The EU dream, how much longer until it's dead?

[Paul Markham]

The politicians and bureaucrats had a dream of a united Europe, much along thhe lines of America. Today that dream is is further away than they imagines and getting further away very day.

It was sold to the populations of each country as a Europe without boundaries, no trade barriers, easy movement from country to country and a few other benefits. While the politicians and bureaucrats set up committees and boards who churned out legislation as fast as the printers could print it. some that some countries ignored completely, some that were an open door for criminals to exploit and much a total waste of time. Many of these new laws took power away from elected Governments.

Then they set up a single currency and the legislation makers chose to ignore making legislations. Leaving it to elected Governments to decide how much to borrow and spend. Today we have laws on the ingredients of a sausage in the EU and not on how much debt a country can incur and pass onto the EU.

Debt that has stuck the pin of reality into the dream of an United EU.

The problem is fundamental. They wanted a United States of Europe. The people voting for them want to be German, French, British, Spanish, etc.

[DamianJ]

[EddyTheDog]

I was/am pro Europe, it was never going to work as a 3 tier system though.

The only bright side is that the Euro will crash and burn and my UK Pounds will be worth more when I get back to Spain.

Thanks for the pic Damian!

[janosik]

The whole concept of EU is wrong. There are too many nations with too many social habits, cultures etc. What works in America does not work here. I see more and more people complaining about EU not listening to the voice of masses. All what happened since my country joined EU are MUCH higher prices, insane corruption, flood of global and Asian companies abusing our cheap workforce and total destruction of local agriculture while importing cheap and low quality food from outside. I remember 10 years ago when I was at university and wrote a research paper about possible negative influece of joining EU. I had nothing but trouble because of this. Funny is, that now most of the information I wrote there became reality.

[JFK]

Originally Posted by janosik

The whole concept of EU is wrong. There are too many nations with too many social habits, cultures etc. What works in America does not work here. I see more and more people complaining about EU not listening to the voice of masses. All what happened since my country joined EU are MUCH higher prices, insane corruption, flood of global and Asian companies abusing our cheap workforce and total destruction of local agriculture while importing cheap and low quality food from outside. I remember 10 years ago when I was at university and wrote a research paper about possible negative influece of joining EU. I had nothing but trouble because of this. Funny is, that now most of the information I wrote there became reality.

There is nothing wrong with the concept, the implementation however went wrong. The hundreds of years of conflicts between various ethnic factions, still to this day, rear their ugly heads.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by JFK

There is nothing wrong with the concept, the implementation however went wrong. The hundreds of years of conflicts between various ethnic factions, still to this day, rear their ugly heads.

There is.

The concept was to join all the nations of Europe under one governing body. The people of the different countries would never stand for that. They wanted a single currency, yet knew individual countries would no give up control on their economies. Without a single control of the currency, countries could borrow as they wished. The banks thought the richer Nations would under right the debt. Now we will see if Germans will repay the debts of Greece, Spain and Italy.

The Euro is doomed. Yet still the politicos will not accept it and o the route they have to. For some countries to get out and go back to their own currency. They will have to and it will happen, but still they will not face the truth. You can't link the economies of countries like Greece and Portugal to Germany and France. The UK was wise enough to stay out, or the politicians knew the electorate would never stand for it.

[v4 media]

Nothing wrong with the EU, a lot wrong with the Euro.
Taking away a countries ability to set interest rates is a bad idea.

When Spain was booming, Germany and France weren't so interest rates kept getting cut when here they should have been going up to stop inflation.

They ran a budget surplus for years, and people just chucked money at the country, so it got spunked on stupid vanity projects. Every community had to build something they didn't really need cause the next community had built something.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by v4 media

Nothing wrong with the EU, a lot wrong with the Euro.
Taking away a countries ability to set interest rates is a bad idea.

When Spain was booming, Germany and France weren't so interest rates kept getting cut when here they should have been going up to stop inflation.

They ran a budget surplus for years, and people just chucked money at the country, so it got spunked on stupid vanity projects. Every community had to build something they didn't really need cause the next community had built something.

So you're happy to have your children taught English as their first language, to think of themselves as Europeans before Spanish, to have all the major laws, taxes, Health, defense, immigration, financial policies, etc set in Strasbourg?

Because that was the dream.

One currency = One set interest rate, borrowing, spending, etc control. And without one currency, language and one set of laws the EU dream of the politicians and bureaucrats was never going to happen.

Forget about it just being about trade and commerce politicians and bureaucrats had a much bigger dream.

[v4 media]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So you're happy to have your children taught English as their first language, to think of themselves as Europeans before Spanish, to have all the major laws, taxes, Health, defense, immigration, financial policies, etc set in Strasbourg?

