If Corporations Are People, What Kind of People Are They?

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Capitalists and Other Psychopaths

THERE is an ongoing debate in this country about the rich: who they are, what their social role may be, whether they are good or bad. Well, consider the following:

A recent study found that 10 percent of people who work on Wall Street are “clinical psychopaths,” exhibiting a lack of interest in and empathy for others and an “unparalleled capacity for lying, fabrication, and manipulation.”

The proportion at large is 1 percent.

Another study concluded that the rich are more likely to lie, cheat and break the law.

The only thing that puzzles me about these claims is that anyone would find them surprising. Wall Street is capitalism in its purest form, and capitalism is predicated on bad behavior. This should hardly be news. The English writer Bernard Mandeville asserted as much nearly three centuries ago in a satirical-poem-cum-philosophical-treatise called “The Fable of the Bees.”

“Private Vices, Publick Benefits” read the book’s subtitle. A Machiavelli of the economic realm — a man who showed us as we are, not as we like to think we are — Mandeville argued that commercial society creates prosperity by harnessing our natural impulses: fraud, luxury and pride. By “pride” Mandeville meant vanity; by “luxury” he meant the desire for sensuous indulgence. These create demand, as every ad man knows. On the supply side, as we’d say, was fraud: “All Trades and Places knew some Cheat, / No Calling was without Deceit.”

In other words, Enron, BP, Goldman, Philip Morris, G.E., Merck, etc., etc. Accounting fraud, tax evasion, toxic dumping, product safety violations, bid rigging, overbilling, perjury. The Walmart bribery scandal, the News Corp. hacking scandal — just open up the business section on an average day. Shafting your workers, hurting your customers, destroying the land. Leaving the public to pick up the tab. These aren’t anomalies; this is how the system works: you get away with what you can and try to weasel out when you get caught.

I always found the notion of a business school amusing. What kinds of courses do they offer? Robbing Widows and Orphans? Grinding the Faces of the Poor? Having It Both Ways? Feeding at the Public Trough? There was a documentary several years ago called “The Corporation” that accepted the premise that corporations are persons and then asked what kind of people they are. The answer was, precisely, psychopaths: indifferent to others, incapable of guilt, exclusively devoted to their own interests.

There are ethical corporations, yes, and ethical businesspeople, but ethics in capitalism is purely optional, purely extrinsic. To expect morality in the market is to commit a category error. Capitalist values are antithetical to Christian ones. (How the loudest Christians in our public life can also be the most bellicose proponents of an unbridled free market is a matter for their own consciences.) Capitalist values are also antithetical to democratic ones. Like Christian ethics, the principles of republican government require us to consider the interests of others. Capitalism, which entails the single-minded pursuit of profit, would have us believe that it’s every man for himself.

There’s been a lot of talk lately about “job creators,” a phrase begotten by Frank Luntz, the right-wing propaganda guru, on the ghost of Ayn Rand. The rich deserve our gratitude as well as everything they have, in other words, and all the rest is envy.

First of all, if entrepreneurs are job creators, workers are wealth creators. Entrepreneurs use wealth to create jobs for workers. Workers use labor to create wealth for entrepreneurs — the excess productivity, over and above wages and other compensation, that goes to corporate profits. It’s neither party’s goal to benefit the other, but that’s what happens nonetheless.

Also, entrepreneurs and the rich are different and only partly overlapping categories. Most of the rich are not entrepreneurs; they are executives of established corporations, institutional managers of other kinds, the wealthiest doctors and lawyers, the most successful entertainers and athletes, people who simply inherited their money or, yes, people who work on Wall Street.

MOST important, neither entrepreneurs nor the rich have a monopoly on brains, sweat or risk. There are scientists — and artists and scholars — who are just as smart as any entrepreneur, only they are interested in different rewards. A single mother holding down a job and putting herself through community college works just as hard as any hedge fund manager. A person who takes out a mortgage — or a student loan, or who conceives a child — on the strength of a job she knows she could lose at any moment (thanks, perhaps, to one of those job creators) assumes as much risk as someone who starts a business.

