$150 For Script Installation with Webair??? Since When? - GoFuckYourself.com

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 03:58 PM

I've been with Webair for over 3 years and have never once been charged for a basic 3rd party script installation.

Tonight I requested one be installed and 30+ minutes later I'm told there will be a $99 charge for the installation, but am told it's usually $150.

The script's pretty basic and I can't imagine it would take them much more than 5 minutes. Before tonight I thought my server was fully managed and included installation of 3rd party scripts, since I've had them installed numerous times without any talk of a charge.

Is anyone else unaware of such a charge?

Emil · 12-30-2011, 04:04 PM

Why dont you install it yourself?

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emil

Why dont you install it yourself?

Can anyone answer a question of this board anymore?

DamianJ · 12-30-2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emil

Why dont you install it yourself?

Because he is paying for a managed server?

garce · 12-30-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlammedCash

Can anyone answer a question of this board anymore?

Why? There's no fun in that.

I prefer to install my own scripts, hopelessly fuck up my server, and have the guys at AmeriNoc bail me out.

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emil

Why dont you install it yourself?

And for whatever reason it matters to you -- It's always been their job before this charge talk tonight. So why wouldn't I get them to install it and save myself the time?

Jarmusch · 12-30-2011, 04:11 PM

Give some sigwhore here 10 bucks to install it.

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garce

I prefer to install my own scripts, hopelessly fuck up my server, and have the guys at AmeriNoc bail me out.

lol, I hear you there. I just save everyone the headache nowadays.

epitome · 12-30-2011, 04:15 PM

It's a managed dedicated?

Yeah, they should be installing that for free.

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epitome

It's a managed dedicated?

Yeah, they should be installing that for free.

yup it is.

Mutt · 12-30-2011, 04:18 PM

i must be an idiot, i've never asked a hosting company to install a script for me.

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

i must be an idiot, i've never asked a hosting company to install a script for me.

another useless member of this wonderful community enters the conversation, with more uselessness.

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mutt

i must be an idiot, i've never asked a hosting company to install a script for me.

some of us are actually busy ;)

MaDalton · 12-30-2011, 04:22 PM

never had that problem with techiemedia

AdultKing · 12-30-2011, 04:26 PM

If it's a managed server and you're paying a premium already for it to be managed then I don't understand why they are charging you. Is there any mention on your plan documentation or contract of such charges ?

Did you raise your concerns about the charge with them then and there, if so what was the response ?

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultKing

Did you raise your concerns about the charge with them then and there, if so what was the response ?

Of course I raised my concerns with them and was told that's how it's always been and I may have had someone give me a freebie here and there, but it's not supposed to be that way. However I've been getting free installations for 3 years and have never heard the mention of a charge.

BareBacked · 12-30-2011, 04:44 PM

Sign of the times. I have seen this happening with a ton of "service providers"

If they keep nickel and diming clients they are not going to have any left

Jarmusch · 12-30-2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlammedCash

some of us are actually busy ;)

In the time it took you to make this thread and reply to it, the script would be installed.

CYF · 12-30-2011, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch

In the time it took you to make this thread and reply to it, the script would be installed.

I imagine it's the POINT that a managed server should be managed, not the fact that he could do it in five minutes himself.

SlammedMedia · 12-30-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarmusch

In the time it took you to make this thread and reply to it, the script would be installed.

thanks for another useless post. up that post count pal.

Jarmusch · 12-30-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlammedCash

thanks for another useless post. up that post count pal.

See, you were not too busy to reply to me.

Babaganoosh · 12-30-2011, 05:48 PM

Why do lazy, incompetent people insist on trying to become webmasters? If only hosts wouldn't coddle them. Installing a script should never be a host's responsibility. How long until some of you inept motherfuckers want them to design and manage your site too? Dumbasses.

raymor · 12-30-2011, 06:01 PM

I always looked at a managed server as meaning they'll manage the SERVER, not manage the sites or install and configure uninjured amounts of third party scripts.

Sure if you're a long term customer they might do one as a favor every now and again, but I wouldn't expect them to be doing it all the time without charging for it. This if only because some scripts can take an hour or more to set up, then the webmaster changes their mind and wants a different one, etc. I wouldn't WANT to pay enough of a premium to cover unlimited work like that. The 90% of customers who don't need the extra hand holding would be paying for what they don't need.

Dvae · 12-30-2011, 06:16 PM

Another satisfied Webair customer

iSpyCams · 12-30-2011, 07:20 PM

What is the script? is it 99dollarinstalltube ?

