And another 2 Billion in our tax money thrown away....

[sperbonzo]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/worlds...les-bankruptcy

Central planning by governments works out great once again....

"World's Largest Solar Plant, With Second Largest Ever Department of Energy Loan Guarantee, Files For Bankruptcy


Solyndra was just the appetizer. Earlier today, in what will come as a surprise only to members of the administration, the company which proudly held the rights to the world's largest solar power project, the hilariously named Solar Trust of America ("STA"), filed for bankruptcy. And while one could say that the company's epic collapse is more a function of alternative energy politics in Germany, where its 70% parent Solar Millennium AG filed for bankruptcy last December, what is relevant is that last April STA was the proud recipient of a $2.1 billion conditional loan from the Department of Energy, incidentally the second largest loan ever handed out by the DOE's Stephen Chu. That amount was supposed to fund the expansion of the company's 1000 MW Blythe Solar Power Project in Riverside, California. From the funding press release, "This project construction is expected to create over 1,000 direct jobs in Southern California, 7,500 indirect jobs in related industries throughout the United States, and more than 200 long-term operational jobs at the facility itself. It will play a key role in stimulating the American economy,? said Uwe T. Schmidt, Chairman and CEO of Solar Trust of America and Executive Chairman of project development subsidiary Solar Millennium, LLC." Instead, what Solar Trust will do is create lots of billable hours for bankruptcy attorneys (at $1,000/hour), and a good old equity extraction for the $22 million DIP lender, which just happens to be NextEra Energy Resources, LLC, another "alternative energy" company which last year received a $935 million loan courtesy of the very same (and now $2.1 billion poorer) Department of Energy, which is also a subsidiary of public NextEra Energy (NEE), in the process ultimately resulting in yet another transfer of taxpayer cash to NEE's private shareholders.

As Bloomberg notes: "The company joins Energy Conversion Devices Inc., a U.S. solar manufacturer that suspended production last year; LSP Energy LP, the owner of a natural-gas-fired power plant in Mississippi; Ener1 Inc., maker of lithium-ion batteries for plug-in electric cars; solar-panel maker Solyndra LLC; and energy storage company Beacon Power Corp. (BCONQ) in bankruptcy."

And so central planning fails again, and again, and again, and again. But it sure will be better with the centrally planned monetary (and in the absence of a working Congress - also fiscal) policy. Because this time it really will be different.

From Reuters:

Solar Trust of America and several affiliates filed for protection from creditors with the U.S. bankruptcy court in Delaware. It estimated to have as much as $10 million of assets, and between $50 million and $100 million of liabilities.



Blythe is about 220 miles (354 km) southeast of Los Angeles.



"We have been working with Solar Trust of America for a couple of years in getting this project going," David Lane, Blythe's city manager, said in an interview. "Although the project is not in the city limits, we are the only city within 100 miles. My sense is that with the large investment in what was to have been the world's largest solar power plant, someone somewhere will buy it and build it."

At least someone's reputation will be tarnished as a result of this latest epic failure of the Obama administration to misallocate capital :

Solar Millennium said it has been sued by former Chief Executive Utz Claassen over public statements by company representatives that he claims have damaged his reputation and left him unable to find a job. Solar Millennium said the lawsuit would not directly affect its insolvency proceedings.

[RyuLion]

Cliff notes?
j/k

[raymor]

Originally Posted by sperbonzo

Solyndra was just the appetizer. Earlier today, in what will come as a surprise only to members of the administration, the company which proudly held the rights to the world's largest solar power project, the hilariously named Solar Trust of America ("STA"), filed for bankruptcy.
... last April STA was the proud recipient of a $2.1 billion conditional loan from the Department of Energy, incidentally the second largest loan ever handed out by the DOE

So this time the administration wasn't told that the company was going bankrupt before they gave the donors, er I mean corporate officers, our money to walk away with? The administration most certainly wasn't surprised by Solyndra - they were told over and over that Solyndra couldn't survive, that giving them your money only meant that the big wigs at Solyndra could walk away with our cash when they shut it down.

