The ? may as well be a penny stock

[Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE]

That is one pumped and dumped bitch.

[PornoStar69]

no shit Sherlock


illuminati must be rubbing their hands

[Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE]

That's where you are off base, in any belief of any monetary motivation. Say zero with me.

[Overload]

hmm, and since the dollar is worth less than the euro ... what does that make the dollar then? a sub-penny stock? hehum ...

[scarlettcontent]

it will recover

[DWB]

Originally Posted by scarlettcontent

it will recover

It will be temporary. They are just going to kick the can down the road for as long as possible, country by country. Just like the USA is doing.

[OldJeff]

Close. The US dollar (Federal Reserve Note, really) is worth less then 2 cents of its original value. That is, when comparing the purchasing power of the "dollar" in 1913 (Fed creation) to the "dollar" of 2012.

On the other hand, the true American dollar, as intended (and written into the Constitution) is worth a bit over $23 in Federal Reserve Notes. The true American dollar, as it was from the early 1700's up until the creation of the Fed in 1913, is defined as 26.73 grams of silver in coin form. Which is .7234 ounces of fine silver. REAL MONEY as intended by the founding fathers of this country.

If our founding father were alive today they'd already of kicked us off the lazyboy chair, shoved the remote up our ass, slapped the back of our heads, and say, you fucking pussy go get your country back.

This place needs a like button

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by scarlettcontent

it will recover

Without strict and intelligent non political people running it, this was all inevitable. It's impossible to tie the economies of the North EU with the South EU, unless the South accept a lower standard of living.

They didn't and borrowed to make everything look good. A lot of the borrowed money wasn't spent in the countries of the borrowers, it was spent on goods produced in the North EU. Put simply, Greeks were buying Mercedes. All on borrowed money.

Now the banks are unlikely to ever get their, our, money back. So the proposed solution is the richer countries, us, keep pumping money into the poorer countries to save them from collapse and bring down the whole stack of cards.

This problem isn't going to end with Greece. There's Italy, Spain, Portugal and maybe Eire also to consider.

The UK has horrible debts, racked up by a fool who thought the way to growth was to over inflate public spending and not invest in long term businesses and industry. He did think the Banks were doing a great job though.

I say proposed solution. Because the voters won't accept the politicians solution. Our Socialist Care System is designed to look after our own separate countries. Not others.

[grumpy]

wait 2 months, USA then need some money again. Lets see what that does to the dollar.

[Barry-xlovecam]

What currency is convertible now? Convertibility is a red herring argument.

The Euro is at 95% of its historical valuation in relation to the US Dollar.

That may be comparing garbage to trash but it's all relative.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

It's much much deeper then North/South, Banks, UK, US, Politics, EU, etc. Our everyday lives are busy so who follows all this complicated shit they can't control? I do because I make money from it and when learning the true realities, the ignorant are truly blessed.

Anyway, the main problem:

The word "derivatives" simply means a bet has been made. Originally, these bets were designed to hedge/cover risk. Nine of the largest banks in the US total more than $200 trillion of exposure to derivatives. If the derivatives ever showed signs of weakness it would completely collapse and there isn't enough money in the world to fix it. Again, this is "just" the US and not the the rest of the world, but today the worldwide derivatives market ballooned, estimated between $600 trillion to $1.5 quadrillion.

The world's GDP is only $65 trillion comparatively so again, it's not about political leaders or euro/dollar or fucking Greece. It's only about speculation, confidence, and exposure. The ECB and FED can't print/pump enough money into the system because once it goes, TOTAL failure because the exposure is just too great.

So what causes a crash? Simply a lack of confidence ..... Be honest, do you feel confident in your Government, Bank, the markets, your future earnings, home values? ...etc.

Agreed. We have lived on a mountain of debt for a long time. It's just meant everything looked good and we needed to work hard to buy more and sometimes a lot more than we could afford.

[Paul Markham]

Watching the news about Greece and it seems to me the best solution is to kick them out of the EU and Euro now rather than down the line.

1.6 GDP debt mountain with no way to repay it. It's getting worse as businesses and the money get out. The tourist trade is bad, fewer and fewer will go there. This isn't a trend they have any hope of turning around.



At the moment 90% of the "Greek Bailout" isn't for them. It's to keep the Banks afloat who loaned them money.

Insert picture "Rock and hard place."

