Wealth inequality really only becomes a major problem when the lower end of the spectrum bottoms out. If you look at most of the countries in the world that are third world shitholes they almost all have a huge division of wealth where they have a tiny number of people that are very wealthy and a huge number of people that are very poor. They also have a very small middle class. These countries also have a broken education system so they have huge segments of the population that are way under-educated. There is also little or no upward mobility

The US might slowly be trending that way, with the middle class shrinking and out public education system seeming to get worse and worse, but we are a long way from that because this country still has a ton of upward mobility. Becoming a billionaire or even millionaire, requires more than just getting an education and getting a good job and it is something most people simply are not capable of doing. However, most people, if they are driven, apply themselves and focus can get a good education and can get a good job that allows them to live comfortable life.

So long as we have that middle class and the ability for people to create a quality life for themselves the country will be fine.

Need work? It's super easy to find. I was renovating 2 commercial spaces not too long ago for an offline business and guess what? Mexicans standing near Home Depot wanted 15+ an hour and usually found work every day and those that worked hard usually found permanent jobs. Cash.. tax free money. These are uneducated people who can't even speak the language. You think they'd be better off standing around bitching and blaming rich people and the government??? Of course not.

if you call me expecting people to get off their fucking asses and start looking to themselves "condescension" then I can guess you're one of the not too successful looking for excuses and somewhere to lay blame.
:2 cents::2 cents:

1. Do you sit down there and monitor them on a daily basis month in and month out? If not how do you know that they find work every day?

2. I don't think you can fairly compare someone who is likely illegally in the country and willing to work for cash under the table with no benefits to someone who might have had a good job, lost it and is trying to get another good job that pays well and has benefits.

3. Sure, there are many people out there who could just get off their asses and get out there and they could get a job and they do bitch about the rich fucking them over, but really, what percentage of the population do you think these people make up?

People change, they are not fixed. If they live in societies where greed and selfishness is promoted they become selfish. In caring societies where values of kindness and equality are promoted people behave well.

Communism was destroyed because if was being built in very poor countries , with poor industrial development, no history of democracy, built on the ruins of war and surrounded by power capitalist countries set on its destruction.

I think the next revolution will be in the US and there the chances of building a successfull socialist country are good, it has a large and advanced economy and a history of democracy and openness.

:2 cents:

Let's not forget that also, for many they are sitting 200 yards before the start line. It's *fucking* hard to even get to the start line from that position, and from then on in make headway. I'm currently in a world of shit after doing pretty well for a number of years, and I can tell you from experience that once you start getting bogged down and sucked under, things are extraordinarily hard. Not impossible, as I'm making headway and expect to be out of this shit in 6 - 12 months, so I do agree that hard work + mental attitude is VERY significant, but yeah, like others have said, don't be so quick to 'judge' or believe that it's a simple case of 'work hard and save up'. That just isn't how it happens.

I've had what you might call a 'colourful' life, which includes being homeless at about 16/17 years of age, a spell in prison, and blah blah etc etc, and while I'm definitely not saying 'woe is/was me', I needed the generosity of others (not in a monetary sense) to be able to pull myself out of that treacle-filled swimming pool, and further myself. Been there and done that, and that's why I'll never, ever, pull the ladder up and judge another person based on where they currently are.

If you suddenly find yourself in a situation where you have a lot less money than you had before you find it is expensive to be poor. You miss a payment on your credit card and they charge you a fee and increase your interest rate so once you find yourself behind it becomes that much more difficult to get yourself out of that hole.

lol

you are the same as those republican tea party retards that totally turn the conversation around when it comes to something they can't deny.

what you wrote has nothing to do with what i was asking you.

i was asking you about a former system that locked people away or even executed them when you didn't share their political opinion.

