Not one thread about Romney's acceptance speech?

[jimmy-3-way]

Originally Posted by Robbie

This has nothing to do with being a Democrat or a Republican. This has to do with firing a guy who failed at his job. And hiring a new guy who has had success in every way imaginable.

I'm not going to change your mind at all, but Romney's dubious success in business has zero to do with running the government of the United States for the good of the vast majority of us.

Romney's "success" has been at looting businesses and paying off his shareholders and investors. If he's elected who do you think gets looted and who do you think gets rewarded?

[Dvae]

Originally Posted by jimmy-3-way

BUSTED.

You're no damn Republican. If you were you'd cut all the benefits and be making 10% margins.

Hard to believe isn't it?
All non-union workforce too. Now you know whatever he is he's not a Democrat.

[epitome]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I don't need Mitt Romney's "help".

Neither does anyone else. What is needed is to get govt. to cut spending. And to get govt. to stop hindering businesss and threatening tax hikes and allowing companies to drill for oil to help create jobs, .lower costs and get the economy rolling again. If you don't understand that...then it's obvious that YOU are failing miserably.

As for me failing miserably...that has never, and will never happen.

Taxes are lower than during the Clinton administration, which happens to be the last time Americans, as a whole, really felt prosperous. Everybody says businesses are being hindered yet everyday you turn around and there is another story about a company doing something illegally for years with nobody noticing. Companies do not base hiring decisions based on taxes but rather their needs. If they're expanding and need to hire 10 people to keep up with demand they aren't going to say "gee, taxes are too high, so I'm not going to hire them."

As a small business owner, after deductions I pay 22 cents on every dollar to some government agency. I can afford to pay more. Mitt pays almost 50% less than me and cannot stop talking about lowering taxes.

I don't give a shit if he pays more than me per year. He also has a couple hundred of million at his disposal. I will gladly take $300,000,000 off his hands and pay $66,000,000 in taxes just like I gladly pay the same 22% on what he considers chump change.

Even with a flat tax at 15% he'd still pay more than I would so the argument of "I pay more" doesn't really stand as every realistic proposal out there calls for those with more paying more.

Tax everybody at a 15% consumption rate and call it a day. Reward for savings. Rewarding savings could also affect business but I bet nobody would be bitching then.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by epitome

Complete opposite here. Hiring and housing sales (along with prices) are up. People are optimistic.

That's weird...I was down in Ft. Lauderdale a few weeks ago for the "Button South Reunion" at The Culture Room.
I saw hundreds (maybe over a thousand) of old friends and fans of my band (lived in Lauderdale all through the 1980's)...and everybody was telling me how bad things are there.

On the other side of Florida...my entire family lives near Tampa. My stepfather is an antique dealer, my dad a citrus grower, one brother a car dealer, and the other a fishing captain. None of them are saying what you are reporting.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by epitome

Taxes are lower than during the Clinton administration, which happens to be the last time Americans, as a whole, really felt prosperous.

Companies do not base hiring decisions based on taxes but rather their needs. If they're expanding and need to hire 10 people to keep up with demand they aren't going to say "gee, taxes are too high, so I'm not going to hire them."

Clinton was a great president. And there were a LOT of factors involved during that time that made the economy roar. The biggest was the tech bubble. The internet came to life during the 1990's. It was HUGE for the economy. Surely you aren't suggesting that raising taxes on people makes the economy grow?

And you're right...companies hire based on need. I don't think that lowering taxes will cause companies to hire more people. But raising taxes, raising cost of business...will most definitely result in that cost being passed on to consumers and raising the costs of everything. You and I will be paying that "tax" in higher prices.

I don't see the need to raise taxes on anyone. Don't we all pay enough already? Federal tax, state tax, local tax, property tax, sales tax...it's never ending.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Romney Ryan 2012



Men you can make bank on ...

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Minte

Look towards the future Paul. Not the past. China is only a few years out from having to pay their working class the same amounts that we pay in the US. China has been successful building their economy on the backs of US consumers and jobs. Once China catches up to the US in wages, then they will have their own market to sell the products they produce.

Do you know the average wage of the working class in China?

Workers are demanding a base salary of 1,300 yuan ($205 a month,) but more than that, they want to be ?treated like human beings?, as some put it. They want more respect from bosses, who scold them in front of others, ?confiscate our mobile phones? and check the women?s bathroom.

And the Government deduct social security payments from that. Go read who owbn the factories. http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Chine...ect-21915.html

To answer your snide remark. There are no mega-businessmen here. There are several small business owners that are here. I am about your age Paul. I have been doing what I do for my entire career. Take it for what it's worth.

When you get your statements so wrong, I guess you're right on this.

I asked on another thread why is GM going bankrupt, no one has yet answered because it's obvious and many won't face the real truth.

GM like many American car producers had a feeling of immunity to the world around them. You would rarely see an American car on the roads of Europe during the heyday of the American car industry. Yet you would see European cares on American roads all the time and in increasing numbers. The bosses and workers thought they had it made. This could be seen in so many industries producing goods for the US market first and exporting second.

