We ARE better off than 4 years ago!

[GrantMercury]

Romney raised the issue in his speech if we are better off than when Obama took office. Are you kidding me? Of course we are!

When Obama took office America was lying in the street dying from a near fatal wound from the last Republican president. The banking system collapsed. We were losing 750,000 jobs a month. Housing collapsed. Construction stopped. The auto industry was in a death spiral. America was in a state of complete panic. Our nation was dying under Bush.

Granted it would be nice if things were better but we're still here. If we had elected yet another Republican president there wouldn't be an America today, except for plutocrats.

I don't think Romney thought that question through, because if we remember how things were the day Obama took office there's no way we're going back there again. Why would Romney bring that up?

http://truth-out.org/buzzflash/comme...-in-the-gutter

[2intense]

[Freaky_Akula]

The Republican and Democratic Parties are actually one and the same big party. They pretend they hate each other, but behind the curtain they are all friends.

[mce]

Economy is not in so bad a shape for Obama not to get reelected.

[SmutHammer]

Thats the only thing everyone cares about? so I guess fuck your freedom right?

Oh, and no, we are not in better shape now.

[DTK]

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

Thats the only thing everyone cares about? so I guess fuck your freedom right?

Oh, and no, we are not in better shape now.

Ok Ed, I'll bite. Please name 3 freedoms you had 4 years ago that you don't have now.

[Biggy2]

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

Thats the only thing everyone cares about? so I guess fuck your freedom right?

Oh, and no, we are not in better shape now.

You are in better shape than you were 3 years ago, which is when the crisis bottomed out. When Obama took office, the economy was burning to the ground, and so was the rest of the world economy. We weren't alone in our pain then, and we won't be alone in our pain into the future.

I think if you took that question and applied it to almost any country, the answer would be the same. Seriously, what country anywhere, is thriving right now? UK + Europe are in full blown recession. China is slowing. And yes it matters. Our companies sell around the world and we live in an interconnected economy. If Greece bails, and the Euro collapses, a lot of the banks inside the US that loaned money over there are going to face some real nasty write downs, and there is *nothing* Obama or Romney can do about it, and that is easily the biggest threat to the world economy.

It's unfortunate that this issue isn't so even raised or talked about by any politician, because of the "message" they need to send out to win an election, and the stupidity of the majority of the country.

It is for this reason, and this reason only that the largest and smartest investors are PILING into GOLD. They don't give a fuck who wins the election. And these are the same guys that made a killing off of the housing collapse. The exposure of everything that happened in 2008 never left the eco-system. With all the politicking going around, it simply transferred to the world governments, who created policies to deal with the down turn, like printing unlimited amounts of money to create the confidence from fall out. This is only going to lead to a new crisis around a new and different set of parameters, like inflation, once things do turn a corner.

The future isn't pretty, and it won't matter who is in charge. But that same man will be appointing Supreme Court justices and making all sorts of other social decisions that do matter.

[DTK]

good points biggy2

what most people don't realize is how interconnected the world economy is.

the combined european GDP is about $14 Trillion, about 1/3 the total world gdp. The US GDP is about $12 Trillion, another 1/3 of world gdp. when one slows down, it has a negative effect that ripples across the globe. when they slow down in unison (including china as you mention), it's an unavoidable downward trend that is far above the silly democrat v. republican bullshit.

but good luck explaining that to low-information people who have no concept of global economics

ps. greece isn't going to be kicked out of the euro zone, and while the Euro is probably headed back to 1-1 with the dollar, they'll be ok long term. they're going to do what we ended up doing - fire up the printing press and stimulate themselves out of disaster.

[StickyGreen]

This administration passed a law which allows the indefinite detention of American citizens without trial (and they're already using it on veterans speaking out against the government). This is really all I need to know that we're not "better off."

Any time we lose our basic constitutional rights it's definitely not better, it's worse.

[DTK]

Originally Posted by StickyGreen

This administration passed a law which allows the indefinite detention of American citizens without trial (and they're already using it on veterans speaking out against the government). This is really all I need to know that we're not "better off."