but i assume thats ok for you when you still keep defending that nowadays

and when it comes to my personal experience - besides my GF and her family and the 40 years of history that came with that - i remember very well that i couldnt visit parts of my family that lived near the polish/czech border in the DDR but we kept sending them parcels with coffee, chocolate, clothes and other stuff they couldnt buy back then

but keep living in your dream world, comrade

As one who has lived in a former eastern bloc country for many years, to put it nicely Cherry7, you are full of shit. Yes people had jobs but the vast majority were not able to choose their work. If you failed to show for your assigned job the police would come to your home and physically remove you and take you to work. Your choices of where to purchase what little food that was available were limited to the party approved store in your area; usually only one. Milk, bread, butter, cooking oil, sugar, pork, beef, chicken and potatoes were routinely rationed. Electricity and heat were rationed or simply cut off for hours on end. We had only one television station that played party BS and cartoons. Nobody trusted anyboy because all your neighbors were informants to the secret police and your phone was tapped. Thousands of people just went missing; most likely murdered bu the state. Women were forced to have 2 children unless they had a C-section therefore almost all the women paid bribes to the doctor to receive a C-section. If you lived in the village and were lucky enough to have your own animals, when that animal gave birth you would be imprisioned if you fed yourself rather that sell the animal to the state for coins. Cars were only for high ranking party officials. People joined the party in the hope that the largesse of the potilicos would fall to them, although it never did. Oh we long for those days.

What difference does their legal status or benefits with respect to being able to step out the front door with shitty clothes, unshowered, not speaking the language and then being able to make 500+ a week cash have to do with anything?

My point is simply that one single question never gets answered...

"At what point does any responsibility at all get put on the individual". All i hear are sad stories about how some other external thing is to blame and that thing needs to be attacked. Just like you said "trying to get another good job that pays well, with benefits" - Wow. How about starting at "get a job, save money" and then move to "look for better job WHILE working"?

You're a smart guy. How about this. How about you go to Home Depot and conduct an informal survey - just as I ask every time I hire laborers... "do you find work every day" "how many of you guys here find work every day" "how often are you offered permanent jobs" etc etc etc.
--- just keep your car doors locked as they'll try to rush your car and pile in. (but then again, I guess really wanting it pays off)


I have a background in construction, its not like i'm just making this up. I think the results will be wildly disappointing for anyone who thinks rich people should be punished to lift poor people up. In fact, those fuckers demand more and more money now. Years back, they used to be 8.00 an hour for skilled workers, now they all want 15-20/hr where I am and the good ones find steady work very quickly.

I feel like I woke up one day and suddenly everyone feels they are entitled to everything. Why do people have it in their heads that they aren't supposed to struggle? That employment is not guaranteed? That things aren't just going to be given to them. How many of the people bitching about "rich people" are actively planning for their future, saving money, getting educated and improving their earning ability? How many are just sitting around bitching while they spend their money on retarded crap and then complaining about rich people because they are broke?

20+ years now of telling every kid they are special and passing out participation trophies created a generation of young adults who can't understand why the world isn't treating them like they're special. The problems in the US are 95% cultural, not economic. Why are we never talking about lazy, useless, self entitled people?... and just trying to paint a picture of 10,000,000 Ward Cleaver types who are doing the best that circumstances will allow but some big evil corporation is oppressing them?

I read a statistic that Houston has more check cashing places than Subway restaurants. Why aren't we talking about the need to address retarded people with zero responsibility, who accept zero personal accountability and who make nothing but hugely irresponsible and stupid decisions, all day, every day at the direct cost of everyone else?

Why aren't we talking about people making minimum wage having 1-2-3 kids? Why is the fucking President telling everyone that's ok? Huh? Why are you having kids when you can't afford to have kids? Why is he addressing the nation telling people it takes "courage" to stick around and raise a child? Last I checked "raise your child and be a parent" fell squarely under the "no shit" category. I guess thats clearly changed. Why was he telling the nation that everyone should be able to afford a great pre-school for their multiple kids even though they are making minimum wage? I never went to fucking pre-school. I mean, we're supposed to go to pre-school? Huh? That should be a right that I as a tax payer need to pay for?