Then the world caught up and started to produce the same goods in places where they had to export to survive. And they exported to America/Europe and Americans/Europeans bought them because they were better and cheaper.

The complacency and superiority of these places still exists in America. Mitt Romney stood up and said it was America's destiny to lead the world, have full employment and be rich. It's not, Americas destiny is to get up and compete with the rest of the world to be at the top, or sink down the list of powerful countries.

Great Empires and countries in the past were based on one this. A form of slave labour. Be it Great Britain with a home working class living just above starvation or millions of workers around the world shipping goods for GB to sell, back to the first civilisations. You can't have a great power with everyone worker living like they do in America. You eventually price yourself out of the market.

America grew to be great on the back of two world wars, when most countries couldn't produce any goods in great numbers. Now the rest of the world is catching up, so unless America and Europe can get it into it's head that they need to compete with the up coming powers, they will sink.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Robbie

I don't see the need to raise taxes on anyone. Don't we all pay enough already? Federal tax, state tax, local tax, property tax, sales tax...it's never ending.

It costs money to keep all those people working. Much better to let them starve so the rich can buy something imported from China. Where they don't have those expensive workers.

How many of online porn's self employed work force are US based?

This industry outsources to anywhere they can do the job cheaper. Russia or Eastern Europe for content, affiliates, designers and others in the second or third world. And our main market for joins is? The First World.

Everyone go figure why you need to pay taxes on the wealth you have, to keep other Americans putting food on their tables.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

Romney Ryan 2012



Men you can make bank on ...

The webcam business is another great example of why the US and EU are failing.

How many Webcam girls are based outside the first world, places like Eastern Europe, Russia, Philippines, etc?

Where are customers based?

No matter how great Apple, Microsoft or Nike are. If they ship manufacturing to the Third World they take jobs away from workers in the countries they sell to.

So asking Robbie, who earns so much and only pays 13%, to keep someone in a job so he can sell to them is common sense.

Originally Posted by minte

When you employee hundreds of people and supply them with health, dental, death insurances, 401k benefits, work comp insurance you will fail immediately if you don't factor in what is going on politically.

Much better to employ 100s of people on minimum wage, with no health insurance, death insurances, 401k benefits, work comp insurance. Because the frigging private run insurance companies are so frigging expensive and all those private ambulance chasing lawyers forcing the costs up.

And who cares if one of them gets sick and dies or becomes incapable of working. Lots more where he came from.

Seems Minte would prefer the system in the South with slaves or maybe Victorian England where this was the life for the workers. For the workers who could get a job with everything being automated.



And their bosses were like this.



Only one small problem. Who would he sell to?

All I hear here isn't about wealth creation. It's about making the 1% better off and the rest worse off. How this generates demand is beyond anyone to explain.

The word you're looking for is greed.

OK it's a bit hard hitting. But that might be what you guys need to face up to the truth. If you don't spread your wealth around your own country and keep exporting jobs overseas, you won't be wealthy for long.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

The webcam business is another great example of why the US and EU are failing.

How many Webcam girls are based outside the first world, places like Eastern Europe, Russia, Philippines, etc?

Where are customers based?

No matter how great Apple, Microsoft or Nike are. If they ship manufacturing to the Third World they take jobs away from workers in the countries they sell to.

So asking Robbie, who earns so much and only pays 13%, to keep someone in a job so he can sell to them is common sense.



Much better to employ 100s of people on minimum wage, with no health insurance, death insurances, 401k benefits, work comp insurance. Because the frigging private run insurance companies are so frigging expensive and all those private ambulance chasing lawyers forcing the costs up.

And who cares if one of them gets sick and dies or becomes incapable of working. Lots more where he came from.

Seems Minte would prefer the system in the South with slaves or maybe Victorian England where this was the life for the workers. For the workers who could get a job with everything being automated.



And their bosses were like this.



Only one small problem. Who would he sell to?

All I hear here isn't about wealth creation. It's about making the 1% better off and the rest worse off. How this generates demand is beyond anyone to explain.

The word you're looking for is greed.

OK it's a bit hard hitting. But that might be what you guys need to face up to the truth. If you don't spread your wealth around your own country and keep exporting jobs overseas, you won't be wealthy for long.

Paul..save it for someone you can impress. I spend more on health insurance for our employees every month than most here will make this year. I treat the people that work for us with respect. They get free dental insurance, free death insurance and a 401k program.

You enjoy your retirement. I will enjoy living. It's a beautiful day here today, so I am going to go to the lake and spend it on the boat.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Minte

Paul..save it for someone you can impress. I spend more on health insurance for our employees every month than most here will make this year. I treat the people that work for us with respect. They get free dental insurance, free death insurance and a 401k program.

You enjoy your retirement. I will enjoy living. It's a beautiful day here today, so I am going to go to the lake and spend it on the boat.

