U.S. Lies Shouldn't be leading us into Battle Again!!! - GoFuckYourself.com

wonton · 02-19-2003, 01:05 PM

Nope. This is not going to be an anti-American rant, since I am one.

But I just thought that this Canadian article is bang on and raises some valid points. Yep those Canadians are a bunch of socialist wimps but every now and then they come up with some valid crticisms of U.S. foreign policy....

Toronto Star article

For those too lazy to click:

U.S. lies shouldn't be leading us into battle again

MICHELE LANDSBERG

So you wonder why so many Canadians are opposed to the U.S. plans to attack Iraq? It's not that we're weak-kneed wimps of Canuckistan, or bleeding-heart pacifists, or saps who actually believe Saddam, to repeat some of the more boorish epithets.

Whatever our other reasons for opposing the war, we're also skeptics, remembering the long history of official lies that have served as a smokescreen for U.S. government adventurism in other places and times.

Some of us remember Cuba, and how mighty America and its CIA planned an invasion of that little island after Fidel Castro came to power. Their tragically botched attack in 1961, when more than 100 commandoes died senselessly at the Bay of Pigs, is not forgotten.

I've been browsing some of the declassified documents that record the actual top-secret conversations of the most powerful men in America, then and afterward, in their obsessive and ludicrous attempts to invent a plausible reason to launch a major military attack on Cuba.

In March, 1962, for example, the top officials of the Joint Chiefs of Staff met in Washington to come up with ideas "which would provide justification for U.S. military intervention in Cuba." Operation Mongoose, it was called. (Presumably, Castro was the cobra).

To destroy Castro was a government obsession. "...All else is secondary, no time, money, effort or manpower is to be spared" said a White House memo.

They plotted to destroy Cuba's sugar crop or to contaminate food supplies, in order to provoke the lamentably "apathetic" Cubans to rebel, rise up and call in American troops to help them overthrow Castro. They thought of creating "at least the illusion of a popular [anti-Castro] movement," for want of a real one.

According to these archived documents, the Americans were prepared to do anything: invade Guatemala with soldiers disguised as Cubans, blow up one of their own warships in Guantanamo Bay and stage a fake funeral for the `victims', and even rig up an elaborate phoney attack on a tourist charter flight (complete with airplane debris floating in the ocean) to persuade the United Nations and world public opinion that the U.S. was "suffering justifiable grievances". They went so far as to consider mounting a terrorism campaign against Cuban exiles in Miami, even wounding some people and "widely publicizing" the incidents as caused by Castro. Or ? and please listen to the jaunty language ? "We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated)."

These covert operations, including "a build-up of seemingly unrelated incidents", would, they vowed, create an image of the Cuban government as "rash and irresponsible ... an alarming and unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere".

Does any of this sound hauntingly familiar? Is there any echo with the current depiction of Iraq as demonically dangerous?

For much of the last half of the 20th century, American presidents and their chief advisers and military leaders were directly involved in elaborate schemes of drug-running, manipulating public opinion through planted editorials and news stories, and illicit campaigns of what they themselves called "White propaganda," like the now-notorious episode of the hoked-up Iraqi atrocities against incubator babies in Kuwait, a crime invented by a powerful public relations firm and used to sway Congress to support the Gulf War.

I needn't remind Star readers about the government crimes of the Iran-Contra gun-running scandal, ruthlessly designed to overturn the elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua by organizing and arming the Contra opposition. Browse the National Security Archives and you can eavesdrop directly on these ruthless conspirators as they plotted to use the U.S. media to vilify their enemies and whitewash their chosen henchmen.

But don't stop there. Go ahead and read the transcript of the meeting at the White House in September, 1970.They were all there: Nixon, his vice-president, the heads of the CIA and the military. Henry Kissinger spelled out how they must "bring down" Salvador Allende, the newly elected democratic socialist president of Chile. They all agreed to subvert Allende by sabotaging the Chilean economy, while (and Nixon insisted on this) behaving publicly "in a cool and correct manner".

Allende, of course, was duly murdered three years later in a coup orchestrated by the CIA, which ushered in the 17-year bloody dictatorship by mass murderer Augusto Pinochet.

The history of U.S. foreign policy is paradoxical: so much bush-league covert action, so many lies, so many failures, so little understanding of consequences, so many botched interventions. And yet, such openness. What other regime would make its top secret documents available through freedom of information laws, to be read on the Internet by anyone with an inquiring mind?

Perhaps U.S. leaders can afford to be so open because they believe their citizens to be infinitely manipulable through the obligingly docile media. The patriotic American public, after all, bought the lies about the Gulf of Tonkin (a supposed attack on U.S. warships that actually never happened), precipitating the disastrous Vietnam War. They believed the TV version of the Gulf War, with "smart bombs" zipping through windows to kill only bad guys.

