New Pope Francis is a humble man, cooks his own meals, takes the bus to work

[Mutt]

I like that, guy has been living in a regular apartment, takes public transit and cooks his own meals, has a microwave oven and has lived pretty much on

[harvey]

yeah, other than being accused of the disappearance of 2 monks, being present at torture rooms and being a motherfucking nazi, he's a pretty cool guy

[Mutt]

note how the little Pop n Fresh guy resembles a chubby little ghost - perhaps the Holy Spirt.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by harvey

yeah, other than being accused of the disappearance of 2 monks, being present at torture rooms and being a motherfucking nazi, he's a pretty cool guy

wow really? any links to articles? how was he linked to nazis?

[CaptainHowdy]

Originally Posted by harvey

yeah, other than being accused of the disappearance of 2 monks, being present at torture rooms and being a motherfucking nazi, he's a pretty cool guy

Don't see the torture room half empty, see it half full ...

[harvey]

Originally Posted by Mutt

wow really? any links to articles? how was he linked to nazis?

we call nazi to the ultra right wing motherfuckers who were part of the genocide, he's not exactly a nazi "per se" (well, who knows)

[bl4h]

more importantly, who gives a fuck

some old guy with a tortilla on his head

[harvey]

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Don't see the torture room half empty, see it half full ...

you have a virtual like

[MiLo]

Fits the job description. Who cares.

[harvey]

Originally Posted by MiLo

Fits the job description. Who cares.

[CaptainHowdy]

Originally Posted by MiLo

Fits the job description. Who cares.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by harvey

we call nazi to the ultra right wing motherfuckers who were part of the genocide, he's not exactly a nazi "per se" (well, who knows)

What genocide was he part of or linked to?

[harvey]

Originally Posted by baddog

What genocide was he part of or linked to?

the genocide in Argentina between 1976-1983, also called "Dirty War"

[mineistaken]

haters are fast

[baddog]

Originally Posted by mineistaken

haters are fast

After a little reading, he has a pretty tarnished [recent] past.

The Vatican's vetting procedure sucks.

[Mutt]

"According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their capture.

Verbitsky's book is based on statements by Orlando Yorio, one of the kidnapped Jesuits, before he died of natural causes in 2000. Both of the abducted clergymen survived five months of imprisonment.

"History condemns him. It shows him to be opposed to all innovation in the Church and above all, during the dictatorship, it shows he was very cozy with the military," Fortunato Mallimacci, the former dean of social sciences at the Universidad de Buenos Aires, once said.

Those who defend Bergoglio say there is no proof behind these claims and, on the contrary, they say the priest helped many dissidents escape during the military junta's rule."

Per the Associated Press, "Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery." Bergoglio discussed the incident with Sergio Rubin, his authorized biographer.

the other side of that story..........

More from AP:

Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them ? including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.

Bergoglio testified about the matter in 2010 after twice refusing to appear in open court, but "his answers were evasive, human rights attorney Myriam Bregman said."

more bad.............

"Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence) . . . recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate."

[ls101]

He doesnt look good to be a papa~!

[Dirty F]

I wonder what Jesus would think of the Vatican, their power, their intolerance and their money.

[Mutt]

Harvey, after reading the Wikipedia entries for The Dirty War and Peronism and the biographies of Juan and Evita Peron I'm pretty confused. Who are the 'good guys' in modern Argentinian history? Peron is thought to have been a Fascist yet it seems him and Evita were beloved by the people. Then the military overthrows Peron and this 'Dirty War' begins - the opposition to the junta are a mixture of different groups, including extreme Marxist guerillas who killed many people themselves, right wing Peronists and left wing Peronists which seems impossible, like saying there's a right wing faction of Barack Obama supporters. I know a military dictatorship isn't something anybody wants to live under but neither is Communism which is what these revolutionaries were fighting for. These students who were kidnapped and killed were probably Marxist?

Obviously I don't understand Argentinian and South American history and culture.

[just a punk]

Originally Posted by Mutt

takes the bus to work

He won't be able to do this anymore. Too many maniacs who want to be famous by killing pope

[mikesinner]

Originally Posted by harvey

yeah, other than being accused of the disappearance of 2 monks, being present at torture rooms and being a motherfucking nazi, he's a pretty cool guy

I think we have solved the mystery of what he has been eating for lunch.

[harvey]

Originally Posted by Mutt

Harvey, after reading the Wikipedia entries for The Dirty War and Peronism and the biographies of Juan and Evita Peron I'm pretty confused. Who are the 'good guys' in modern Argentinian history? Peron is thought to have been a Fascist yet it seems him and Evita were beloved by the people. Then the military overthrows Peron and this 'Dirty War' begins - the opposition to the junta are a mixture of different groups, including extreme Marxist guerillas who killed many people themselves, right wing Peronists and left wing Peronists which seems impossible, like saying there's a right wing faction of Barack Obama supporters. I know a military dictatorship isn't something anybody wants to live under but neither is Communism which is what these revolutionaries were fighting for. These students who were kidnapped and killed were probably Marxist?