Now he's trying to come over as a kind hearted guy. After complaining about being forced to pay.

Make your mind up.

Simple question. Would you pay for all those benefits if you didn't have to?

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

The webcam business is another great example of why the US and EU are failing.

How many Webcam girls are based outside the first world, places like Eastern Europe, Russia, Philippines, etc?

Where are customers based?

This is coming from a Britt ex-pat who moved to Eastern Europe so he could shoot cheesy porn with less costly models?

As a matter of fact -- we have the largest number of French webcam models that are in France, a Western European country I might add.

The majority of our customers are in Western Europe.

America and particularly my local community benefits from my personal spending here.

And no, I don't create any jobs here in America. Firstly Americans have priced themselves out of many lower value occupations. Americans expect lowered prices and can only find them with foreign made goods usually -- the exception being high ticket durable items and critical infrastructure and production items.

I drive an American made car, buy American (or EU) made tools when I can (read quality not price), pay USA taxes (so I pay for the right to be critical -- you don't). But my consumer electronics are mostly Asian made (can't avoid that these days).

I just bought a GE Dishwasher, Delta faucet set -- they are both assembled in America with American and foreign made components. Even American made products have imported contents these days.

On the contrary side, I will be in Europe for a couple of weeks spending some of my earnings in Europe -- I am visiting Romania too. Apart from that; the webcam industry is one of the largest foreign currency earning industries in Romania with it employing an estimated 40,000 Romanians.

So tell me, how is that more exploitive than getting models for static and video shoots in the cheap in Eastern Europe as you have?

As I am an American Citizen, if I have an opinion or wish to express political sarcasm on American politics; I am qualified and you are not.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

This is coming from a Britt ex-pat who moved to Eastern Europe so he could shoot cheesy porn with less costly models?

As a matter of fact -- we have the largest number of French webcam models that are in France, a Western European country I might add.

The majority of our customers are in Western Europe.

America and particularly my local community benefits from my personal spending here.

And no, I don't create any jobs here in America. Firstly Americans have priced themselves out of many lower value occupations. Americans expect lowered prices and can only find them with foreign made goods usually -- the exception being high ticket durable items and critical infrastructure and production items.

I drive an American made car, buy American (or EU) made tools when I can (read quality not price), pay USA taxes (so I pay for the right to be critical -- you don't). But my consumer electronics are mostly Asian made (can't avoid that these days).

I just bought a GE Dishwasher, Delta faucet set -- they are both assembled in America with American and foreign made components. Even American made products have imported contents these days.

On the contrary side, I will be in Europe for a couple of weeks spending some of my earnings in Europe -- I am visiting Romania too. Apart from that; the webcam industry is one of the largest foreign currency earning industries in Romania with it employing an estimated 40,000 Romanians.

So tell me, how is that more exploitive than getting models for static and video shoots in the cheap in Eastern Europe as you have?

As I am an American Citizen, if I have an opinion or wish to express political sarcasm on American politics; I am qualified and you are not.

Yes I moved to Central Europe and paid the girls here what I paid in England.

Nice to know you spend your money on American made good. If the rest of America did that, it would be in a better financial position.

But as you point out, to many Americans want a decent wage. so have ended up getting nothing because the Chinese are less costly.

As you said so well, Romania is a great place for webcam girls. Are they better than US girls or cheaper?

As I said I'm in Central Europe and Czech is far more expensive than Romania for models. And I paid the UK price for CZ models, I came here because of the quality of models.

I'm replying to guys who think cutting their taxes can be a solution to their countries economic crisis.

I'm an EU citizen and we have similar economic problems. The solution isn't cutting taxes or even cutting spending. It's a lack of ability to produce goods at home for sale at home and overseas.

Every dollar cut will be felt by another American and the cuts will trickle up. It's this simple.

Tax people > Government spends it by employing people and projects. > This generates demand and wages > People employed in the system go to the shops. Where they buy goods. Some made in the US some in China > People get work, some in the US some in China.

Cut taxes and spending > government spends less fires people doesn't have projects. > This lowers demand and wages for those hit > Less people employed in the system go to the shops. Where they buy fewer goods. Some made in the US more in China > So less people get work in the US more in China. As their goods are cheaper and as you say more available.

Now if you can explain how taking money from one person and giving it to another person generates more spending. We're all eager to know. Mitt will pay you good money for the secret.

This isn't an attack against you. It's against the stupid idea that cutting taxes generates income. Yes you can cut overseas aid, overseas military. BUT the moment it puts people out of work or cuts their income in the home country, it stifles demand. You simply take out of the chain people spending in shops.

To generate wealth you have to generate extra demand. Shifting cash from the 99% to the 1% or the 60% to the 40% won't generate extra wealth.