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by RyuLion

Cliff notes?
j/k

The government squandered your tax dollars on another feel good energy crapshoot that no one expected would work.

.

[raymor]

Originally Posted by RyuLion

Cliff notes?

Dude donates to Obama. Obama gives him $2 billion of your money. Dude shuts down and goes back home to Germany.

Even though j/k it was still worth it.

[suesheboy]

The failure of US made solar products is a direct result illegal government subsidies in the tens of billions by China. It has nothing to do with labor costs as solar manufacturing is highly automated everywhere.

China will win world war III without firing a shot.

[Tom_PM]

It's better to keep giving it to companies that profit so much that they can't possibly fail.
Or something like that.

[u-Bob]

Obama's Enron.

But don't worry, once Obama's president it's all gonna change and be a lot better

[L-Pink]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

The failure of US made solar products is a direct result illegal government subsidies in the tens of billions by China. It has nothing to do with labor costs as solar manufacturing is highly automated everywhere.

.

[mafia_man]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

The failure of US made solar products is a direct result illegal government subsidies in the tens of billions by China. It has nothing to do with labor costs as solar manufacturing is highly automated everywhere.

China will win world war III without firing a shot.

Let's not let logic get in the way of our Obama bashing.

[GetSCORECash]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

The failure of US made solar products is a direct result illegal government subsidies in the tens of billions by China. It has nothing to do with labor costs as solar manufacturing is highly automated everywhere.

Solar Panels from China are even less expensive now then they were six months ago. What would of cost 5 to 6K$ is now worth less then 3K$.

[Tom_PM]

What is stunning is how ever since the 70's people have said solar can never work and so forth. Same arguments used then are used today, meanwhile countries all over the globe are saving big bucks using solar.
Just keep giving the billions to oil companies. They'll never fail.

[u-Bob]

Originally Posted by mafia_man

Let's not let logic get in the way of our Obama bashing.

So pointing out severe corruption is now illogical * bashing?

Let's summarize this:
Obama gets tons of money from Solyndra and its advisors at Goldman Sachs.
Solyndra then gets millions in loans from the government.
Solyndra gets more loans from the government when it's clear Solyndra can't pay back the original loans.
Solyndra announces that it's opening a plant in Mexico instead of California.
3 weeks later Solyndra gets even more loans from the government.
The government gives up its first lien and gives Solyndra another loan.
....

Don't see anything fishy going on?

[MaDalton]

the failure was hiring Utz Classen - he has a pretty shitty reputation in Germany

but solar is a failure anyways - it only makes sense for generating electricity in deserted places, not as mass supply

i am all for green energy, but not this one

[TheSquealer]

Blame Bush?

[Tom_PM]

Solar is better small scale for each home and to feed back to the cloud.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

What is stunning is how ever since the 70's people have said solar can never work and so forth. Same arguments used then are used today, meanwhile countries all over the globe are saving big bucks using solar.
Just keep giving the billions to oil companies. They'll never fail.

Which countries are those?

Spain is the world leader. Just the other day I read an article about the largest solar company in the world and they were still talking about needing 10-15 years to turn profit.

I don't think anybody is saving big bucks. It's mostly subsidized right now. Certainly has the potential to save/make big money, but I don't see that happening with government involvement. We need the greed of business to make it work.

[L-Pink]

Solar panels work great for heating swimming pools in sunny climates. What they will do on a roof in Chicago on a cloudy day in January I have no idea.

.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Sly

Which countries are those?

Spain is the world leader. Just the other day I read an article about the largest solar company in the world and they were still talking about needing 10-15 years to turn profit.

