That too many people have their hands out and feel it's someone elses job to pay for their stuff.

What reality do you live in where it's *cool* to be taxed another $1.6t dollars?

At this point I welcome the fiscal cliff if for no other reason than to shut up the idiots.

Nice deflection.

That's exactly why I despise wasting my time with any sort of intelligent conversation with conservatives, prove them wrong on one point and they quickly start babbling on about something else like some kind of carnival barker.

What are the deep spending cuts that the Republicans are offering?

Which tax loopholes are the Republicans putting on the table?

To say the GOP plan is better, requires a specific plan, which they refuse to offer, as they know it will be totally unacceptable.

They lost the election in 2012, and they will lose further, come 2014.

When you can't accept a 4% tax increase on your annual income of OVER $250K you can suck an egg. Cry me a fucking river. No one gives a shit about your "financial problems" - get over it!

you know what's going to happen here, the mess will just be passed along to another day, neither side wants to do what needs to be done. i wouldn't either if it wasn't my own money i'm spending and the Republicans are just as big of spendthrifts as the Democrats. as long as none of the entities who borrow the US money says 'no' they'll just keep spending.

i need to go back to YouTube and watch The Creature from Jekyl Island again - fascinating how the Federal Reserve works.

Did you read the topic of the thread.. and did you read the attached article?

Obviously not.

I heard a woman on the local talk radio show call in yesterday and she said something interesting.

She is Republican. And she said she's sick and tired of Republicans getting blamed for simply doing what their constituents voted them in to do.

She suggested that the Republicans should just vote "abstain" on everything for a while. Let the Dems successfully pass everything they want. More taxes, more spending, etc.

And then see where the chips fall.

If taxing and spending cures the countries ills...then so be it. We all win.

But if it does what common sense sort of suggests (nobody ever borrowed their way out of debt...lol), then it would all be on Democrats hands.

I think she has a good point. If it works...great! If it doesn't then the Democrats get the blame and the Republicans are no longer blamed for blocking what they don't believe in (because they would have voted "abstain"...so they don't have any responsibility one way or another for the consequences)

I don't have any financial troubles.

And I certainly don't care about your financial troubles. Earn your own money and quit expecting someone else to take care of you.

They can't do that, it's un-American.. Cutting Defense budget would cut into Boeing, General Dynamics, Halliburton's, ect.ect.. profit margin..

Don't you know the only true solution is to cut funding for Schools, Social Services and lower the pay for civil servants? I mean really we can't actually ask the wealthy, whom pay less taxes than they ever have in the last 50 years to pay a little extra. That's just un-American god damnt!

I mean really, they have the right to lower taxes, because they are rich.. It's their right to pay lower taxes because they are Rich.. The only solution is to cut teacher's pay I mean really why do they really need to make 25-35k a year? Bunch of un-grateful teachers are what is causing this country to lose it's footing as the Only super power.

You've presented another false argument, as I have never asked ANYONE to take care of me.

I don't take ANY government money at all, so I'm not certain who you are debating with.

Ridiculous, right? It's like we're living in the Twilight Zone...

That statement is beneath you.

winner winner

If anything, they should just raise the taxes by 3% or whatever for everyone, and that should settle it... after all, it's a national problem, so everyone should chip in? no?

I think the premise is that , the middle class is already paying the higher percentage. It's time that the wealthy and better off also step up to the plate and pay the same percentage.

any proof of that? I doubt that an average person making 250+k per year, pays lower percentage than someone making <250k... sure there are some unusual exceptions, but on average I really doubt that's the case...

so does anyone have any proof from a reliable source that what crockett claimed is actually the case?

So apparently... all we have to do is raise taxes and jobs will be created?

Not sure how that works. But I'm willing to give it a try. Just so long as we tax EVERYBODY.

It's too easy for people to spend and tax other people's money. I'd be curious to see how many of you will scream for higher taxes when it comes out of your own pocket. :)

This is a pretty good article on who pays what.. with some nice pretty graphs..

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505

He's talking about the capital gain tax of course. And what is always left out of that discussion is this:
If they raise the tax on capital gains, then yes...Mitt Romney will pay more in taxes.

