Grapesoda

Amid all the heated cross-currents of debate about the National Security Agency's massive surveillance program, there is a growing distrust of the Obama administration that makes weighing the costs and benefits of the NSA program itself hard to assess.

The belated recognition of this administration's contempt for the truth, for the American people and for the Constitution of the United States, has been long overdue.

But what if the NSA program has in fact thwarted terrorists and saved many American lives in ways that cannot be revealed publicly?

Nothing is easier than saying that you still don't want your telephone records collected by the government. But the first time you have to collect the remains of your loved ones, after they have been killed by terrorists, telephone records can suddenly seem like a small price to pay to prevent such things.

The millions of records of phone calls collected every day virtually guarantee that nobody has the time to listen to them all, even if NSA could get a judge to authorize listening to what is said in all these calls, instead of just keeping a record of who called whom.

Moreover, Congressional oversight by members of both political parties limits what Barack Obama or any other president can get away with.

Are these safeguards foolproof? No. Nothing is ever foolproof.

As Edmund Burke said, more than two centuries ago: "Constitute government how you please, infinitely the greater part of it must depend upon the exercise of the powers which are left at large to the prudence and uprightness of ministers of state."

In other words, we do not have a choice whether to trust or not to trust government officials. Unless we are willing to risk anarchy or terrorism, the most we can do is set up checks and balances within government ? and be a lot more careful in the future than we have been in the past when deciding whom to elect.

Anyone old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, when President John F. Kennedy took this country to the brink of nuclear war with the Soviet Union, may remember that there was nothing like the distrust and backlash against later presidents, whose controversial decisions risked nothing approaching the cataclysm that President Kennedy's decision could have led to.

Even those of us who were not John F. Kennedy supporters, and who were not dazzled by the glitter and glamour of the Kennedy aura, nevertheless felt that the President of the United States was someone who knew much more than we did about the realities on which all our lives depended.

Whatever happened to that feeling? Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon happened ? and both were shameless liars. They destroyed not only their own credibility, but the credibility of the office.

Even when Lyndon Johnson told us the truth at a crucial juncture during the Vietnam war ? that the Communist offensive of 1968 was a defeat for them, even as the media depicted it as a defeat for us ? we didn't believe him.

In later years, Communist leaders themselves admitted that they had been devastated on the battlefield. But, by then it was too late. What the Communists lost militarily on the ground in Vietnam they won politically in the American media and in American public opinion.

More than 50,000 Americans lost their lives winning battles on the ground in Vietnam, only to have the war lost politically back home. We seem to be having a similar scenario unfolding today in Iraq, where soldiers won the war, only to have politicians lose the peace, as Iraq now increasingly aligns itself with Iran.

When Barack Obama squanders his own credibility with his glib lies, he is not just injuring himself during his time in office. He is inflicting a lasting wound on the country as a whole.

But we the voters are not blameless. Having chosen an untested man to be president, on the basis of rhetoric, style and symbolism, we have ourselves to blame if we now have only a choice between two potentially tragic fates ? the loss of American lives to terrorism or a further dismantling of our freedoms that has already led many people to ask: "Is this still America?"

_Richard_

who wrote an entire article based on the idea all this started under Obama?

How racist do you have to be.. or is it blind stupidity?

bronco67

Pretty well thought out. Who wrote this?

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Grapesoda

wow... you're really dumb ass aren't you?

'Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon happened ? and both were shameless liars. They destroyed not only their own credibility, but the credibility of the office.'

here is the RACIST

Grapesoda

T. Sowell

atom

I'm really surprised that people are not more outraged about this. I can't believe how complacent society in the US has become. Very sad indeed.

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Grapesoda

it's a hard call for sure.. the NSA isn't listening to conversations, just tracking who calls who... not really a big deal actually IMHO. say they track 100 calls from Nevada to some shit whole country filled with terrorist and grab the phone number called...put a watch on that cocksucker and get a track on that phone in sandland and do the guy with special opps after they track all his creepy friends and stop some misguided dipshit from say, blowing up a marathon... I'm all for it... the only issue I can see is that this administration is totally morally corrupt.. other than, that go for it... fuck those assholes

Rochard

The NSA was created in the 1950s; It's nothing new. Our intelligence agencies do what they do very quietly and rarely admit their success in public. By their very nature, their entire purpose is to break the laws of other countries.

Right now there is a flap in the UK about them bugging meetings for the G8 Summit. You think? We use the diplomatic cover of our embassies across the world to tap other governments and their diplomatic missions - since the cold war. It's naive to think otherwise. All governments do this.

