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-   -   Predetermined Fate (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=1048111)

notime 12-02-2011 02:23 PM
If that is what you believe, it is most likely to happen in your world.

u-Bob 12-02-2011 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by STBOSS (Post 18602406)
Yes it does disprove free will.
How?

Quote:
Not everyone can be President or Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or Bruce Lee etc. You'd have to grow up in exactly the same environment they did, experience exactly the same things they did, have the same exact personality as they had and as I keep going, you'll see in order to be them, you have to be them. Every single factor even on the smallest level, involved in making them them, is the reason they were or are who they are.
Are you talking about becoming an exact copy of another human being? Or about becoming as rich as those people?

u-Bob 12-02-2011 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by STBOSS (Post 18602417)
and Yes, you make a decision based on information available to you at the time. Exactly, you're limited to a certain number of paths and the path you choose will be based on a number of other things but the bottom line is, you're only selecting which path works best for you or for the situation. So I think choice is just you finding your predetermined path.
So according to you logic, a criminal should not be punished for his actions because he had no other choice?

STBOSS 12-02-2011 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 18602533)
So according to you logic, a criminal should not be punished for his actions because he had no other choice?
A criminal should be understood. Never punished. Murderers should be kept away from the rest of society, they're dangerous but it's not their fault.

There's two guys robbing a store. One guy shoots the clerk, while the other guy is shocked and never expected the other guy to shoot the clerk. He thought they would just take the money and leave. What's the difference between those two guys? There are a lot of differences, a lot of things that have lead them to be in the position they're in where one of them ends up being a killer and the other ends up being shocked and scared the robbery was taken that far.

u-Bob 12-02-2011 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by STBOSS (Post 18602569)
A criminal should be understood. Never punished. Murderers should be kept away from the rest of society, they're dangerous but it's not their fault.

There's two guys robbing a store. One guy shoots the clerk, while the other guy is shocked and never expected the other guy to shoot the clerk. He thought they would just take the money and leave. What's the difference between those two guys? There are a lot of differences, a lot of things that have lead them to be in the position they're in where one of them ends up being a killer and the other ends up being shocked and scared the robbery was taken that far.
Please define the word crime.

STBOSS 12-02-2011 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 18602643)
Please define the word crime.
Crime = breaking laws

Shotsie 12-03-2011 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 18602056)
1. I already addressed that. You make a decision based on the information that is available to you at the time.

2. You're using circular arguments (circular reasoning / logical fallacy).
No, i'm not using circular arguments, you're using a strawman argument by saying that i'm using a circular argument. Without realizing it, you actually put up a strong argument for determinism right here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by u-Bob (Post 18601347)
In this world of scarcity, things happen. It rains, the sun shines, there can be a hurricane, a drought etc. There's a limited supply of water, wood, oil, iron... And there's a limited amount of 'fuel' in your body. Those are the facts of life. Those are things that define the physical world we live in.
I am not arguing against the existence of free will; I am saying that free will alone does not determine your fate. All of those "facts of life" that you have no control over have an influence on your fate. Free will and predetermined fate are not mutually exclusive. You have no decision whether or not you're going to get struck by a car, thus it could be argued that your fate is predetermined.


Free will is an illusion to a certain extent since there are far more predetermined factors affecting our actions on a day to day basis than truly free choices. It could be said that the universe shows evidence of a designing or controlling power that has more control over our fate than we do ourselves. If we are all responsible for our own actions, that means that we must also be responsible for our mental state, but it's impossible for someone to be responsible for the way they are in respect to that. By your reasoning, a retard can become a billionare if he wills it; a woman who walks down a dark alley late at night and gets raped is responsible for it because she chose to walk down that alley.


How a person acts is a product of prior events and genetic makeup. In other words, We can will what we do, but we cannot will what we will, and in that sense we are not all truly acting of our own free will.


And how does denying the existence of free will deny personal responsibility?


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