Obviously I don't understand Argentinian and South American history and culture.

It's extremely complicated, not even us in Argentina can get to an agreement on the subject. Just to add to the confusion: the biggest armed organization was "peronista" but they fought against Peron.

Also, Evita and Peron were a very different story. Furthermore, Peron in 1945 wasn't the same Peron as in 1970. It's true he had bounds with fascist regimes, but saying he was a fascist or a nazi by Evita's time is quite a reach. However, he developed that fascist personality later, so that explains why Evita and Peron were so beloved by so many people and then the same Peron is called a fascist.

Just a really brief recap: Everything started after Cuba's experience, when US created the "School of Americas" to train South American military to dominate the whole continent, hence the many "coup de etat". This caused a great discontent amongst people all around Latin America, which led to the creation of different organizations. Some of them went into guerrilla paths, some of them went into legal paths. By beginning of 70s, Peron was exiled in Spain and military governments couldn't handle the situation, thus he was allowed to get back in what was called GAN (Gran Acuerdo Nacional, stands for Big National Agreement), under Kissinger's "Plan Condor" strategy.

There were elections in 1973, and a new "peronista" president was elected, but Peron kinda overthrown him, so new elections and this time Peron won them with the "Peron-Peron" formula (he and his wife).

After this he started the "Dirty War" by the creation of a paramilitary organization called AAA (Argentina's Anticommunist Alliance) which killed around 1200 people, mostly culture people and politics rivals, but when he died, socialist organizations proved to be too much, so a new coup happened in 1976, which led to the genocide.

However, after everything ended, we found out that the guerrilla was a mere excuse and most of the killed and disappeared people had nothing to do with guerrilla: religious people, workers, students, people having money or companies which someone form the government wanted and so on. Also, there was a huge influence and participation of pro-military civilians.

But one of the most resilient consequences to these days was the appropriation of children, of which 112 were found, but there are around 400 still missing, some of them dead, but most of them with a different identity they don't even know themselves.

As for the "communism" part.... you gotta understand your perception of communism isn't ours. For example, Chile's Allende was known as a communist (and that was the "justification" to overthrown him), but nobody with a bit of real knowledge would call Allende a communist for real, he was a mild socialist, not very different to what Obama is today. And Allende was the most leftist president in Latin America, so talking about communism in Latin America is, to the very least, funny. In general, Latin America's left limit always was a socialism like Sweden's or Willy Brandt's Germany. Of course there were more radical organizations, but they weren't really important.

And it's very easy to see it: nowadays, some people calls Chavez a "communist", yet nobody can explain which ones were the "communist" acts of Chavez. Some people calls "communist" our president Cristina Kirchner, yet most people here sees her as a right wing quasi fascist president with strong ties with IMF and US.

So, in short, I can see why it's complicated for you to understand something we don't understand even though we live it every single day

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Had to check the news twice...at first I thought I heard that Joe Francis was the new pope.





ADG

[John-ACWM]

Originally Posted by harvey

yeah, other than being accused of the disappearance of 2 monks, being present at torture rooms and being a motherfucking nazi, he's a pretty cool guy

too many secrets at Vatican!

[Lykos]

He looks cute

[Porko]

Originally Posted by harvey

the genocide in Argentina between 1976-1983, also called "Dirty War"

It was not a genocide. It was part of the cold war. All that people was urban guerrilla and terrorist group. You can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montoneros

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by harvey

It's extremely complicated, not even us in Argentina can get to an agreement on the subject. Just to add to the confusion: the biggest armed organization was "peronista" but they fought against Peron.

Also, Evita and Peron were a very different story. Furthermore, Peron in 1945 wasn't the same Peron as in 1970. It's true he had bounds with fascist regimes, but saying he was a fascist or a nazi by Evita's time is quite a reach. However, he developed that fascist personality later, so that explains why Evita and Peron were so beloved by so many people and then the same Peron is called a fascist.

Just a really brief recap: Everything started after Cuba's experience, when US created the "School of Americas" to train South American military to dominate the whole continent, hence the many "coup de etat". This caused a great discontent amongst people all around Latin America, which led to the creation of different organizations. Some of them went into guerrilla paths, some of them went into legal paths. By beginning of 70s, Peron was exiled in Spain and military governments couldn't handle the situation, thus he was allowed to get back in what was called GAN (Gran Acuerdo Nacional, stands for Big National Agreement), under Kissinger's "Plan Condor" strategy.

There were elections in 1973, and a new "peronista" president was elected, but Peron kinda overthrown him, so new elections and this time Peron won them with the "Peron-Peron" formula (he and his wife).

After this he started the "Dirty War" by the creation of a paramilitary organization called AAA (Argentina's Anticommunist Alliance) which killed around 1200 people, mostly culture people and politics rivals, but when he died, socialist organizations proved to be too much, so a new coup happened in 1976, which led to the genocide.

