Does Gun Control Restrict Liberty?

[Webmaster Advertising]

Just wondering what your thoughts on this were?

At the same time what are your thoughts on abortion, gay marriage, female rights, etc?

[Killswitch]

[wehateporn]

[wehateporn]

[J. Falcon]

In the mind of some idiots, yes it does restrict liberty.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by J. Falcon

In the mind of some idiots, yes it does restrict liberty.

It restricts my ability to look after myself. If that makes me an idiot well …..

.

[Donny]

It's not about the guns. It's not about the guns at all. It's about politicians taking away rights they have no business taking away. It's about accomplishing such by using emotional reasons that don't really apply. It's about sitting in disbelief, watching as so many of one's fellow countrymen fall for these antics. It's about witnessing a great country be weakened by fools.

[CDSmith]

I suppose it depends on how the "gun control" is done. If it means law abiding citizens will no longer be allowed to own one then definitely people are going to feel like their freedoms are being stomped on. But frankly, I don't see Americans putting up with that kind of law. Not even for a minute. Which is why it baffles me why so many come on here throwing ridicule and criticism at the USA over the amount of gun ownership that Americans have. An accross the board ban simply isn't going to happen, America in general simply won't have it, so why not have everyone just shut up about it?

I don't think anyone's saying there isn't a problem, but disarming the entire US civilian non-criminal population is never going to be the answer no matter how much people (mostly foreigners) squawk about it.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

I suppose it depends on how the "gun control" is done. If it means law abiding citizens will no longer be allowed to own one then definitely people are going to feel like their freedoms are being stomped on. But frankly, I don't see Americans putting up with that kind of law. Not even for a minute. Which is why it baffles me why so many come on here throwing ridicule and criticism at the USA over the amount of gun ownership that Americans have. An accross the board ban simply isn't going to happen, America in general simply won't have it, so why not have everyone just shut up about it?

I don't think anyone's saying there isn't a problem, but disarming the entire US civilian non-criminal population is never going to be the answer no matter how much people (mostly foreigners) squawk about it.

Well stated.

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[Rob]

I think this has more to do with the paranoia that Obama is a socialist and there is precedent when socialist leaders start enacting gun control measures. I'm not saying I agree that Obama is a socialist, but that is what people have been led to believe. Then you do a search for the NDAA where they can imprison (or assassinate) Americans, without probable cause and without legal representation for as long as they wish, the FEMA camps being built, etc. Too many coincidences happening for people not to take notice. But the executive orders Obama signed yesterday were all pretty mild. It's the legislation that is upcoming that gun owners need to be concerned with. Although I think it will die on the vine before ever getting passed. And the POTUS can't use an executive order to alter a constitutional amendment. It's an impeachable offense.

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

I suppose it depends on how the "gun control" is done. If it means law abiding citizens will no longer be allowed to own one then definitely people are going to feel like their freedoms are being stomped on. But frankly, I don't see Americans putting up with that kind of law. Not even for a minute. Which is why it baffles me why so many come on here throwing ridicule and criticism at the USA over the amount of gun ownership that Americans have. An accross the board ban simply isn't going to happen, America in general simply won't have it, so why not have everyone just shut up about it?

I don't think anyone's saying there isn't a problem, but disarming the entire US civilian non-criminal population is never going to be the answer no matter how much people (mostly foreigners) squawk about it.

What does gun control have to do with disarming or banning guns? That's probably the main problem with all gun supporters, it's all or nothing.

[Rochard]

We have rights, but there are obvious restrictions on these rights. We have freedom of religion here in the US, but doesn't mean that religion can violate US or local laws. We have the right to bear arms, but that does not mean you have the right legally own a mobile missile launcher.

Originally Posted by Rob

I think this has more to do with the paranoia that Obama is a socialist and there is precedent when socialist leaders start enacting gun control measures. I'm not saying I agree that Obama is a socialist, but that is what people have been led to believe. Then you do a search for the NDAA where they can imprison (or assassinate) Americans, without probable cause and without legal representation for as long as they wish, the FEMA camps being built, etc. Too many coincidences happening for people not to take notice. But the executive orders Obama signed yesterday were all pretty mild. It's the legislation that is upcoming that gun owners need to be concerned with. Although I think it will die on the vine before ever getting passed. And the POTUS can't use an executive order to alter a constitutional amendment. It's an impeachable offense.