[Barry-xlovecam]

1. True wealth is created by taking raw materials and creating usable products
   
2. The wealth of mercantile trade is in the sale of these products
   
3. The above create wealth for the service industry to be necessary and supported
   
4. The finance industry makes the movement of wealth possible
   
5. The healthcare industry keeps us alive to work
   
6. The technology industry exists to manage the all above
   
7. The porn industry helps everyone to wank

So, what does that make all of us? Top feeders or bottom feeders?

You are implying the UK wages were higher that CZ wages -- why would you pay more than is necessary? I have always paid market wages plus a small premium for good help. (This includes my many years of being a building contractor, creating real wealth I might add -- homes and commercial buildings).

So, you were not a business but a charitable organization? How did that work out :P

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Barry-xlovecam

1. True wealth is created by taking raw materials and creating usable products
   
2. The wealth of mercantile trade is in the sale of these products
   
3. The above create wealth for the service industry to be necessary and supported
   
4. The finance industry makes the movement of wealth possible
   
5. The healthcare industry keeps us alive to work
   
6. The technology industry exists to manage the all above
   
7. The porn industry helps everyone to wank

So, what does that make all of us? Top feeders or bottom feeders?

You are implying the UK wages were higher that CZ wages -- why would you pay more than is necessary? I have always paid market wages plus a small premium for good help. (This includes my many years of being a building contractor, creating real wealth I might add -- homes and commercial buildings).

So, you were not a business but a charitable organization? How did that work out :P

We paid above what the rest paid to get the girls first and get the opposition looking like skin flints. The effect worked perfectly for us and crap for the rest. If you pay the best, you get the best. If you pay the same you get the same. Remember what you were posting about quality products? No charity, only business common sense.

I'm retired on all the money we made.

So you're now supporting my point. Good for you. All the time I thought you were just picking an argument because you only wanted taxes cut without think of the consequences. Why did I get that impression?

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Now he's trying to come over as a kind hearted guy. After complaining about being forced to pay.

Make your mind up.

Simple question. Would you pay for all those benefits if you didn't have to?

Kind hearted has nothing to do with good business. No where am I complaining about paying people well and giving quality benefits. No business in the US is currently required to supply any benefits beyond work comp insurance.

Our business is built around quality products. You don't get quality products without a loyal skilled workforce. You don't keep a loyal skilled workforce without treating them fairly and sharing in the profit picture.

In your line of work it's certainly the same. There is a reason some shooters do playmates and some do crackwhores.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by Minte

No business in the US is currently required to supply any benefits beyond work comp insurance.

Do you just make stuff up?

All businesses in Hawaii are required by law to give employees who work more than twenty hours health benefits.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/health/policy/17hawaii.html?pagewanted=all

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Minte

When you employee hundreds of people and supply them with health, dental, death insurances, 401k benefits, work comp insurance you will fail immediately if you don't factor in what is going on politically.

20 years ago a business like mine could fool around and make 18% margins. Today,you better be on the balls of your feet every moment to make 8%. THe margins aren't there anymore to be sloppy or absorb a bunch of hits.

Sorry Minte, I misread this post of yours and got the impression you were complaining about having to pay them.

You see I thought you were complaining that 10% goes toward paying benefits. Silly me.

Was I right on the Chinese wages bit and it will take a long time for them to catch up?

They don't pay the benefits good employers like you do.

Nice flame about me shooting crack whores. Can you prove that lie?

Originally Posted by Rochard

Do you just make stuff up?

All businesses in Hawaii are required by law to give employees who work more than twenty hours health benefits.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/health/policy/17hawaii.html?pagewanted=all

He certainly seems to shift around a lot. I would love to know what his business is.

I suppose he doesn't employ 100s of people and talking about other businesses. Maybe he's right about his 8% margin. LOL

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Rochard

All businesses in Hawaii are required by law to give employees who work more than twenty hours health benefits.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/health/policy/17hawaii.html?pagewanted=all

Just read that article.

I'm just astounded at some folks. Did you see the part about the 61 year old woman who is a travel agent? Her boss said "no" to paying for her health care. And since unemployment is so high in Hawaii, she didn't argue.

But what astounded me is this statement: "She has not been to a primary-care doctor or a gynecologist in years and goes to the emergency room when she needs care. “I could have an alien called cancer growing inside me, but who knows?” she said. “It worries me.”"

WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!?

This bitch refuses to go to her obgyn because somebody else won't pay for it?

Is that really what the American people have sunk to? I know plenty of strippers who don't have health insurance. And they all go to the obgyn regularly. My mom doesn't have health insurance (and she refuses to apply for her social security or medicare...drives me nuts, but that's the way my family is)...and she goes to her obgyn and family doctor as needed as well.

Why the hell can't this women cough up $50 to go to the obgyn? That same article even brags how medical care is so low priced in Hawaii...it's just ridiculous and goes to show what happens in people's minds when they think that somebody else is supposed to take care of them like they are fucking babies.

[jimmy-3-way]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Simple question. Would you pay for all those benefits if you didn't have to?

He doesn't HAVE to, you snide asshole.

