2257 ruled constitutional

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  • baddog
    So Fucking Banned
    • Apr 2001
    • 107089

    #1

    2257 ruled constitutional

    http://www.xbiz.com/news/166308
  • AsianDivaGirlsWebDude
    Purveyor, Fine Asian Porn
    • Jul 2004
    • 38323

    #2


    Baylson also said that the statutes, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2257 and 2257A, are constitutional under the Fourth Amendment, except for in one regard ? "the allowance of inspections at the residences of producers, without prior notice, cannot be justified on this record."
    Can someone expand on this, regarding what the ramifications are for inspections at the residences of producers?

    The most important points I took from the article are that the last inspection was 2007, the FBI dismantled their 2257 inspection program in early 2008, and the DOJ has shown no interest in resuming inspections in 6 years.



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    • JFK
      FUBAR the ORIGINATOR
      • Jan 2002
      • 67373

      #3
      saw that as well, lot more tax dollars to be wasted

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      • crockett
        in a van by the river
        • May 2003
        • 76818

        #4
        I think everyone assumed it was unconstitutional even the FBI and DOJ hence why the never bothered to do any inspections
        In November, you can vote for America's next president or its first dictator.

        Comment

        • mikesouth
          Confirmed User
          • Jun 2003
          • 6334

          #5
          The ruling indicates that inspections at "bona fide residences of producers" are unconstitutional without a warrant.

          businesses are not
          Mike South

          It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

          Comment

          • mikesouth
            Confirmed User
            • Jun 2003
            • 6334

            #6
            bad for porners...good for mom and pop sites
            Mike South

            It's No wonder I took up drugs and alcohol, it's the only way I could dumb myself down enough to cope with the morons in this biz.

            Comment

            • Barry-xlovecam
              It's 42
              • Jun 2010
              • 18083

              #7
              From my point of view this is a lose-lose with a sweetener added of the Fourth Amendment warrantless searches unconstitutional ONLY at personal residences.

              This ruling makes a difference in warrantless inspections allowed of commercial businesses and private residences. Pornography is regulated free speech now.

              This implies regulated art or other "offensive opinion or matter."

              One argument of the Fourth Amendment complaint was upheld and other arguments were not. Appealing on the First Amendment complaints might be possible but it is just buying time.

              Most of the major webcam producers are not based in the United States and are not subject to this law. I think that the issue of the "secondary producer" might be litigated but the outlawing of gambling promotion and advertising in the United States does not bode well for any litigation success on the issue of secondary producers.


              Last edited by Barry-xlovecam; 07-18-2013, 10:29 AM.

              Comment

              • Grapesoda
                So Fucking Banned
                • Jul 2003
                • 46238

                #8
                Originally posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude




                Can someone expand on this, regarding what the ramifications are for inspections at the residences of producers?

                The most important points I took from the article are that the last inspection was 2007, the FBI dismantled their 2257 inspection program in early 2008, and the DOJ has shown no interest in resuming inspections in 6 years.



                ADG
                when the cops are your location inspecting dicks they'll check the 2257

                Comment

                • firequartz
                  Confirmed User
                  • Jan 2005
                  • 125

                  #9
                  I have to confess, every time I try to delve into the details of 2257, I get a whopping headache .. so can anyone capsulize what all this means for affiliate webmasters?

                  Thanks.
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                  • LAJ
                    Gingerific
                    • Jun 2001
                    • 5567

                    #10
                    Additional coverage here: http://www.ynot.com/content/119021-d...itutional.html
                    YNOT.com - The original industry resource
                    email jay at ynot dot com or skype LAJConsulting

                    Comment

                    • signupdamnit
                      Confirmed User
                      • Aug 2007
                      • 6697

                      #11
                      So I take it they are probably going to start enforcing secondary producer again and all these tubes with "user submitted" content are going to be immune from it while the people who are legitimate will have to deal with it?