The guy who was the CIA agent in Argo wrote a book years ago about what the CIA really does. It's not James Bond, but it's a great read anyhow. In one story they rigged up a car with fake seats so they could video tape the Russian embassy in Turkey so they could bug it.

To date we have yet to have any proof that anything illegal was done. All of this is done with warrants, and all of this is aimed at people outside of the United States.

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dyna mo

i have no problem believing that terrorist ops have been thwarted as a result of the nsa snooping globally and domestically.

but if they want us to buy into the snooping, then we need to be told of its successes. i'm not talking about revealing super secret snooping shit, just let us the fuck know in general it's working.

more importantly, many feel the system can function entirely well and good if the data stays with the providers and not just all grabbed and stored by the nsa snoops.

this makes sense to me, and apparently it is being touted as happening:

NSA considers ending collection of data on Americans' phone calls
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news...one-calls?lite

_Richard_

what does the NSA have to do with the Obama Administration?

You believe that it is not possible to be racist while black?

Are YOU stupid?

DWB

But that's the thing, where does it end? 2013 they are just seeing who calls who. Or so they say. By 2018 they are listening to every call, reading every email, sms, and watching every video chat. By then Americans will say exactly what is being said now, "we'll it's a hard call, they are only listening to everything we do, at least they are not bugging our bedroom and making us get RFID implants to track all of our movements." Then by 2022 they are making RFID chip implants mandatory, and so on and so forth. All of this stuff is a VERY slippery slope.

purecane

you guys are way off. my brother works for the NSA. they are listening to EVERYTHING. in this country and abroad. even Canada Richard. ;)

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Grapesoda

reading comprehension issues hommy?

_Richard_

yea i saw that, and yea we are fully aware everything gets routed through the US

why our government doesn't consider that a problem is beyond me, but i just work here

Grapesoda

Dallas soon as we started sucking Muslim cock our 'freedoms' started sliding of the plate... right now there is a organization affiliated with the Muslim brotherhood screening every film and TV show made in hollywood, their job is to approve how Muslims are portrayed in the media.... you'll notice that are very seldom 'Muslims terrorist' in films any more...

in fact when Obama gave his last speech he comment that we need to understand the Islamic issues, maybe like we went out of our way to understand fucking Hitler?

then Obama mentions terrorism as issue to be looked at in the US, every fucking terrorist action Obama spoke of, or mentioned was NOT an attack by Muslims.. ... and you're worried about the NSA?????

Grapesoda

right and he told you all the 'secret info' on the down low right?

_Richard_

that seems to be the issue, yes.

Dvae

Mosques Excluded from Government Surveillance

Why am I not surprised.

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Rochard

All of this information is being collected no matter what. Facebook and Gmail and Skype and ICQ track every conversation you ever have, while your ISP keeps records too. Your cell phone company tracks your location via cell towers, as well as everyone you talk to.

The government doesn't store this information, but everyone else does. This is already happening; It's been happening for a long time back when Ma Bell was running the nation wide phone system. The only difference is it's become a lot easier to transmit vast amounts of information.

Everyone is making this out to be like the federal government is reading the emails of hundreds of thousands of Americans. This isn't the case. Facebook gave out the number of ten thousand over the past five years, and that the vast majority of these aren't from the federal government but instead from local police departments - Missing persons cases and other related investigations.

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Jel

Dvae

Richard you should use some of your pornslinger money and buy yourself a clue.

“The President has put in place an organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before in life,” Representative Maxine Waters told Roland Martin on Monday. “That’s going to be very, very powerful,” Waters said. “That database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it’s never been done before and whoever runs for President on the Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They’re going to go down with that database and the concerns of those people because they can’t get around it. And he’s [President Obama] been very smart. It’s very powerful what he’s leaving in place.”

Maxine Waters is the U.S. Representative for California’s 43rd congressional district, and previously the 35th and 29th districts, serving since 1991. She is a member of the Democratic Party.

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dyna mo

you crack me the fuck up man!

weeks later and you're still trolling with this one.

_Richard_

that is really bizarre

onwebcam

You are being told. Once every few months some retarded kids get arrested for being guilable enough to go along with a plot created by law enforcement and then thwarted by them.

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Rochard

I am in fact not calling Maxine a liar. In fact, I had never heard of her until just now.

But what exactly is she talking here? She says "the President has put together a database". Could we be talking about Social Security? They have huge databases on all of us. The IRS does too. In fact, your above quote fails to mention the term "501c4" which Roland mentions. 501c4 is a IRS law.

This video is a conversation about tax laws, not the NSA. Way to twist things to your own agenda.