Enormous matters of policy depend on these perceptions: what we’re going to tax, and how much; what we’re going to spend, and on whom. But while “job creators” may be a new term, the adulation it expresses — and the contempt that it so clearly signals — are not. “Poor Americans are urged to hate themselves,” Kurt Vonnegut wrote in “Slaughterhouse-Five.” And so, “they mock themselves and glorify their betters.” Our most destructive lie, he added, “is that it is very easy for any American to make money.” The lie goes on. The poor are lazy, stupid and evil. The rich are brilliant, courageous and good. They shower their beneficence upon the rest of us.

Mandeville believed the individual pursuit of self-interest could redound to public benefit, but unlike Adam Smith, he didn’t think it did so on its own. Smith’s “hand” was “invisible” — the automatic operation of the market. Mandeville’s involved “the dextrous Management of a skilful Politician” — in modern terms, legislation, regulation and taxation. Or as he versified it, “Vice is beneficial found, / When it’s by Justice lopt, and bound.”

Discuss...

ADG

[shake]

That's a lot of words...

[brassmonkey]

im not reading all that shit

[papill0n]

in my brain i got a capitalist migraine

[L-Pink]

My current stock portfolio is based on major natural disasters occurring within the next 8-10 months. I'm anxiously awaiting the suffering of others so I may live better.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by papill0n

in my brain i got a capitalist migraine

ADG

[The Porn Nerd]

Okay, I'd like to discuss the following:

How much I admire ADG and his clever pics and postings.

How ALL OF THIS SHIT is the fault of the Baby Boomers; we always had greed, corruption, etc but this fucking generation (the "Me Generation", remember) has taken avirice to new heights. It's a fucking art form to the Boomers.

George Carlin said it best: "The Baby Boomers, a generation that can be summed up with one phrase: "I want it, it's mine". Fuck 'em."

I'd also like to discuss why I am not "rich" in the conventional sense, and after being in this crazy adult business four years and counting. I'm even a corporation so wtf.

Discuss.

[IllTestYourGirls]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

ADG

Insurance companies don't heal people. Hospitals and doctors do.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Insurance companies don't heal people. Hospitals and doctors do.

Not in my experience.

[2012]

shiny happy people with only your best interests at heart of course

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by 2012

shiny happy people with only your best interests at heart of course

ADG

[Bladewire]

.

My best guess . . .

































































.

[bronco67]

It doesn't take a genius to know there's a character flaw in people who will do anything to make as much money as possible, with as little effort as possible, and most likely at the expense of other people. I say throw them all in a ditch and pour gasoline on them.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

Corporations ARE people....I mean it's not like they're some giant robots or something. It's people making the ultimate decisions

However, government interference creates the real mess

ADG

[2012]

Originally Posted by AsianDivaGirlsWebDude

ADG

let me subliminally enter your mind mr adgggged . ah, okay got it, i think. this will torment me for hours ...

The problem isn't Capitalism in it's purest form but the perverted , rigged shithole it's become ... kind of like everything else.

[garce]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

Not in my experience.

Even in glorious, Michael Moore and Bill Clinton loving Canada, I have three very close relatives who were killed by incompetance in the last few years. I'd have more examples, but I'm running out of elder family members.

Short form:

My Uncle Frank had lung cancer. They caught it early and removed it. We were all ecstatic! He wasn't free and clear - there was a good chance it would recur sometime in the future.

Unfortunately, he caught pneumonia while in hospital and the nurse improperly inserted his shunt. After surviving numerous surgeries and years of treatment, he drowned to death on his own internal fluids in a hospital bed in Peterborough. He was a guard at Kingston Penetentiary. Not a low-life like me.

My gorgeous, sainted, 94 year old grandmother broke her hip two years after her son (see above paragraph) died. She spent two weeks in a corridor because they could not find her a bed. Her doctor actually drove across Ontario trying - without success - to find one fucking hospital bed for a woman who paid taxes longer than most people have been alive. She lived independantly until about age 92. She died in a hallway.

