omgt

apologies for the interruption
but this is wrong :-
"the single issue of copyright infringement (which isn't even theft"

depending on which country the act was commited and where the alleged infringer was living, but yes if you were in the wrong country selling fake nike tshirts then you may go to prison.

AutumnBH

No, the correct terminology for the crime is copyright infringement. If you steal something, you deprive the owner of any further benefit. If I steal a Nike shirt from your store, you can no longer sell it. If someone pirates a digital good, they have infringed on your intellectual property and presumably caused you some financial loss for which damages or jail time can be awarded, but they haven't "stolen" it from you because it is still there for you to sell.

If I go to the factory and steal some genuine Nike shirts then that is theft.

If I make up screen print and make my own fake Nike shirts, I am infringing on Nike's intellectual property. Their original Nike shirts are still sitting in their warehouse and I haven't stolen them. Nike can't accuse me of stealing their goods, but they can accuse me of infringing on their IP.

Look up Dowling v. United States 1985.

However "theft" has certain emotive connotations so I understand why the pornographer crew likes to bandy it around while they are on their "moral" crusade... Although it's also true that they probably aren't even aware of the legal difference.

omgt

no, this is not true at all,
you have isolated one small part of the law and said there is no act of theft committed whatever the situation.

you need to explain that to people who are in prison for copyright violation (or whatever)
if its relating to this, the usa caselaw would not apply in the eu (which is where young fabien is currently in prison)
i.e. manwin have at least one of their registered companies in the uk
copyright + patents act
theft act 1986 (as amended)
and others
the caselaw you have included is interesting, but you need to explain that to people who are in prison
if you copy a load of bootleg dvds (which is near enough to what the caselaw you included) go and sell them in a big way, then you might go to prison, you dont go to prison for civil matters you only go to prison for criminal matters.


And you are completely confused here :-
"for which damages or jail time can be awarded, but they haven't "stolen" it from you because it is still there for you to sell."


if they havent stolen it - then it is not theft and there is no prison.
if they have stolen it - then you may go to prison
you are saying "they haven't "stolen" it" BUT "jail time can be awarded"


you are confusing the issues, write to fabien (in a German prison) and tell him about some caselaw in the USA - which will be very interesting, and he will thank you for, but it wont make a lot of difference.

ps.
i dont think that caselaw would apply in this type of situation taking everything into account.


im not saying any specific person is guilty of theft, but you are saying no-one is guilty of theft in a situation like the one you mentioned, which cant be right by your own admission - because people are in prison or jail time can be awarded so there obviously is a "crime" "allegedly"

The Porn Nerd

What the fuck is going on here?
Who the FUCK has time to read all this shit?

Peace.

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omgt

only about 46,657 people - thats all - about the size of an average town.

FreewayRick

You might have a point with your other arguments, but I don't agree with this one.

The same argument has been used by feminists and other anti-porn advocates.

I think that argument is absurd.

So, they could not possibly get a "normal" job, like working at mc donalds , being a taxi driver, etc?

In other words, the porn industry is supposed to be responsible for everybody who can't work (why exactly can somebody appear in a porn movie, but it's completely out of the question to get a "normal" job? Can you give me even a hypothetical situation, where that is the case?) , and just happens to not have a rich family or husband?

Now, if we're talking about somebody who got kidnapped , or coerced in some violent way, I would say that's a desperate situation! I'm not aware of a single situation where it happened, since the modern porn industry started.


So, do you think that every McDonald's worker necessarily "wants to be there"? How about working in an assembly line, let's say for cars. 100% of those workers always "want to be there"?

If not, then why exactly is the Porn Industry the only Industry where everybody is always supposed to be happy and "wanting to be there"?

There is no other industry where this moral standard is expected. Why only the Porn Industry?


I'd guess in some cases it's possible

I looked into the case surrounding creampiethais.com...for this case I absolutely don't believe it.

So what happened is that a camera was set up (clearly visible, it wasn't a hidden cam or something of the kind). The compensation was equivalent to a month's salary for a "normal" job, if not higher.

The models never seen porn in their entire life (certainly makes sense since the majority of them are bar girls). The also do not use the internet , or are aware of internet porn (in a country with 18 million internet users, out of 67 million people in total).