Any time we lose our basic constitutional rights it's definitely not better, it's worse.

Didn't that come from the patriot act?

[StickyGreen]

Originally Posted by DTK

Didn't that come from the patriot act?

No, NDAA 2012.

[DTK]

Originally Posted by StickyGreen

No, NDAA 2012.

but we've been holding US citizens without trial since before this year, haven't we? I'm almost certain of that, but please correct me if i'm wrong.

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by DTK

but we've been holding US citizens without trial since before this year, haven't we? I'm almost certain of that, but please correct me if i'm wrong.

In May 2012 federal court issued an order blocking the indefinite detention powers of the NDAA for American citizens (section 1021) on the grounds of unconstitutionality.[20] On August 6, 2012 federal prosecutors representing President Obama and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta filed a notice of appeal with the 2nd US Circuit Court of Appeals hoping to eliminate the ban.[21][22] The following day, arguments from both sides were heard by Judge Forrest during a hearing to make her injunction permanent.[23]

oddly enough, if it comes to light that american interests are indeed using these groups as proxys, and it's definitely looking that way in light of lybia and syria, this allows legal jusitification for civil war

scary huh?

something similiar went through in canada about "citizen arrests"

so, in an extremely abstract way, we are allowed to arrest police officers

[DTK]

Richard, i'd hate to sidetrack this thread because a number of great points have been brought up, but your reply didn't answer my question.

Haven't we been holding US citizens without trial long before NDAA (which btw was a bi-partisan bill)? I'm almost certain we have...

[DTK]

.........

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by DTK

Richard, i'd hate to sidetrack this thread because a number of great points have been brought up, but your reply didn't answer my question.

Haven't we been holding US citizens without trial long before NDAA (which btw was a bi-partisan bill)? I'm almost certain we have...

it said hte bill was passed in december 2011

i am almost 100% positive that the number 2 of al qaida was killed by missile before that, and with him his son who was an american citizen

so, to answer your question as best i can, your country has been killing your citizens without trial or legitimate justification several months before this bill was passed

also, wasn't there an american in Guantanamo?

[DTK]

quick bit of research says this has been happening since the patriot act, but the ndaa made it official.

[BIGTYMER]

Originally Posted by StickyGreen

This administration passed a law which allows the indefinite detention of American citizens without trial (and they're already using it on veterans speaking out against the government). This is really all I need to know that we're not "better off."

Any time we lose our basic constitutional rights it's definitely not better, it's worse.

Got an article I can read about vets being held?

[StickyGreen]

Originally Posted by DTK

quick bit of research says this has been happening since the patriot act, but the ndaa made it official.

And what this should be illustrating is that an agenda has been slowly unfolding regardless of which "party" is in power.

[StickyGreen]

Originally Posted by BIGTYMER

Got an article I can read about vets being held?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&g...ac.ptlDFNzra04

[DTK]

Originally Posted by StickyGreen

And what this should be illustrating is that an agenda has been slowly unfolding regardless of which "party" is in power.

agreed 110%. as i've said, i wouldn't vote for either of these guys on a bet

[SmutHammer]

Another thing to add, The president of the United States is supposed to represent the people. When Hitler was starting wars, America voted that we mind our business 2x's and we did, the third time America voted to go to war, and we did... America did not want the health care system changed, Obama did not care and pushed it through... He is doing what he wants, not what the American people want. and everyone is ok with this?

[DTK]

Ed, have you come up with the 3 freedoms you had 4 years ago that you don't have now?

And please don't tell me health care, because my checkbook tells me i paid Anthem Blue Cross for my health insurance last month. I had the freedom to choose that private health care, and paid it.

[SmutHammer]

Originally Posted by DTK

Ed, have you come up with the 3 freedoms you had 4 years ago that you don't have now?

And please don't tell me health care, because my checkbook tells me i paid Anthem Blue Cross for my health insurance last month. I had the freedom to choose that private health care, and paid it.

