12clicks

time after time they choose inaction when a madman starts to build up militarily and threaten his nieghbors. Only after things have gone to far do they throw up their hands and beg the US to save them.
How embarrassing it must be for the minority of euros who understand things.

spineless or gutless? should have made a poll.

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rooster

sociallism. It has never worked, yet people keep trying it.

KingK7

Euro-trash 4 Lyfe!

dropped9

Both!

Germany and France are pussys, always will be... But there are also greedy bastards. They both have money ties to Iraq. Who is the real greedy bastards in the situation?

Yeah oil is a bonus when it comes to Iraq, but for christs sakes, the man and country pose one hell of a danger if they pass on some ricen or anthrax to bin laden and his cronies....

12clicks

dude, I'm all about euro trash just not euro pansies.

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woodman

You guys think that proof is a picture of a warehouse showin gvials of smallpox all lined up or some soldier standing beside a missle with a big smile on his face. Intelligence is based on not any single piece of evidence, but looking at the whole picture. You guys are looking for the smoking gun, but by the time you find it the bullets will already be fired.

Big Monkie

So when people are reluctant to slaughter tens of thousands of people to get one man, all based on flimsy "evidence" and proof, that makes them pansies? Is general norman schwarzkoff a pansy for thinking there isnt proof enough for an invasion? How about the huge numbers of american veterans who are standing up and saying the same thing, are they pansies too?
But what about you 12clicks, are you a chicken hawk like bush and most of his backers or do you just sound like one?



I'm tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired and shot, nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded, who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."-- General William T. Sherman Michigan Military Academy June 19, 1879

scooby doo as scooby does

Just more intelligent I guess.

Flame on!

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Big Monkie

I guess 12clicks didnt want to answer my question.

Rich

Good point, let's just sit back and wait until fucking Korea sells fucking Sadaam the fucking nukes, and one lands on your fucking house. No one likes war, but sometimes it's neccissary.

I can't believe France is against the war, 12clicks you're right on both points, they're both spineless and gutless. Fuck if anyone was threatning them, they'd sure as hell expect the US and UK to bail them out again. Fucking frog pussies.

Mark

Well technically england is part of europe and its the British armed forces that have to keep bailing out you yanks whenever you fuck things up!

I mean why is it the SAS are always called in to do the serious stuff?? Its true.. I saw it in a movie with Harrison Ford..

<IMX>

Germany: spineless.
Scared of starting any war, for obvious reasons.


France: spineless and gutless.
Come-on, not even a question here.

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Big Monkie

Ok lets review;
1. Korea kicked out inspectors, saddam has let them in.
2. Korea has openly said they possess and are developing weapons of mass destruction (including nukes), saddam denies iraq has them and inspectors/cia/nsa/sattelites etc cant seem to find any definitive evidence of any.
3.Korea has openly stated they wouldnt rule out pre-emptive strikes if they are threatened, saddam hasnt attacked anyone in a dozen years and knows if he does it would be his end.
4.So we attack/occupy iraq!
All you have to do is look at all the chicken hawks pushing this "war" to see that there are indeed some folks who like it. Especially slaughters like this one where the other side has no chance. Can you say military industrial complex boys and girls? Not to mention the press stroking it over the prospect of covering the story. The overwhelming majority of the world is against this but you see little of that in the usa press. Dont give me that crap about how no one likes war.


"I'm tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired and shot, nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded, who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell."-- General William T. Sherman Michigan Military Academy June 19, 1879

D-man

WTF ever - Iraq first - Korea is next -

Big Monkie? here is my monkey http://www.cockmonkey.tk/

Gutterboy

From your other posts I think you are a pretty intelligent person, but these wild fantasy situations you dream up with to justify war crack me up. Korea selling Saddam nuclear weapons? LOL

Thats scenario is about on the same level of probability as Saddam using genetically engineered winged pigs to deliver his weapons.

Get a grip on reality man!

Big Monkie

Hey nice link d-man! Thanks!
But no, bush and co dont have the guts to attack someone who has the capability to fight back.

woodman

wasn't the boatload of missles that Isreal confiscated a few months back that were headed to the PLO shipped from NK?