He does it because he's smart and sees the big picture: treat your employees well and you attract good, loyal employees who care about doing a good job.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Rochard

Do you just make stuff up?

All businesses in Hawaii are required by law to give employees who work more than twenty hours health benefits.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/17/health/policy/17hawaii.html?pagewanted=all

Ok,Hawaii..the hotbed of large manufacturing companies. I wasn't aware of it. I didn't however see in that article anything about the percentage of require employer contribution.

We pay 70% of the cost, which is more than most do it the midwest.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Sorry Minte, I misread this post of yours and got the impression you were complaining about having to pay them.

You see I thought you were complaining that 10% goes toward paying benefits. Silly me.

Was I right on the Chinese wages bit and it will take a long time for them to catch up?

They don't pay the benefits good employers like you do.

Nice flame about me shooting crack whores. Can you prove that lie?



He certainly seems to shift around a lot. I would love to know what his business is.

I suppose he doesn't employ 100s of people and talking about other businesses. Maybe he's right about his 8% margin. LOL

Seriously, if you took from that post what you just wrote, it's fairly clear you made the right decision in retiring.

I don't know if you shoot crackwhores or playmates. All I know about you is that you are a retired photographer that has a lot of people on this board that don't much care for you.
You think because you are older than most of the people on this board that you are smarter. The fact is you are just older.

[Mutt]

Originally Posted by Minte

Our business is built around quality products. You don't get quality products without a loyal skilled workforce. You don't keep a loyal skilled workforce without treating them fairly and sharing in the profit picture.

You do realize that it took the trade union movement and the example of other countries like Japan to make that happen? Workers like the ones you employ today not too far back in history were treated and paid horribly and if not for the unions and government regulation it would still be the same way today. Today our captains of industry do it at arms length via offshore sweat shops and if they could get away with it here they'd still be doing it here.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Mutt

You do realize that it took the trade union movement and the example of other countries like Japan to make that happen? Workers like the ones you employ today not too far back in history were treated and paid horribly and if not for the unions and government regulation it would still be the same way today. Today our captains of industry do it at arms length via offshore sweat shops and if they could get away with it here they'd still be doing it here.

My first job was as a machinist in the very building I just purchased. I was a member of the aerospace & machinists union. Along side of us we had steelworkers union as well. I agree that the US might look like a 3rd world country today in manufacturing if it had not been for unions in the 1950's. But the pendulum swung to far and the unions became far to powerful. The plant we are moving in had 1100 employees at one time.

I think one of the larger issues facing the board of directors of large corporations is the unyielding demand to create profits so the shareholders get their dividends.

[Barry-xlovecam]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

All the time I thought you were just picking an argument because you only wanted taxes cut without think of the consequences. Why did I get that impression?

I would like to have to pay more in taxes that would mean I made more money ...

You never hear me whining about taxes but the high cost of insurance and limited bonding made me get out of the construction business.

This industry has made me a globalist and my home may have slid 35% in its paper value but my other assets have done OK. Further, our business revenue and profits are ever increasing.

However, I do realize the general economic situation and know that we will only progress with some new disruptive innovation. Clinton was oft cited in this thread and his success was due to disruptive innovation -- the computer and information revolution with much the same effects on society as the industrial revolution along with other notable historic events. Problem is these events might happen with long time periods between them.

Two steps forward on step backwards they say ...

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Minte

What has to happen is that at some point the consumer has to realize that they need to shop somewhere besides Walmart.

What has to happen is people need to come to terms with the fact that our society does not need everyone in it to work. We are able to produce more than we consume with much less than full employment. Take a look at a book titled The End of Work. It's written by a reputable economist who makes the point that we ought to be moving toward a four day work week. It's counter to the strict capitalist notions that engendered the last century... But the fact is that our ability to produce far exceeds our demand and is not affected nearly as much by an increase or decrease in the size of our labor force as it used to be. We are going to have a glut of unemployed people whether everyone wants to work or not and we have no plan to deal with that paradigm.

Being a hard working, educated and conscientious person will not result in a job for many Americans. That trend will rise. We have no plan of what to do with them all...but calling them all lazy and disparaging them isnt going to solve the problem. Ryan and Romney sweeping them under the rug won't be good for the country either.

[Minte]

Originally Posted by Relentless

What has to happen is people need to come to terms with the fact that our society does not need everyone in it to work. We are able to produce more than we consume with much less than full employment. Take a look at a book titled The End of Work. It's written by a reputable economist who makes the point that we ought to be moving toward a four day work week. It's counter to the strict capitalist notions that engendered the last century... But the fact is that our ability to produce far exceeds our demand and is not affected nearly as much by an increase or decrease in the size of our labor force as it used to be. We are going to have a glut of unemployed people whether everyone wants to work or not and we have no plan to deal with that paradigm.

Being a hard working, educated and conscientious person will not result in a job for many Americans. That trend will rise. We have no plan of what to do with them all...but calling them all lazy and disparaging them isnt going to solve the problem. Ryan and Romney sweeping them under the rug won't be good for the country either.