However, after everything ended, we found out that the guerrilla was a mere excuse and most of the killed and disappeared people had nothing to do with guerrilla: religious people, workers, students, people having money or companies which someone form the government wanted and so on. Also, there was a huge influence and participation of pro-military civilians.

But one of the most resilient consequences to these days was the appropriation of children, of which 112 were found, but there are around 400 still missing, some of them dead, but most of them with a different identity they don't even know themselves.

As for the "communism" part.... you gotta understand your perception of communism isn't ours. For example, Chile's Allende was known as a communist (and that was the "justification" to overthrown him), but nobody with a bit of real knowledge would call Allende a communist for real, he was a mild socialist, not very different to what Obama is today. And Allende was the most leftist president in Latin America, so talking about communism in Latin America is, to the very least, funny. In general, Latin America's left limit always was a socialism like Sweden's or Willy Brandt's Germany. Of course there were more radical organizations, but they weren't really important.

And it's very easy to see it: nowadays, some people calls Chavez a "communist", yet nobody can explain which ones were the "communist" acts of Chavez. Some people calls "communist" our president Cristina Kirchner, yet most people here sees her as a right wing quasi fascist president with strong ties with IMF and US.

So, in short, I can see why it's complicated for you to understand something we don't understand even though we live it every single day

The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence). He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate. The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment

[harvey]

Originally Posted by Porko

It was not a genocide. It was part of the cold war. All that people was urban guerrilla and terrorist group. You can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montoneros

thank you for the heads up, but I have the feeling I have a bit more knowledge than you on the subject. Furthermore, all the verdicts in the trials on Crimes Against Humanity were "in the context of a genocide". Literally. Unless everybody including the accused are wrong

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by harvey

It's extremely complicated, not even us in Argentina can get to an agreement on the subject. Just to add to the confusion: the biggest armed organization was "peronista" but they fought against Peron.

Also, Evita and Peron were a very different story. Furthermore, Peron in 1945 wasn't the same Peron as in 1970. It's true he had bounds with fascist regimes, but saying he was a fascist or a nazi by Evita's time is quite a reach. However, he developed that fascist personality later, so that explains why Evita and Peron were so beloved by so many people and then the same Peron is called a fascist.

Just a really brief recap: Everything started after Cuba's experience, when US created the "School of Americas" to train South American military to dominate the whole continent, hence the many "coup de etat". This caused a great discontent amongst people all around Latin America, which led to the creation of different organizations. Some of them went into guerrilla paths, some of them went into legal paths. By beginning of 70s, Peron was exiled in Spain and military governments couldn't handle the situation, thus he was allowed to get back in what was called GAN (Gran Acuerdo Nacional, stands for Big National Agreement), under Kissinger's "Plan Condor" strategy.

There were elections in 1973, and a new "peronista" president was elected, but Peron kinda overthrown him, so new elections and this time Peron won them with the "Peron-Peron" formula (he and his wife).

After this he started the "Dirty War" by the creation of a paramilitary organization called AAA (Argentina's Anticommunist Alliance) which killed around 1200 people, mostly culture people and politics rivals, but when he died, socialist organizations proved to be too much, so a new coup happened in 1976, which led to the genocide.

However, after everything ended, we found out that the guerrilla was a mere excuse and most of the killed and disappeared people had nothing to do with guerrilla: religious people, workers, students, people having money or companies which someone form the government wanted and so on. Also, there was a huge influence and participation of pro-military civilians.

But one of the most resilient consequences to these days was the appropriation of children, of which 112 were found, but there are around 400 still missing, some of them dead, but most of them with a different identity they don't even know themselves.

As for the "communism" part.... you gotta understand your perception of communism isn't ours. For example, Chile's Allende was known as a communist (and that was the "justification" to overthrown him), but nobody with a bit of real knowledge would call Allende a communist for real, he was a mild socialist, not very different to what Obama is today. And Allende was the most leftist president in Latin America, so talking about communism in Latin America is, to the very least, funny. In general, Latin America's left limit always was a socialism like Sweden's or Willy Brandt's Germany. Of course there were more radical organizations, but they weren't really important.

And it's very easy to see it: nowadays, some people calls Chavez a "communist", yet nobody can explain which ones were the "communist" acts of Chavez. Some people calls "communist" our president Cristina Kirchner, yet most people here sees her as a right wing quasi fascist president with strong ties with IMF and US.

So, in short, I can see why it's complicated for you to understand something we don't understand even though we live it every single day

Why on earth were children kidnapped?


Peron was overthrown by the military in 1955, then you say he came back from exile in the 70's and he started the Dirty War? I would have thought he'd have hated the military, according to Wikipedia the juntas who were in charge during the Dirty War years and it began after Peron's widow was ousted.

[Captain Kawaii]

NPR reported yesterday he has been accused of turning a blind eye to child trafficking. WTF is it with Catholic priests and kids. Disgusts me.