I don't think anybody is saving big bucks. It's mostly subsidized right now. Certainly has the potential to save/make big money, but I don't see that happening with government involvement. We need the greed of business to make it work.

what Sly said

[raymor]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

What is stunning is how ever since the 70's people have said solar can never work and so forth. Same arguments used then are used today, meanwhile countries all over the globe are saving big bucks using solar.
Just keep giving the billions to oil companies. They'll never fail.

Ever since the 70s people have been saying solar is all that and through our taxes being passed to solar companies we've each been forced to spend tens of thousands of dollars on solar, but forty years later it's still only useful in situations where you can't run a regular power line.

Solar IS useful - for running a weather station in death valley where there are no power lines. If it was capable of providing mass electricity, shouldn't we be seeing some of that after forty years and hundreds of billions of dollars in subsidies?

Solyndra and all of these other scams aren't about solar power. They knew before they got the money, and the government was told, that they would be shutting down their attempt to make solar systems. There is memo after memo stating clearly that the companies were closing their doors. Tne Obama administration just asked Solyndra to keep the layoffs secret until the day after the 2010 election. It was all about giving your money to Obama donors.

[Rochard]

Our government blows money in ways we could not begin to imagine. Rolling Stones last year did a story about two women who got millions of dollars in loans from the government - that didn't need to get paid back.

One of the stimulus packages sent nearly a billion dollars down to the Philippines to compensate the families of filipinos that fought for the US during WWII.

The US Government burns money... .

[Tom_PM]

Oh come on. We all know that solar and wind etc got VIRTUALLY zero dollars compared to massive billions to oil companies who do not need them. They do NOT NEED THEM, lmao. Yet they are entitled to them it seems. Thats right, rich oil companies have the most expensive welfare entitlement program in the US government and everyone knows it and bows down to kiss their ass.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Oh come on. We all know that solar and wind etc got VIRTUALLY zero dollars compared to massive billions to oil companies who do not need them. They do NOT NEED THEM, lmao. Yet they are entitled to them it seems. Thats right, rich oil companies have the most expensive welfare entitlement program in the US government and everyone knows it and bows down to kiss their ass.

Your argument is that we should waste a few billion dollars on solar (which clearly doesn't work) because we are giving oil companies billions/trillions of dollars as well?

[Tom_PM]

Of course it takes many years to break even and profit. Whats the timeline to break even and profit from burning fossil fuels again?

[Sly]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Of course it takes many years to break even and profit. Whats the timeline to break even and profit from burning fossil fuels again?

You said many countries were saving big bucks. I'm saying, which ones?

[Tom_PM]

Originally Posted by Sly

Your argument is that we should waste a few billion dollars on solar (which clearly doesn't work) because we are giving oil companies billions/trillions of dollars as well?

No, my argument with the thread is that it's right wing political agenda time once again on GFY when there are much larger more wasteful and delicious fish to fry.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

No, my argument with the thread is that it's right wing political agenda time once again on GFY when there are much larger more wasteful and delicious fish to fry.

Don't punish Paul because Peter is a bigger bully.

[keysync]

My parents at their home in Florida bought a solar setup to heat their pool.
It's saving them quite a bit on their monthly electric bill not running the pool pump.
But I think they paid like 7k for it so it's going to take a while to make that up.

[Tom_PM]

Any country that is offsetting fossil fuel with solar, wind or geothermal is profitting from it in some way. Even Germany where it's considered a "fail" based on expenses, it's providing a small percent of power. Like 1 percent or less.
That's when measured today as if it's never going to change of course. It's versus todays rates on everything else, and based on a fewer number of years of savings compared to when it's compared again in 10 yrs, 20, 50 and so forth. It takes a longer look to see the value.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

the failure was hiring Utz Classen - he has a pretty shitty reputation in Germany

but solar is a failure anyways - it only makes sense for generating electricity in deserted places, not as mass supply

i am all for green energy, but not this one

You are obviously not in the green tech industry.

Explain to me how much solar energy is being made at home in Germany - the sunbelt of the EU?