SNOW

SHUT THE FUCK UP HOLLYWOOD BOY...........

Gutterboy

Dunno, might be worth looking up.

Big Monkie

The interesting thing here is that our usa govt has ALREADY given weapons of mass destruction to saddam, as well as iran and osama. Including training on how to use em. Courtesy of reagan/bush and many of the same people in the current admin. But bush and co dont want to talk about that. They want to talk about what somebody else MIGHT do. Maybe. And how its all clintons fault.

woodman

Look at it like the Mob. America is the Don. We give power and supplies to all the little mob bosses around the world to do things that benefit us. When the local bosses get out of hand or go on a power trip, then we take them out.

What da fuck is wrong wit dat?

Gutterboy

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I don't know that we gave chem or bio stuff to Saddam or the Mujahadeen before they became they Taliban. From my understanding of the Afghan conflict, what really gave the Muja's the advantage was the Stinger missiles we started shipping over there. Bye bye Hind helicopters.

WMD's have proven very useful in the right hands. Without them, the Cold War would have been WWIII.

JOH

The North Koreans have been distributing weapons throughout the Middle East; they were intended to create instability in the region, plan that may have backfired on themselves.


(The missiles were going to Yemen from North Korea and believe a Spanish ship held them until the US gave passage.)

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LiveDose

Some people are just not going to believe the danger of chemical weapons exists until it's too late and they see their own mother drop dead from them. And even then they will convince themselves that she had a heart attack and really saddam is a nice guy.

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LiveDose

oops

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SquarePants

Very good comparison

LiveDose

Thanks for a great laugh moron.

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Honeyslut

Yep. I think it was heading for Yemen

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Big Monkie

Uh, stinger missles are not weapons of mass destruction? And we did indeed give saddam gas in the form of mustard gas to use against iran, who at the time was using cyanide gas against iraq. Its not exactly known what kind of weapons were given to iran terrorists in the iran/contra affair, but its probably fair to say they were deadly. And yes, the usa govt has always thought wmd's were ok as long as they were in the usa best interest. But you see nothing wrong with that?

Kat - Fast

12clicks - shut up you knob - you couldn't come back to me last night and you should just sit in front of your 'board and aggravate more newbies.

You're still not worth my old desert boots - stick to talking about online porn, a subject you know about.

Gutterboy

No. If nukes are going to be built, its better to build enough of them to guarantee that both sides get completely annihilated if either ever uses one.

Its obviously not the best way to maintain peace, but we don't live in a perfect world.

PerfectionGirls

I have to agree with you! I will support the actions my counrty takes and stand behind our President, but I too would like to see the "smoking gun". I have yet to be convinced.

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theking

quote:
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Originally posted by theking


Reasons for war.

#1. Iraq was defeated on the field of battle and signed certain terms. Iraq has been in violation of those terms since they signed the terms in '91. The USA has demanded that those terms be complied with and that Iraq remain a defeated country.

#2. Iraq attempted to assasinate a former American President.

#3. Iraq has fired upon, almost daily, for almost 11 years, USA military forces.

#4. Iraq is believed to have, or are acquiring, or are attempting to acquire WMD's. The USA will not allow that.

#5. Iraq has, on multiple occassions called for Americans, to be killed where ever they are found. Thus they are a sworn enemy of the USA.

#6. Iraq is a strategic piece of real estate for future military operations against our enemies in the region, which number in the 100's of millions.

#7. Iraq is a strategic piece of real estate for its oil fields and for the surrounding oil fields, for as the worlds oil supplies dwindle the USA will be in a position to control the dwindling oil supplies for its use and the use of its European allies.

#8. A take over of Iraq sends a very powerful signal to the other countries in that area of the world that if they don't get their act together they will be next.