Never had a drink of alcohol in her life (outside of the church where she was the organist), but she died while pumped full of morphine. In a corrider, but not alone.

My mom. I could write a book on this one. I won't, though. Not here. She could have been saved five years before she died if not for the bureaucracy, paperwork, and politics involved in getting a senior serious and rapid medical help in a socialist province. It took TWO YEARS to get approved for therapy and get and oxygen machine in the house.

It was against the law for me to purchase these services and equipment - I had to wait in line. Rich people go to the States for medical care. I could not afford to do that.

Don't ever think Canada has excellent medical service. Its free for mundane shit (Oh, I cut my finger! Oh, I need a flu shot! Oh, I had a baby!) - but when it comes to serious, life-saving care - particularly for the elderly - run away.

When you are old, you WILL die here. Canada abolished the death penalty? Try being retired taxpayer with a chronical ailment.

You die.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Originally Posted by L-Pink

I'm anxiously awaiting the suffering of others so I may live better.

No need to wait...



And that's the richest capitalist country on earth.

More to mull over:



I'm concerned about the sustainability of capitalism, as well as the impact of capitalism on ecology.

ADG

[xNetworx]

Originally Posted by bronco67

It doesn't take a genius to know there's a character flaw in people who will do anything to make as much money as possible, with as little effort as possible, and most likely at the expense of other people. I say throw them all in a ditch and pour gasoline on them.

Well you can light 99% of GFY on fire now

[asdasd]

What Man Devil said.

[epitome]

Originally Posted by garce

Even in glorious, Michael Moore and Bill Clinton loving Canada, I have three very close relatives who were killed by incompetance in the last few years. I'd have more examples, but I'm running out of elder family members.

Short form:

My Uncle Frank had lung cancer. They caught it early and removed it. We were all ecstatic! He wasn't free and clear - there was a good chance it would recur sometime in the future.

Unfortunately, he caught pneumonia while in hospital and the nurse improperly inserted his shunt. After surviving numerous surgeries and years of treatment, he drowned to death on his own internal fluids in a hospital bed in Peterborough. He was a guard at Kingston Penetentiary. Not a low-life like me.

My gorgeous, sainted, 94 year old grandmother broke her hip two years after her son (see above paragraph) died. She spent two weeks in a corridor because they could not find her a bed. Her doctor actually drove across Ontario trying - without success - to find one fucking hospital bed for a woman who paid taxes longer than most people have been alive. She lived independantly until about age 92. She died in a hallway.

Never had a drink of alcohol in her life (outside of the church where she was the organist), but she died while pumped full of morphine. In a corrider, but not alone.

My mom. I could write a book on this one. I won't, though. Not here. She could have been saved five years before she died if not for the bureaucracy, paperwork, and politics involved in getting a senior serious and rapid medical help in a socialist province. It took TWO YEARS to get approved for therapy and get and oxygen machine in the house.

It was against the law for me to purchase these services and equipment - I had to wait in line. Rich people go to the States for medical care. I could not afford to do that.

Don't ever think Canada has excellent medical service. Its free for mundane shit (Oh, I cut my finger! Oh, I need a flu shot! Oh, I had a baby!) - but when it comes to serious, life-saving care - particularly for the elderly - run away.

When you are old, you WILL die here. Canada abolished the death penalty? Try being retired taxpayer with a chronical ailment.

You die.

sadly, that happens everywhere. America too. A lot of people die because they are happy to pay for health insurance but nobody will accept them (that has changed and hopefully supreme court won't strike it).

I had the unpleasant experience of watching a nurse accidently kill my neighbor in the hospital with his feeding tube. It was an accident. Then I had to lie across from him while his family came in to say goodbye. He was moved to the morgue a few hours later.

[The Porn Nerd]

Corporations are people when they can eat, breathe, shit and fuck.

Someone go back to the Supreme Court "ruling" in the late 1800's where all this bullshit with corporations being people started.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[Joshua G]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

Okay, I'd like to discuss the following:

How much I admire ADG and his clever pics and postings.

