The Facts about Guns and Violence - GoFuckYourself.com

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 05:47 PM

"In 1981, the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times." According to Reason, after a few days of crime after crime, "London police are now looking to the New York City police for advice.""

?In 1973, American civilians owned approximately 122 million firearms and the homicide rate was 9.4 per 100,000 population. In 1992, American civilians owned over 220 million firearms and the homicide rate was 8.5. Over a twenty-year period, firearms almost doubled while the homicide rate fell by 10 percent.?

Why does Washington, D.C., a district whose laws make it illegal to buy, possess, transport or acquire a handgun, experience the highest per capita murder rates in the nation?

"Professor John R. Lott Jr. ? author of "More Guns, Less Crime" ? spent years researching the claim that high murder rates resulted from gun ownership. He concluded, "There is no international evidence backing this up. The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's.""

Interlude · 02-24-2003, 05:52 PM

Lott's book is actually very good reading and makes a very interesting point - legal gun ownership reduces crime, and always has no matter where it's been tried. Debating it with most anti-gun folks, however is pretty useless, as most are invincibly ignorant - they don't know, won't believe, and cannot be swayed.

Gman.357 · 02-24-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interlude
Lott's book is actually very good reading and makes a very interesting point - legal gun ownership reduces crime, and always has no matter where it's been tried. Debating it with most anti-gun folks, however is pretty useless, as most are invincibly ignorant - they don't know, won't believe, and cannot be swayed.

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 06:01 PM

Guys, these debates are getting very boring!!! We're all agreeing.

What, have all the liberals, gone to bed???

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman.357

Gman.357 · 02-24-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
Guys, these debates are getting very boring!!! We're all agreeing.
What, have all the liberals, gone to bed???

Don't worry. Joe Sixpack will be around soon. I can smell his trail of bullshit already.

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 06:25 PM

Yeah, where is that anal loving aussie?? I haven't seen any of his anti-American rants all day!

Quote:

Originally posted by Gman.357

Don't worry. Joe Sixpack will be around soon. I can smell his trail of bullshit already.

CDSmith · 02-24-2003, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interlude
Debating it with most anti-gun folks, however is pretty useless, as most are invincibly ignorant - they don't know, won't believe, and cannot be swayed.

"invincibly ignorant".... that's good. "Blissfully" fits in there too. Nice one.

lightswitch · 02-24-2003, 06:33 PM

Anybody else pissed off that i cant get 30round clips for my .22 riffle? & the fact that in California you can own clips larger than 10 rounds, but you cant actually put more than 10 rounds in them?

What about the ATF, gun control laws are enforced by alcohol consumption, & the resulting taxes. Allowing politicans to con peopel into thinking they will be safer with less guns, while making new laws that dont cost tax payers $$$ because they are enforced by a goverment agentcy that brings in BIllions in alchol and tobacco tax revenues. Many people think the ATF monitors alcohol quality, when in fact they do nothing but collect rediculious taxes (3.5 Billion)

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 06:55 PM

I thought you were in Butte, MT, not California. My Dad is actually from Butte. You still live there or are you in Cali?

Quote:

Originally posted by lightswitch
Anybody else pissed off that i cant get 30round clips for my .22 riffle? & the fact that in California you can own clips larger than 10 rounds, but you cant actually put more than 10 rounds in them?

What about the ATF, gun control laws are enforced by alcohol consumption, & the resulting taxes. Allowing politicans to con peopel into thinking they will be safer with less guns, while making new laws that dont cost tax payers $$$ because they are enforced by a goverment agentcy that brings in BIllions in alchol and tobacco tax revenues. Many people think the ATF monitors alcohol quality, when in fact they do nothing but collect rediculious taxes (3.5 Billion)

lightswitch · 02-24-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
I thought you were in Butte, MT, not California. My Dad is actually from Butte. You still live there or are you in Cali?

I have a house & bussness in Butte, But im in CA now. I spend mroe & more time in CA alot more opurtunites here, & i was born & rasied here. @ the same time i just cant leave butte behind its an increadble place. when did your dad leave butte? where in butte did he live?

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 07:06 PM

shit, he left a long time ago, like when he was in H.S. We went to Butte about 15 years ago to check out the house he grew up in, but I can't even remember what part of Butte it was in.