Any one of the reasons above is a reason for war.
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quote:
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Originally posted by theking


Proof of WMD's

During the first round of inspections after after the first gulf war, Iraq admitted that they had x number of tons/liters etc. of different types of chemical and different types of biological materials on hand as well as x number of chemical rockets/artillary rounds. The first round of inspections over saw the destruction of much of this material and weapons, but they were not allowed to finish the job. Iraq has now said that they took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining weapons and materials since 1998. They do not have the documentation to prove this and said that they destroyed the documentation when they destroyed the materials and weapons. Even if it were true that they destroyed the documentation of the destruction of the materials and weapons there would still be the physical evidence of the destruction of the these materials and weapons, which they have failed to present evidence of. There would also be those scientists and engineers etc. that would have been involved in the destruction of these materials and Iraq has failed to present these people that would have been involved in the destruction of the materials and weapons. Bottom line is they had chemical and biological materials and weapons, admitted that they had them, the first round of inpsections oversaw the destruction of much of the materials and weapons, but they were kicked out before the remaining materials and weapons were destroyed, and Iraq has yet to present one iota of proof that they in fact took it upon themselves to destroy the remaining chemical and biological materials and weapons, thus without proof that they did in fact destroy them (which is their burden as imposed in the last UN resolution) we the US and anyone with an ounce of brains must assume that they still have them, and may have even produced more of them since 1998.
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quote:
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Originally posted by theking


Some reasons why we may not be presenting clear cut proof to the UN, our "allies" and the world public.

I of course do not know what crystal clear proof may or may not exist such as photographs, but I do know that if we have black and white proof and presented that proof (even in secret to "allies") that information would have a good chance of being leaked and what are now targets would be dispersed and hidden so the opportunity to take them out will have been lost and as a result they could be used against our forces.

It has been reported that our CIA and military have outlined more than 700 targets to be hit, many of which are suspected, if not factually known to store chemical, biological materials or weapons. If we began to present this target list to the UN or to the world public or even to some of our "allies" those targets would not exist when it came time to attack them as they would have been cleaned of whatever they may now contain.

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quote:
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Originally posted by theking


We are not going it alone.

The President does not act in a vacuum and cannot act without the backing of the American people, which he has, the backing of congress, which he has (they gave him the thumbs up on Iraq several months ago), the backing of his cabinet, which he has, the backing of the justice department and the courts (the President cannot violate the constitution or the law), which he has, and at this point in time he has the backing of the UN Security Counsel (15-0). Nine countries at this point in time are committing troops, twenty-two other countries are offering other types of support. There will be more come on board before all is said and done. If I remember correctly there were only 38 countries that either committed troops and/or other types of support in the first gulf war. At this point in time we have the committment of 31 countries and counting.
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Joe Sixpack

Europe has museums and art gallerys.

USA has shopping malls and fast food outlets.

theking

Virtually every county in every state has one or more museums and art gallerys.

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Joe Sixpack

Europe has thousands of museums and art galleries. It is extraordinarily culturally rich. I have spent eight months in the last five years backpacking through Europe and going to museums and art galleries from London to Budapest. If you don't know what I'm talking about its because you haven't been.

JOH

Collin Powell, didn't he give substantiated proof, smoking gun is what many want as Black & White", can intelligence be so precise not to jeopardize our covert actions.

It amazes me to see so much sympathy of Saddams lies and ignorance by some.

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theking

The USA has thousands of museums and art galleries. It is extraordinarily culturally rich. I just informed you that virtually every county within the USA has one or more museums and art gallerys. In addition many cities have museums and art galleries within the city. As an example I live in a small population county and in the county we have at least two museums that I am aware of and several art gallerys. You may prefer the museums and art galleries of Europe but you implied that the USA does not have museums and art galleries. We have our own culture and this is reflected in our museums and in our art.

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PornoDoggy

.
You should get your news from someplace other than "Our Weekly Reader." The missles were not headed to the PLO - they were headed to one of the states in the region. The U.S. ended up with egg on its face over that one.

PornoDoggy

Iran, to my knowledge, has never been accused of using gas against the Iraqis by any responsible source. And no, Stinger missles are hardly weapons of mass destruction.

There is a strong possibility that much of the beginings of the Iranian chemical and biological weapons programs took place with the cooperation (or averted eyes) of the U.S. government, however, under Reagan and GHB.

Joe Sixpack

You obviously have no understanding of art.