I don't know why, but a certain intuition is telling me that this story does not add up.

In either case, the "investigation" was closed fairly fast , and creampiethais.com is still up and running...i guess Karma is catching up (in a positive way).

Well, who are you talking about?

At least in the USA the risk of getting STD's (including HIV) is significantly lower in the porn industry than outside of the porn industry.

"
AIM Healthcare Foundation has stated that the rate of STDs in adult film actors in production companies that follow the AIM testing protocols is 2.4%, which they state is "considerably lower than the average for sexually active young people with similar demographics."

"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AID...rat e_of_STDs

AutumnBH

I don't really understand what your point is. I assume that English is not your first language?

That case just sets the precedent for the legal definition of theft vs copyright infringement in the United States.

Copyright infringement is not theft. Copyright infringement is still a crime. Those people in jail for copyright infringement are in there for copyright infringement, not for "theft" unless they also physically stole a tangible item as part of the same crime. "Theft" may have some similarities to copyright infringement but it is only technical theft if the original owner is completely deprived of any further benefit of the goods in question.

On the internet, if I hack your server, download your content and then delete the only originals you have, that would probably be called theft. If I make a copy of your content, but you still have the original copy, then that crime is called copyright infringement.

Anyway at this stage it seems clear that Fabian's case is about tax and has nothing to do with copyright infringement.

Mutt

All those other issues have been fought over on boards for years - I used to all the time during the early years and it was pointless, in this business it's always been a scorched earth plan for many, make as much as you can any way you can and let somebody else deal with the mess.

TGP's were as bad as tubes with stolen content, AVS's were huge vaults of stolen content, CCBILL processed for ........... , MetArt at one time was ........ , fucked up drugged up girls and for that matter guys have always been part of the adult industry, nobody's saying this is a nice industry, even though there are plenty of decent enough people in it. I don't think anybody who processes with CCBILL fifteen years later has to feel shame for things done back then. In this industry you're always going to be connected to something unsavory whether you intend to or not.

People are pissed off about piracy because it's taking food out of their mouths now. Before tubes and file sharing sites there was plenty of piracy but sales remained good for people so not many people bitched. There weren't all that many people in the online industry who produced their own content, the LA adult movie studios were barely online and were the easiest to steal from without getting caught. You didn't see people stealing from Bangbros. The tubes and file sharing operators and their affiliates steal from everybody and it's killing businesses. No surprise that most people don't get indignant until they are the ones getting it up the ass.

somebody more creative than me could write a version of this for the porn industry:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

__________________

Robbie

Some of y'all have some interesting ideas about our industry.

Having been in the music business most of my life...I can tell you that the porn biz is much "cleaner".

And having a brother who is a car salesman...I can tell you that NONE of the people in the porn biz come close to what the car biz is in terms of shady deals, working as much money out of a customer on "back end", drugs, etc.

Having another brother who is a cop...and my mom was a deputy sheriff...and 2 cousins who are cops...I can tell you that the porn biz has NOTHING on the law enforcement culture for doing all kinds of crazy shit, including drug use and selling drugs.

I've been in this business a while. And was here right around the beginning of online. We ran a couple of the biggest TGP's in the world and all this talk of stolen content, blah-blah-blah is pure bullshit.

We always ran clean. Made a lot of money for the paysites we promoted. Anytime that we discovered that anyone had content that didn't belong to them...links were pulled.

Honest, clean tgp's were the big monsters of traffic. We and The Hun ran neck and neck in the 1990's as far as traffic was concerned (al4a.com was number one on Sextracker, The Hun was number two). Both of us ran clean and made a lot of money for a lot of people.

No stealing was required on our part.

To try and compare us to what Fabian is doing is total and complete bullshit being written by folks who are just plain out ignorant and either weren't in this business at the time, or didn't understand it.

P.S.: And we never went to jail

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Nickatilynx

I love the way this thread has turned.

""I have the morals I can afford" used to be my catch phrase back in the 90s.

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Robbie

The thread can get derailed, it can turn, etc.