And for all I know, they believe the charade that Saddam Hussein is linked to Al Qaeda. The U.S. media have almost turned themselves into an arm of government propaganda.

They're still repeating the mantra that "Saddam gassed his own people," even though the senior CIA political analyst in Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has recently written ? in the New York Times, no less ? that the Kurdish civilians who died in that attack were killed by a poison gas that only Iran had at that time. They even believe that Saddam wilfully marched into Kuwait as some sort of unprovoked Hitlerian aggressor, despite the well-documented history of the border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait that goes back at least to the time of World War I.

Most Canadians, however, don't buy the idea that Saddam, however vicious a dictator, poses an imminent threat to world peace or safety, any more than Fidel Castro did.

History is just too heavy with fateful lies ? lies that led to too many millions of needless deaths ? for skeptical Canadians to agree to go to war at the behest of George Dubya Bush.

[Labret] · 02-19-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

weak-kneed wimps of Canuckistan

Canuckistan. I like that.

D_Nell · 02-19-2003, 01:33 PM

1991 Over 200,000 Iraqi soldiers die.
26 Casualties for the US. We know we'll win and we need to take care of Sadaam now before its too late.

I'm tired of all the people against war. Ever watch movies about the end of the world or read books.

Well what happens when they to do get a Nuclear bomb and assemble here in the United States. Should we wait again.
I don't think so. For the first time we are taking action before something bigger happens and its about god damn time.

This guy is crazy, kils his own people and is trying to get the last product he needs to assemble his nuclear weapon. Its a matter of time before the Crazy Mofo sends it somewhere and detinates it.

So to all you protestors WAKE THE FUCK UP. This is real shit and its only going to get easier for 3rd world countries to access Nuclear Technology.
For all you PUNX against war like I saw in New York and protestors YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND WHEN NEW YORK OR LA OR SAN FRANCISCO IS WIPED OUT! JUST A MATTER OF TIME PEOPLE WAKE THE FUCK UP GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES AND FUCKING THINK IF 9/11 HAD A NUCLEAR WEAPON ON THE PLANE.

THAT WILL MAKE YOU THINK!

Socks · 02-19-2003, 01:41 PM

For the life of me, I can't understand why people think we're so "good" now. We're not. We're vicious, ruthless, and will wipe ourselves out rather spectacularly. Every other animal on earth comes to an equilibrium with it's environment a friend told me.. But we're the only ones with DVD players and heating I say.

What do you think, we're all just going to be comfy with our borders forever? Come off it.

Backov · 02-19-2003, 01:43 PM

Yes, because oppressing their neighbors always makes terrorists happy and not want to bomb the shit out of the US EVEN MORE.

If anything, this bit of US imperialism will create more terrorists.

Cheers,
Backov

CDSmith · 02-19-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wonton
The history of U.S. foreign policy is paradoxical: so much bush-league covert action, so many lies, so many failures, so little understanding of consequences, so many botched interventions. And yet, such openness. What other regime would make its top secret documents available through freedom of information laws, to be read on the Internet by anyone with an inquiring mind?

So, let me see if I can sum this article up here....

Because a US administration 40 years ago did what they had to to do in the face of a possible unacceptable nuclear threat happening right on their doorstep, we should now suspect that an entirely different administration in an entirely different political world arena is up to the exact same tactics?

Right. Gotcha boss.

For the record, although this dipshit thinks she speaks for all Canuckistanies..... she doesn't.

wonton · 02-19-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
So, let me see if I can sum this article up here....

Because a US administration 40 years ago did what they had to to do in the face of a possible unacceptable nuclear threat happening right on their doorstep, we should now suspect that an entirely different administration in an entirely different political world arena is up to the exact same tactics?

Right. Gotcha boss.

For the record, although this dipshit thinks she speaks for all Canuckistanies..... she doesn't.

The journalist is not just talking about Bay of Pigs but also about stuff that happened not too long ago (Iran-Contra) by different administrations and that follow the same pattern of lies.

DrGuile · 02-19-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by D_Nell
1991 Over 200,000 Iraqi soldiers die.
26 Casualties for the US. We know we'll win and we need to take care of Sadaam now before its too late.

I'm tired of all the people against war. Ever watch movies about the end of the world or read books.

Well what happens when they to do get a Nuclear bomb and assemble here in the United States. Should we wait again.
I don't think so. For the first time we are taking action before something bigger happens and its about god damn time.

This guy is crazy, kils his own people and is trying to get the last product he needs to assemble his nuclear weapon. Its a matter of time before the Crazy Mofo sends it somewhere and detinates it.