(Speaking about databases and Social Security, a few years back my taxes were rejected by the IRS. It seems that Social Security made a change to how they handle their data base, and anyone who had a suffix of "III" to their last name was affected. My name is Richard W. Buss III, but Social Security listed me as "Richard W. Buss 3". Seems the IRS cross references the Social Security database to ensure you are who you say you are. [Surprise!] I had had to go down to Social Security to have them change my name in their database.)

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dyna mo

ummmmmmmm, duh.

of course i am being told you fucking nitwit.

so are you, brainiac.

jeez, of course it's based on what we are told, i don't live in the nsa bldg, i don't have super secret snooper id, i don't have an underground tunnel access to inside the beltway.

jfc.

Dvae

Your are messing with me right? You can't be this clueless.

When you read this statement “That database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it’s never been done before "

Shes not talking Social Security although that may be included. Do you not understand the meaning of everything on every individual?

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Rochard

I am not clueless at all. Are they talking about the NSA or the IRS? If they are talking about the NSA and a database there why bring up 501c4, which is a tax law?

When she says ?That database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it?s never been done before ", what exactly does this mean? Social Security tracks you from the day you are born, the IRS tracks every cent you make, and the State government tracks me through DMV and know about every traffic infraction I've ever had. The FBI also tracks crimes, arrest records, and even has a DNA database. Yes, the government has databases on it's citizens. It'a always tracked us - ALWAYS - from the cradle to the grave.

Is this what she was taking about?

Did she come out and say and that the federal government has records of every phone call every American has ever made? Nope. Did she come out and say that the federal government reads every email you've ever sent? Nope. Did she come out and say that the government has a copy of every message you've ever sent via Facebook? Nope. Did she say the federal government keeps records of your location from cell tower data? Nope.

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atom

That was my exact point with original post. Where does it end?

I do in fact have a huge problem with what they are doing now. One can always make the argument - well, by logging calls the NSA was able to thwart a terror plot that might have prevented this or stopped a cell from maybe doing that. . At what cost to our personal liberties though?

I personally do not trust our Gov no matter who is in office. By letting the Government get away with this, you know god damn well they are going to keep pushing the envelope to see how far they can take it.

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JP-pornshooter

ha ha, ok here is the TRUTH
give us sport, give us beer, give us guns, give us drugs, give us food, give us money
and we will let you do whatever you want.

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onwebcam

NSA Disruption of Stock Exchange Bomb Plot Disputed

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...tock-exchange/

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dyna mo

atom bombbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb



there's hope for americans right? we put our foot down on a national id just 8 years ago.

the guburment is yapping about backtracking on gathering the data prior to needing it.


maybe, right? it sure seems like there's quite a bit of public upset about this, cept for the rochards, but he's just messing with everybody here.

onwebcam

That or they will just seal the leaks and continue on business as usual.

NSA Implementing 'Two-Person' Rule To Stop The Next Edward Snowden
http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygree...dward-snowden/

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dyna mo

the best outcome is that it would be a combination of both. there are people that want to kill us, we've established a baseline of billions of dollars spent on snooping that out. those businesses that are contracted to do the snooping won't just go away.

all of our communications are digital and are open for recording via the latest tech.

Rochard

Yeah... Because our intelligence agencies tell us everything they know.

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Joshua G

sowell can defecate on obama all he wants.

but its not like the voters have a lot of choice. if sowell thinks liberty woulda been better protected by mccain or mittens, he should take up gardening, as thinking is not his forte.

_Richard_

must be funny sitting in prison while the very government that put you there is currently committing those same crimes

atom

Freakfish! Some of the stories we could tell ;-)

My prediction is the US will go through some pretty big changes in the next 15-20 years. The million dollar question is, will they be for the better or worse?

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Rochard

This video... Was posted last February... Long before the NSA question came up. She was talking about taxes and the IRS.

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PhoneSexKing

This is possible, but it is backwards and reactionary logic.

If the USA simply stops interfering with the rest of the world's affairs the "terrorist" acts against the USA will dry up. Simple as that. Taxpayers in the USA can save some money, and perhaps restore the rights they have lost.

dyna mo

the problem now is the president/gov said after boston bombings the real and imminent threat now is domestic terror.

Grapesoda

and according to Obama it's not from islam

Rochard

No problem. We'll just let al qaeda do whatever it wants. Any time it wants to do a few billion dollars to one of the world's largest and most important cities in the world and kill a few thousand Americans for no fucking reason, we'll just walk away. No harm, no foul.

I don't the stupidity of this. After Japan attacked Pearl Harbor Admiral Yamamoto said "We have awakened a sleeping giant and have instilled in him a terrible resolve". Did anyone really think the United States was going to allow an attack like 9/11 to take place without massive repercussions?