Why does it need to be three? 1 was stated right after you asked, another is "Not being able to choose your doctor" yes sir, because of Obama care....

Not to mention the Government is now collecting on old hospital bills... Thanks to Obama, If you don't have insurance, don't go to the ER unless it is life threatening...

[SBJ]

Originally Posted by _Richard_

also, wasn't there an american in Guantanamo?

Harold & Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay?

[CurrentlySober]

Originally Posted by pornopete

currentlysober likes poo!

Thanks mate

Now if you could just be so kind as to post that in all the other threads created today, I could have a day off...

[DTK]

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

Why does it need to be three? 1 was stated right after you asked, another is "Not being able to choose your doctor" yes sir, because of Obama care....

you said this

so I guess fuck your freedom right?

and i said this

Ok Ed, I'll bite. Please name 3 freedoms you had 4 years ago that you don't have now.

People can choose their doctor exactly the same as they could before obama came into office. if i'm wrong, please correct me with an authoritative source, not just your usual 'i know it first hand' thing.

btw re: "1 was stated right after you asked" a tiny bit of research showed that indefinite detention of citizens has been going on long before the black guy came to office. the ndaa just made it official. you might try the ol' research thing before making declarative statements.

as i said in another thread, Ed...you're being grossly misinformed. i provided you with documented proof that what you were saying was factually inaccurate, but here you are, doubling down on easily disproven assertions.

[SmutHammer]

Originally Posted by DTK

you said this



and i said this



People can choose their doctor exactly the same as they could before obama came into office. if i'm wrong, please correct me with an authoritative source, not just your usual 'i know it first hand' thing.

btw re: "1 was stated right after you asked" a tiny bit of research showed that indefinite detention of citizens has been going on long before the black guy came to office. the ndaa just made it official. you might try the ol' research thing before making declarative statements.

as i said in another thread, Ed...you're being grossly misinformed. i provided you with documented proof that what you were saying was factually inaccurate, but here you are, doubling down on easily disproven assertions.

icq # 643559132 msg me I'll be happy to tell you how I know this, and why I'm against Obama being in office. just don't want shit all over the boards...

[lucas131]

i want to have your american problems

[DWB]

I think you need to carefully define better. I will rattle off the first 10 that come to mind.

1) How much debt has been added in the past four years?

2) How many American soldiers have died in the past four years?

3) How are basic human rights, such as in Gitmo or elsewhere, over the past 4 years?

4) How many innocent civilians abroad have been killed by the US military in the past 4 years?

5) Are there more or less jobs than 4 years ago?

6) Are there more or less foreclosed homes than 4 years ago?

7) Is the mental state (hope, happiness, general well being) of Americans better or worse than 4 years ago?

8) Are Americans more united or divided now or 4 years ago?

9) Do you have more or less police, TSA, check points, and protests than you did 4 years ago?

10) Is the real value of the US dollar worth more or worth less than it was 4 years ago?

Economic numbers are often played with to make them fit any agenda. You need to look at real things happening, and what you see and feel, not just what a website or media says.

[SuckOnThis]

[slapass]

Originally Posted by DWB

I think you need to carefully define better. I will rattle off the first 10 that come to mind.

1) How much debt has been added in the past four years?

2) How many American soldiers have died in the past four years?

3) How are basic human rights, such as in Gitmo or elsewhere, over the past 4 years?

4) How many innocent civilians abroad have been killed by the US military in the past 4 years?

5) Are there more or less jobs than 4 years ago?

6) Are there more or less foreclosed homes than 4 years ago?

7) Is the mental state (hope, happiness, general well being) of Americans better or worse than 4 years ago?

8) Are Americans more united or divided now or 4 years ago?

9) Do you have more or less police, TSA, check points, and protests than you did 4 years ago?

10) Is the real value of the US dollar worth more or worth less than it was 4 years ago?

Economic numbers are often played with to make them fit any agenda. You need to look at real things happening, and what you see and feel, not just what a website or media says.