Maybe Vonnegut was right when he penned Player Piano

[_Richard_]

Originally Posted by Minte

Maybe Vonnegut was right when he penned Player Piano

i remember that book ending badly

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by Minte

Maybe Vonnegut was right when he penned Player Piano

I never liked Vonnegut's style... But the fact is, a century ago you didn't have the mother and father in nearly every household working 5+ days each week. We have more people working today than ever before, and yet our ability to produce now is exponentially greater than at any time in the past on a per worker basis. Automation speeds itself up over time, and we will continue to produce more and more per person in virtually every sector of the economy. We have 20-25% unemployment now if we look at the real numbers. Yet, we seem to not have a single shortage of anything.

Like it or not, short of a massive population falloff we are headed for a time when we will simply have more people than jobs even during 'good' economic times. Vilifying people who are unemployed is moronic. Yes, there will always be a stratum of lazy/stupid/uneducated/undisciplined asshats who deserve to fail. There will also be a tiny fraction at the very top of people who are succesful and truly self-made. However, most poor people and most rich people are much more the result of outside forces than anything else. Upbringing, native intellect, timing, blind luck... Do play a role, and anyone who acts like those things don't is simply being dishonest with themselves.

Disparaging someone for working hard and ending up unemployed is just as dumb as belittiling the accomplishment of someone who worked hard and became financially successful. The reality is that the hard working poor person and hard working rich person have a lot in common. So does the lazy welfare collector and the wealthy trust fund asshat. That's the mistake being made in this country and in this campaign. Romney isn't a genius for turning every advantage in life into a successful outcome. If he were born in another zip code he would have had just as much chance of winding up a bight guy on unemployment. It takes a hell of a lot less to be Donald Trump than it does to be his father Fred Trump, who left him millions.

We are one nation. There are 300 Milkion of us and there will never come a day when all 300 million of us are wealthy. The dividing line includes a whole lot more thn desire and aptitude.very soon there will be plenty of bright, hard working conscientious Americans out of work through no fault of their own... and economic policy won't fix it because it is a simple matter of production per person multiplied by population driving the trend. Oh wait... Look.... It's already starting to happen right now.

[adendreams]

This may have been posted already but for those who missed it:

AN ABSOLUTE MUST READ IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHO THE FUCK THIS ROMNEY CHARACTER IS...

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...829?print=true

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by jimmy-3-way

He doesn't HAVE to, you snide asshole.

He does it because he's smart and sees the big picture: treat your employees well and you attract good, loyal employees who care about doing a good job.

So you read this as someone willing to pay the benefits?

Originally Posted by Minte

When you employee hundreds of people and supply them with health, dental, death insurances, 401k benefits, work comp insurance you will fail immediately if you don't factor in what is going on politically.

20 years ago a business like mine could fool around and make 18% margins. Today,you better be on the balls of your feet every moment to make 8%. THe margins aren't there anymore to be sloppy or absorb a bunch of hits.

I read it as someone complaining.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Minte

Seriously, if you took from that post what you just wrote, it's fairly clear you made the right decision in retiring.

I don't know if you shoot crackwhores or playmates. All I know about you is that you are a retired photographer that has a lot of people on this board that don't much care for you.
You think because you are older than most of the people on this board that you are smarter. The fact is you are just older.

You don't know if I shot crack whores. Then what are you doing posting on a porn professionals board? Serious question because it's obvious they were not. Plus given the fact you run this big business outside porn with all these employees I would imagine bothering with porn was a waste of time for you. Or is that my addled brain coming to the wrong conclusion. Or you bullshitting us?

Originally Posted by Minte

My first job was as a machinist in the very building I just purchased. I was a member of the aerospace & machinists union. Along side of us we had steelworkers union as well. I agree that the US might look like a 3rd world country today in manufacturing if it had not been for unions in the 1950's. But the pendulum swung to far and the unions became far to powerful. The plant we are moving in had 1100 employees at one time.

I think one of the larger issues facing the board of directors of large corporations is the unyielding demand to create profits so the shareholders get their dividends.

Then get off GFY and look after your core business.

Originally Posted by Minte

What has to happen is that at some point the consumer has to realize that they need to shop somewhere besides Walmart.

Then employees like you need to pay more for all the workers and stop outsourcing to the Third World so more people can have a job. Then everyone like you can shop at Neiman Marcus.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Relentless

What has to happen is people need to come to terms with the fact that our society does not need everyone in it to work. We are able to produce more than we consume with much less than full employment. Take a look at a book titled The End of Work. It's written by a reputable economist who makes the point that we ought to be moving toward a four day work week. It's counter to the strict capitalist notions that engendered the last century... But the fact is that our ability to produce far exceeds our demand and is not affected nearly as much by an increase or decrease in the size of our labor force as it used to be. We are going to have a glut of unemployed people whether everyone wants to work or not and we have no plan to deal with that paradigm.