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Any country that is offsetting fossil fuel with solar, wind or geothermal is profitting from it in some way. Even Germany where it's considered a "fail" based on expenses, it's providing a small percent of power. Like 1 percent or less.

You are so uninformed it is not funny.

[Tom_PM]

Sly, I'm not saying dont disparage solar power ever and amen. I'm saying if you want to talk about wasting billions of dollars, how about addressing the biggest wastes of money rather than the just-so-happens to be a politically motivated one. It's clear.

[MaDalton]

btw - giving oil companies 4 billion in tax cuts and not having the balls to take them away while they make record profits is equally retarded

does anyone see a connection between the record profits and the "high" gas prices?

(considering that "high" means still one of the lowest gas prices of all developed countries)

[Tom_PM]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

You are so uninformed it is not funny.

You can look it up. Germany's solar is providing something less than 1% of it's electricity today.

[suesheboy]

I think some of your keyboard warriors need to get off your asses and speak to real experts and engineers.

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by suesheboy

You are obviously not in the green tech industry.

Explain to me how much solar energy is being made at home in Germany - the sunbelt of the EU?

i did some research like 10 years ago when i was writing at the university about green energy. at least at that time, the energy you needed to produce a solar cell was higher than the total output over its lifespan.

maybe that got better, but there are still a lot of better opportunities

[Tom_PM]

Right. What happened to going after LOW hanging fruit? There's no question in anyone of any politcal bent that wasting money on a failed company was a bad move. But how about some equal vigor to address massive giveaways to the most profitable companies of all time, literally? It seems there's a deafness or fear factor there.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

You can look it up. Germany's solar is providing something less than 1% of it's electricity today.

Again you are misinformed.

Is electricity the only form of energy use?

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Solar is better small scale for each home and to feed back to the cloud.

I am already doing that in one house and designing as we speak system number 2.

Most EFFECTIVE solar use I have found is venting my attics with solar fans with battery backups and then switching to AC power on days of repeated low solar capture.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by MaDalton

i did some research like 10 years ago when i was writing at the university about green energy. at least at that time, the energy you needed to produce a solar cell was higher than the total output over its lifespan.

maybe that got better, but there are still a lot of better opportunities

anything you researched 2 years ago is basically worthless in regard to ROI.

[Tom_PM]

I'm all for solar power on any scale, but especially for home owners.

Because there will never come a day when your local electric company writes you a note to say you and your ancestors have paid them enough, so please stop sending monthly checks. But if you invest in a few panels today, you can stop paying them forever if you do it right in just a few years.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

I'm all for solar power on any scale, but especially for home owners.

Works just as well for businesses too.

The key is all the carbon and other shit we spew into the atmosphere has a tremendous cost as well. Just ask your homeowners insurance company.

Now add that to your ROI calculation!

[suesheboy]

...and since my AC in Florida now runs more than 30% less, how much longer do you think it and my refrigerator will last? What about my roof? You get the idea.

[suesheboy]

Originally Posted by PR_Tom

Any country that is offsetting fossil fuel with solar, wind or geothermal is profitting from it in some way. Even Germany where it's considered a "fail" based on expenses, it's providing a small percent of power. Like 1 percent or less.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...783314,00.html

During the first half of 2011, the share of renewable energy sources used by Germans in their total energy mix grew to one-fifth -- a hefty boost over 2010. It's a small step toward Germany's ambition to phase out nuclear power.

It is a report that is bound to please Chancellor Angela Merkel. Just months after she expended significant political capital to guide Germany's future energy production away from nuclear and toward renewable sources, a report by a leading energy industry group indicates that production of renewables in the country is rising rapidly.

According to the report, released on Monday by the German Association of Energy and Water Industries (BDEW), renewables accounted for fully 20.8 percent of production during the first six months of 2011. "Renewable energies have crossed the 20 percent mark in Germany for the first time," the association said in a statement.