So the EU has two options. Get rid of Greece and let the other countries know this is the penalty for fucking up. Or keep giving them money and let the other countries this is the penalty for fucking up.

Reality is the French, German, UK, Dutch, etc voters won't vote to save Greece. Because helping an addict with more of the same drugs, isn't helping him at all. And encourages others to go on being addicted.

This is pure speculation. The EU is credited for avoiding another European war. Until 1990 we had the Soviet Block on our doorstep and that was the reason we didn't have a war. Now we know what a war means and the consequences, so we go kill people elsewhere. However if the EU crumbles because of the politicians, who knows what will emerge.

There comes a time when to save the patient you amputate.

And the Greek politicians are looking to do what now they had an election? Form a Government so they can send a delegation to Berlin and ask for more time. What's the betting we will be looking at this in a years time if they do?

[Paul]

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

It's much much deeper then North/South, Banks, UK, US, Politics, EU, etc. Our everyday lives are busy so who follows all this complicated shit they can't control? I do because I make money from it and when learning the true realities, the ignorant are truly blessed.

Anyway, the main problem:

The word "derivatives" simply means a bet has been made. Originally, these bets were designed to hedge/cover risk. Nine of the largest banks in the US total more than $200 trillion of exposure to derivatives. If the derivatives ever showed signs of weakness it would completely collapse and there isn't enough money in the world to fix it. Again, this is "just" the US and not the the rest of the world, but today the worldwide derivatives market ballooned, estimated between $600 trillion to $1.5 quadrillion.

The world's GDP is only $65 trillion comparatively so again, it's not about political leaders or euro/dollar or fucking Greece. It's only about speculation, confidence, and exposure. The ECB and FED can't print/pump enough money into the system because once it goes, TOTAL failure because the exposure is just too great.

Derivatives Are Financial Weapons Of Mass Destruction - Warren Buffett

[sperbonzo]

http://speaklibertynow.com/2012/06/1...n-millionaire/

1.) The US seems to be quickly losing its status as world reserve currency.

For the past few decades, the global marketplace operated in mostly US dollars. But this
situation seems to be ending:

?The lack of other buyers forced the Federal Reserve to buy ?a stunning 61% of the total
net issuance of US gov?t debt??Last December, Japan and China agreed to trade in yen
and yuan?The 10 nations of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations finalized a non-
dollar credit agreement?the China Development Bank agreed with its counterparts in
Brazil, Russia, India and South Africa to eschew dollar lending? (1)

The dollar has been valued worldwide for years, and the Fed has taken advantage of
this position by printing new money to pay for the US federal government?s bills. Other
countries are starting to realize that the banker in this global Monopoly game has been
giving himself money to spend.

2.) There are More US Dollars Held Abroad than in America.

Since 1971, humanity has been carrying out a bold, unprecedented economic experiment:
a single worldwide currency is the cornerstone of the international global economy and it
is not backed by gold or silver.

?The Federal Reserve says that at any given time, between one-half and two-thirds of the
M0 money stock of U.S. dollars is held overseas.? (2)

People worldwide used the dollar to trade with people from other countries, but if that
stops, they won?t want US dollars. Additionally, dollars aren?t typically accepted at
storefronts worldwide, and people worldwide can?t pay taxes in dollars, so what happens
if (when) the dollar loses its status as world reserve currency and all those dollars come
back to America?

It?s not uncommon for a stock price to plunge 90% in a day because demand for the stock
dries up: if the dollar plunges 90% in a day, this would mean a sudden price inflation of
1,000%, something on the scale of what Zimbabwe, Germany, and many other countries
have had when they experienced hyperinflation. This is a a distinct possibility.

3.) The Federal Reserve has pledged to keep Treasury interest rates at 0% until
2014.

The Fed has pledged to keep Treasury interest rates at 0% until 2014 (3). This is
irresponsible.

Would you lend someone money at 0% interest until 2014? I wouldn?t. So who is lending
the federal government the billions in deficits it racks up every month? The Federal
Reserve.

If the Fed stopped buying Treasury bonds and let investors determine interest rates, they
would certainly want a higher rate of interest than 0%, especially since the dollar seems
to be losing its status as a reserve currency, and as this happens people around the world
won?t want to hold Treasury bonds that will be paid back in dollars. The Fed will have
to create money at a faster and faster pace to keep its promise, because as it creates more
money people worldwide become more skeptical of the dollar and demand higher rates.