How ALL OF THIS SHIT is the fault of the Baby Boomers; we always had greed, corruption, etc but this fucking generation (the "Me Generation", remember) has taken avirice to new heights. It's a fucking art form to the Boomers.

George Carlin said it best: "The Baby Boomers, a generation that can be summed up with one phrase: "I want it, it's mine". Fuck 'em."

this pretty much sums it up.

corporations are merely reflections of their leadership, namely boomers. All the shit started in the 80s, when the boomers started fucking it all up. government, corporations, you name it, boomers fucked it up. its the boomers that dodged service that hyped us into Iraq. boomers that run wall street that converted the cultures to a cesspool.

Find a man who worked at goldman sachs in the 70s & ask him about his corporation now. I know one. He told me how much his company was committed to its clients. contrast that with Jon Corzine.

there are plenty of corporations that contribute to charity, that encourage their employees to do so. i used to work at one. but you'd never find such corporations mentioned in this crap by the new york times.

i would love to know what study finds 10% of wall street employees to be clinical psychpaths. who funded that, occupy wall street?

unfortunately a lot of words were committed to generalized & meaningless drivel. for example, the comment that "capitalist values is antithetical to christian values" is simply stated as fact, absolutely no substance to back it up. If a corporation encourages its employees to help the community through habitat for humanity, that seems obviously in line with christian values. Way too easy to rip these arguments down.

for this reason, i would conclude the article undermines its own premise, because it lacks intellectual heft. They shoulda just hired chomsky instead of a twit.

[Bill8]

I'm not sure what the OP's point actually is.

I don't think you would get any argument that our society concentrates sociopaths at the top.

So? We all know this. It's self-evident.

Whattya wanna do about it? That's the interesting problem.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by Bill8

I don't think you would get any argument that our society concentrates sociopaths at the top.

If that's true...and "sociopaths" are at the "top". Then that means that most people aren't smart enough to keep up with these so-called "sociopaths" who have left your ass in the dust in the game of life.

If ambition, drive, hard work, and loving to make money makes me a "sociopath"...then I plead "guilty".

Now get the fuck out of my way slackers...I got money to make, cars to drive, whiskey to drink and women to take.

[DaddyHalbucks]

What kind of people are they?

In a word-- productive.

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

What kind of people are they?

In a word-- productive.

No! Don't you understand? They are people who are just greedy and don't work for anything.

We have to keep hating smart, productive people who can run circles around most people and make money like crazy. We can't have people hating on the Government now can we? So let's keep everybody distracted with class envy

Look at Goldman Sachs. They lost 2 billion dollars last quarter. And the govt. is screaming they need MORE regulations.

Meanwhile...back in Washington D.C. : The GOVERNMENT "loses" over 13 billion dollars EVERY DAY in deficit spending.

And those evil oil companies? Well Chevron made 7.8 billion dollars just in the 3rd quarter of 2011!
Meanwhile...back in Washington D.C. : The GOVERNMENT brought in 5.09 TRILLION dollars in revenue! And still managed to run several TRILLION dollars in deficits!

Yeah...I think the REAL criminals and fat cat rich boys are sitting right in Washington D.C. laughing at all of us.

[The Porn Nerd]

IF corporations paid their rightful share of taxes soceity would be in better shape, period. These billion dollar fuckers avoid paying almost any taxes (comparitively) and shift the burden to people making UNDER 100k a year.

But the agenda is quite simple: rich get richer, poor get poorer, kill the "middle" class thereby killing off any threats to said rich (because the poor ain't got shit). Simple. The Boomers are doing it better than anyone else has ever done it, that's all.

[epitome]

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

lol wtf??

Accidents happen. Medical people are still just people. I've had some shit happen that I could probably get a small pay day from but I feel the doctors were working in my best interests and didn't intend to make a mistake. Besides tort is one of the reasons health care is so fucking expensive.

[2012]

[Robbie]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

IF corporations paid their rightful share of taxes soceity would be in better shape, period. These billion dollar fuckers avoid paying almost any taxes (comparitively) and shift the burden to people making UNDER 100k a year.