In 2010, green energy consumption totalled 18.3 percent of total demand.

The increase, the BDEW says, is unconnected to Merkel's decision to immediately close seven nuclear power plants in the wake of the March disaster at the Fukushima complex in Japan. But it does give a boost to Germany's long-term effort to phase out nuclear power completely by 2022. Chancellor Merkel has said the goal by then is to draw 35 percent of production from renewables.

Solar Also Rises

Total usage in Germany remained stable from 2010 at 275.5 billion kilowatt-hours, but energy from sources like wind, biomass, hydroelectric plants, solar panels and waste incineration rose to 57.3 billion KWh in the first six months of this year.

Wind power, the most important source, rose to 20.7 billion KWh, or 7.5 of total usage. Biomass (5.6 percent), photovoltaic solar (3.5 percent), and hydroelectric power (3.3 percent) were next in line. Waste incineration and other sources covered 0.8 percent of total demand.

The real change came in the photovoltaic sector, where output almost doubled -- up more than 76 percent since 2010. "Because of the volume of new photovoltaic installations and the amount of sun during the spring, solar energy knocked hydroelectric from third place for the first time," the BDEW said in a statement.

The BDEW saw two reasons for the boost in new installations: Equipment prices have plummeted by 50 percent since 2006, reflecting more competition, and the federal government decided against a planned cut in subsidies for private solar-power generation.

[MaDalton]

the subsidies in Germany will be cut now, they just change the law

the problem is that energy companies are forced by law to pay people who feed solar power into the net a higher price per kwh than people pay for their energy they buy.

means: i can feed solar power into the net and get paid 40 cents per kwh and at the same time buy "conventional" energy from the same company and pay 25 cents per kwh.

the effect: energy gets more expensive for everyone

stop subsidising all forms of energy and let the market sort out what works

and that includes subsidies to oil and nuclear companies

[devilspost]

copied from a lib site:

small is beautiful thinking hasn't sunk into solar yet

The solar cos. want to build this installation 200+ mi. from LA in the middle of nowhere - for what? To provide power to LA? Just put up the panels on every home in LA and call it a mega installation. Get it done. We need 300 million solar roofs now, not some mega project 200 miles from where it's needed.

They want centralized control with high barrier to entry.

What you propose makes sense - unless you are trying to monetize a scarce resource.

One of the biggest reasons why distributed solar (or distributed anything) isn't taking off is because if everyone generated their own power there would be no central control over energy profits like there are with oil.

They don't want distributed power. They want a centralized power generation facility with a huge capital outlay to prevent competition.

[Tom_PM]

I agree that the money they pay to buy it back for should be the same it's costing, or similarly based (credits) so it stays viable. But I guess the article I saw saying under 1% was quite old or maybe was bought and paid for "opinion". Even at 1% I'd consider it a win. You can't run before you crawl, and savings aren't always apparent from day 1.

[2MuchMark]

Lol! Everyone needs to tone it down a notch.

I don't know the reasons why the solar panel company failed, but blaming Obama for it is just stupid.

Why don't people complain about the billions of tax dollars given to oil companies instead? They are already the most profitable companies in the world, and thanks to DUBYA, they get billions more in subsidies. Last week Obama tried to have this stopped, but of course the republicans said no.

[raymor]

It's funny to me that the libs think that taking their paychecks from them and giving it to Obama donors is the same thing as NOT taking money from anyone, including oil companies. Tax deduction for expenses != government check.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by **********

Lol! Everyone needs to tone it down a notch.

I don't know the reasons why the solar panel company failed, but blaming Obama for it is just stupid.

Why don't people complain about the billions of tax dollars given to oil companies instead? They are already the most profitable companies in the world, and thanks to DUBYA, they get billions more in subsidies. Last week Obama tried to have this stopped, but of course the republicans said no.

Blaming Obama, the current president is stupid, but blaming Dubya, a past president, makes sense.