Because that was the dream.

One currency = One set interest rate, borrowing, spending, etc control. And without one currency, language and one set of laws the EU dream of the politicians and bureaucrats was never going to happen.

Forget about it just being about trade and commerce politicians and bureaucrats had a much bigger dream.

My kid does think of himself as Spanish even though he's part English, Welsh, Italian, Basque and Spanish.

However he is taught in Spanish, which was difficult enough to do, as in the Basque country they're taught in Basque, in Catalunya, Catalan, in Galicia, Galician and now in Valenica, Valencian.

I had to move from Alicante to stop my kid getting taught more than 1/2 of his subjects in a regional dialect that no one speaks.

If anything this countries gone more regional than European these past few years.

Also
laws, taxes, Health, are set at regional level, not state. If the EU tries to take any of those away from the regions they would find Catalunya and the Basque country leaving.

[u-Bob]

The problem when discussing the "concept of the Euro or EU" is that there's more than one concept.

I've been saying this for years now on this board... even long before the Greek debacle hit the media: read "The Tragedy Of The Euro" by Philipp Bagus. He did a great job at explaining how the eurozone works. He predicted the current mess and... and part of the book is dedicated to the history of the Euro.

Different groups wanted the Euro for different reasons. There's those who wanted a free trade zone because they (rightfully) believe that the freedom to trade goods and services leads to more prosperity.

There's also those who supported the Euro because their own countries were virtually bankrupt and they understood that the Euro would allow them to continue their irresponsible behavior by transferring the costs onto other countries. Itally, Belgium, Greece,.. are good examples of this.

The French played a similar role. The French had been systematically printing new money to fund their socialist projects. (West) German 'frugality' was a thorn in their eyes. The Germans refused to inflate their currency (too much). Not a surprise since they had seen the effects of hyperinflation in the 1920s. This put a damper on the French plans because if they went too far in their inflationary schemes, it would immediately become obvious. (Franc/Mark ex rate).

In the French president Mitterand's own memories you can read that he forced the Germans to join the Euro or else he would veto the reunification of Germany (which was at that time still being occupied).

[femdomdestiny]

Eu is destroying smaller nations and their culture. But they don't have a choice anywaY.

[2intense]

Originally Posted by DamianJ

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by v4 media

My kid does think of himself as Spanish even though he's part English, Welsh, Italian, Basque and Spanish.

However he is taught in Spanish, which was difficult enough to do, as in the Basque country they're taught in Basque, in Catalunya, Catalan, in Galicia, Galician and now in Valenica, Valencian.

I had to move from Alicante to stop my kid getting taught more than 1/2 of his subjects in a regional dialect that no one speaks.

If anything this countries gone more regional than European these past few years.

Also
laws, taxes, Health, are set at regional level, not state. If the EU tries to take any of those away from the regions they would find Catalunya and the Basque country leaving.

Great explanation of why the dream was never going to work. Thanks.

[pimpware]

The EU dream, how much longer until it's dead?

The politicians dream, the people pay the bill

[slapass]

As an american, I see it as a great idea. The countries can no longer just run up debt because they want to. Do any of you think that Greece was being well run before this problem? You can't just pay everyone to hang out.

The EU looks like a success from my vantage point.

[Ross]

You said it opened the doors for criminals, which in part is true, but look at the USA with their closed borders, how many tv shows are there about the drugs and shit getting through? Both systems have flaws. I for one love how easy it is for me to travel throughout Europe.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by Ross

You said it opened the doors for criminals, which in part is true, but look at the USA with their closed borders, how many tv shows are there about the drugs and shit getting through? Both systems have flaws. I for one love how easy it is for me to travel throughout Europe.

If there is more crime in Europe today than there was before, then something is wrong. Doesn't matter what the United States does or doesn't do, they are completely separate.

Why Americans want to compare the United States to Europe and why Europeans want to compare Europe with the United States is beyond me. We may all be humans, but we have completely different backgrounds, different upbringings, and different culture. All I need to do is say the word "gun" and all hell will break loose between Americans and Europeans. That's just one example.

We are different.

[baddog]

With the right of entitlement expected by today's youth there is no way they are going to be willing to tighten their belts to make it work. I give it a year.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Ross

I for one love how easy it is for me to travel throughout Europe.

Like we can travel thru the US?

[ThumbLord]

200 years at least, some new countries will become members, others will (have to) leave.

[SGS]

The EU dream, how much longer until it's dead?

About the summer of 2011 the history books will read.

[EddyTheDog]

Originally Posted by baddog

Like we can travel thru the US?