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dyna mo

yeah al queerda is way out of hand to the point we have to spend billions and billions of dollars and collect comm data of each other:::::::::

terrorist attacks on u.s. since 2010–present[edit]


Boston Marathon bombings on April 15, 2013

2010 March 4: 2010 Pentagon shooting occurred on March 4, 2010, when John Patrick Bedell shot and wounded two Pentagon police officers at a security checkpoint in the Pentagon station of the Washington Metro mass-transit system in Arlington County, Virginia.

2010 September 1: Discovery Communications headquarters hostage crisis: James J. Lee, armed with two starter pistols and an explosive device, takes three people hostage in the lobby of the Discovery Communications headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland before being killed by police. After nearly four hours, Lee was shot dead by police and all the hostages were freed without injury. Lee had earlier posted a manifesto railing against population growth and immigration.[62][63]

2012 August 5 Wisconsin Sikh temple shooting: 6 killed, 3 injured including a police officer who was tending to victims at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Wade Michael Page age 40 killed himself after being shot by police.[64] The shooting is being treated by authorities as an act of domestic terrorism.[65][66] While a motive has not been clearly defined Page had been active in white supremacist groups.[64]
2013 April 15: Boston Marathon bombings: T



yay, meanwhile our infrastructure is a d- and failing, our schools are a clusterfuck and we dig deep into our pockets to bail out banks.

yeah, your way makes sense rochard, good thinking

Rochard

So you are saying no need to make any attempt to protect ourselves, to prevent the next attack? Shouldn't we at least... Try? No matter how many billions it costs?

I'll agree with you that our infrastructure is failing. Every time it snows on the east coast and people go without power, I have to chuckle. I lived on the east coast, on top of a huge mountain; We were always the last to be visited by the plow and nothing moved until then. We were always prepared at all times to spend two - six days without power and unable to leave the house. Setting aside the fact the it's sheer stupidity to live in a place that where you are trapped in your own house for days at a time, did it ever fucking occur to anyone to put all of the power lines underground? I live in a brand new community, and everything is underground. We don't have power outages. (Then again, we also don't have snow.)

Schools... People love to bitch about schools. What did we have then that kids don't have now? And have you been to a school recently? When I was a kid in school we had desks, pencils, papers, books, and chalkboards. On a good day we had an overhead projector that one fifth of the time needed a new light bulb. Thirty kids for each class too. Now classrooms have TVs and computers in every room. No need for an overhead projector - The teach has a camera mounted directly above her desk where she can scribble on a huge pad on her desk and and picked up by the projector. Not good enough? Fine, the teach can hook up a laptop to the same projector - wireless. STILL not good enough? If my kid so much misses an assignment I get an email the same day, and I can look up all of the grades online too. And when the kids run into problems with homework, they can get the answers online via the school's tutorial program. I compare my kid's school to my school, and they are a lot better off now. The problem isn't schools, it's parents who fail to pay attention.

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dyna mo

not at all, i am saying our priorities are backwards. i get that people want to kill us. hell, i am otr here saying it's what humans do best- kill each other.

nevertheless. i do think we bring an amount of it onto ourselves- we went there, they didn't come here. even though that's only part of it.

but obviously, the ratio of defense spending to everything else is way backwards.

4 terror attacks in 4 years, we spend billions to safeguard against that. that's insanely stupid budgeting.

dyna mo

i am the only person in my family who is not in academia, i hear on a daily basis what's happening in k-12 and higher ed when i talk to fam.

pimpmaster9000

yes yes you are all in DANGER!

the other 95% of the world does not have a borg/klingon army that punishes other countries as soon as US paranoia flares up but don't let that stand in the way of your fear and hate of non americans

you fucking north korean! seriously LOL... you brainwashed, paranoid, micro penis, double standard, "supreme leader" mercenary...

ah you gotta love US double standard...other countries must not arm up, but the US does to "prevent attacks"

"land of the brave and land of the free"

shit I hope the world arms the fuck up and you end up isolated like north korea with your klingon culture....

dyna mo

shut the fuck up.

PhoneSexKing

It's called "national defense" for a reason, and it has a purpose.

The USA participates in national OFFENSE.

Plus, perhaps the USA shouldn't have funded al qaeda to begin with. Every "terrorst" attack upon the USA has had involvement from some US or US funded group.

The USA was warned by many other nations that an attack upon pearl harbor was imminent. The USA stood down and let it happen to use it as a pretext for more military action.

The USA has tons of blood on its hands. "Land of the free refills, home of the cowed."