Jarmusch · 12-30-2011, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

Why do lazy, incompetent people insist on trying to become webmasters? If only hosts wouldn't coddle them. Installing a script should never be a host's responsibility. How long until some of you inept motherfuckers want them to design and manage your site too? Dumbasses.

anexsia · 12-30-2011, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlammedCash

The script's pretty basic and I can't imagine it would take them much more than 5 minutes.

If it will only take 5 minutes why not just install it yourself? While I agree Webair is bullshit for trying to charge you for installation if you have a fully managed server, just learn to do these things yourself.

zurich · 12-30-2011, 08:08 PM

SlammedCash = retarded

B.Barnato · 12-30-2011, 08:12 PM

Things like this are the reason I host exclusively with geocities and blogspot.

nickutis · 12-30-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

Why do lazy, incompetent people insist on trying to become webmasters? If only hosts wouldn't coddle them. Installing a script should never be a host's responsibility. How long until some of you inept motherfuckers want them to design and manage your site too? Dumbasses.

If you have ideas how to get traffic, how to convert that traffic and earn money, that doesn't mean you have to be geek in server management and be able to install all damn scripts.
Sure I could install some custom script in hour or so, but why bother if somebody can do that in 5 mins? Especially if I pay them for such service?

Babaganoosh · 12-30-2011, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickutis

If you have ideas how to get traffic, how to convert that traffic and earn money, that doesn't mean you have to be geek in server management and be able to install all damn scripts.
Sure I could install some custom script in hour or so, but why bother if somebody can do that in 5 mins? Especially if I pay them for such service?

Installing scripts is just part of being a webmaster. It's not rocket science and nobody is saying you need to be able to manage a server. If you need adjustments made to apache, mysql or whatever, that's a managed host's job. Installing a script is in the same category as designing a logo or updating a site. You surely wouldn't ask the host to do that for you (or would you).

fris · 12-30-2011, 09:29 PM

bit pricey for a simple script to be installed.

blazin · 12-31-2011, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fris

bit pricey for a simple script to be installed.

Really depends on the scripts requirements. Who knows what else will need to be setup for the script to work...

k0nr4d · 12-31-2011, 01:58 AM

I never really considered scritp installation as part of managed webhosting tbh. I always viewed it more as the webmasters responsibility, and managed hosting was more setting up emails domains etc

BIGTYMER · 12-31-2011, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Babaganoosh

Why do lazy, incompetent people insist on trying to become webmasters? If only hosts wouldn't coddle them. Installing a script should never be a host's responsibility. How long until some of you inept motherfuckers want them to design and manage your site too? Dumbasses.

BIGTYMER · 12-31-2011, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.Barnato

Things like this are the reason I host exclusively with geocities and blogspot.

Homestead and LunarPages for the win!

PornDiscounts-R · 12-31-2011, 02:31 AM

Man, i`m glad i host with Rackco.
Never had a problem with getting help on installs, tweaks, solving problems that is software releted.
Allways great help on chat and ticket support

Happy new year to you guys

seeandsee · 12-31-2011, 09:25 AM

that is nice chunk of $ billed, question is it worthed

TubeSubmitters · 12-31-2011, 09:27 AM

Webair for the win!

barcodes · 12-31-2011, 09:39 AM

If I was going to get railo or coldfusion set up on the system I would want them to do it. If its like wordpress or magento or something, I don't mind doing it. If they don't have this already, maybe they could implement a simple scripts type of setup like bluehost has. Hostgator just started to use it in their cpanel, I forgot what they called theirs.

If it is something more obscure, and it wants me to fuck with settings or tweaking server files, I would probably want them to do it. As a managed service, I would expect it to be part of the plan.

Usually in my experience with like a tube script or something, I will load the folders or install whatever I can and ask them to turn on or off any special settings mentioned in the how-to that I don't feel safe or really know how to mess with.

As someone who works with clients that can never make up their minds, if they spend mass amounts of time asking for different things to be installed, there should be some a point where you can charge them extra.

I don't know lol

barcodes · 12-31-2011, 09:47 AM

I remember when I first started plaing with cfforms, you have to point a folder from the coldfusion admin to your site folder for it to work right.

I asked him to show me as I was curious.

He went on to show me how to get in using remote access, creating folders in the site folder and setting the properties up, mime types and shit. He then went on showing me how to point the cflib folder to the newly created domain.

I didn't retain any of that and the next time I needed it pointed, in fear of fucking something up on a 650/month dedicated unmanaged box...