So to all you protestors WAKE THE FUCK UP. This is real shit and its only going to get easier for 3rd world countries to access Nuclear Technology.
For all you PUNX against war like I saw in New York and protestors YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND WHEN NEW YORK OR LA OR SAN FRANCISCO IS WIPED OUT! JUST A MATTER OF TIME PEOPLE WAKE THE FUCK UP GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES AND FUCKING THINK IF 9/11 HAD A NUCLEAR WEAPON ON THE PLANE.

THAT WILL MAKE YOU THINK!

Wether you are for or against the war, this has to be the worst goddamn brainwashed reason.

a. There is no terrorist act on US soil linked to IRAQ or saddam hussein.

b. There will be once you wipe out most of IRAQ and pissoff all of the muslim.

ElvisManson · 02-19-2003, 02:27 PM

No one in Toronto with a brain reads her Articles....lol

Michelle Landsberg is a fucking loon.

CDSmith · 02-19-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ElvisManson
No one in Toronto with a brain reads her Articles....lol

Michelle Landsberg is a fucking loon.

There we go. As I suspected.

We have one here too, her name is Lindor Reynolds......... big opinionated flake.

CDSmith · 02-19-2003, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile
a. There is no terrorist act on US soil linked to IRAQ or saddam hussein.

That's really not the point of anything going on right now. The reason for an aggressive stance isn't out of retribution, but rather it is a pre-emptive measure to ensure Saddam can no longer fuck with the world or his neighboring countries or his own people. Get a clue.

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile
b. There will be once you wipe out most of IRAQ and pissoff all of the muslim.

Yes, let's run and hide because of what they "might" do. Good plan.... show weakness to the fanatics of the world. Yap, you win for best plan of the year so far.

Socks · 02-19-2003, 02:42 PM

CDSmith, if I move my company to Winnipeg from Toronto, do you think that would be a smart move? I'm considering it over the next year or so

CDSmith · 02-19-2003, 03:16 PM

Depends on a lot of things in your life, but yeah, I'd have to say it's a good move. Definitely your cost of living and any overhead costs you might have will be SIGNIFICANTLY lowered by moving here.

FATPad · 02-19-2003, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wonton
They even believe that Saddam wilfully marched into Kuwait as some sort of unprovoked Hitlerian aggressor, despite the well-documented history of the border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait that goes back at least to the time of World War I.

Everytime you post I get a good laugh. ;)

So let me get this straight.

We can't invade Iraq because you are not satisfied with the reasons and there is no concrete "proof" that measures up to your standards.

Yet, you have no concrete proof that we're going to invade Iraq for reasons other than the stated ones? You're only proof that the govt is lying is documents about something that happened 40 years ago?

We can't invade because we have no "proof" yet we can say the govt is lying to us and this is sort of conspiracy for world domination with no proof?

You're funny.

Rose · 02-19-2003, 03:24 PM

Dont read Toronto Star

it's a stupid pinko liberal paper.
Read Toronto Sun

directfiesta · 02-19-2003, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
Yes, let's run and hide because of what they "might" do. Good plan.... show weakness to the fanatics of the world. Yap, you win for best plan of the year so far.

It's all about what he " might do" ....

North Korea "might " do
Iran "might " do
Yemen ( importing North Korea missiles) "might " do
Saudia Arabia "might " do
Pakistan "might " do
Oklahoma "might " do...... didn't they???

XXXManager · 02-19-2003, 03:43 PM

BORING
Anyway - How do you know its lies? you are an intelligence agent? Someone called you and told you the truth? Or you saw it on CNN? Or you are just an anti-US conspirecy theorist?

ryph · 02-19-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta

It's all about what he " might do" ....

North Korea "might " do
Iran "might " do
Yemen ( importing North Korea missiles) "might " do
Saudia Arabia "might " do
Pakistan "might " do
Oklahoma "might " do...... didn't they???

We'll get to them too. But who are you (or anyone else for that matter) to say where our priorities are?

Rose · 02-19-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by XXXManager
Or you are just an anti-US conspirecy theorist?

Interlude · 02-19-2003, 03:52 PM

I'm not exactly the biggest supporter of this war, but people like this in the anti-war camp just strain the credibility of everyone else. Sorta like going to a protest and finding the inevitable communists, anarchists and assorted whackjobs that show up at every demonstration to push their agendas.

JeremySF · 02-19-2003, 03:56 PM

Point #1

I'm for the war, but I have to admit you're right. Evidence of an Al-Qaeda/Saddam connection is unconvincing. Although, Saddam has long been linked to terrorism. He's been supporting Palestinian terrorism for years, and in fact, giving $25,000 bounties to the families of suicide bombers.