The absolute last problem this country has is "rich people". Los Angeles has billboards that say "do the impossible, graduate high school". We've lowered standards so far now for what we expect of people as a society that people are confused that anything is expected of them at all. We are creating a nation of underachievers and at the same time, telling them its the achievers who are responsible for all their problems. That's pure insanity.

The point that hurts every one to think about. NO ONE that is driven, that works extremely hard, that is bright and good at what they do are unemployed for any real amount of time. It's largely "everyone else" that is. I don't know ANY great people that are unemployed. Maybe people need to examine that?

So again, my question is always "where does any of this fall on the individual" - that's the one thing that never gets addressed.

Sound pretty terrible and I do not defend what happened in Romania, but I lived in Poland and Britain and I saw that was a great deal to be said for the regime in Poland. It had work and housing for everyone, free education and health care for all. It also had an open society in which books films and plays were shown from all over the World. All Poles had seen life in America on film. How many Americans have watched Russian or Polish films?

the system had a lot of faults and I got into trouble while I lived there for protesting about it, I was arrestes and deported. But I have been arrested in Britain too, I have seen how poor people are fucked over here and how the system is design to exploit people.

Free travel is a great thing, but just as the Communist regimes were wrong to stop people traveling, remember the the majority of people can't travel because they are prevented to enter the USA or Europe, in fact thousands die trying.

I think America has very many positive democratic achievements, they should be part of any future good society, but that society would also have a lot of what the Communist countries tried to do..
Housing for all, jobs for all, cheap heating and basic food, clean water, free health care.

50 crazy people

Wait??!?!?!? What??!??!?!??!

1000s died trying to leave these perfect Communist utopias where everything is wonderful?

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Why would thousands of people be willing to die by leaving such a wonderful place?

Perhaps they are too stupid to understand how great they have it?

East Germany was designed to fail. Russia did that on purpose.

Before East Germany was officially set up Russia went in and looted everything of value (and also raped millions of females of all ages). The manufacturing industry in East Germany was completely destroyed and no effort was ever made to rebuild it.

Here in the US we were taught that the Berlin wall was built to keep smart people in East Germany, but that's only half the story. Russia didn't want them going into West Germany and becoming a productive member of society. They wanted their bright minds to go to waste with nothing to do in East Germany.

Germany wiped out about half a generation of Russian boys. Hitler wasn't the brutal dictator he is framed out to be. The people of Germany loved him. They supported his actions. So Russia's 40 year payback on them was a bitch.

i think we have spotted a nazi...

You did not follow what I said I am talking about the thousands that are dying NOW trying to get into the rich countries Europe and the US.

Free travel has never been a right enjoyed by everyone.

Thousands of African migrants drown trying to reach Europe

uh, these people are not looking to 'travel', they are looking to be refugees. i don't know why you would use the world travel like they are some kind of tourist that would return home after a couple of weeks/months.

In the end it mostly falls on the individual. A person makes choices in their lives and those choices can turn out good or bad. If you choose to not get an education or learn a trade of some sort and you just get a basic job right out of high school you have to expect that the odds of you eventually landing a higher paying job are not all that great unless you eventually learn some sort of skill. The days of standing on an assembly line doing a mindless job and earning a good wage are quickly vanishing. There are a lot of people who made a good wage at their job then lost that job and are now finding that industry is shrinking and those jobs simply no longer exist. They then have to make the choice to either learn to do something new or accept the fact that they are likely going to have to get a lower paying job and hope to work their way up the ladder again.

My post was not about hating on rich people. I don't hate rich people. Are some of the scumbags who will do things that are bad for the country while fucking many innocent people over just to earn a dollar? Sure. But that doesn't mean they all are. The only rich people who really bother me are those like Paris Hilton who did nothing but be lucky enough to fall out of the correct vagina and into a pile of cash and they have a sense of entitlement because of it.