In biology, one would call this a positive feedback mechanism, where a process
perpetuates itself and occurs at a faster and faster pace. The only non-central banks
who seem to be buying Treasuries are banks who are being pressured to do so: ?US and
European regulators are essentially forcing banks to buy up their own government?s
debt?. (4)

4.) The US cannot mathematically pay high interest rates.

In 1980, the rate on US Treasury bonds got up past 19%. (5) Let?s imagine that happened
again: the US federal debt is $15.7 trillion. (6) If there was a 19% interest rate on that,
the US would have to pay more than $3 trillion per year in interest. The total income in
taxes that the US takes in is less than that. Logic, economic principle and common sense
dictate that the federal government would have to stop spending any money and the Fed
would still have to print. Taxes would likely go up, but increasing taxes past a certain
point actually reduces tax revenue, as the British recently found out:

?The amount of income tax paid fell sharply last month in the first formal indication that
the new 50p higher rate is not raising the expected amount of revenue.?(7)

5.) The federal debt problem is rapidly getting worse.

The amount of federal spending is absolutely preposterous:

?The typical American household would have paid nearly all of its income in taxes last
year to balance the budget if the government used standard accounting rules to compute
the deficit.? (8)

Good thing all those ?Tea Party? fiscal conservatives were elected to the US House of
Representatives, right? After all, the House is the branch of the legislature wherein every
penny spent must be approved. As the Constitution says, ?All Bills for raising Revenue
shall originate in the House of Representatives.? So, what have they done in office?

?The Republican-controlled House of Representatives, which took office in January
2011, has enacted federal spending bills under which the national debt has increased
more in less than one term of Congress than in the first 97 Congresses combined.?(9)

So get a bigger wallet and buy a new wheelbarrow, because there?s a good chance we?re
all about to play a very successful game of ?Who Wants to be a Millionaire??

[Paul]

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

So get a bigger wallet and buy a new wheelbarrow, because there?s a good chance we?re all about to play a very successful game of ?Who Wants to be a Millionaire??

Very scary!

Sperbonzo what do you think is going to happen in the next few years in the US & Europe?

The numbers at this point are just getting absolutely ridiculous!

[pimpmaster9000]

Ive seen this happen before...its a loooong and sloooow death...will take years and years...people will act like nothing is going on...

[Tijuana_Tom]

You're all kind of morons.

[sperbonzo]

Originally Posted by Paul

Very scary!

Sperbonzo what do you think is going to happen in the next few years in the US & Europe?

The numbers at this point are just getting absolutely ridiculous!

There is no real way to know, but....

It really depends on how quickly it happens. If things fall apart fast, ie. the breakup of the Euro, severe cutbacks in US Federal spending, and massive defaults, I actually see a chance for it to come back together more quickly to an even keel, say in about 3-5 years after it goes into a free fall.

If they try to hold on as long as possible, which is much more likely, then the resulting disaster will be FAR worse, on an order of magnitude. Unfortunately, this is a more likely scenario since the political elite are always working for themselves.


.


.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

If they try to hold on as long as possible, which is much more likely, then the resulting disaster will be FAR worse, on an order of magnitude. Unfortunately, this is a more likely scenario since the political elite are always working for themselves.

.

This is what makes me worry. They could of solved this a couple of years ago and ignored. Still they have no solution. Now Greece has a Government, they will go to ask Berlin for more time. They can't have more time, get them out of the Euro and deal with the problems, giving them money isn't a solution, 90% of the bail out goes to the banks anyway.

[sperbonzo]

Originally Posted by Tijuana_Tom

You're all kind of morons.

Now there is an insightful and well-researched contribution to the discussion. Excellent point!





.

[sperbonzo]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ichael-tanner#

Austerity Works
The road to recovery is not through increased government spending.

By Michael Tanner



As Greece, and now Spain and Italy, struggle with the crushing burden of debt brought on by the modern welfare state, perhaps we should shift our gaze some 1,200 miles north to see how austerity can actually work.

Exhibit #1 is Estonia. This small Baltic nation recently had a spate of notoriety when its president, Toomas Ilves, got into a Twitter debate with Paul Krugman over the country?s austerity policies. Krugman sneered at Estonia as the ?poster child for austerity defenders,? remarking of the nation?s recovery from recession, ?this is what passes for economic triumph?? In return, President Ilves criticized Krugman as ?smug, overbearing, and patronizing.?