Being a hard working, educated and conscientious person will not result in a job for many Americans. That trend will rise. We have no plan of what to do with them all...but calling them all lazy and disparaging them isnt going to solve the problem. Ryan and Romney sweeping them under the rug won't be good for the country either.

Very intelligent post.

The past was factories full of people working for wages. Some able to buy their own homes. Today with automation and importing those days are gone. So we have to realise this and adapt.

The unemployed can't all be soaked up by the service industries, unless you want to walk into shops and see more assistants than shoppers. (Just an example.) Employing people is often the most expensive part of a business.

Community work is one way to employ the unemployed, working for the Government in some form is another way. What we cannot afford to do as a society is create ghettos of poor people who have no future and little money.

So other than the rich in work contributing properly towards them, what's the options?

Yes we need to make sure they work in some capacity, the youth especially, to give them the work ethic. So after time they expect to get up at 7.00, arrive at work by 8.00 and stay till 5.00-6.00.

Doing what?

Looking after the old and incapable. Hospitals, child care for some, teaching, making sure the community they live in is getting something back for supporting them. Yes is will be hard and it will cost those in work money.

Maybe a 1% import tax on all goods shipped into the US.

BUT all the money paid out will flow back in those people going to the shops and spending the money. Who knows with less unemployed people on a very low income, their might be less crime.

Or is looking after your fellow man not "What being an American." means?

The same goes for Europe. What they did wrong was push too much money in the shape of loans to places that could never repay it.

What is needed is the mindset of many needs to change. We have to realise that this is a world economy where the Third World can do labour intensive jobs and sell them for less. That the Third World will not stay doing that, they will rise and be manufacturing and selling products like Apple, Microsoft and yes the financial markets. America and Europe have no given right to stay at the top. No world power ever did.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

and that has nothing to do with your competition and worldwide economics?

i doubt that anyone nowadays can just fool around, not even Mark Zuckerberg after going public

i used to work for Siemens - 400k employees - i very much doubt they base their decisions on politics (unless they need to bribe governments - but they had to give up on that as well)

That has to be one of the most charmingly naive posts made on this board. Siemens is also a global company with interests in every major world market. Not a small business trying to hang on and grow.

Anyway... thinking they don't make decisions based in part on politics is incredibly silly. These companies dedicate a huge amount of money to influencing politics everywhere they do business.

[Barry-xlovecam]

It is just cheaper to manufacture base materials and consumer goods in other nations than the "developed world''.

If you look at the development in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea you can see how their domestic markets have developed. Their living standards have increased greatly but their initial capitalization to do this came at the expense of the importing nations -- what did the get out of the deal -- was it equitable overall?

We, the developed nations, built ( or funded ) the factories or machinery for the development over there but did we actually create wealth or just short term profits?

There is globalism and there is protectionism what is right depends on your vested position and/or ambitions.

Japan now makes word class products and their wage levels have forced their production to nearby Asian low wage countries. The Japanese restrict imports to their domestic markets as best that can manipulate within the WTO agreements.

There really is not a solution we all can agree on. With all the ''buy American'' advertising in this country "Buy Cheaper'' still prevails in the USA so here we are to stay ...

[BlackCrayon]

at least minte is manufacturing things IN the us! thats a dying breed.

and 50 bucks for the obgyn? i think its more than that..

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

and 50 bucks for the obgyn? i think its more than that..

That's what it costs my wife here in Vegas. It was a little less in S.C.

But I googled "average cost of obgyn visit" and the answer I saw (averaging in "expensive" cities like New York along with "cheap" places like Hawaii) was $60 to $150 depending on if you are a current patient or a new patient.

Bottom line is...the woman is a travel agent in Hawaii. Hawaii supposedly has some of the lowest cost medical care in the country. She has a job. A visit to the obgyn twice a year is something she should be able to pay for.

But her comment was that she hadn't been in "years" And maybe some kind of cancer is "growing" inside her but she just doesn't know but is scared.

What a crock of shit.
Number one...that bitch has got some nasty ass pussy.
Number two...if she's really "scared" why doesn't she save $15 a week for 4 weeks and go to the damn doctor? She has a job!

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's what it costs my wife here in Vegas. It was a little less in S.C.

But I googled "average cost of obgyn visit" and the answer I saw (averaging in "expensive" cities like New York along with "cheap" places like Hawaii) was $60 to $150 depending on if you are a current patient or a new patient.

Bottom line is...the woman is a travel agent in Hawaii. Hawaii supposedly has some of the lowest cost medical care in the country. She has a job. A visit to the obgyn twice a year is something she should be able to pay for.

But her comment was that she hadn't been in "years" And maybe some kind of cancer is "growing" inside her but she just doesn't know but is scared.

What a crock of shit.
Number one...that bitch has got some nasty ass pussy.
Number two...if she's really "scared" why doesn't she save $15 a week for 4 weeks and go to the damn doctor? She has a job!