But in REAL LIFE...Fabian is in jail. And I have a feeling that the tax charges are just something to get into the company books. That's when the shit is gonna hit the fan.

At least that what I think from watching many crime shows on t.v. lol

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DamianJ

Ain't that the truth.

It's just so easy for the fat, lazy, stupid, coke head twats to blame just piracy for their drop in sales. Not crap content, ugly models, bad sites, card banging, dialers, circle jerks, misleading tours, content rotation, download limiters, hidden cross sales etc.

Yes, in 2012 you can't be a lazy fuckwit and still make money. You have to work. Seems most people are pissed off about that.

I work with several content producers in the UK that are doing just fine. Growing month on month, year on year, making loads of money, enough to pay me to consult for them. None of them bitch about piracy! Not one. In fact, they welcome anyone to share their content anywhere because it gets them more sales.

Nickatilynx

Robbie,
I met al4a back in the day at show when I was wandering around with Greenguy...he didn't look like you. LOL

and clean?

I used to leave indexes open and get them poosted but because of the bro code ,I guess , big tgpers and link lists would email me and say "dude u left yr index open"

I would answer "Really? I'll lock that within 12 hrs of you adding the link"

and the response I would get would be " ;-) LOL..ok ,nice, nick..sneaky , but yeah give us 12 hrs"

;)

Must be a hellofa view up on that high horse , Robbie ;)

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Nickatilynx

LOL...i gotcha...totally with you , and Maybe you are right...I dunno.

but for someone like me who is bereft of any modicum of morals usually , I do have a sense of fair play.

I would like to see a court decide what if anything Fabian has done.

not a bunch of anons and surfers on gfy.

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omgt

ok, thank you for your opinion,
but suffice to say that i wont be taking legal advice from you.

you still seem to confuse some of the issues and legal technicalities, but its probably best if we agree to disagree as im tired and it would take a while to go through everything.

and i need to do a couple of things pdq.


i.e.
"On the internet, if I hack your server, download your content and then delete the only originals you have, that would probably be called theft. If I make a copy of your content, but you still have the original copy, then that crime is called copyright infringement."

i assume you are thinking of permanently deprive.

no, if you hack into someones server that is (probably) a crime

stand up in front of a jury and tell them you are innocent because you did'nt delete the owners files - they will laugh at you because its irrelevant, there are a number of offenses you could be charged with in fact people have been extradited to the USA for exactly the same thing and they did not delete any files, so you are confused again.

the jury would still be laughing at you while the van took you away.
you are over simplifying the law (being polite) and introducing a bit of caselaw that certainly wouldnt apply to the hacking situation.


"but it is only technical theft if the original owner is completely deprived of any further benefit of the goods in question."
so its not a crime to hack into someones server ? (with criminal intent)

Nickatilynx

Nice post.

All we seem to hear on a lot of threads here is the mating calls of the losers.

usually led by their king...PM.

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Nickatilynx

ooops double post.Excuse me , I'm a newb

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omgt

thats ok - your excused -you probably do a lot of work for charity

AutumnBH

I can only assume you're being deliberately obtuse. Of course the hacking part is a crime, punishable by the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act 1986 if you are in the United States. Perhaps that was a bad example to use.

The point remains:

If I use your content and you are not deprived of the continued benefit of the goods, that crime is called "copyright infringement." It is not called "theft." It is only called "theft" if you are permanently deprived of the benefit of the goods from that point on, which usually only happens with physical goods. Fabian's alleged crime is copyright infringement, not theft.

omgt

whose "pm" ?

omgt

1,000 weathers nice today

Nickatilynx

lol..

;)

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Nickatilynx

Paul Markham

;-))

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NewNick

I received a mail from Traffic Junky today asking for my VAT number.

We have not used them for over a year !

Somehow I smell a cover up.......

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DWB

Yea, we just kidnap underage bitches over here and force them into porno slavery where they fuck HIV infected guys all day and night. They have no idea what the interweb is and think DVDs are frisbees. But they do fear the camera is stealing their soul so they put up a fight at first until we get them hooked on opium. It's a tough gig.


Why u mad bro?


If I decode "Nickatilynx" it gives me "Nostradamus."