Its the same as the US for the Shengen countries.

http://www.axa-schengen.com/en/schengen-countries

[baddog]

Originally Posted by EddyTheDog

Its the same as the US for the Shengen countries.

http://www.axa-schengen.com/en/schengen-countries

hmmm, I seem to recall having to go thru customs when I went from AMS to Prague. What am I not comprehending? I don't recall that happening when going from AMS to BCN (or visa versa) and definitely no issues when going from Spain to Andorra, NL to Germany.

[Antonio]

it's not a dream, it's a reality and even though there are posts that the EU is falling apart every two months on this board, it's still pretty much intact

Are there problems? Sure. Can things get done better? Of course. Then again, do you really think that everything is peachy in the US, Russia, Africa, Asia, or anywhere else outside the EU?

[Sid70]

I can't say economically wise but i hate that Montenegro is now a new Italy. Indeed, its a fucking globalization you can have the same capuccino everywhere.

[Rochard]

Originally Posted by janosik

The whole concept of EU is wrong. There are too many nations with too many social habits, cultures etc. What works in America does not work here. I see more and more people complaining about EU not listening to the voice of masses. All what happened since my country joined EU are MUCH higher prices, insane corruption, flood of global and Asian companies abusing our cheap workforce and total destruction of local agriculture while importing cheap and low quality food from outside. I remember 10 years ago when I was at university and wrote a research paper about possible negative influece of joining EU. I had nothing but trouble because of this. Funny is, that now most of the information I wrote there became reality.

I think I agree. I've only been to Europe a handful of times, but the differences between the US and Europe are huge. The US is one country with one government. Europe is nearly 30 countries with 30 governments - and very different goals, needs, and wants. On top of all of this, sixty years ago all of these countries were at war with each other. While they can talk about how great they get along, I doubt that a German will ever be the leader of the UK.

I do see a time when we have regional governments - North America, South America, Africa, Europe, Asia, etc. It just makes sense. But we aren't there yet.

[Sid70]

Originally Posted by Antonio

it's not a dream, it's a reality and even though there are posts that the EU is falling apart every two months on this board, it's still pretty much intact

Are there problems? Sure. Can things get done better? Of course. Then again, do you really think that everything is peachy in the US, Russia, Africa, Asia, or anywhere else outside the EU?

It sure is fun in Sparta.

[pornmasta]

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by femdomdestiny

Eu is destroying smaller nations and their culture. But they don't have a choice anywaY.

The people who vote in the politicians do and are making it clear. In the UK Scotland and Wales wants to self govern, or the politicians want it. They sell it on a lie that all their problems will go away once they govern themselves.

Czechoslovakia once it got away from Communism decided to split. The Czechs were glad to see the back of them. Germany and Italy were only reunified in recent history. Spain still seems fragmented.

The problem is simple, European history, cultures and languages go back 1,000s of years. The USA goes back a few hundred. Imagine the Sioux, Apache and Arapaho amalgamating. Well that's what they dreamed of with Europe.

[pornmasta]

Soon in griechenland:

[janosik]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Czechoslovakia once it got away from Communism decided to split. The Czechs were glad to see the back of them. Germany and Italy were only reunified in recent history. Spain still seems fragmented.

The problem is simple, European history, cultures and languages go back 1,000s of years. The USA goes back a few hundred. Imagine the Sioux, Apache and Arapaho amalgamating. Well that's what they dreamed of with Europe.

Czechoslovakia never decided to split. It was purely political decision. Nobody asked us. There was no referendum. And result? Now both of our nations have even weaker position in the EU. I hope EU dream will end this year

[Robbie]

EU is a great idea. But the different countries there just made too many promises from the govt.

"Free" health care and the govt. basically trying to coddle the populace like a giant nanny state has driven countries like Greece to the ground (with many others following). And that is dragging down the more productive countries like Germany.

And now the French have revolted against trying to get their finances in order by electing a Socialist President in the hopes of more "free" stuff from the govt.

It's gonna fall apart unfortunately. And I hope that the people of the U.S. see what happens with "Free" health care and govt. running the show in Europe and doesn't let it get that far here.

[Cherry7]

There is one tragedy of the EU, a porn master who moved to a country for the pretty girls and ended up stuck there.

Not speaking the language, with no friends, he haunts forums posting any shit that comes into his head, in a mad attempt to drive out the loneliness and fill his empty life.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by pimpware

The politicians dream, the people pay the bill

The people spent the money from the politicians dream. It was used to bribe them.