You have in your art galleries what the Europeans have chosen to sell you or graciously allowed you to borrow. There is more significant art in the Louvre in Paris then there is in your whole country. That is not my opinion, it is a fact.

And in terms of American art - no, Norman Rockwell is not Rembrandt or Michaelangelo. Not by a long shot.

PornoDoggy

Joe ... calling you a moron would give morons a bad name. The U.S. has produced its own artists, and there are lots of folks with more than enough money to buy plenty of culture. You are every bit as ignorant as the folks you oppose.

Just out of curiousity ... was your father an annymous American serviceman that abandoned your mother? It would explain the bitterness ...

Gutterboy

.. if you like monster truck museums

.. if you're a white trash anthropologist

.. almost all of which are borrowed from Europe

Whats lacking is history. The USA is only 200 years old, of course its not going to have the culture of some country thats been around in one form or another for 2000 years. Its as silly to criticize the US for not having the cultural history of France as it is to pretend that ithe culture is there when its not.

To put it another way, you can't have a Micheangelo without his environment.. a place where diverse elements of Christianity, Greek culture, and the Roman Empire were melded by the Catholic Church over the millenia to produce its enormous body of artwork and liturgical music.

What pisses some Euro's off is the perception that Americans as a whole actually seem to revel in their general lack of cultural sophistication. And its true to a certain degree. Where else in the world can you insult someone by calling them an academic, an "elite", a highbrow, a pointy head, or any of the other cultural or intellectual monikers frequently used as perjoratives by angry Americans?

theking

BS. We have very little European art in our art galleries and that is limited to the major galleries with in major cities. Most art and artifacts on display through out the nation are created by American artists and are American artifacts. If you prefer the European culture, aritfacts and art, so be it.

By the way..."art is in the eye of the beholder" and I don't need some pretentious critic telling me what and what is not art.

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cinsitycash

The european envy is great. I love it when Europeans talk down this country because it's not liek their country. I don't know about you, but it takes all of Europe to compete with our dollar. Why is France using a damn Euro? Please tell me that. I never understood that " France"

Like they said before me, 200 years compared to the entire British Empire. LOL. We changed this world so fast, in such little time it's pathetic. The Brits have nothing to szay to America about going into other countries. The British Empire was brutal. They did some fucked up shit, and into the 80s too.

" Germany"
" France"
" UK"

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Big Monkie

Wow, the ignorance of so many people about so much of this is frightening.
Is the United States Defense Intelligence Agency a responsible source? Go here http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html
for a new york times story of how it MAY have been iran who gassed the kurds instead of saddam.
And here;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Dec29.html
for more info on how reagan/bush KNOWINGLY supported saddam in his use of chemical weapons.
Your statement that stinger missles are not weapons of mass destruction doesnt even deserve a reply.

Rip

I always liked the independant way France thinks, like when they sold exocet missiles to argentina for their mirage fighters

It was so cute the way that the french technicians were right there in argentina, as the missiles were installed on the fighters, making certain that all systems were -go- minutes before the missiles were fired at the Sheffield

what a great people and what fantastic after sales service;

"....Paris contracted to sell a total of 133 Mirage F-1 fighters to Iraq..."

"...between 1981 and 1985, the value of French arms transfers to Iraq was US$5.1 billion..."

"...Iraq also bought more than 400 Exocet AM39 air-to-surface missiles and at least 200 AS30 laserguided missiles between 1983 and 1986. Second, unlike most other suppliers, France adopted an independent and unambiguous arms sales policy towards Iraq..."


"....Police in the western German cities of Mannheim and Cologne have opened inquiries into a German-Russian businessman suspected of masterminding the illegal supply of weapons to Iraq, ..."

"...Iraq's report says the equipment was either sold or made by more than 30 German companies...."

"....SMOKING GUN: German exports may have helped build Iraqi weapons...."

"....nuclear expert and a weapons inspector in 1996.
According to Iraq's accounting, the real help came from German experts and companies, in particular H&H Metallform, which sold the Iraqis old designs for centrifuges...."

OneHungLo

Nope the french are just stalling the war till the last document of them supplying iraq with chemicals to create checmical weapons are shredded... then they will be ready to go along with us

MetaformX

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