Which confirms my thoughts of you being able to see the future, because Fabian's fate being decided by a court, and not GFY, is exactly what is going to happen.

omgt

panic stations

Nickatilynx

how so..might be a coincidence.

Worse way they will be doing what any corp would be doing.Probably on advice of a team of accountants and tax lawyers.

Making sure every i is dotted and t is crossed in order to comply with every single international code in which they operate.

That would be the correct and professional action to take.

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omgt

we will have to agree to disagree then,
because the issues are getting clouded/confused.

Herrmann

Sorry to get back to topic again:

I had a good laugh when I read that. It´s the oldest pseudo-trick in the book in Europe: Just bill from another EU country. That´s guaranteed to fail, esp. in Germany, because: tax laws here say, that when work is done and paid for in Germany, it has to be taxed in Germany. That includes sales tax etc.

In Germany and Austria there´s even a "foreign workers tax" (Ausländersteuer) that has to be paid directly when for instance artists or professional athletes work in these two countries. That´s one reason why concert tickets are insanely expensive here.

If you could just pay for work done in one country from another, every Mom and Pop store would set up a fake corp. in Cyprus or another tax haven. It would also be an invitation for money laundering.

I find it hard to believe that Fabian or anyone else fell for that "trick". But, as with most of the information that´s really there it comes from one single source that was talking to "Die Welt".

GonZo

Had hoped to avoid the morality argument but I will interject this...
If one thinks its so horrible to be slinging the porn...I wonder what does this say about that person who is horrified by the notion but still willing to peddle it in order to make a buck?

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DWB

Knowing this the question must then be asked, where else have they totally screwed up?

Nickatilynx

If one has the morals one can afford , this point is mute ;-))

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JFK

can I bring a beer ?

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GonZo

I agree.
I for one wouldnt be able to work in this business at all if I was morally conflicted about it.

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xanadu

lol, especially the frisbees analogy

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xanadu

something tells me that it will go over 200k very very soon....

Hold your horses people, winter is coming ;)

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omgt

of course you can, you can bring as many as you want.

JFK

is this the Nuclear winter on Friday ?

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AutumnBH

Here is how the Thai sex industry works, for those that don't know, and an example of the dubious morality of the internet porn industry:

If you are a white man having sex with prostitutes in Thailand, and especially in the sleaze pit of Pattaya where creampiethais et. al. are filmed, then you are having sex with almost illiterate farm girls from the North East, many of whom haven't been to high school, had kid(s) extremely young, and are frequently bullied or guilt tripped in to whoring by their families back in Isaan. The girls are not "forced" into it in human trafficking terms, but are forced by circumstance and family pressure. A good chunk of Isaan families rejoice if they get a beautiful daughter because it means she's going to be shipped off for sex to earn for the family.

Fake IDs are rife and almost every brothel in Thailand has under 18s. The customers love them young. I'm not accusing anyone here of making CP but the chances that some popular Thai porn sites have under 18 models (through realistic fake IDs and not necessarily through any deliberate intent of the producers) is extremely high, in fact it's almost a certainty.

Most prostitutes are not public about what they do and there is a polite fiction that they work in a restaurant or whatever, despite the comparatively large sums of money they send home every month. Being a prostitute is instant shame and huge loss of face and once a girl is known as a hooker then no Thai man is ever going to want her as a wife, hence the fact that the girls keep it a secret. However if a woman is on a big Thai porn site then everyone knows and they are off the market for good. They'd better hope they can snag a farang husband because no Thai man is ever going to want them. So if you film a Thai girl and put it on the net, then you are basically personally responsible for consigning them to a life of single whoredom and shame among Thais.

Most younger urban Thais are on the net now (on their phones at least, the primary internet device in Thailand is a 3G phone), Facebook and social networking is massive, and everyone knows about those porn sites... It is almost a point of national shame amongst people that don't work in the sex industry. Thais also love to gossip.

Typically a sex worker works at a bar for a small salary (maybe 4000 baht per month, about $133). However to get that money she has have sex with 8 customers per month. If she gets less customers than that, she gets her salary cut. She has to turn up at 6-7pm sharp and she will docked something like 3 baht for every minute she is late. So these are women who are highly exploited by the system already. They can make a lot of money from fees from customers, gifts etc, but...