My post was basically saying that I feel you were over simplifying the situation. If everyone who needed a job drove down and stood in front of Home Depot there would thousands of people out there and only a small number of them would get jobs. Doing that works for those with the skills/ability to do those jobs. I doubt guys with no ability that are just doing general labor are regularly getting hired for $15 per hour in front of Home Depot. Even if they often do get work, most people are simply not wired this way. Most people like working for others. They like the security and stability of knowing that if they go into the office/job for 40 hours each week they get a paycheck each week and they can count on it. If you are standing in front of Home Depot hoping to pick up work you go in each day not sure if you will work today or not. I bring up the illegal status because I would venture to guess that if these guys were legal they would be working hard to get a regular, steady job with a company or they might be trying to run their own company. One of the reasons they are out there is because those other options are likely not open to them.

When you mention the lowering of standards in schools that one really hit home for me. My nephew (who is, sadly, a mope) graduated high school yet is basically illiterate. He flunked all but 1 class his 8th grade year and was still sent on to high school. After his first two years he had failed half his classes. His junior year he was expelled. They let him finish off 5 or 6 packets of homework on his own and once he did those they let him graduate. His education level is so bad he recently took the ASVAB test that you take when you want to join the military. He did so poorly on it they wouldn't even take him as a grunt and the recruiter thought he was purposely messing with him. He went to a local community college to look into getting an Associates Degree in some field. They had him take a placement test and told him he would likely need 2-3 years of basic core classes just to get to the starting level of the Associates classes. It is sad and his future is bleak. There is a lot of blame to places here, most of which falls on his mom and grandma, but it is also sad that the school system is such that someone like this actually has a diploma. Add in during the last campaign I remember Rick Santorum actually mocking people with college degrees. He was speaking to a crowd and called those with college degrees elitist and came off like getting an education was no big deal. Meanwhile all of his kids are in college and he and his wife both went to college. We don't need leaders of this country telling people education doesn't matter.

Anyway, I'm rambling on here. In the end, I was basically trying to say that I thought your assessment of how easy it is to get a job was a little over simplified, but I do agree with you that people need to take responsibility for themselves and those who do that and work hard are normally the ones who get the jobs and find success.

there's a difference between being denied entering a country for economical reasons and being shot for trying to leave a country for political reasons

sure the majority of the blame is on the individual but its not that simple. people are comprised of many things. the society in which they are raised has a big role in forming who they are. parents, school, media, everything. so while you can blame the individual, the individual is product of their surroundings.

fact is no matter how hard most people try, they will never hit it big. so you can try and try all your life spending your whole life trying to achieve whatever you define as success and if you never make it there and you're now old and gray..this makes you a loser? you're not smart enough to make it? no, not really. there are so many factors at play to say its because of X is just a way to categorize it in your mind and forget about it instead of looking for real answers.

Brilliantly put. I didn't have the patience to write out my long version of this exact same post, but was going to add into mine "so we are responsible for others too", in the context of where I've bolded your quote. :thumbsup

I always enjoy reading your posts and seeing you express your views. You are one of the few articulate people here who can make a well reasoned point.

I wasn't really trying to paint it as a black and white picture. I was more trying to say "there's this whole other side that never gets addressed". No one is saying "hey, we expect more from you" or "we expect better from you" anymore. Suddenly every person is a star and expecting to go through life being treated as such.... and worse, confused when it isn't happening.

What I dislike is the idea that some external thing causes ones own success or failure in life. True or not, thinking like that or believing that in itself is a recipe for failure. That's the catch-22 of helping vs hurting. There are no billionaires, olympic athletes or multiplatinum artists talking about "hey man, i never had to try". In fact, no one that is successful is going to say "yeah, its all just luck" as they know its about attitude, determination and hard work.

Man,... about schools... I would love to tell you a story about a personal experience recently that was just blowing me away but it would have to be in private. The teacher herself, was barely literate. Really a wake up call in terms of where this nation is at with public education. Of course, then again,.... we can't call a bunch of unionized teachers worthless or a school system horrible without being attacked and being told we simply don't throw enough money at the problem. Somehow a university can have one teacher in front of 800 students doing their jobs and we can't get public schools to the point that teachers are standing up in front of 30 students and doing their jobs.