Quote:

Originally posted by lightswitch

I have a house & bussness in Butte, But im in CA now. I spend mroe & more time in CA alot more opurtunites here, & i was born & rasied here. @ the same time i just cant leave butte behind its an increadble place. when did your dad leave butte? where in butte did he live?

Brad Mitchell · 02-24-2003, 07:08 PM

Jeremy, have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

Brad

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 07:10 PM

I've seen parts of it, but I haven't seen it in its entirety yet. Is it on video yet?

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire
Jeremy, have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

Brad

Joe Sixpack · 02-24-2003, 07:12 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/02/24/sn....ap/index.html

lightswitch · 02-24-2003, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/02/24/sn....ap/index.html

See even Snowballs kill people.

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 07:32 PM

I say BAN SNOWBALLS. If it weren't for snowballs, she'd still be alive!!!

They don't allow snowballs in Tahiti, and they haven't had a snowball killing ever.

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/02/24/sn....ap/index.html

Serge_Oprano · 02-24-2003, 07:34 PM

Joesixpack is an idiot...

this is your chart, punk:

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 10:47 PM

C'mon Joe....are you going to stand up for yourself or what......them are fightin' words.

Quote:

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano
Joesixpack is an idiot...

this is your chart, punk:

RATBOY · 02-24-2003, 10:53 PM

Had to post my gal's opinion here:

<img src="http://www.petitelilflower.com/index2_files/gun.jpg">

Gman.357 · 02-24-2003, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
C'mon Joe....are you going to stand up for yourself or what......them are fightin' words.

In order for Joe Six to stand up, he must first remove the stick from his ass.

Interlude · 02-24-2003, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RATBOY
Had to post my gal's opinion here:

Awww, that just warms the cockles of my heart

Joe Sixpack · 02-24-2003, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
C'mon Joe....are you going to stand up for yourself or what......them are fightin' words.

Serge isn't worth responding to.

He can't spell or understand English grammar. He's almost illiterate.

He should be pitied.

JeremySF · 02-24-2003, 11:44 PM

Oh, give the guy a break. English isn't his first language. At least I hope it's not. Isn't it Russian or Bulgarian?

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack

Serge isn't worth responding to.

He can't spell or understand English grammar. He's almost illiterate.

He should be pitied.

Gman.357 · 02-25-2003, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack

Serge isn't worth responding to.

He can't spell or understand English grammar. He's almost illiterate.

He should be pitied.

Illiterate?? Serge made more money over the years than your whole country probably has flowing through it's economy. We should all be that illiterate.

Is that your program in the sig you're flying by the way?

RATBOY · 02-25-2003, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interlude
Awww, that just warms the cockles of my heart

JeremySF · 02-25-2003, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RATBOY

lightswitch · 02-25-2003, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RATBOY
Had to post my gal's opinion here:

<img src="http://www.petitelilflower.com/index2_files/gun.jpg">

Fucken nice!

MetaMan · 02-25-2003, 01:24 AM

" guns dont kill people,

people kill people "

Joe Sixpack · 02-25-2003, 05:00 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/02/...ing/index.html

MattB · 02-25-2003, 05:23 PM

Guns = Cool. No guns = not cool.

Now, about Butte, MT. I use to live 80 miles away from Butte. What a dump. The only reason to go to Butte is the 24 hour city wide drunk-fest every St. Patricks day.

FATPad · 02-25-2003, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Joe Sixpack

Serge isn't worth responding to.

He can't spell or understand English grammar. He's almost illiterate.

He should be pitied.

Weak.

Make fun of Serge cuz he's an ass, not cuz English is his 2nd or 3rd language.

The guy's not dumb and he's not illiterate. With so many reasons to make fun of Serge and insult him, stooping to making fun of his English skills is lame.

Joe Sixpack · 02-25-2003, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Weak.

Make fun of Serge cuz he's an ass, not cuz English is his 2nd or 3rd language.

The guy's not dumb and he's not illiterate. With so many reasons to make fun of Serge and insult him, stooping to making fun of his English skills is lame.

Only stooping to his level.

If you scroll up you'll see he called me an idiot.

I'd take him on in an IQ test anyday.

Lane · 02-25-2003, 06:07 PM

guns don't kill people, bullets do

The Truth Hurts · 02-25-2003, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RATBOY
Had to post my gal's opinion here:

<img src="http://www.petitelilflower.com/index2_files/gun.jpg">

Damn, she should sell the gun, and use the cash as a down payment towards getting some titties.