But the agenda is quite simple: rich get richer, poor get poorer, kill the "middle" class thereby killing off any threats to said rich (because the poor ain't got shit). Simple. The Boomers are doing it better than anyone else has ever done it, that's all.

Mr. Peabody...if every corporation paid 100% of everything they make...it still wouldn't be enough to cover what the U.S. Govt. is spending every year. It's totally unsustainable. TRILLIONS of dollars every year...It wasn't that long ago that kind of number was unthinkable.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

A few people said that they did not understand my original point. In a major Supreme Court case in January 2010, referred to as the "Citizens United", the Roberts-led court ruled 5-4, that with regards to campaign spending, corporations are to be afforded the same type of rights previously only conferred upon individual citizens.

WASHINGTON ? Overruling two important precedents about the First Amendment rights of corporations, a bitterly divided Supreme Court on Thursday ruled that the government may not ban political spending by corporations in candidate elections.

The 5-to-4 decision was a vindication, the majority said, of the First Amendment?s most basic free speech principle ? that the government has no business regulating political speech. The dissenters said that allowing corporate money to flood the political marketplace would corrupt democracy.

The ruling represented a sharp doctrinal shift, and it will have major political and practical consequences. Specialists in campaign finance law said they expected the decision to reshape the way elections were conducted.

Simply put, corporations (including foreign corporations/corporate interests) may now contribute huge amounts of their corporate money (not their own personal money), to try and influence citizens votes and politicians votes on government policy - costs which they can conceivably pass along to consumers (the voters whose votes they are trying to influence).

If you think corporations have too much influence in Washington now, the Citizens United decision, if left unchecked, will further exacerbate the situation, and further diminish democracy and free speech in this country.

What would I like to see?

Government financing of elections, shorter election cycles, and fair representation for all political parties, including others than the current two dominant parties.

Personally, I would also like the US to adopt a Parliamentary form of government to ensure greater participation and representation (although that is another subject, and unlikely to occur).

ADG

[CaptainHowdy]

[sperbonzo]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

IF corporations paid their rightful share of taxes soceity would be in better shape, period. These billion dollar fuckers avoid paying almost any taxes (comparitively) and shift the burden to people making UNDER 100k a year.

But the agenda is quite simple: rich get richer, poor get poorer, kill the "middle" class thereby killing off any threats to said rich (because the poor ain't got shit). Simple. The Boomers are doing it better than anyone else has ever done it, that's all.

uhhhhh.... you do understand that taxes are always treated by a business as an expense, a cost, (if you are running it right), and therefore passed on to the customer in the price of the product or service right? So if you raise taxes on corporations then the price of their products must go up in order to cover this added cost, and therefore the average citizen is paying them. If you raise taxes on businesses so much that their pricing is no longer competitive, then they simply move, or go out of business. When that happens a country goes in the shitter.


I don't get how a grown up person in business doesn't understand that basic fact....




.

[Tom_PM]

A corporation is a legal document.

[The Porn Nerd]

I agree Robbie that Gov't spending must be reduced. We spend WAY too much on Defense, useless services, etc. But still, corporations SHOULD pay their taxes. Any "good American" should, right?

Which leads me to this:

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

uhhhhh.... you do understand that taxes are always treated by a business as an expense, a cost, (if you are running it right), and therefore passed on to the customer in the price of the product or service right? So if you raise taxes on corporations then the price of their products must go up in order to cover this added cost, and therefore the average citizen is paying them. If you raise taxes on businesses so much that their pricing is no longer competitive, then they simply move, or go out of business. When that happens a country goes in the shitter.


I don't get how a grown up person in business doesn't understand that basic fact....


.

First, spoken like a true Republican tool who swallows all the propaganda like a good little citizen. I realize taxes are an 'expense" that's "passed on" to the consumer....but as a businessman with a calculater I'm sure you could crunch the numbers to see that a giant corporation would have to raise their prices maybe .000003% to cover the additional cost of taxes.