Not sure on the military stuff but the economic stuff is all positive, and that is what he is saying. Yes we have more jobs. The real estate market is stable. We have more debt but is it going faster then the last guy?
I think the more interesting factor is do you think Obama had fuck all to do with the economy getting better? Will Romney? I think it is a cycle and they can maybe push it a bit but I doubt they can stop it.

[DudeRick]

Not only No... FUCK No!

[DudeRick]

[TheSquealer]

I can never decide what Canadians like to argue about more... Hockey, or US Politics

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by DTK

Didn't that come from the patriot act?

I think you are forgetting that Obama renewed the patriot act.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by SuckOnThis

So what you are saying is the Bush polices worked? I mean we have Bush to blame right?

And the Bush tax cuts worked?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121606200.html

[SuckOnThis]

Originally Posted by DudeRick

Dear Little Girl,

I'm sorry your allowance and lunch money are gone. Your parents should've put their money in an offshore tax haven and invested in Halliburton stock after 9/11. But look on the bright side, you can always get a janitorial job for 1/30 the wages of a union member.

Sincerely, Mitt Romney

[SuckOnThis]

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by SuckOnThis

Looks like those obstructionist Republicans did their job and slowed Clinton's and Obama's spending

Also looks like the less the government spends the more jobs there are?

[Tom_PM]

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

Another thing to add, The president of the United States is supposed to represent the people. When Hitler was starting wars, America voted that we mind our business 2x's and we did, the third time America voted to go to war, and we did... America did not want the health care system changed, Obama did not care and pushed it through... He is doing what he wants, not what the American people want. and everyone is ok with this?

When Truman integrated blacks into the military ending decades of segregation, 80% of active duty soldiers were against it, and so was the public.

Sometimes you have to LEAD.

[ThunderBalls]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Looks like those obstructionist Republicans did their job and slowed Clinton's and Obama's spending

Also looks like the less the government spends the more jobs there are?

No, it looks like Robme will say anything to get douche bags like you to vote for him.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by ThunderBalls

No, it looks like Robme will say anything to get douche bags like you to vote for him.

Why would you say I am voting for Romney? I was just pointing out the irony of the posts.

[DTK]

wow, NDAA passed the senate 83-13-1. I think it's only fair to call this bi-partisan tyranny.

[Barry-xlovecam]

With the exception of my equity lost in real estate financially I cannot complain at all.

My health has improved too.

The bullshit from 2006 on crippled this once great nation but with investment in our money and our efforts here we can be better than we once were.

I am bullish on America together this nation has always survived:

If you can't adapt to the new world there is a new career for you:

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by StickyGreen

This administration passed a law which allows the indefinite detention of American citizens without trial (and they're already using it on veterans speaking out against the government). This is really all I need to know that we're not "better off."

Any time we lose our basic constitutional rights it's definitely not better, it's worse.

you are correct ... this is really a major rights infrigement that the president signed.

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

Another thing to add, The president of the United States is supposed to represent the people. When Hitler was starting wars, America voted that we mind our business 2x's and we did, the third time America voted to go to war, and we did... America did not want the health care system changed, Obama did not care and pushed it through... He is doing what he wants, not what the American people want. and everyone is ok with this?

Where do you get that from ???

Obama ran on that program and got elected !!!!

[ColBigBalls]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

I can never decide what Canadians like to argue about more... Hockey, or US Politics

Hockey oct- June

Reset of the time we get to see how messed up down der de derp.

[DudeRick]

Fifty-two percent of likely voters say the nation is in ?worse condition? now than in September 2008, while 54 percent say Obama does not deserve reelection based solely on his job performance. Only 31 percent of voters believe the nation is in ?better condition,? while 15 percent say it is ?about the same,? the poll found. Just 40 percent of voters said Obama deserves reelection.

http://thehill.com/conventions-2012/...erm-undeserved

[KillerK]

There are lots of spaces for lease compared to 4 years ago, you don't see new businesses being started up.

Also, the home market is being help up do to the elections, or we'd see a lot more foreclosures.