You are 100% correct when you say that those who are billionaires or huge successes in their fields (IE actors, singers, athletes etc) don't chalk it up to luck. Pro athletes usually commit themselves to their sport when they are little kids and they play their entire lives to get to that elite level. When you get to that level often times it is the details that make the difference. Sometimes just a fraction of a second on a sprint time or an extra couple of reps on a benchpress can be the difference between getting drafted in the first round and not being drafted at all. There are a ton of talented, great college athletes that are just a fraction away from being able to be a pro. The difference might be that the guy who made it as a pro spent a few extra weeks during vacation working out or doing something that gave him that tiny bit of an edge and that edge was enough.

Rarely does success just fall in your lap. you might get a break, but your preparedness has you ready to take advantage of that break. Often it is also about having the courage to take the plunge and do something for yourself. Most people are not willing to take a chance and give up what they have for a chance at something bigger and better. I have a friend who really wants to run his own business. I have given him all kinds of advice and we even worked together on a few projects, but eventually they didn't work out for him. Between putting in 45-50 hours per week at his day job and spending time with his family he had no time to work on the project. When I tell him he is going to have to sacrifice one of them he then tells me he won't quit his job until he is making at least as much at the new business which is likely impossible since he doesn't have any time to work on the new business. He wants it, but doesn't want the risk that is associated with it.

I also agree that it seems like the current generation of kids does have a higher than normal sense of entitlement. I know all adults bitch about the current kids being little shits, but I was reading an article about a year ago where they were showing questions asked of grade and high school kids. One of the questions they asked was if the kid thought they were a person of significant importance. 20 years ago about 8% of the kids answered yes. The newest poll showed 40% of the kids said yes. When asked what they wanted to be when they grew up the kids from 20 years ago had a wide variety of answers. With today's the second most popular answer was famous. Not musician or actor or singer, just famous. My nephew is a perfect example of it. He is now 19 years old. He has never worked, has no job prospects and all he does all days is sit around and smoke weed. All of his friends that are his age have pretty much abandoned him because they were sick of always having to pay for him and providing him transportation if they went somewhere. So now he hangs out with kids that are still in high school. Yes, he is that one creepy guy all schools have that is 19 and hanging out with 15 and 16 year olds. By all accounts he is a loser, but he has such an ego he thinks he is the greatest thing that has ever walked the planet. He is 100% certain he will either be a pro skateboarder or a famous DJ, yet he only skates a few times per week and can only do a couple of tricks and he never practices and when it comes to DJing all he does is listen to the music and download tracks. I try to tell him what it will take for him to succeed to motivate him, but he doesn't want to hear it.

There are good kids out there and good teachers and good schools, but it seems like the entire system is just continually being dumbed down and it is helping to create more and more people who are under-educated, self absorbed and unwilling to work.

interesting fact I saw on Forbes today that relates:

If you have no debt and $10 cash in your pocket now you are wealthier than 25% of Americans

To me there are a few different levels of success. For example, I consider my brother to be successful. He makes a good living, has a pension in place that will take care of him and allow him to live a comfortable life when he retires and he enjoys his job. He makes between $85K-$100K depending on overtime a year. He isn't Bill Gates successful, but he is a success.

To be a Bill Gates kind of success you need many things to fall into place. Many of those guys created or innovated something or they were able to take an innovation to a mass market. For example, Facebook was not a new idea, but it was a better mousetrap and they figured out a good way to make it popular. Also, many of these people are very "A" type personalities who are driven to succeed not just by money, but by wanting to achieve other goals. Look at Steve Jobs. When he was sick and dying of cancer he was still working. He worked right up until the end. Working was his life. Many people simply aren't wired that way and that reality alone precludes them from ever having that kind of success. When it comes to entertainers, there is more luck involved because there are a lot of things that are out of your control. You can get a part in a movie, do a great job and the movie flops and with it so does your career. You can also get a role in a really small movie, do a good job and it becomes a surprise hit and with it you become a star. To have a long lasting career in entertainment you have to be willing to hang with it, grind it out and make smart decisions so when you get on top you can stay there.