Point #2

Yes, in the short-term there does lie the possibility of more terrorism as these fuckers get even more angry.

However, the case for going to war (or using force) is simple: Iraq has been playing this bullshit cat and mouse game the weapons inspectors for 12/13 years. If they don't have anything to hide, then what the fuck, let the inspectors do their job unobstructed! And the fact that Saddam is brutal dictator who has used force time and again on his own people is even more reason to oust him....yes, of course, there's other dictators that we haven't gone after, but they didn't promise to disarm and allow weapons inspectors.

Quote:

Originally posted by DrGuile

Wether you are for or against the war, this has to be the worst goddamn brainwashed reason.

a. There is no terrorist act on US soil linked to IRAQ or saddam hussein.

b. There will be once you wipe out most of IRAQ and pissoff all of the muslim.

JeremySF · 02-19-2003, 04:03 PM

Every situation warrants a different strategy....it's not cookie cutter...at the end of the day you have to be practical....what works for one country may not work for another. N. Korea already has nukes, which makes it a whole harder for us to deal with them. Should we wait until Saddam has nukes as well????

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta

It's all about what he " might do" ....

North Korea "might " do
Iran "might " do
Yemen ( importing North Korea missiles) "might " do
Saudia Arabia "might " do
Pakistan "might " do
Oklahoma "might " do...... didn't they???

XXXManager · 02-19-2003, 04:10 PM

I think we all don't really know the facts to be calling anyone a lier. US is not lying to anyone. Its just not showing what it knows. Why you ask? Because they don't give a fuck (atm) about what you all think

They know there is a big enough support to going out and disarming a tyran dictator which hurts his people more than the US bombs will.
Unconvincing links to Al-Quaida or no proof for weapons of mass destruction are just that - lack of knowledge.

It will be interesting to see. Saddam says he has no long range missiles. That means he will not be able to fire at Israel. Are all those who are saying Sammam is an innocent little hummingbird and should be left alon wanna bet he will miraculously gonna find somewhere some forgotten missles he forgot to tell the inspectors about??

Scootermuze · 02-19-2003, 04:24 PM

Not sure if anyone recalls (when Daddy Bush was president) the young girl that came over from Kuwait and told of the Iraqi soldiers taking babies from incubators, putting them on the floor to die, and taking away the incubators..

Bush used this story time and time again in his quest to gain support for Desert Storm..

Come to find out, the girl was the daughter of some upper eschelon woman in Kuwait.. was sent here and trained by some company that coached her on how to make her story appear sincere..

All lies.. Soldiers never did that.. Just another situation where lies were used to try to manipulate the American people for support.

Do we really know what's goin on over there? Other than what OUR news media tells us? It seems that the media from other countries tell a bit of a different story in some cases..

Just because political higher ups say it's so doesn't mean it is..

directfiesta · 02-19-2003, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scootermuze
Not sure if anyone recalls (when Daddy Bush was president) the young girl that came over from Kuwait and told of the Iraqi soldiers taking babies from incubators, putting them on the floor to die, and taking away the incubators..

Bush used this story time and time again in his quest to gain support for Desert Storm..

Come to find out, the girl was the daughter of some upper eschelon woman in Kuwait.. was sent here and trained by some company that coached her on how to make her story appear sincere..

All lies.. Soldiers never did that.. Just another situation where lies were used to try to manipulate the American people for support.

Do we really know what's goin on over there? Other than what OUR news media tells us? It seems that the media from other countries tell a bit of a different story in some cases..

Just because political higher ups say it's so doesn't mean it is..

100% right. It was big NEWS!!! till the truth came out. But damage was done...

CDSmith · 02-19-2003, 04:37 PM

No one here is privy to the kind of intel information that the president is. The US government can't just go tossing out all the *proof* that you people seem to think is your god-given right to know about, without putting many American lives at risk. There are people over in other countries right now that are in deep cover, risking their necks to send back this information.

Governments of free countries in the modern world are entrusted to do what is right for that country. (dictatorships are not). If it proves out that Bush is wrong, then he and his administration will suffer for it. I'm sure he knows this, so I'm equally sure that he will do everything in his power to NOT make a mistake.

Again, none of you (especially including the idiots) are privy to the intelligence information that the President has. They don't "owe you a peek" at that intel. Don't like it? Tough shit.

directfiesta · 02-19-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CDSmith
No one here is privy to the kind of intel information that the president is. The US government can't just go tossing out all the *proof* that you people seem to think is your god-given right to know about, without putting many American lives at risk. There are people over in other countries right now that are in deep cover, risking their necks to send back this information.