I think this has little to do with whomever is in the Oval Office at this moment. Twenty little school children were brutally murdered and the public wants our government to do something. During the election they both wanted to avoid the topic of gun control, but even if Romney was in office he would have been forced to do something.

[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

It restricts my ability to look after myself. If that makes me an idiot well ?..

.

Limiting the capacity of magazines to 8 to 10 bullets, and requiring universal background checks "restricts your ability to look after yourself"? How? Are you a nearsighted person with a criminal past?

[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by Donny

It's not about the guns. It's not about the guns at all. It's about politicians taking away rights they have no business taking away.

Oh for fuck's sake. Elected officials ABSOLUTELY ARE in the business of passing laws that often restrict behavior - with the consent of the governed. And if you think everyone has unlimited rights to unlimited weaponry, you're a gun nut.

[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by CDSmith

An accross the board ban simply isn't going to happen, America in general simply won't have it, so why not have everyone just shut up about it?

I agree. Because no one has proposed it...except the gun nuts. They want to make that the argument, rather than one about common sense legislation concerning universal background checks and a limit of the capacity of magazines.

[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by J. Falcon

What does gun control have to do with disarming or banning guns? That's probably the main problem with all gun supporters, it's all or nothing.

QFT!

[DTK]

Originally Posted by Webmaster Advertising

Just wondering what your thoughts on this were?

Only if you believe the 2nd amendment allows unlimited weapons of any type for any person, which i'm 99.99999999999% certain it doesn't

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

Limiting the capacity of magazines to 8 to 10 bullets, and requiring universal background checks "restricts your ability to look after yourself"? How? Are you a nearsighted person with a criminal past?

It's the government remember. Once restrictions start where will it end? There are already mandatory background checks to purchase a firearm.

As far as restricting magazine capacity there are 10's of millions of magazines already out there. And do you really think someone out to kill innocent people will stop because it takes one whole second more to drop a new mag in?

The problem isn't guns it's criminals and people with mental problems. Let's say the ban goes into effect and more killings happen then what? I'll tell you, even more restrictions for everyone EXCEPT the criminals and nut cases. That's why most gun owners don't want more restrictions. Restrictions tend to expand but don't address the core problem.

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[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

I agree. Because no one has proposed it...except the gun nuts. They want to make that the argument, rather than one about common sense legislation concerning universal background checks and a limit of the capacity of magazines.

Those 20 plus kids were all shot with handguns NOT "assault rifles with large magazines" So what's all the hysteria about these new laws that need to be passed? It wouldn't have stopped anything.

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[tony286]

Countries have gun bans and have just as much freedom as we do.i dont think we should ban anything but tighten up the regulations big time and mandatory classes if you want a gun.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by tony286

Countries have gun bans and have just as much freedom as we do.i dont think we should ban anything but tighten up the regulations big time and mandatory classes if you want a gun.

And leave criminals on the streets alongside the mental fuckups that are responsible for this debate. Yep me sitting in a class about guns that will take care of it.


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[Shotsie]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

It's the government remember. Once restrictions start where will it end? There are already mandatory background checks to purchase a firearm.

Really?

So, say I was in Florida and I wanted to buy your Uzi off of you, say you had it up for sale on a site like this one here:

http://floridaguntrader.com/

You're saying I would have to submit to a background check? Bullshit. I could meet you in a fucking Publix parking lot and buy that Uzi off of you with cash, no I.D., no receipt of sale, no background check, nothing - and it would be perfectly legal. It is that easy to buy a gun in Florida. Like walking into a store and buying a candy bar.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by Shotsie

Really?

So, say I was in Florida and I wanted to buy your Uzi off of you, say you had it up for sale on a site like this one here:

http://floridaguntrader.com/

You're saying I would have to submit to a background check? Bullshit. I could meet you in a fucking Publix parking lot and buy that Uzi off of you with cash, no I.D., no receipt of sale, no background check, nothing - and it would be perfectly legal. It is that easy to buy a gun in Florida. Like walking into a store and buying a candy bar.