Twitter-borne tit-for-tat aside, here are the facts: Estonia had been one of the showcases for free-market economic policies and had been growing steadily until the 2008 economic crisis burst a debt-fueled property bubble, shut off credit flows, and curbed export demand, plunging the country into a severe economic downturn.

However, instead of increasing government spending in hopes of stimulating the economy, as Krugman has urged, the Estonians rejected Keynesianism in favor of genuine austerity. Among other measures, the Estonian government cut public-sector wages by 10 percent, gradually raised the retirement age from 61 to 65 by 2026, reduced eligibility for health benefits, and liberalized the country?s labor market, making it easier for businesses to hire and fire workers.

Estonia did unfortunately enact a small increase in its value-added tax, but it deliberately kept taxes low on businesses, investors, and entrepreneurs, refusing to make changes to its flat 21 percent income tax. In fact, the government has put in place plans to reduce the income tax to 20 percent by 2015.

Today, Estonia is actually running a budget surplus. Its national debt is 6 percent of GDP. By comparison, Greece?s is 159 percent of GDP. Ours is 102 percent.

Economic growth has been a robust 7.6 percent, the best in the EU. And, although the unemployment rate remains too high, at 11.7 percent, that is down from 19 percent during the worst of the recession. It?s hard to see how a Krugman-style stimulus would have done much better.

Next door, Latvia has also embarked on a successful austerity program. In 2008, facing a deep recession ? the worst in Europe, with a 24 percent drop in GDP from 2007 to 2009 ? and a run on the country?s largest bank, Latvia turned to Europe for a ?7.5 billion bailout. But unlike Greece and other countries that seem to look at such assistance as a form of permanent welfare payment, Latvia used the EU loan as an opportunity to make the painful government reforms necessary to restore long-term economic health.

Latvia embarked on the toughest budget cuts in Europe. Half of all government-run agencies were eliminated, the number of public employees was reduced by a third, and public-sector wages were slashed by an average of 25 percent.

In the end, Latvia borrowed just ?4.4 billion of the available ?7.5 billion, and its economy is on the rebound. Unemployment, which reached 19 percent at the height of the recession, has declined to around 15 percent. Real GDP growth was 5.5 percent last yearCanada and is expected to be at least 3.5 percent this year. This year?s budget deficit will be just 1.2 percent of GDP, and the national debt is just 37 percent of GDP and declining. The credit-rating agencies recently upgraded the country?s credit-worthiness. And, while Greece mulls leaving the euro zone, Latvia has been pronounced eligible for membership.



.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Many have been trying to compare this crisis to similar scenarios, when in fact, there isn't one. Sure, many countries like Russia, Argentina, or parts of the old Yugoslav republic failed, but not the world wide financial systems fail collectively. Meaning, Russia/Argentina always had an outside influence or an avenue to recover from. When derivatives fail, everyone is in deep shit because all currencies are FIAT (backed by nothing) and we'll all be starting from ZERO.

Have you ever met anyone alive during the 30's? If so, did you notice they're very thrifty and never throw things away? This isn't because those things could hold some future value, it's because they're available. Meaning, most of everything we own is imported, could you imagine if all that just suddenly stopped?

Simple things like a spark plug, engine oil, air filter, light bulb, tools etc would be worth their weight in gold. Wake up people, you need to be spending at least $200 a month buying/storing these things.

Great post. My grand parents and parents were all around during these times and the war years. They didn't waste money and were "careful" this rubbed off on me. I didn't buy a flash house, flash car or anything similar. We put money into things that will help when the collapse comes.

Now many major banks are being downgraded because they were not so frugal and had more debt than they could cover. Any country or person in a similar situation today is going to have problems.

Austerity, lower taxes, more Government spending (borrowing and wasting) are not going to save us. The problem is very simple.

Third World countries are taking far too much from the world's economy. Simply put the world's economy cannot afford the number of rich countries it has. If China, India, Russia, Brazil and a host of other countries have their wealth increase, it has to be balanced by a decrease in other countries. They have not "created" wealth. They took is from the already wealthy.

The problems started when those countries just borrowed to fill the gap.

Austerity will work, if China, India, Russia, Brazil and a host of other countries join in. We have to return to the living standards the world's economy can support. Consumerism is a flawed model.

[Vapid - BANNED FOR LIFE]

"Maslow's Malthusian hierarchy of wants"