Governments of free countries in the modern world are entrusted to do what is right for that country. (dictatorships are not). If it proves out that Bush is wrong, then he and his administration will suffer for it. I'm sure he knows this, so I'm equally sure that he will do everything in his power to NOT make a mistake.

Again, none of you (especially including the idiots) are privy to the intelligence information that the President has. They don't "owe you a peek" at that intel. Don't like it? Tough shit.

Where did you get this info???

DavePlays · 02-19-2003, 07:55 PM

Oh no - they hit us once but let's not make them mad or they might hit us again....

What a crock of panzy-ass shit -

We should have blown their sorry asses away two days before the UN knew their fucking coffee was ready and been done with it.

Rochard · 02-19-2003, 09:39 PM

And once again..... More bullshit.

Nobody seems to notice that we are at war with Iraq. War is defined as "they shoot at us and we shoot at them". This is what's happening.

In Iraq the public believes that Iraq won the war, and now that the US is attacking Iraq without reason.

- Iraq invaded Kuwait for no reason.
- Iraq raped Kuwait, it's riches, it's people, and left Kuwait destroyed and it's oil fields on fire.
- Iraq gasses it's own citizens.
- Iraq fires on planes enforcing the UN no fly zones.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DO WE NEED TO INVADE IRAQ?

eRock · 02-19-2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scootermuze
Not sure if anyone recalls (when Daddy Bush was president) the young girl that came over from Kuwait and told of the Iraqi soldiers taking babies from incubators, putting them on the floor to die, and taking away the incubators..

Bush used this story time and time again in his quest to gain support for Desert Storm..

Come to find out, the girl was the daughter of some upper eschelon woman in Kuwait.. was sent here and trained by some company that coached her on how to make her story appear sincere..

All lies.. Soldiers never did that.. Just another situation where lies were used to try to manipulate the American people for support.

Do we really know what's goin on over there? Other than what OUR news media tells us? It seems that the media from other countries tell a bit of a different story in some cases..

Just because political higher ups say it's so doesn't mean it is..

ANd just cuz the media says it's true doesn't make it so either...especially when you're hearing it from another country against us. The US media is totally democratically slanted as it is! I'd believe what Bush says way before what the media is telling me. Get a clue...the media only cares about ratings & advertising $$$.

eRock · 02-19-2003, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta

Where did you get this info???

Uhhh...common knowl;edge.

DavePlays · 02-19-2003, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scootermuze
Not sure if anyone recalls (when Daddy Bush was president) the young girl that came over from Kuwait and told of the Iraqi soldiers taking babies from incubators, putting them on the floor to die, and taking away the incubators..

Bush used this story time and time again in his quest to gain support for Desert Storm..

Come to find out, the girl was the daughter of some upper eschelon woman in Kuwait.. was sent here and trained by some company that coached her on how to make her story appear sincere..

All lies.. Soldiers never did that.. Just another situation where lies were used to try to manipulate the American people for support.

Do we really know what's goin on over there? Other than what OUR news media tells us? It seems that the media from other countries tell a bit of a different story in some cases..

Just because political higher ups say it's so doesn't mean it is..

Get your facts straight man....

It was proven it was Kuwait who set that up - NOT Bush - and that was a few years ago....

this is how the bull shits just keeps coming....

DavePlays · 02-19-2003, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
And once again..... More bullshit.

Nobody seems to notice that we are at war with Iraq. War is defined as "they shoot at us and we shoot at them". This is what's happening.

In Iraq the public believes that Iraq won the war, and now that the US is attacking Iraq without reason.

- Iraq invaded Kuwait for no reason.
- Iraq raped Kuwait, it's riches, it's people, and left Kuwait destroyed and it's oil fields on fire.
- Iraq gasses it's own citizens.
- Iraq fires on planes enforcing the UN no fly zones.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DO WE NEED TO INVADE IRAQ?

Saddam ploted to assassinate an American President.

Enough is enough.

Let's light up the skys over Baghdad!!!!

FlyingIguana · 02-19-2003, 10:24 PM

saddam does pose more of a threat than castro. how many countries has cuba invaded?

stocktrader23 · 02-19-2003, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RocHard
And once again..... More bullshit.

Nobody seems to notice that we are at war with Iraq. War is defined as "they shoot at us and we shoot at them". This is what's happening.

In Iraq the public believes that Iraq won the war, and now that the US is attacking Iraq without reason.

- Iraq invaded Kuwait for no reason.
- Iraq raped Kuwait, it's riches, it's people, and left Kuwait destroyed and it's oil fields on fire.
- Iraq gasses it's own citizens.
- Iraq fires on planes enforcing the UN no fly zones.

WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DO WE NEED TO INVADE IRAQ?

By that strategy how many countries don't have a reason to invade the U.S.?