                      You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                      Comment

                      • GetSCORECash
                        Confirmed User
                        • Mar 2008
                        • 5527

                        #12
                        As a result, plaintiffs do not face a realistic threat of ?irreparable harm? ? due to an inspection ? at any point in the foreseeable future. A judge must take a deep breath before enjoining the nation?s top law enforcement officer from doing something that the Department of Justice has shown no interest in doing for the last six years.

                        Under these circumstances, the court believes it would be an abuse of discretion to enter an injunction against the attorney general.
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                        • Qbert
                          Confirmed User
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 813

                          #13
                          The implication for secondary producers that work from home could be quite significant. If I understand this correctly, since it's also a primary residence, DOJ would need a search warrant in order to do a 2257 inspection in such a situation. Search warrants require probable cause and also limit the scope of the search.

                          Comment

                          • Barefootsies
                            Choice is an Illusion
                            • Feb 2005
                            • 42635

                            #14
                            Originally posted by mikesouth
                            bad for porners...good for mom and pop sites
                            Should You Email Your Members?

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                            Comment

                            • Barry-xlovecam
                              It's 42
                              • Jun 2010
                              • 18083

                              #15
                              bump for a real business thread

                              Comment

                              • xxxjay
                                Tube groupie.
                                • Aug 2002
                                • 13482

                                #16
                                It would be great if they defined the tubes as "producers". I'd love to see them sweat a 2257 inspection.

                                We were the 2nd inspection by the FBI back in the day and passed with no issue.

                                I'm all for it.
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                                Comment

                                • signupdamnit
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Aug 2007
                                  • 6697

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by xxxjay
                                  It would be great if they defined the tubes as "producers". I'd love to see them sweat a 2257 inspection.

                                  We were the 2nd inspection by the FBI back in the day and passed with no issue.

                                  I'm all for it.
                                  Even if they required records to be kept on the "uploader" that would be a huge win for many obvious and not so obvious reasons. It would be even better if they required the uploader to provide a name and address for record purposes along with reasonable measures to verify it.

                                  You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

                                  Comment

                                  • PornoMonster
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Mar 2003
                                    • 2257

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by signupdamnit
                                    Even if they required records to be kept on the "uploader" that would be a huge win for many obvious and not so obvious reasons. It would be even better if they required the uploader to provide a name and address for record purposes along with reasonable measures to verify it.
                                    Just add an ID card to all the "Babes" section at Freeones, and link every gallery to that... LOL

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                                    • Barry-xlovecam
                                      It's 42
                                      • Jun 2010
                                      • 18083

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by xxxjay
                                      It would be great if they defined the tubes as "producers". I'd love to see them sweat a 2257 inspection ...
                                      The tubes are defined as "secondary producers" now. Anyone who "publishes sexually explicit content" is a "producer".

                                      But 18 USC §2257 is a US law and does no good in Hong Kong or Ukraine. US Laws, unless reciprocal or their recognition by a foreign government are meaningless outside of US territory.

                                      As an example, §2257 is in direct violation of the EU and Canadian Laws (and others) on privacy unless a person whose records are kept by a business give EXPLICIT permission for those records to be divulged to A NAMED PARTY without a warrant or subpoena from that business' domicile court. e.g., the national jurisdictional courts.
                                      Last edited by Barry-xlovecam; 07-19-2013, 10:39 AM.

                                      Comment

                                      • Joe Obenberger
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • May 2003
                                        • 466

                                        #20
                                        This is my take on what's most important in Judge Baylson's curious Opinion.

                                        http://www.xxxlaw.com/articles/baylson.html

                                        No, there's nothing in the Opinion ever requiring warrants.

                                        Start reading at page 63 of Judge Baylson's Opinion and start reading closely at page 68. He's all across the boards and rambles his way into a finding that no other court has come close to. He says 2257 Inspections don't need a warrant, and while he is not touching the statute, he's concerned with the Regulations. He won't expressly determine them to be facially unconstitutional. He says it works with advance notice when the records are in a bona fide home, not a warrant. He then seems to excuse custodians who go on vacation and don't comply with the Regulations that require availability for inspection - and the presence of the custodian - at least 20 hours per week - at page 69. But he never directly deals with the Regulations insofar as they require those 20 hours per week. And he doesn't begin to explain why the situation in the home, in that respect, should be different in an office or studio. This ramble around the issues is honestly difficult if you are looking for a logical, coherent judicial determination. The words that come to mind are "peculiar" and "curious" with regard to what he has to say about home inspections. The word "wrong" comes to mind about the whole document readily.