But your basic premise is wrong anyway. I charge $34.95 per membership, and have to pay corporate and personal taxes from that income. So I should "pass that along" to my customers and charge them what, $44.95? Ridiculous.

When the ONLY VALUE is HOW MUCH MONEY CAN I/THE CORPORATION MAKE then any of these rational, reasonable, "fair" arguments fall on deaf ears. GREED trumps everything. FUCK everyone, fuck taxes, fuck YOU - pay me.

Pathetic. And what a wonderful soceity to live in where no one gives a fuck about anyone else! Oh joy.

[onwebcam]

Well, if you ever want to kill someone (or many someones) start a corporation and hide behind it when the time comes.

[oppoten]

Jewish people

[scottybuzz]

capatalism is great but people abuse it
comunism is great but people abuse it.

People abuse. That is the problem. Fix the corruption and I would be happy with either system !

[PR_Glen]

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

uhhhhh.... you do understand that taxes are always treated by a business as an expense, a cost, (if you are running it right), and therefore passed on to the customer in the price of the product or service right? So if you raise taxes on corporations then the price of their products must go up in order to cover this added cost, and therefore the average citizen is paying them. If you raise taxes on businesses so much that their pricing is no longer competitive, then they simply move, or go out of business. When that happens a country goes in the shitter.


I don't get how a grown up person in business doesn't understand that basic fact....




.

not to mention your corporate tax rate is higher than any place else in the world.. 35% is ridiculously high already and the lone reason why huge conglomerates base their operations abroad still.

misterpeabody do you seriously run a business and not realize that? We pay 15% here in canada and business growth is flourishing because of it.

[GregE]

Originally Posted by IllTestYourGirls

Insurance companies don't heal people. Hospitals and doctors do.

Well, yeah, that would be the top step.



Problem is, it's kind of hard to get there for those who don't have access to the lower ones.

Perhaps that's why the rest of the civilized world has single payer healthcare

[BlackCrayon]

a corporation or any type of business cannot be a person by definition it just doesn't make any sense. corporations don't breathe and eat, they don't have emotions and they don't die. You can't transfer a person's body from one party to another, like you can with a corporation. not to mention, if corporations are people why are they taxed at a different rate than individuals, since the are..people! Anyone who thinks a corporation fits the definition of a person is either ignorant or insane.

[sperbonzo]

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

First, spoken like a true Republican tool who swallows all the propaganda like a good little citizen.

I hate republicans. They want to grow government as much as the left does.

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

I realize taxes are an 'expense" that's "passed on" to the consumer....but as a businessman with a calculater I'm sure you could crunch the numbers to see that a giant corporation would have to raise their prices maybe .000003% to cover the additional cost of taxes.

Unfortunately, business accounting quotes on the internet are only correct .000003% of the time

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

But your basic premise is wrong anyway. I charge $34.95 per membership, and have to pay corporate and personal taxes from that income. So I should "pass that along" to my customers and charge them what, $44.95? Ridiculous.

You already do pass that along. If your living expenses and costs of doing business were lower, you could lower your prices, if your prices didn't cover your expenses, you would be losing money and go out of business.

Originally Posted by MisterPeabody

When the ONLY VALUE is HOW MUCH MONEY CAN I/THE CORPORATION MAKE then any of these rational, reasonable, "fair" arguments fall on deaf ears. GREED trumps everything. FUCK everyone, fuck taxes, fuck YOU - pay me.
Pathetic. And what a wonderful soceity to live in where no one gives a fuck about anyone else! Oh joy.

The average business makes between 8 and 10% profit. I would guess that you make more than $3.50 per join.... Why don't you lower your prices and only make 10% like most other businesses? Better yet, why don't you take everything you make over the $3.50 per join and send it to the government so that they can decide how to spend it? Why are you so selfish and greedy?


.

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

ADG

[Tom_PM]

I dont mind at ALL the idea of a low corp. tax. I DO mind the nonsense like corps are people and entitled to speech, and that money = speech. Shit like that is just retardulous.