DavePlays · 02-19-2003, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stocktrader23

By that strategy how many countries don't have a reason to invade the U.S.?

why do I find that so funny?

CDSmith · 02-20-2003, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by directfiesta
Where did you get this info???

You have got to be kidding me. You don't think the US president has access to classified information? You don't think the CIA has operatives in most of the world's countries?

Give your head a shake.

eRock · 02-20-2003, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stocktrader23

By that strategy how many countries don't have a reason to invade the U.S.?

When have we done any of those things?

SABAI · 02-20-2003, 02:26 AM

Quote:

by D_Nell

Ever watch movies about the end of the world or read books.

[/B]

this is your problem stop watching movies and reading tom clancy and get in the real world

02-19-2003, 01:33 PM	#3
D_Nell Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,264	1991 Over 200,000 Iraqi soldiers die. 26 Casualties for the US. We know we'll win and we need to take care of Sadaam now before its too late. I'm tired of all the people against war. Ever watch movies about the end of the world or read books. Well what happens when they to do get a Nuclear bomb and assemble here in the United States. Should we wait again. I don't think so. For the first time we are taking action before something bigger happens and its about god damn time. This guy is crazy, kils his own people and is trying to get the last product he needs to assemble his nuclear weapon. Its a matter of time before the Crazy Mofo sends it somewhere and detinates it. So to all you protestors WAKE THE FUCK UP. This is real shit and its only going to get easier for 3rd world countries to access Nuclear Technology. For all you PUNX against war like I saw in New York and protestors YOU WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND WHEN NEW YORK OR LA OR SAN FRANCISCO IS WIPED OUT! JUST A MATTER OF TIME PEOPLE WAKE THE FUCK UP GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES AND FUCKING THINK IF 9/11 HAD A NUCLEAR WEAPON ON THE PLANE. THAT WILL MAKE YOU THINK! __________________ ITS TIME FOR SOME FREEHOSTING DAMN IT! CLICK HERE! ICQ# 98081374 \| [email protected]

02-19-2003, 01:43 PM	#5
Backov Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cat Detector Van Posts: 1,600	Yes, because oppressing their neighbors always makes terrorists happy and not want to bomb the shit out of the US EVEN MORE. If anything, this bit of US imperialism will create more terrorists. Cheers, Backov __________________ <embed src="http://banners.spotbrokers.com/button.swf" FlashVars="clickURL=http://banners.spotbrokers.com" quality=high pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/index.cgi?P1_Prod_Version=ShockwaveFlash" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60"></embed>

02-19-2003, 03:16 PM	#13
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	Depends on a lot of things in your life, but yeah, I'd have to say it's a good move. Definitely your cost of living and any overhead costs you might have will be SIGNIFICANTLY lowered by moving here. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

02-19-2003, 03:24 PM	#15
Rose Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: ON,Canada Posts: 1,456	Dont read Toronto Star it's a stupid pinko liberal paper. Read Toronto Sun __________________ <a href="http://www.fpctraffic.com/webm.cgi?pppp">MAKE 4 Cents per BLIND CLICK or 2.5 Cents per RAW</a>

02-19-2003, 04:37 PM	#26
CDSmith Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: My network is hosted at TECHIEMEDIA.net ...Wait, you meant where am I located at? Oh... okay, I'm in Winnipeg, Canada. Oops. :) Posts: 51,460	No one here is privy to the kind of intel information that the president is. The US government can't just go tossing out all the proof that you people seem to think is your god-given right to know about, without putting many American lives at risk. There are people over in other countries right now that are in deep cover, risking their necks to send back this information. Governments of free countries in the modern world are entrusted to do what is right for that country. (dictatorships are not). If it proves out that Bush is wrong, then he and his administration will suffer for it. I'm sure he knows this, so I'm equally sure that he will do everything in his power to NOT make a mistake. Again, none of you (especially including the idiots) are privy to the intelligence information that the President has. They don't "owe you a peek" at that intel. Don't like it? Tough shit. __________________ *Promote Wildmatch, ImLive, Sexier.com, and more!!* ALWAYS THE HIGHEST PAYOUTS: Big Bux/ImLive SIGNUP ON NOW!!! Put some PUSSYCA$H in your pocket. ICQ me at: 31024634