Backyard gun sales are like drug deals. No one will ever fully curtail them. Not one person I know has bought a like you are describing but I see your point.

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[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

It's the government remember. Once restrictions start where will it end?

.

Right. They slapped up those 65mph speed limits on the interstate and they're constantly trying to lower it to 45.

They tell us we can't drive when intoxicated. What's next? We can't drive when hungry?

They tell us we can't buy Oxycodone without a doctor's order. What's next? Asprin?

Stop the hysteria.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

Right. They slapped up those 65mph speed limits on the interstate and they're constantly trying to lower it to 45.

They tell us we can't drive when intoxicated. What's next? We can't drive when hungry?

They tell us we can't buy Oxycodone without a doctor's order. What's next? Asprin?

Stop the hysteria.

My god ??..

.

[DTK]

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

Right. They slapped up those 65mph speed limits on the interstate and they're constantly trying to lower it to 45.

They tell us we can't drive when intoxicated. What's next? We can't drive when hungry?

They tell us we can't buy Oxycodone without a doctor's order. What's next? Asprin?

Stop the hysteria.

You jumped the shark a little there, Grant

[L-Pink]

A kid with mental problems murders 20 some people in a school using handguns. The government responds by making a production of banning assault rifles and high capacity magazines as a solution to the problem.

Just wait until this same logic is applied to censoring the internet or porn industry maybe then some of you will get the point about government intrusion.

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[Killswitch]

[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by DTK

You jumped the shark a little there, Grant

My point is there are TONS of limits on us already, and few would argue that they're a bad idea. And they DON'T lead to ever-tighter tighter restrictions.

Licenses
Speed limits
Drugs
Noise limits

These limits are put in place (ostensibly) to keep everyone safe. They don't lead to tighter restrictions - if anything, the opposite is true.

Two examples: Recreational use of pot is now legal in at least 1 state. The speed limit has gone UP, not down, since the 1970s.

This "slippery slope" argument is silly.

[DTK]

Originally Posted by GrantMercury

My point is there are TONS of limits on us already, and few would argue that they're a bad idea. And they DON'T lead to ever-tighter tighter restrictions.

Licenses
Speed limits
Drugs
Noise limits

These limits are put in place (ostensibly) to keep everyone safe. They don't lead to tighter restrictions - if anything, the opposite is true.

Two examples: Recreational use of pot is now legal in at least 1 state. The speed limit has gone UP, not down, since the 1970s.

This "slippery slope" argument is silly.

My point is that you introduced a bunch of false equivalence arguments. leave that to people with fewer brain cells firing

[Shotsie]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Backyard gun sales are like drug deals. No one will ever fully curtail them. Not one person I know has bought a like you are describing but I see your point.

.

No, it's nothing like a drug deal; it's perfectly legal. If a cop rolled up on you selling me a nick bag of weed in a liquor store parking lot in Florida, you'd be arrested, charged, and probably wind up with probation and a hefty fine. If a cop rolled up on you selling me a fucking Uzi in a liquor store parking lot in Florida, he wouldn't be able to say a thing, because there is absolutely no regulation on private firearm deals in that state - you can buy, sell, and trade anything you want as long as it's not an illegal weapon. Same thing in Arizona, Alaska, Vermont, and probably a couple of other states I don't know of.


Combine that with the "stand your ground" laws they have down there that enable anybody with a gun (which is over 2 million people in Florida) to shoot someone in the face if they even look at them sideways with no legal repercussions, and people wonder why Florida is such a fucking cesspool. Why every time you turn on the news down there someone is getting shot over a parking spot, or a road rage incident, or someone's running up in a gas station with an AK-47... and it's not like in the Northeast where that kind of shit is relegated to the worst ghetto neighborhoods because of stricter gun control laws - that shit goes on in Hallandale, Boca Raton, all over the place.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

And leave criminals on the streets alongside the mental fuckups that are responsible for this debate. Yep me sitting in a class about guns that will take care of it.