Libertine · 02-25-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RATBOY
Had to post my gal's opinion here:

<img src="http://www.petitelilflower.com/index2_files/gun.jpg">

Nice tits

Libertine · 02-25-2003, 06:44 PM

For the sake of argument:

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
"In 1981, the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times." According to Reason, after a few days of crime after crime, "London police are now looking to the New York City police for advice.""

3.5 times the English rate. That says enough. So America is doing better than before, the rate is still 3.5 (!!!) times as high.

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
?In 1973, American civilians owned approximately 122 million firearms and the homicide rate was 9.4 per 100,000 population. In 1992, American civilians owned over 220 million firearms and the homicide rate was 8.5. Over a twenty-year period, firearms almost doubled while the homicide rate fell by 10 percent.?

Nobody ever claimed firearms are the only factor that plays a role.
In 1500, the infant mortality rate was 60%, and crack use was 0%. In 2000, the infant mortality rate was much less than a tenth of what it was in 1500, yet crack use was WAY higher (duh). So, apparently crack use prevents infant mortality?

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
Why does Washington, D.C., a district whose laws make it illegal to buy, possess, transport or acquire a handgun, experience the highest per capita murder rates in the nation?

Why do the US, which allow guns, have a murder rate 3.5 times as high as that of the UK, which doesn't allow guns? Yet another example of your flawed logic.

Quote:

Originally posted by JeremySF
"Professor John R. Lott Jr. ? author of "More Guns, Less Crime" ? spent years researching the claim that high murder rates resulted from gun ownership. He concluded, "There is no international evidence backing this up. The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's.""

And, surprisingly, another example of the same flawed logic - not looking at other factors than gun ownership.

There is one simple fact: 25000 deaths in the US are caused by firearms each year (accidents and murders).

The Truth Hurts · 02-25-2003, 07:12 PM

You DO realize that 99.9% of all ststistics, are completely MADE UP, or are "adjusted" to favor whatever side is making the argument, right?

Gutterboy · 02-25-2003, 07:21 PM

Jeremy -

The fact that you only compare crime rates to England handily refutes your notions about gun restrictions increasing crime. If gun banning increased crime, there should be high crime rates in EVERY COUNTRY which bans guns, not just England.

So why just use England as an example? Because using most other countries with tight gun control for crime rates comparisons would force you to come to the opposite conclusion than the one you want.

Look at that skyrocketing Japanese crime rate for example. Obviously they are in dire need of guns to help control things..

JeremySF · 02-27-2003, 12:14 PM

A couple of simple points here:

1) If we banned guns in the U.S. tomorrow do you think we?d eliminate gun violence? No way. You might get guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, but I guarantee criminals wouldn?t have a problem getting guns.

2) Like it or not, gun ownership is a right protected by the American constitution. Guns will never be banned in this country. That being said, wouldn?t the anti-gun lobby be better served finding other ways to curb violence rather than pursuing an exercise in futility? Likewise, I encourage pro-lifer?s to do the same. Rather than spending their time protesting and harassing clinics, why don?t they spend their time working to reduce abortion and teen pregnancy? Of course they won?t, because like the monolithic left, they are of the same breed. Deep down they don?t really want to solve any problems. They just want a cause to pursue that makes them feel morally superior to those that disagree with them.

Quote:

Originally posted by punkworld
For the sake of argument:

And, surprisingly, another example of the same flawed logic - not looking at other factors than gun ownership.

There is one simple fact: 25000 deaths in the US are caused by firearms each year (accidents and murders).

Scootermuze · 02-27-2003, 01:34 PM

Vermont requires no permit to carry a concealed weapon..

Vermont has one of the lowest crime rates in the country..

Miss Novette · 02-27-2003, 01:53 PM

With all due respect, it is our constitutional right as Americans to own firearms. So, those folks from other countries, as much as I respect your opinions, know that you cannot change our laws, our hearts, or our minds. We've given up enough of our rights in the last thirty years. For those Americans who don't like guns, you have the right NOT to own a firearm. I promise I will not come to your house and make you learn how to fire a weapon.

It is true, guns do not kill people any more than carrots being a leading cause of death. Look at all the cemetaries and know that a high number of those graves are filled with people who have eaten carrots. Yet, there is no ban on carrots.

Lots of people have died from being hit by cars and being beaten by baseball bats, yet it is still legal to drive to a baseball game.