02-19-2003, 01:05 PM	#1
wonton Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 802	U.S. Lies Shouldn't be leading us into Battle Again!!! Nope. This is not going to be an anti-American rant, since I am one. But I just thought that this Canadian article is bang on and raises some valid points. Yep those Canadians are a bunch of socialist wimps but every now and then they come up with some valid crticisms of U.S. foreign policy.... Toronto Star article For those too lazy to click: U.S. lies shouldn't be leading us into battle again MICHELE LANDSBERG So you wonder why so many Canadians are opposed to the U.S. plans to attack Iraq? It's not that we're weak-kneed wimps of Canuckistan, or bleeding-heart pacifists, or saps who actually believe Saddam, to repeat some of the more boorish epithets. Whatever our other reasons for opposing the war, we're also skeptics, remembering the long history of official lies that have served as a smokescreen for U.S. government adventurism in other places and times. Some of us remember Cuba, and how mighty America and its CIA planned an invasion of that little island after Fidel Castro came to power. Their tragically botched attack in 1961, when more than 100 commandoes died senselessly at the Bay of Pigs, is not forgotten. I've been browsing some of the declassified documents that record the actual top-secret conversations of the most powerful men in America, then and afterward, in their obsessive and ludicrous attempts to invent a plausible reason to launch a major military attack on Cuba. In March, 1962, for example, the top officials of the Joint Chiefs of Staff met in Washington to come up with ideas "which would provide justification for U.S. military intervention in Cuba." Operation Mongoose, it was called. (Presumably, Castro was the cobra). To destroy Castro was a government obsession. "...All else is secondary, no time, money, effort or manpower is to be spared" said a White House memo. They plotted to destroy Cuba's sugar crop or to contaminate food supplies, in order to provoke the lamentably "apathetic" Cubans to rebel, rise up and call in American troops to help them overthrow Castro. They thought of creating "at least the illusion of a popular [anti-Castro] movement," for want of a real one. According to these archived documents, the Americans were prepared to do anything: invade Guatemala with soldiers disguised as Cubans, blow up one of their own warships in Guantanamo Bay and stage a fake funeral for the `victims', and even rig up an elaborate phoney attack on a tourist charter flight (complete with airplane debris floating in the ocean) to persuade the United Nations and world public opinion that the U.S. was "suffering justifiable grievances". They went so far as to consider mounting a terrorism campaign against Cuban exiles in Miami, even wounding some people and "widely publicizing" the incidents as caused by Castro. Or ? and please listen to the jaunty language ? "We could sink a boatload of Cubans en route to Florida (real or simulated)." These covert operations, including "a build-up of seemingly unrelated incidents", would, they vowed, create an image of the Cuban government as "rash and irresponsible ... an alarming and unpredictable threat to the peace of the Western Hemisphere". Does any of this sound hauntingly familiar? Is there any echo with the current depiction of Iraq as demonically dangerous? For much of the last half of the 20th century, American presidents and their chief advisers and military leaders were directly involved in elaborate schemes of drug-running, manipulating public opinion through planted editorials and news stories, and illicit campaigns of what they themselves called "White propaganda," like the now-notorious episode of the hoked-up Iraqi atrocities against incubator babies in Kuwait, a crime invented by a powerful public relations firm and used to sway Congress to support the Gulf War. I needn't remind Star readers about the government crimes of the Iran-Contra gun-running scandal, ruthlessly designed to overturn the elected Sandinista government of Nicaragua by organizing and arming the Contra opposition. Browse the National Security Archives and you can eavesdrop directly on these ruthless conspirators as they plotted to use the U.S. media to vilify their enemies and whitewash their chosen henchmen. But don't stop there. Go ahead and read the transcript of the meeting at the White House in September, 1970.They were all there: Nixon, his vice-president, the heads of the CIA and the military. Henry Kissinger spelled out how they must "bring down" Salvador Allende, the newly elected democratic socialist president of Chile. They all agreed to subvert Allende by sabotaging the Chilean economy, while (and Nixon insisted on this) behaving publicly "in a cool and correct manner". Allende, of course, was duly murdered three years later in a coup orchestrated by the CIA, which ushered in the 17-year bloody dictatorship by mass murderer Augusto Pinochet. The history of U.S. foreign policy is paradoxical: so much bush-league covert action, so many lies, so many failures, so little understanding of consequences, so many botched interventions. And yet, such openness. What other regime would make its top secret documents available through freedom of information laws, to be read on the Internet by anyone with an inquiring mind? Perhaps U.S. leaders can afford to be so open because they believe their citizens to be infinitely manipulable through the obligingly docile media. The patriotic American public, after all, bought the lies about the Gulf of Tonkin (a supposed attack on U.S. warships that actually never happened), precipitating the disastrous Vietnam War. They believed the TV version of the Gulf War, with "smart bombs" zipping through windows to kill only bad guys. And for all I know, they believe the charade that Saddam Hussein is linked to Al Qaeda. The U.S. media have almost turned themselves into an arm of government propaganda. They're still repeating the mantra that "Saddam gassed his own people," even though the senior CIA political analyst in Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war has recently written ? in the New York Times, no less ? that the Kurdish civilians who died in that attack were killed by a poison gas that only Iran had at that time. They even believe that Saddam wilfully marched into Kuwait as some sort of unprovoked Hitlerian aggressor, despite the well-documented history of the border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait that goes back at least to the time of World War I. Most Canadians, however, don't buy the idea that Saddam, however vicious a dictator, poses an imminent threat to world peace or safety, any more than Fidel Castro did. History is just too heavy with fateful lies ? lies that led to too many millions of needless deaths ? for skeptical Canadians to agree to go to war at the behest of George Dubya Bush.