The debts didn't disappear into the pockets of a few, it was used to pay public servants, over generous pensions, benefits, public works projects, etc. Like all the debts countries run up. Now the credit has run out and the banks don't want to lend and know if they don't the house of cards collapses.

So now loans are being used to repay debts and keep the house from collapsing.

Ross, my statement about criminals referred to the criminals taking advantage of EU regulations and laws. They found new ways of making money.

[DaLord]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

So you're happy to have your children taught English as their first language, to think of themselves as Europeans before Spanish, to have all the major laws, taxes, Health, defense, immigration, financial policies, etc set in Strasbourg?

Because that was the dream.

One currency = One set interest rate, borrowing, spending, etc control. And without one currency, language and one set of laws the EU dream of the politicians and bureaucrats was never going to happen.

Forget about it just being about trade and commerce politicians and bureaucrats had a much bigger dream.

What kind of bullshit is that, Paul? You're just pull things out of your ass now without knowing what you're talking about. I rarely bash anyone but whatever you got going there seem completely taken out of the thin air. English as first language? Really. No offcial EU office has suggested that to my knowledge.

[pornmasta]

Originally Posted by Robbie

And now the French have revolted against trying to get their finances in order by electing a Socialist President in the hopes of more "free" stuff from the govt.

Sarkozy is a dangerous demagogue

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by DaLord

What kind of bullshit is that, Paul? You're just pull things out of your ass now without knowing what you're talking about. I rarely bash anyone but whatever you got going there seem completely taken out of the thin air. English as first language? Really. No offcial EU office has suggested that to my knowledge.

To have one EU as they envisioned would need one language to ensure the freedom of movement. So it wouldn't be Danish, German or French. so it has to be English. English would become a compulsory second language then a first. They don't propose it yet, because they know the reaction it would get. Which you displayed.

Thinking that it was going to stop with one currency is naive. One currency, Government, set of laws, police, etc. Was the dream. Otherwise their dream was never going to happen.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by janosik

Czechoslovakia never decided to split. It was purely political decision. Nobody asked us. There was no referendum. And result? Now both of our nations have even weaker position in the EU. I hope EU dream will end this year

I apologise, I thought it was put to a vote in Slovakia.

The dream is now just a dream, reality has set in. A Trading Agreement is great, once anyone sees how the Agricultural Policy was set up, they see the flaws. Local politicians playing to farmers to get voted in.

Led to farms that should close being State Funded and larger farmers becoming very rich. In Portugal they were paid to grow oranges and no one bothered to pick them, no point. They were paid just to grow them. Led to the milk and wine lake, mountains of wheat and other produce rotting.

[DamianJ]

Originally Posted by DaLord

What kind of bullshit is that, Paul? You're just pull things out of your ass now without knowing what you're talking about. I rarely bash anyone but whatever you got going there seem completely taken out of the thin air.

Are you new here?

All he ever does is pull things out of his ass without knowing what he is talking about.

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Where did it all go wrong?

Like the core of everything. Energy. Two types of energy, oil that fuels industrial growth and labor. The Europeans never had a chance as we Americans control most of the fossil fuel markets by consumption and our military. China and India have the monopoly on cheap labor. In short, China and India are in an industrial revolution with our technical advancements, intelligence, and limitless supply of cheap labor.

This is why companies like Apple and their stock are so valuable. Their labor costs are 1/10th of what they'd be if made in the EU or the US. Also, companies and corporate heads will shed their citizenship for tax reasons and become cloud corporations and actually get government subsidies from countries to employ management there.

Where is this all going?

Globalization as the worlds being carved up into segments like any Corporation. Europe has exhausted most of their natural resources as they rarely if ever develop anything new. Better yes, new no. They've lived in a social excess for so long they actually feel entitled and why the EU is breaking apart. A simple comparison is Greece, a 55 year old factory worker can retire and receive a pension and full medical and in China, nothing in comparison.

Meaning, Europe and the US must crash because of globalization as it has to get so bad publicly, that our workers must shed any entitlement to compete with global labor as even skilled labor is not a valuable commodity anymore due to technology. This will never happen in the US or EU as politician would never be elected if they told the truth. So we'll just keep printing (defibrillator) until we all collectively acknowledge, hey it's fucking dead, lets rebuilt and move on.

That's our future and if you can't figure it out by now, well you're ignorant.

And we all buy the disposable cheap goods.

Czech when I first came here was just getting out of years of Communist rule and relatively poor. Now it's booming like other places in Eastern Europe, because of the jobs coming here from Western Europe. Not new jobs, well they are here, just moved jobs.

Now IBM are not employing new, as the expansion plans are centered on India. China will not be so stupid as to allow Global companies to come in and take over.