My thoughts are that crime would be much lower if more people exercised their right to defend themselves. Everytime I see a news report about some crazy person at work shooting people, I think how many of them would still be alive if they could have defended themselves.

Even if you did get rid of the weapons, you'll never get rid of the criminals. Then what?

lightswitch · 02-27-2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Truth Hurts

Damn, she should sell the gun, and use the cash as a down payment towards getting some titties.

I like here titties, & shes got great eyes

<IMX> · 02-27-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Interlude
Lott's book is actually very good reading and makes a very interesting point - legal gun ownership reduces crime, and always has no matter where it's been tried. Debating it with most anti-gun folks, however is pretty useless, as most are invincibly ignorant - they don't know, won't believe, and cannot be swayed.

Is this another one of those microwaved pop-culture pseudo-science books?
LOL. If so it means just about jack shit. Great fodder for talking head shows.

However, should people be able to own guns?...yep. but then again, I think people should be able to smoke crack if they want to. All I'm concerned about are the externalities involved, so there are and should be laws restricting ownership and usage.

Gun ownership is problematic, I haven't seen many detailed studies from unbaised academic research oriented institutions produced lately...and even if they were people are so polarized on the issue that they wouldn't listen to a study that would undoubtedly conclude with mixed results...

So we get these bullshit talking head books.

Mr.Fiction · 02-27-2003, 02:39 PM

The facts about Islam (using the same logic):

The crime rate in several Muslim countries is below that in the U.S., so everyone in America should be forced to convert from Christianity to Islam. It also proves that Islam is a better religion.

JeremySF · 02-27-2003, 03:15 PM

Only compare crime rates to England? That was just an example. Look at crime statistics for countries like Finland, Israel, Switzerland, etc., that have comparable gun ownership as the U.S., but significantly less crime. Or Vermont which has one of the highest gun ownership rates in the U.S. and very low crime. My main contention is the reason for the high rate of gun violence in the U.S. is not b/c of gun ownership, but for other reasons, and the way we will solve the problem isn't to ban guns. It's to develop a way to address the problem within the framework of the constitution. Do you think if we banned guns in the U.S. tomorrow we?d eliminate gun violence? No way. You might get guns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens, but I guarantee criminals wouldn?t have a problem getting guns. Like it or not, gun ownership is a right protected by the American constitution. Guns will never be banned in this country.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gutterboy
Jeremy -

The fact that you only compare crime rates to England handily refutes your notions about gun restrictions increasing crime. If gun banning increased crime, there should be high crime rates in EVERY COUNTRY which bans guns, not just England.

So why just use England as an example? Because using most other countries with tight gun control for crime rates comparisons would force you to come to the opposite conclusion than the one you want.

Look at that skyrocketing Japanese crime rate for example. Obviously they are in dire need of guns to help control things..

02-24-2003, 05:47 PM	#1
JeremySF Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,236	The Facts about Guns and Violence "In 1981, the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times." According to Reason, after a few days of crime after crime, "London police are now looking to the New York City police for advice."" ?In 1973, American civilians owned approximately 122 million firearms and the homicide rate was 9.4 per 100,000 population. In 1992, American civilians owned over 220 million firearms and the homicide rate was 8.5. Over a twenty-year period, firearms almost doubled while the homicide rate fell by 10 percent.? Why does Washington, D.C., a district whose laws make it illegal to buy, possess, transport or acquire a handgun, experience the highest per capita murder rates in the nation? "Professor John R. Lott Jr. ? author of "More Guns, Less Crime" ? spent years researching the claim that high murder rates resulted from gun ownership. He concluded, "There is no international evidence backing this up. The Swiss, New Zealanders and Finns all own guns as frequently as Americans, yet in 1995 Switzerland had a murder rate 40 percent lower than Germany's, and New Zealand had one lower than Australia's."" __________________ ICQ: 176050593 / AIM: JerSF2000 "Love is the answer - but while you're waiting for the answer sex raises some pretty good questions." ---------------------------------------------

02-24-2003, 07:08 PM	#12
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Jeremy, have you seen Bowling for Columbine? Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

02-25-2003, 05:23 PM	#30
MattB Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: AZ, CO, NV, CA, MT Posts: 191	Guns = Cool. No guns = not cool. Now, about Butte, MT. I use to live 80 miles away from Butte. What a dump. The only reason to go to Butte is the 24 hour city wide drunk-fest every St. Patricks day. __________________ ARC Rewards Coming soon!

