he is always booked out. Check him out. StillsByAlan.com


Aln is one of my closest friends in the Biz. We have been friends for about 9 years. We talk daily and he is one of the key reasons why my Photo Game is where its at.



You also got Mat Dalton, BM Bradley, Nick Malilo, Bare Footsie and a few others that slip me right now.



All of the guys are solid and when they ask for a rate, its because thats what they charge. Why? Shit! Because there are a lot of costs that Clients don't factor into the charge.



Example: I had a scene with a particular Porn star, got through the whole day. Stills, dialogue, story, hardcore stills and 17 min. of sex footage. Girl complained that her Butt was hurting, etc. Im not going to force the issue. I don't do that. But with location, crew, time, time that this model wasted, dicking around etc, i was into the shoot $1200.


So i rescheduled the scene, for 3 days later, the girl no-showed me morning of. Had to pay an additional $200 location kill. I worked that day for free and ate $1400 that I will never get back. This is one story out of 5+ i get per year.


At the end of the day, I don't bill my client for "my problems". I can't. But thats one of the big risks we as content shooters take when we go to work.


When you as a client hires one of us, you will be getting a quality product shot in a timely manner, not the problems we incurred to make that content. And trust me, we all have fucked up stories. All of use!!!



Now, do I work with lower budgets? Yes I do. Not a problem, but don't expect it to look like a Brazzers or Babes scene. Why is that? Outfits, Nice locations, extras, specialty props, all cost money.

I work with a bigger budget, but that budget is itemized in detail. My client sees where every dollar goes before I get my wire.



And if you think I can shoot where I shoot and skimp, on the all of the extras that the script asks for and that make the scene, so I can make a few extra dollars, I can't!!! Because all of the directors that shoot where I shoot don't skimp! They are all fucking Studs!! These guys are ringers and we are always in competition with each other. The competition keeps us all sharp and on point.




So if you are looking for a shooter, a quality shooter with a reputation, serious experience, and you are unhappy with the quote, ask for a rough break down of costs. But I will tell you this: For a more complex shoot, and not solos, Shooters will want to make at least $500-$1000 clear before taxes for a 10-12 hour day. And don't think that there is no time put into a shoot days before with scheduling, booking, location scouting, prop shopping, wardrobe shopping, etc.



This is mostly around LA, because thats all I really know, but others from other spots will have similar experiences.


Also keep in mind, If you cancel a scene same day with a name girl with an agent for what ever reason, the shooter has to pay a $200 Kill fee. So that $200 comes out of the shooters pocket. That cost doesn't get passed to the client.



Just a little insight to what we as content shooters deal with. A bit long, but some good info.



Just Dave

becoming more common every day