.

First the guns used were all legally purchased. Nut jobs wont be able to sit and function thru a class. The movie theater guy got thrown out of gun shop but was able to buy online. A class would get rid of that, also the I have kill someone now. If you first have to go thru a 8 week class to buy a gun. It gets rid of alot of that. Ban none of it but give it the respect it should carry. Also 80 percent of illegal guns come from gun dealers. You tightened that up, all those criminals have alot less guns.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Backyard gun sales are like drug deals. No one will ever fully curtail them. Not one person I know has bought a like you are describing but I see your point.

.

Oh they could change that if you had to register each gun every year and you would be answerable if all of a sudden you didnt have that gun anymore.

[bronco67]

There's some paranoid people out there trying to spread as much fear as possible to dimwitted morons who will easily buy into it. The ones who get suckered in aren't putting their most feared scenario into perspective. There is no universe we exist in where the government will be coming to take your guns away. The government doesn't want to for one thing, and even if they did they'd never get past the idea that many people would die during the "government gun grab". It's a fairy tale.

The people crying about Obama trying to end the second ammendment -- I'll bet putting things in perspective is not something they do often.

[arock10]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Backyard gun sales are like drug deals. No one will ever fully curtail them. Not one person I know has bought a like you are describing but I see your point.

.

Private gun sales are totally legal in my state too. The only thing you can't do is sell a gun to someone you KNOW is a felon. But you don't have to do any background checks or anything. The only guns that have to be registered are machine guns too, everything else is free game. It takes two hours of education and $50 to apply for a conceal permit too. That's it

Yeah, gun controls waaay too strict. *sob uncontrollably

[DamianJ]

[Tom_PM]

Does "well armed militia" mean you can own anything that is made to kill? Your rights are already restricted. It's the governments job to govern, which is synonymous with restrict.

[adulttraffic]

All these new laws obama is planning to pass is simply for him to look good in the public eyes. As stated above their is already millions of high capacity magazines in circulation with guns that use them. These laws will do nothing to stop people from using them to kill people..... that boat sailed in 1984

[Shotsie]

Originally Posted by adulttraffic

All these new laws obama is planning to pass is simply for him to look good in the public eyes. As stated above their is already millions of high capacity magazines in circulation with guns that use them. These laws will do nothing to stop people from using them to kill people..... that boat sailed in 1984

Gotta start somewhere.


To answer the OPs original question: If "liberty" requires the meaningless deaths of innocent school children, mall shoppers, etc. on a daily basis (919 firearm related deaths since the Newtown massacre) then what real value can you ascribe to it? For the majority of the people arguing against ALL firearm regulation, it's about preserving their right to plink fucking tin cans and shoot paper targets on the weekend at the expense of other citizen's lives. They are not going to have to defend their property from "Road Warrior" type gangs anytime soon. Nor are they going to stage an armed insurrection against the tyrannical government of that Kenyan born Muslim Nazi Communist Obama dat gonna take all der freedums. Is Obama full of shit? Yes. But he is not a Kenyan born Muslim Nazi Communist trying to usher in a New World Order.


Anyway, fuck some idealogue's puratanical belief in platonic "liberty", I value the health of the nation. I, myself, value the idea of a society in which we pursue policies and purposes that are to the health and benefit of every citizen. The point of nationhood is not merely to provide liberty to the lives of its citizens, but also to create a viable, functional state in which the welfare of all is considered and addressed. If some asshole's idea of personal liberty requires constant death, pain, and brutalization of those less fortunate; and that asshole is unwilling to exchange even a modicum of personal independence to benefit the nation as a whole... well, then I would say I no longer have much use for the term liberty. Of course, I'm full of shit - I have tons of beliefs and convictions and I live by none of them.

[GrantMercury]

Originally Posted by DTK

My point is that you introduced a bunch of false equivalence arguments. leave that to people with fewer brain cells firing

Ok, but they are all examples of limits placed on the populace by the government. All of them are totally sensible, and none of them have resulted in overreach. So why would it be any different with guns?