BUT...everyone of you who have investments in the stock market will also pay more. AND all the elderly retired people with 401k investment portfolios will also pay more.

This whole "tax" argument is just stupid. Taxes don't do anything but feed the beast (the federal govt)
I personally think it is way too big. We need to starve the beast (less taxes) not feed it more.

And the first place I'd start would be the military. We don't need to have troops and bases in damn near every country in the fucking world. It's bankrupting us.

In the past it was always "Guns or Butter" (military or social spending).
With no real wars...it should be "butter" only.
And that would cut the deficit out of the picture and start repaying the damn debt...WITHOUT taxing people even MORE.

By the time I pay federal, social security, local, and sales taxes...I'm paying way over 50% of everything I make to the govt.

This just in...

Nobody gives a shit about the plight of the rich!

They've been hiding their money, paying the lowest rates in 50+ years, and the fucking country is crumbling beneath them.

98% of the people do not give a flying fuck if the rich have to cough up a few more pennies. The people are not with them on this.

REGULAR people can't make ends meet. REGULAR people can't make their mortgage payments on REGULAR homes. REGULAR kids can't pay for school, and on and on...

The "job creators" are not creating jobs in the US, and they are not paying fair wages.

Meanwhile the bankers haven't been hurt at all. Meanwhile the millionaires and billionaires want MORE government handouts! More tax breaks, more tax loopholes, more defense contracts, blah blah blah - fuck em!

No one plays the lottery and refuses a payout because the taxes on the free money is too high. Rich people crying about their plight is a fucking joke!

Nobody cares about your bullshit - they're too busy trying to keep food on the table and heat in their homes.

This argument is great for the Republicans, provided they never wish to win another election, ever!

I guess everyone I know is in the 2% and irregular.

we are discussing federal income taxes, so lets stick to that, that page is a bit too detailed and would take a whole day to analyze and comment on...


I found this instead:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...tax-rates.html

A liberal publication The New York Times shows that fourth quitile and lower income brackets pay on average 16% or less effective tax rate. Higher income brackets pay on average 21% or so.


So, what you claimed is indeed incorrect.


And that doesn't even take into the account the fact the the study is flawed, if you look carefully:
"Note: Payroll tax rates include taxes paid by employees and EMPLOYERS."


so each income bracket less than $108k should probably have 7.5% subtracted since they don't even pay half of the payroll tax, the employer covers that part... Not to mention that what they call "payroll tax" is social security contribution, which is debatable if it's a "tax" or more like forced saving for retirement... you might get good chunk of it back when you retire, so it's not 100% clear if calling it a "tax" is appropriate...

if you assume that it's not a tax, then fourth quintile and lower would pay nearly zero federal income tax...

The Republican Party..

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...68868064_n.jpg

Looking good!

You seem to not understand how things worked in business prior to Bush era tax cuts.

I'll try to make it simple because I grew up around a pretty successful small business that employed well over 100 people during the Clinton era when higher taxes were paid.

The simple fact is we likely didn't pay any more taxes under Clinton than with Bush. The reason for this is the same reason people get federal parole tax returns at the end of the year. It's called tax credits.

The basic idea is if you have no deductions, you pay the full tax percentage. Of course that means smart and successful business will do their best to have as much tax credit as possible.

What do you do to get those tax credits? Well quite simply it usually means you re-invest part of your profits back into your business. This means buying new equipment, hiring more labor or simply donating to non profit origination if you wish.

This is why you get job growth & a economy boost by paying higher taxes. To use a GFY meme "the money is in motion". This is what creates jobs because companies add labor, they buy machinery & equipment which creates jobs for the people whom built it.. ect..ect..

Of course it's a balance act and there isn't a indefinite return as to making higher & higher taxes to create jobs & economic growth but it was probably pretty close to being just right under Clinton.

Meanwhile enter the Bush tax cut era and less tax credits are needed which means less money was reinvested back into businesses because instead they could pull that money out as profits. This means less jobs are created because the money is no longer in motion and it gets carted away to some off shore tax haven or where ever money goes these days.


Simply put, just because the tax rate is higher doesn't mean you actually pay higher taxes. It just means the money instead of being taken out as profits is reinvested causing growth.