                                        Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. . . Restraint in the pursuit of Justice is no virtue.
                                        Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964

                                        Comment

                                        • Markul
                                          Likes Pie
                                          • Dec 2007
                                          • 12403

                                          #21
                                          Would this setup mean you cannot be inspected for 2257?

                                          You live somewhere in the US.
                                          You place your servers outside of the US.
                                          You place the main company that owns the rights and - more or less - everything else, outside of the US.
                                          You operate out of a daughter company of the main company based in the US? (since you need to pay bills in the US and get salary, I presume you need to be incorporated in the US).

                                          Purely theoretical of course, since I am not actually in the US. Neither is any of my companies.
                                          But.... I pulled out...

                                          Comment

                                          • Barry-xlovecam
                                            It's 42
                                            • Jun 2010
                                            • 18083

                                            #22
                                            Joe, I didn't have the benefit of reading the memo thanks for posting it
                                            I stand corrected

                                            at page 70 footnote21

                                            When the Supreme Court developed the administrative search doctrine, it contemplated searches at commercial premises rather than at residences. See Donovan, 452 U.S. at 598-99 (“The greater latitude to conduct warrantless inspections of commercial property reflects the fact that the expectation of privacy that the owner of commercial property enjoys in such property differs significantly from the sanctity accorded an individual’s home, and that this privacy interest may, in certain circumstances, be adequately protected by regulatory schemes authorizing warrantless inspections.”). Accordingly, one could argue that the administrative search doctrine is not applicable to homes at all, and that any inspection at a residence should preceded by a warrant. This Court does not go so far. It finds the administrative search doctrine does apply to Section 2257 inspections at residences, because “producers” of sexually explicit depictions are still part of a “closely regulated” industry even if they choose to store their records at home. But the Court finds the reasonableness of an administrative search should be informed by the type of premises being inspected. When it is a bona fide residence, the place at which privacy expectations are highest, additional protections may be justified. The Court concludes such protections – in the form of advance notice – are required here, given the lack of evidence at trial as to the need for unannounced inspections and the considerable testimony about the burdens that no advance notice places on producers who maintain records at homes
                                            The issue is "sexually explicit depictions are still part of a “closely regulated” industry." So, porn is a legitimately regulated industry -- that is an interesting point in itself ... I know of no other “closely regulated” industry whose only regulation is in the Title 18 criminal code but maybe they will regulate bank robbers too -- you have to keep records of your bank robbery plans for inspection, (1) No information or evidence obtained from records required to be created or maintained by this section shall, except as provided in this section, directly or indirectly, be used as evidence against any person with respect to any violation of law.

                                            The whole law is ludicrous but there is little to be done in the courts now but good luck getting the Congress to repeal it and the President of sign the repeal bill.

                                            I think given the current political climate, and barring its radical change: The principle tenants of statutory construction of §2257 are cast in stone.
                                            Last edited by Barry-xlovecam; 07-26-2013, 06:04 AM.

                                            Comment

                                            • Joe Obenberger
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • May 2003
                                              • 466

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Markul
                                              Would this setup mean you cannot be inspected for 2257?

                                              You live somewhere in the US.
                                              You place your servers outside of the US.
                                              You place the main company that owns the rights and - more or less - everything else, outside of the US.
                                              You operate out of a daughter company of the main company based in the US? (since you need to pay bills in the US and get salary, I presume you need to be incorporated in the US).

                                              Purely theoretical of course, since I am not actually in the US. Neither is any of my companies.
                                              Markul - you really need to consult with a lawyer. If for any reason you don't feel comfortable contacting me, call Larry Walters or Greg Picchionelli.


                                              Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice. . . Restraint in the pursuit of Justice is no virtue.
                                              Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964

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