While I agree that people are a product of their environment and their surroundings you hold out hope that people will see others and they will take the examples of others and apply it to themselves to break the cycle. A few months ago I was contacted via Facebook by someone I went to high school with. She got married right out of high school and quickly had three kids. She is still married today (at 41-years-old) and her kids are all teenagers or young adults. She was very poor growing up. Now she, her husband and three kids are so poor that they all live with her mom and share one bedroom together. She was going on and on and on about how proud she was that she teaches her kids to be thankful for what they've got and to give back and help others. I suggested that maybe she teach them to be a little bit more selfish and to desire something a little more for themselves. Maybe they focus on getting some level of success for themselves and establish themselves before they worry about others and she thought I was crazy. So, basically, she is not only stuck in the cycle of poverty herself, but she is teaching it to her kids. When I told her that I hope her kids will break the cycle and learn that if they truly want to help others they have to learn to help themselves first she got so mad she unfriended me. Hopefully her kids will grow up, get out on their own and see that they don't have to live that kind of life if they don't want to.

That is pretty sad.

That's pretty sad too :( Seems lots of people think that being grateful for what you do have (which I do agree is very important) is the end game. Such a waste.

I saw another great example of it today. There is this show on MTV called World of Jenks. It is an hour long show where a documentary filmmaker Andrew Jenks travels all over and meets people, typically in their 20's that are doing something interesting or facing certain challenges and he follows them around and lives in their world for a while. The show is often pretty cool. The new season started this week and one of the guys he is following is a guy who is a dancer from Oakland, California. The guy has some killer moves and is very talented. He is also an ex-gang member and drug dealer who saw his brother get shot down in the streets and has lost tons of people in his life. At first he tells Jenks he is dedicated to showing that Oakland can turn itself around and he wants to help younger people make something good from their lives through dance. Those are noble ideas. Then you find out he has a girlfriend and a baby and they live in a tiny little apartment and are basically living in poverty, yet all his energy is focused on helping others. It just seems to me that someone needs to tell this guy to take his family and move the fuck out of that shitty city and make something of himself so he can provide a good life for his family before he worries about other people. Once he has success then he can come back and help others.

As I watched and listened to him talk it was as if he had already decided his life was pretty much done so he was focused on making his son's life and other kids' lives better.

Yes Capitalism is economic terror. You die if you don't have money.

Communism used political terror, you are killed for political reasons.

I don't support either ( except when fighting terror) ,

You think it is ok that refugees are left to drown?

So then what economic and or social/political system to you support?

so why don't you direct your anger at the 1% of people in Africa for example that rake in money that the "evil" capitalists are sending to help the poor every year to prevent these situations? Which they use to buy cars, houses and weapons with instead?

anyways, i never said that we shouldn't help poor people, feel free to look at my posting history, i am way more "socialist" than you would think.

but as much as i fight against any nazi tendencies, i fight against anyone that pictures communism as some kind of dream world where everything was fine and peachy.

so he's from Hispanola?

The Eastern Bloc was no more communist than China is today. Whereas China has 'evolved' into a capitalist tyranny (as we are, but we do it with more subtlety), Warsaw Pact countries were run along Stalinist lines (again, we're quietly getting there). Stalinism is not communism.

I think that we now live in a global capitalist economy, and the problems in Africa and the reasons people try and leave are directly connected to the way Europe and the US run. Example to farming subsidies that put African farmers out of business.
I agree it is important not to turn the picture of communism into something peachy, but at the same time it was not the evil that it is painted in the propaganda picture of the west.

I am against all who deny others a fair life economic or political, and I acknowledge that you are also an ally in the good fight for true human liberation. :-)