I just made him do it

He still does it for me whenever it comes up

Best of luck to everyone involved

WebairGerard · 12-31-2011, 10:46 AM

I am honestly surprised to see this post. Especially since after checking with the sales person who assisted you told me that he came to an agreement and to NOT CHARGE YOU for the installation once it was determined that the install should be fairly straight forward.

As many have mentioned already a Fully Managed server does not mean that we manage client websites and 3rd party scripts/products as that is the responsibility of the webmaster. If and when assistance is needed in that regard we of course can offer solutions to help and quote for the work/time to do so.

Now if this was for something like adjustments to Apache, MySQL, etc, yes of course that is something that you would expect from a managed hosting service. Under our Fully Managed platform we manage the SERVER, and the infrastructure of your hosting environment (datacenter, redundant power, cooling, network connectivity, server hardware, 24x7 skilled technicians, physical security).

In addition to:

System Level Health Monitoring & Notifications

Core Operating System Updates & patches

Security Enhancements

Proactive Response & Restoration of Monitoring Events

Full Web Server Support including Apache

Plus something to keep in mind all 3rd party scripts and installs are different (not counting standard programs like WordPress,etc.) and should be looked at as case by case. Something that you *think* may be just a few minutes to install can cause other issues on the server or site and now this few minute install can easily turn into a much larger project.

All that said, I will wish everyone a Happy New Year! Peace, Love, and Happiness to all!

Jel · 12-31-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garce

Why? There's no fun in that.

I prefer to install my own scripts, hopelessly fuck up my server, and have the guys at AmeriNoc bail me out.

lol, same, except it's cyberwurx who are rolling their eyes every time they see a ticket from me

gleem · 12-31-2011, 02:13 PM

Take the money you save by not paying for any of your scraped content and hire a programmer to install a script

Managed hosting doesn't mean custom script installs unless it's a server level script, that's the way it's always been, welcome to the internet.

brassmonkey · 12-31-2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gleem

Take the money you save by not paying for any of your scraped content and hire a programmer to install a script

Managed hosting doesn't mean custom script installs unless it's a server level script, that's the way it's always been, welcome to the internet.

its a free open source script

AmeliaG · 12-31-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by garce

Why? There's no fun in that.

I prefer to install my own scripts, hopelessly fuck up my server, and have the guys at AmeriNoc bail me out.

Ha, ha, count me in for the same plan, except it is Webair bailing me out.

And, to the OP, seriously what kind of dick expects his host to do his basic script installs, has his host generously throw him a bunch of freebies, and then goes and bashes his host in public? Oh yeah, the kind of dick who steals all his content and still can't get an Alexa better than a million in the exgf niche.

epitome · 12-31-2011, 02:37 PM

Well I guess Naked Hosting goes above and beyond. They've installed anything I've asked for without charge and have even updated my WP installs so I didn't have to.

I'm spoiled.

Deej · 12-31-2011, 02:51 PM

Que up Barefootsies ... im sure hes dying to tell you how thats always standard with hosting companies unless theyre well known and established and can afford to give away "hard work" like that.

meaning hes really just trying to sell you his sub par hosting and charge for something like that that takes literally a couple minutes.

Deej · 12-31-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epitome

Well I guess Naked Hosting goes above and beyond. They've installed anything I've asked for without charge and have even updated my WP installs so I didn't have to.

I'm spoiled.

Agreed! GReat hosting!

Mojo has always been good to me as well! I dont think Ive ever waited for a ticket longer than 5 minutes from either company. Usually thats a "were finished, have a nice day" ticket back.

candyflip · 12-31-2011, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deej

Que up Barefootsies ... im sure hes dying to tell you how thats always standard with hosting companies unless theyre well known and established and can afford to give away "hard work" like that.

meaning hes really just trying to sell you his sub par hosting and charge for something like that that takes literally a couple minutes.

We actually set up an account with him because I needed a quick place to dump some nonwork shit for a few months. I won't bother much with the details, because he would probably just refute them anyhow...but fuck what a nightmare. It ended when the HDD in the server we were sharing was seized by the FBI.

I set up a friend at the same time...so she can backup my story.

Top notch service.