Sure, all those ultra-rich people making $250,000 yearly have been tucking away their fortunes in swiss banks.

I don't disagree. However,anyone who says they want to pay more in any kind of tax on anything clearly isn't the sharpest tack on the box.

Check out this message from the dullest tacks in the box...



https://youtube.com/watch?v=sqIgb48iq6w

crockett... I did better than most during the Clinton years.

We made millions of dollars selling paysite memberships to programs with our TGP's.

And my feeling about the Clinton years is that
1. He was an excellent and smart president.
and
2. That economic boom was NOT caused by the tax rate of the times. It was caused by the same thing that made me a millionaire: The Internet Bubble and Tech Bubble

People who don't understand how much of a boost to the economy that was in the 1990's are just ignorant. Tax rates don't do anything but feed or not feed the crooked lifetime politicians in Washington.

The mid to late 90's were all about internet and tech companies busting out by the tens of thousands.

EDIT: And one other thing...the govt. made sure to NOT tax the internet. The exact thing the Clinton administration said at the time was to not "tax the golden goose" and ruin it.

No different than Warren Buffet. They are welcome to give as much money as they want to the IRS.. But you never actually see them do that.

they should just stfu, and go here:
https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/for...ormId=23779454

feel free to go there and donate yourself too, why wait for taxes to be raised? be proactive! :winkwink:

Exactly. I've been saying this for years and nobody ever seems to mention it. During Clinton my business was bringing in over $900,000 a year and most of it was profit. After a couple of quarters of sending $100,000 checks to the IRS you look for as many deductions as possible, which meant hiring more, advertising more, more equipment, etc etc. Of course I would have rather not paid any taxes, but I've always believed it certainly helped the economy under Clinton.

Then you remember why it was so easy to make money then. If not read Robbie's post, it explains exactly why.

It was also easy for miners to make fortunes when gold was first discovered. The difference then was even after the goldrush was over,people still realized that they need to actually work to provide the basics that they needed for themselves and their family.

Let's see... your company only made $900,000 year. And you were paying over $100,000 a quarter in taxes? LOL. Okay.

So first off you were paying corporate tax of almost 50%. Yeah... And then to offset that, you decided to hire more employees and be forced by the govt. to pay matching funds on their payroll tax?

Dude, your story sounds very, very unlikely. You apparently paid WAY more in taxes than you were supposed to, and then made very foolish business decisions to offset that overpayment.
Either you aren't good at business, or this story isn't 100% accurate.

EDIT: And with you paying an apparent 50% corporate tax AND hiring people you didn't really need and paying matching funds on their payroll tax...I have to wonder how much money you had left after paying state, local, and property taxes after that. You must have lived in a shack or something and been starving to death. Cause I don't see how you had ANY money left over for profit for you and your own family.

No comment on all those filthy rich people making $250k a year?

You think the internet was the only place anyone made any money during the 90's?

You think I am going to dignify such a silly question with an answer?

The President's current proposal guarantees NO TAX RATE INCREASE on all income UP TO $250K.

$250K and below make up 98% of the working class in the US.

The Republicans can agree to this tax freeze right now, the President will sign the bill on Monday, and the fiscal cliff is not nearly as scary as it appears today.

If the Republicans in power gave a shit about anyone other than their 2% overlords this would be a done deal.

People who make over $250K p/year would still receive the tax break through the first $250K but would then have to pay an additional 4% on income above and beyond.

If this deal falls through taxes will increase for 100% of Americans, and it won't be blamed on the President.

Ha! Do you seriously think I really give a fuck what you think? Yes, the last quarter in the first couple of years I sent in over 100k because of underpaying throughout the year. As far as employees, everyone I hired was contractors. I'll pull out my old returns and show ya if you agree to let minte drop his balls in your mouth.

I still don't understand why only $250k+ income earners should pay higher taxes? raising taxes is a good idea I thought? so shouldn't everyone chip in and help?

and why is it $250k anyway? why not $200k? or $500k? seems completely arbitrary... across the board 2-3% increase would solve this problem...

(the truth is, NO ONE would support it if the tax increases effected them too...)