Agree. Just because she has to pay, doesn't mean she shouldn't get a $150 check up.

The entire American Health and Social Care system is a mess. Those who pay, are milked and yet can get a good service if their Insurance Policy pays out. If you get to a hospital and they think you have the money to pay, the cash registers start to ring up the bills. Those who can't pay, get a system where if they have an accident are patched up and sent home ASAP. Things like cancer are not automatically covered, some may qualify some may not.

Companies paying the benefits are lumbered with a large extra cost.

Those who through no fault of their own can be left behind.

Health/Social Care is like Defence, Transport and Government. Best in the hands of the people, not businessmen.

[nico-t]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

I used to be in the dress manufacturing trade.

that's why dvtimes must be the only one defending your dribble on this forum: you promised him a new wedding dress didn't you!

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by Robbie

That's what it costs my wife here in Vegas. It was a little less in S.C.

But I googled "average cost of obgyn visit" and the answer I saw (averaging in "expensive" cities like New York along with "cheap" places like Hawaii) was $60 to $150 depending on if you are a current patient or a new patient.

Bottom line is...the woman is a travel agent in Hawaii. Hawaii supposedly has some of the lowest cost medical care in the country. She has a job. A visit to the obgyn twice a year is something she should be able to pay for.

But her comment was that she hadn't been in "years" And maybe some kind of cancer is "growing" inside her but she just doesn't know but is scared.

What a crock of shit.
Number one...that bitch has got some nasty ass pussy.
Number two...if she's really "scared" why doesn't she save $15 a week for 4 weeks and go to the damn doctor? She has a job!

i agree but the minute something isn't right and god knows what needs to be done, costs skyrocket i would imagine. never having insurance is taking a pretty big risk. you can only hope nothing goes wrong. however it seems insurance is a big scam anyways, since they will do anything in their power to deny your claim. every claim that goes through is one less bit of profit for them. its a system that just doesn't work and can't be trusted.

[CarlosTheGaucho]

Originally Posted by Relentless

We are one nation. There are 300 Milkion of us and there will never come a day when all 300 million of us are wealthy. The dividing line includes a whole lot more thn desire and aptitude.very soon there will be plenty of bright, hard working conscientious Americans out of work through no fault of their own... and economic policy won't fix it because it is a simple matter of production per person multiplied by population driving the trend. Oh wait... Look.... It's already starting to happen right now.

Talking about structural unemployment and dealing with it - Germany in the past 15 years makes for a very interesting study, for example the way the country created jobs in progressive industries accomodating innovation.

However, I would believe that its success is mainly due to the national nature of thoroughness, discipline, loyalty and dedication to work - can hardly be replicated in pretty much any other European country.

[Barry-xlovecam]

I just had a Cryoplasty in May (or cryo-balloon angioplasty) for some bad stenosis (90 -98% blockage) arterial narrowing in the femoral artery in my right leg.

I have PAD (Peripheral Artery Disease) this is an uninsurable ''preexisting condition''. ''Obamacare'' mandated insurance coverage availability for persons with PAD and my insurance is through the State with Federal subsidies. This insurance costs as much as $13,900 a year for one person -- me (premiums, deductibles, co-pays) -- I'm glad I can get it and afford it. What were the alternatives -- pay out of pocket? This is a progressing disease that will reoccur and cost again and again -- ultimately my arteriosclerosis will be fatal but I can still be productive and a taxpayer for maybe 20 more years. Do I deserve to die prematurely? That would be my fate without the medicines I need ($600/mo) and future interventions. My goal in life is to delay becoming fertilizer as long as I can enjoy life and be productive.

The Cryoplasty cost $77,000 ''retail'' the insurance contract price was $32,000 and my out of pocket costs were $2,800. This is for a procedure conscious in a cathlab three hours on an operating table with dilaudid and held overnight in a post op ward for observation.

This illustrates the way medical costs are apportioned most negatively against the uninsured who are, in most cases, the least able to pay.

My leg was improved from exercise, developing collateral circulation so there was no real danger of limb morbidity (gangrene and amputation any longer) but I could not walk more than 8 minutes without pain and cramping. It's better now, I can walk 40 minutes in the grocery store, etc.

So bottom line, Obamacare probably saved my leg. How much is your leg worth to you? Mine is well worth the money I spent and if you are pissed off that your tax dollars were spent to subsidize saving my leg -- fuck you! I have paid my share of taxes for 40 years now ...

As to the original topic that we have strayed far from ... It is interesting that Romney when Governor of Massachusetts enacted ''Romneycare'' some say the model for ''Obamacare" but his selection of Paul Ryan indicates his change of direction or flip flop on the issue -- just like his flip flops on other major issues to conform the extremists viewpoints in his political party. Undoubtedly, RR (Romney/Ryan) will crash and burn in November and to my opinion rightfully so -- they are the true expression of the party of no and what the hell are they ''conserving?'' America must go forward with new ways, as to go back to our not so glorious past is Neanderthal.