12-30-2011, 03:58 PM	#1
SlammedMedia Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,573	$150 For Script Installation with Webair??? Since When? I've been with Webair for over 3 years and have never once been charged for a basic 3rd party script installation. Tonight I requested one be installed and 30+ minutes later I'm told there will be a $99 charge for the installation, but am told it's usually $150. The script's pretty basic and I can't imagine it would take them much more than 5 minutes. Before tonight I thought my server was fully managed and included installation of 3rd party scripts, since I've had them installed numerous times without any talk of a charge. Is anyone else unaware of such a charge? __________________ ICQ: 350-260-628

12-30-2011, 04:04 PM	#2
Emil Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 5,650	Why dont you install it yourself? __________________ Free 🅑🅘🅣🅒🅞🅘🅝🅢 Every Hour (Yes, really. Free ₿itCoins.) (Signup with ONLY your Email and Password. You can also refer people and get even more.)

12-30-2011, 04:18 PM	#11
Mutt Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 34,431	i must be an idiot, i've never asked a hosting company to install a script for me. __________________ I moved my sites to Vacares Hosting. I've saved money, my hair is thicker, lost some weight too! Thanks Sly!

12-30-2011, 04:22 PM	#14
MaDalton I am Amazing Content! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 39,829	never had that problem with techiemedia __________________ AmazingContent.com - providing only the best content and service since 2003 Monetize your content on Veegaz.com - one of Germanies largest VOD sites Got German traffic? We convert it into money for you! Skype: madalton02826 - Email: oltecconsult [at] gmail [dot] com

12-30-2011, 04:44 PM	#17
BareBacked Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: www.BareBacked.com Posts: 3,685	Sign of the times. I have seen this happening with a ton of "service providers" If they keep nickel and diming clients they are not going to have any left __________________ NEW SITE PAYING $30 for a $1 TRIAL Selfies

12-30-2011, 04:11 PM	#7
Jarmusch Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 12,464	Give some sigwhore here 10 bucks to install it.

12-30-2011, 04:15 PM	#9
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,156	It's a managed dedicated? Yeah, they should be installing that for free.

12-30-2011, 04:26 PM	#15
AdultKing Raise Your Weapon Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Outback Australia Posts: 15,601	If it's a managed server and you're paying a premium already for it to be managed then I don't understand why they are charging you. Is there any mention on your plan documentation or contract of such charges ? Did you raise your concerns about the charge with them then and there, if so what was the response ?

12-30-2011, 05:48 PM	#22
Babaganoosh ♥♥♥ Likes Hugs ♥♥♥ Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: /home Posts: 15,841	Why do lazy, incompetent people insist on trying to become webmasters? If only hosts wouldn't coddle them. Installing a script should never be a host's responsibility. How long until some of you inept motherfuckers want them to design and manage your site too? Dumbasses. __________________ I like pie.

12-30-2011, 06:01 PM	#23
raymor Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,745	I always looked at a managed server as meaning they'll manage the SERVER, not manage the sites or install and configure uninjured amounts of third party scripts. Sure if you're a long term customer they might do one as a favor every now and again, but I wouldn't expect them to be doing it all the time without charging for it. This if only because some scripts can take an hour or more to set up, then the webmaster changes their mind and wants a different one, etc. I wouldn't WANT to pay enough of a premium to cover unlimited work like that. The 90% of customers who don't need the extra hand holding would be paying for what they don't need. __________________ For historical display only. This information is not current: support@bettercgi.com ICQ 7208627 Strongbox - The next generation in site security Throttlebox - The next generation in bandwidth control Clonebox - Backup and disaster recovery on steroids

12-30-2011, 06:16 PM	#24
Dvae Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: US Posts: 5,326	Another satisfied Webair customer __________________ . . Arguing with a troll is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig, after a couple of hours you realize the pig likes it.

12-30-2011, 07:20 PM	#25
iSpyCams Amateur Gynecologist Industry Role: Join Date: May 2009 Location: Medellin Posts: 4,436	What is the script? is it 99dollarinstalltube ?

12-30-2011, 08:08 PM	#28
zurich So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 202	SlammedCash = retarded

12-30-2011, 08:12 PM	#29
B.Barnato So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,618	Things like this are the reason I host exclusively with geocities and blogspot.