Thailand has the highest HIV rate outside Africa. Government statistics indicate that someone gets HIV in Thailand every 15 minutes, and the Thai govt is preoccupied with saving face so the real rate is probably higher. The main reason is that Thai men refuse to use condoms, and so do many Western customers. Most sex workers, being so uneducated, have only the dimmest idea of how STIs including HIV are transmitted, how pregnancy works etc. Most will be pressured into no-condom sex because they need the money so badly - with no welfare state, if you don't work, then you literally don't eat. So the chances of a white porn producer who has barebacked literally hundreds of Thai prostitutes having HIV is extremely high, much much higher than the US; but the girls don't understand the risk, and they need to get paid.

The risk is even higher if that producer barebacks trannies because of both the increased prevalence of HIV in the homosexual community and the fact that the risk of transmission skyrockets with anal sex on both the penetrative and the receptive sides.

That's not the least of it... Conservatively 50% of the sex workers in Bangkok and Pattaya are involved with yaba (amphetamine pills) or ice (meth). I could go on and on about how fucked up the Thai sex industry is... And we are only talking about the Western facing industry here, the Asian facing industry is much, much worse and is where the real human slavery happens.

Prostitution and filming porn is completely illegal in Thailand and if you want to do it on a professional scale then it requires bribes. Thus there is zero worker protection.

How do I know all this? I am not a whoremonger myself for obvious reasons, but I live in Bangkok for most of the year, I have a small stake in a bar in Soi 4 and bankrolled a friend of mine who set up a street bar on Sukhumvit.

So we have a situation where a lot of regular people might say that it is completely morally fucked up to film bareback porn in Thailand - it is basically exploitation and a huge public health risk.

Do I really care, or judge anyone who chooses to do it? No. But I find it curious that certain posters can make a living profiting from what some people might describe as human misery, whilst they rant on and on about how terrible it is to pinch a few movies.

And don't get me started on the moral quagmire of running one of the net's biggest free porn sites...

NewNick

Indeed it might be a coincidence. It might not. I would not like to be employed in the manwin accounts office right now.

But Any suggestion that Fabians incarceration is regarding his personal tax liabilities is surely now mute.

Are you a gambler ?

Would you bet on this being a coincidence ?

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omgt

come on - you cant expect people to read all of that without including any pictures.

omgt

Do you think this might be their accountant right now ?

Konda

I read an article where they had some quotes from the local news paper from the village in Belgium where he lived. They interviewed some of his neighbors and they had no clue he was a multi million dollars 'porn tycoon'. He lived in a quite modest house and was always wearing cheap looking pants and a sweaters.

notinmybackyard

If you are looking for screw ups as I said before. I know of at least 3 girls who are adults today... but have uploaded pornographic videos of themselves to tube sites when they were still minors. One of them was outright fucking her boyfriend at 15 and uploading the video to various tube sites.


I do not know which sites and I do not want to know. Buf I understand, the links are still valid.

I am sure there is more and sooner or later it will haunt the tube site owners.

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DWB

Does this mean you're pulling links?

omgt

Here ive done it for you, the cistine chappel has nothing on this
in fact im going to wallpaper a bedroom with this.

AutumnBH

No no no you've got me all wrong... With the exception of the exploitation of children, I don't really care about any of the bad shit in the porn industry. My attitude is that the opportunity is there and I may as well take advantage of it. I am just pointing out that those problems exist, they are real, anyone who has been around for a while has profited from them.

But anyone who profits from internet porn, knowing full well all the concomitant problems, and then rants about the immorality of piracy and content "theft" is a total hypocrite.

AutumnBH

No, it means you're a hypocrite.

xanadu

so true...

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DWB

Most of it.

What you wrote is the broken record story of every NGO who spent a few months here or someone who came on holiday a few times and think they are experts on everything. A few things were accurate or close enough, but most of it was rubbish and exaggerated.

Yea, that was an unexpected turn out of nowhere. I'm 'bout to start posting tranny pics up in this bitch.