02-25-2003, 06:07 PM	#33
Lane Will code for food... Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Buckeye, AZ Posts: 8,496	guns don't kill people, bullets do __________________

02-25-2003, 07:21 PM	#38
Gutterboy So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Dis Posts: 4,751	Jeremy - The fact that you only compare crime rates to England handily refutes your notions about gun restrictions increasing crime. If gun banning increased crime, there should be high crime rates in EVERY COUNTRY which bans guns, not just England. So why just use England as an example? Because using most other countries with tight gun control for crime rates comparisons would force you to come to the opposite conclusion than the one you want. Look at that skyrocketing Japanese crime rate for example. Obviously they are in dire need of guns to help control things.. Last edited by Gutterboy; 02-25-2003 at 07:24 PM..

02-24-2003, 05:52 PM	#2
Interlude Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: State of Denial Posts: 1,147	Lott's book is actually very good reading and makes a very interesting point - legal gun ownership reduces crime, and always has no matter where it's been tried. Debating it with most anti-gun folks, however is pretty useless, as most are invincibly ignorant - they don't know, won't believe, and cannot be swayed.

02-24-2003, 06:33 PM	#8
lightswitch Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Butte, MT, USA Posts: 870	Anybody else pissed off that i cant get 30round clips for my .22 riffle? & the fact that in California you can own clips larger than 10 rounds, but you cant actually put more than 10 rounds in them? What about the ATF, gun control laws are enforced by alcohol consumption, & the resulting taxes. Allowing politicans to con peopel into thinking they will be safer with less guns, while making new laws that dont cost tax payers $$$ because they are enforced by a goverment agentcy that brings in BIllions in alchol and tobacco tax revenues. Many people think the ATF monitors alcohol quality, when in fact they do nothing but collect rediculious taxes (3.5 Billion)

02-24-2003, 07:12 PM	#14
Joe Sixpack So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 3,793	http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/02/24/sn....ap/index.html

02-24-2003, 07:34 PM	#17
Serge_Oprano So Fucking Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 9,820	Joesixpack is an idiot... this is your chart, punk:

02-24-2003, 10:53 PM	#19
RATBOY Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 1,592	Had to post my gal's opinion here: <img src="http://www.petitelilflower.com/index2_files/gun.jpg">

02-25-2003, 01:24 AM	#28
MetaMan I AM WEB 2.0 Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,682	" guns dont kill people, people kill people "

02-25-2003, 05:00 PM	#29
Joe Sixpack So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 3,793	http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/02/...ing/index.html

02-25-2003, 07:12 PM	#37
The Truth Hurts Zph7YXfjMhg Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: In Your Skull Posts: 15,398	You DO realize that 99.9% of all ststistics, are completely MADE UP, or are "adjusted" to favor whatever side is making the argument, right?

02-27-2003, 01:34 PM	#40
Scootermuze Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 4,513	Vermont requires no permit to carry a concealed weapon.. Vermont has one of the lowest crime rates in the country..

02-27-2003, 01:53 PM	#41
Miss Novette Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Florida Posts: 230	With all due respect, it is our constitutional right as Americans to own firearms. So, those folks from other countries, as much as I respect your opinions, know that you cannot change our laws, our hearts, or our minds. We've given up enough of our rights in the last thirty years. For those Americans who don't like guns, you have the right NOT to own a firearm. I promise I will not come to your house and make you learn how to fire a weapon. It is true, guns do not kill people any more than carrots being a leading cause of death. Look at all the cemetaries and know that a high number of those graves are filled with people who have eaten carrots. Yet, there is no ban on carrots. Lots of people have died from being hit by cars and being beaten by baseball bats, yet it is still legal to drive to a baseball game. My thoughts are that crime would be much lower if more people exercised their right to defend themselves. Everytime I see a news report about some crazy person at work shooting people, I think how many of them would still be alive if they could have defended themselves. Even if you did get rid of the weapons, you'll never get rid of the criminals. Then what? __________________ [email protected] PublicNudityContent by DreamGirls ICQ: 176744220 800-896-9773, x208

02-27-2003, 02:39 PM	#44
Mr.Fiction Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Free Speech Land Posts: 9,484	The facts about Islam (using the same logic): The crime rate in several Muslim countries is below that in the U.S., so everyone in America should be forced to convert from Christianity to Islam. It also proves that Islam is a better religion.