12-30-2011, 09:29 PM	#32
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,372	bit pricey for a simple script to be installed. __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

12-31-2011, 01:58 AM	#34
k0nr4d Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 9,229	I never really considered scritp installation as part of managed webhosting tbh. I always viewed it more as the webmasters responsibility, and managed hosting was more setting up emails domains etc __________________ Mechanical Bunny Media Mechbunny Tube Script \| Mechbunny Webcam Aggregator Script \| Custom Web Development

12-31-2011, 02:31 AM	#37
PornDiscounts-R Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 1,272	Man, i`m glad i host with Rackco. Never had a problem with getting help on installs, tweaks, solving problems that is software releted. Allways great help on chat and ticket support Happy new year to you guys __________________ Email# rasmus(you*know)porndiscounts.com

12-31-2011, 09:25 AM	#38
seeandsee Check SIG! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Europe (Skype: gojkoas) Posts: 50,945	that is nice chunk of $ billed, question is it worthed __________________ BUY MY SIG - 50$/Year Contact here

12-31-2011, 09:27 AM	#39
TubeSubmitters Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,683	Webair for the win! __________________ Buying sites with income, paying by paxum, hit me up

12-31-2011, 09:39 AM	#40
barcodes Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 2,040	If I was going to get railo or coldfusion set up on the system I would want them to do it. If its like wordpress or magento or something, I don't mind doing it. If they don't have this already, maybe they could implement a simple scripts type of setup like bluehost has. Hostgator just started to use it in their cpanel, I forgot what they called theirs. If it is something more obscure, and it wants me to fuck with settings or tweaking server files, I would probably want them to do it. As a managed service, I would expect it to be part of the plan. Usually in my experience with like a tube script or something, I will load the folders or install whatever I can and ask them to turn on or off any special settings mentioned in the how-to that I don't feel safe or really know how to mess with. As someone who works with clients that can never make up their minds, if they spend mass amounts of time asking for different things to be installed, there should be some a point where you can charge them extra. I don't know lol Last edited by barcodes; 12-31-2011 at 09:41 AM..

12-31-2011, 09:47 AM	#41
barcodes Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 2,040	I remember when I first started plaing with cfforms, you have to point a folder from the coldfusion admin to your site folder for it to work right. I asked him to show me as I was curious. He went on to show me how to get in using remote access, creating folders in the site folder and setting the properties up, mime types and shit. He then went on showing me how to point the cflib folder to the newly created domain. I didn't retain any of that and the next time I needed it pointed, in fear of fucking something up on a 650/month dedicated unmanaged box... I just made him do it He still does it for me whenever it comes up Best of luck to everyone involved

12-31-2011, 10:46 AM	#42
WebairGerard Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 8,113	I am honestly surprised to see this post. Especially since after checking with the sales person who assisted you told me that he came to an agreement and to NOT CHARGE YOU for the installation once it was determined that the install should be fairly straight forward. As many have mentioned already a Fully Managed server does not mean that we manage client websites and 3rd party scripts/products as that is the responsibility of the webmaster. If and when assistance is needed in that regard we of course can offer solutions to help and quote for the work/time to do so. Now if this was for something like adjustments to Apache, MySQL, etc, yes of course that is something that you would expect from a managed hosting service. Under our Fully Managed platform we manage the SERVER, and the infrastructure of your hosting environment (datacenter, redundant power, cooling, network connectivity, server hardware, 24x7 skilled technicians, physical security). In addition to: System Level Health Monitoring & Notifications Core Operating System Updates & patches Security Enhancements Proactive Response & Restoration of Monitoring Events Full Web Server Support including Apache Plus something to keep in mind all 3rd party scripts and installs are different (not counting standard programs like WordPress,etc.) and should be looked at as case by case. Something that you think may be just a few minutes to install can cause other issues on the server or site and now this few minute install can easily turn into a much larger project. All that said, I will wish everyone a Happy New Year! Peace, Love, and Happiness to all! __________________

12-31-2011, 02:13 PM	#44
gleem Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Sunny Land Posts: 5,593	Take the money you save by not paying for any of your scraped content and hire a programmer to install a script Managed hosting doesn't mean custom script installs unless it's a server level script, that's the way it's always been, welcome to the internet. __________________ Contact me: \\// E: webmaster /at/ unprofessional.com Last edited by gleem; 12-31-2011 at 02:14 PM..

12-31-2011, 02:37 PM	#47
epitome So Fucking Lame Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: St. Petersburg, FL Posts: 12,156	Well I guess Naked Hosting goes above and beyond. They've installed anything I've asked for without charge and have even updated my WP installs so I didn't have to. I'm spoiled.

12-31-2011, 02:51 PM	#48
Deej I make pixels work Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: I live here... Posts: 24,386	Que up Barefootsies ... im sure hes dying to tell you how thats always standard with hosting companies unless theyre well known and established and can afford to give away "hard work" like that. meaning hes really just trying to sell you his sub par hosting and charge for something like that that takes literally a couple minutes. __________________ Deej's Designs n' What Not Hit me up for Design, CSS & Photo Retouching Icq#30096880