02-19-2003, 01:41 PM	#4
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,475	For the life of me, I can't understand why people think we're so "good" now. We're not. We're vicious, ruthless, and will wipe ourselves out rather spectacularly. Every other animal on earth comes to an equilibrium with it's environment a friend told me.. But we're the only ones with DVD players and heating I say. What do you think, we're all just going to be comfy with our borders forever? Come off it.

02-19-2003, 02:27 PM	#9
ElvisManson Looking California Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 5,476	No one in Toronto with a brain reads her Articles....lol Michelle Landsberg is a fucking loon.

02-19-2003, 02:42 PM	#12
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,475	CDSmith, if I move my company to Winnipeg from Toronto, do you think that would be a smart move? I'm considering it over the next year or so

02-19-2003, 03:43 PM	#17
XXXManager So Fucking Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy Posts: 893	BORING Anyway - How do you know its lies? you are an intelligence agent? Someone called you and told you the truth? Or you saw it on CNN? Or you are just an anti-US conspirecy theorist?

02-19-2003, 03:52 PM	#20
Interlude Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: State of Denial Posts: 1,147	I'm not exactly the biggest supporter of this war, but people like this in the anti-war camp just strain the credibility of everyone else. Sorta like going to a protest and finding the inevitable communists, anarchists and assorted whackjobs that show up at every demonstration to push their agendas.

02-19-2003, 04:10 PM	#23
XXXManager So Fucking Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy Posts: 893	I think we all don't really know the facts to be calling anyone a lier. US is not lying to anyone. Its just not showing what it knows. Why you ask? Because they don't give a fuck (atm) about what you all think They know there is a big enough support to going out and disarming a tyran dictator which hurts his people more than the US bombs will. Unconvincing links to Al-Quaida or no proof for weapons of mass destruction are just that - lack of knowledge. It will be interesting to see. Saddam says he has no long range missiles. That means he will not be able to fire at Israel. Are all those who are saying Sammam is an innocent little hummingbird and should be left alon wanna bet he will miraculously gonna find somewhere some forgotten missles he forgot to tell the inspectors about??

02-19-2003, 04:24 PM	#24
Scootermuze Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 4,513	Not sure if anyone recalls (when Daddy Bush was president) the young girl that came over from Kuwait and told of the Iraqi soldiers taking babies from incubators, putting them on the floor to die, and taking away the incubators.. Bush used this story time and time again in his quest to gain support for Desert Storm.. Come to find out, the girl was the daughter of some upper eschelon woman in Kuwait.. was sent here and trained by some company that coached her on how to make her story appear sincere.. All lies.. Soldiers never did that.. Just another situation where lies were used to try to manipulate the American people for support. Do we really know what's goin on over there? Other than what OUR news media tells us? It seems that the media from other countries tell a bit of a different story in some cases.. Just because political higher ups say it's so doesn't mean it is..

02-19-2003, 07:55 PM	#28
DavePlays Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: West (by God) Virginia Posts: 1,088	Oh no - they hit us once but let's not make them mad or they might hit us again.... What a crock of panzy-ass shit - We should have blown their sorry asses away two days before the UN knew their fucking coffee was ready and been done with it. __________________ THE BEST CONVERTING TGP If I were only going to submit to one TGP, it would be BOOK-MARK.NET.

02-19-2003, 09:39 PM	#29
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 74,549	And once again..... More bullshit. Nobody seems to notice that we are at war with Iraq. War is defined as "they shoot at us and we shoot at them". This is what's happening. In Iraq the public believes that Iraq won the war, and now that the US is attacking Iraq without reason. - Iraq invaded Kuwait for no reason. - Iraq raped Kuwait, it's riches, it's people, and left Kuwait destroyed and it's oil fields on fire. - Iraq gasses it's own citizens. - Iraq fires on planes enforcing the UN no fly zones. WHAT THE FUCK ELSE DO WE NEED TO INVADE IRAQ? __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

02-19-2003, 10:24 PM	#34
FlyingIguana aspiring banker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 10,870	saddam does pose more of a threat than castro. how many countries has cuba invaded?