anyway back to original topic, I think CM Punk makes a fine supremee being to seek spiritual strength from man.

I use my cat as my higher power and I am sober for 11 years.

The problem itself it's to be compelled to enroll in AA ...

Keep coming back it works if you jerk it :winkwink:

I don't get why people knock NA/AA, especially recovering addicts. It works for some people, if you don't like it then cope with your addictions on your own and become a dry drunk or drug addict white-knuckling your way through sobriety. It just seems like some militant atheists reject it outright because of some of the spiritual aspects of it.


Personally, i've seen it benefit a lot of people positively, and i've had people tell me that it completely changed their outlook on life and the way they live it. I'm talking about hardcore heroin addicts, people who I would've bet money that they wouldn't live to see thirty, completely turn their lives around and are now succesful, happy and sober credit NA with helping them achieve content sobriety. Now they in turn help other people to get clean and stay clean, what's wrong with that?


That orange papers writer just comes off as a bitter jerkoff. I only skimmed the site but I didn't see him offering any alternative to NA/AA or providing any kind of positive message to anybody who might be trying to recover. The only thing I noticed him say was that "people should try to get some other treatment", nice advice.

Try using your ego as your HP. See how quick it kills ya. It doesn't matter what it is, just as long as it's far enough removed from the ego.

I stopped trying to figure it all out. My HP is infinite, won't lie, cheat, steal, and still loves hot naked chicks. My job is to uncover, discover and discard anything that gets in between me and my hp.

Oh right. But this 'force' cannot be measured in anyway. One just has to accept it is there, like God?

No, because it is very very very easy to understand how electricity works. It's a type of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed. Read more here: http://www.explainthatstuff.com/electricity.html

Pretty bloody hard as it is really easy to prove it exists and explain it.

Yes. Because spirituality is for the weak, those who need to put the control of their life into the hands of something not there. Not measurable, not scientific. Just blind faith. Like a
fairy tale.

Atheists usually prefer a science-based approach, like CBT. (not the BDSM variety)

That is, at least, proven to work, is measurable and doesn't rely on any bullshit 'power' or 'spirituality' that can't be shown to be there.

The 12 steps do not tackle the ROOT of why you are addicted to your addiction. It just says "everything cool, trust in god". I think tackling the root of the issue would be better. This is why so many 12 steppers are massive smokers/coffee freaks. Transference of addiction.

lol. The root doesn't fucking matter does it? Hey, I was 'insert bad thing here' so I'm an alcoholic. Great. Now I know why I'm an alcoholic. If I deal with the residue of those/that issue(s), I won't drink alcoholically, huzzah!

Erm, wrong. Well, wrong for some people, and not for others. Lightbulb moment - let those who want AA/etc have it, instead of saying the whole thing is flawed, and those that don't want it, don't fucking go to AA. Easy, innit.

and lol @ spirituality is for the weak. Like football is for boys, and ballet is for girls.

see hard hard you are working to prove that 'it' doesn't exist? while I on the other hand have been enjoying my life with 'g_d' and the positive that comes into my life with g_d.

you can post shit about electricity til the sun burns out... still don't understand, just like you can't understand a sense of well being from the positive inertia I allow to work in my life...

if you should chose to paint my 'relationship' with the '+1' in my life using the religious brush so you can belittle the concept, thats on you 'bro...' your efforts and bitterness have no effect on me to be honest about it...

from my perspective you are a color blind man denying color, which is fine reallly... the question is why do you care if I have a life filled with color while you live in a drab BW world? are you that miserable that you must try and force that life on me? or is it that you feel so intellectually superior that you much force my ignorance into the light so you can be magnificent?

not being a dick with you here or taking the piss as you blokes put it... just the fact that I enjoy my life with an 'unqualified positiveness' and it seems you are determined to destroy that.... strange isn't it? especially when there is no effect on you whatsoever.

What do you think the ROOT is? Where does it say "Everything is cool, trust in god"?

Let's take god out of the steps - Here's the agnostic version of the steps:


1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol- that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe and to accept that we needed strengths beyond our awareness and resources to restore us to sanity.

(Original: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.)

3. Made a decision to entrust our will and our lives to the care of the collective wisdom and resources of those who have searched before us.

(Original: Made a decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.)

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to ourselves without reservation and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

(Original: Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.)

6. Were ready to accept help in letting go of all our defects of character.

(Original: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.)

7. With humility and openness sought to eliminate our shortcomings.

(Original: Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.)

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through meditation to improve our spiritual awareness, make recovery a priority and to discover the power to carry out that way of life.

(Original: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.)

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Where did I do that? I was just trying to explain electricity to you?

That's awesome for you.

Oh. That was a page for explaining it to children. Don't think I can get one more basic. But even if *you* don't understand, you are aware that humankind is no longer confused as to how electricity works, right?

oh so it's "inertia" now? not "energy"? OK.

No, I cannot understand how having faith in something you can't prove exists helps you do anything much.

I don't care at all. Knock yourself out.

If you get pleasure from something you believe in that's awesome.

I'm not miserable at all. I merely asked a couple of questions that because you can't answer you seem to get dreadfully cross about.

Honey, understanding electricity doesn't make me intellectually superior. Most kids get it.

Destroy your happiness? Where am I doing that? I am merely asking a couple of questions. Calm down.

I think the root of anyone's problems is the thing you need to address. Do you think all the case studies and proof of that are wrong?

I was paraphrasing. But the idea seemed to me to be "Don't take any responsibility for your actions and trust in god and all will be cool.


See, I have an issue with that one really. You are not powerless over alcohol. You *chose* to have a drink.

And the other main issue is 'spirituality' doesn't really work as a replacement for 'god'/'higher power'.

However, I am really glad for anyone it has helped. Just making some points.

I totally agree with you. The root is what needs to be worked on. I believe that the main problems are 1) a physical reaction that produces a craving 2) a mental issue and 3) a lack of power

This is where you are wrong. Most alcoholics don't know what their problem is or why they drink. The 4th step is the action step where the alcoholic figures out what character defects cause him to tic. Then move on to the 9th step where they fess up and make amends for everything they've done wrong. These are not easy steps for anyone and it's all about taking responsibility for your actions.


Real alcoholics have lost the power of choice when it comes to alcohol. They seem to forget the consequences of what alcohol does to them. I suspect that's part of the mental issue. For most alcoholics, their problem isn't alcohol. Their problems are centered in their mind (ego, selfishness, frightened or over emotional) Alcohol "takes the edge off" these perceived problems and makes life manageable. Alcohol is actually their solution to their problems.

I'm not going to get into the debate of "spirituality" over "god/hp." Whatever works to get the alcoholic out of themselves will do the trick.

You know what amazes me? The 12 steps have been around since 1939! And with all the advancements in science and technology, These 12 principals seem to be the best shot for a dying alchy. They've literally saved millions of people from a seemingly hopeless state.

The powerlessness is the inability to choose NOT to have that second drink, or subsequent ones. Once you accept that, you realise that the 1st drink is where the trouble starts, not the 10th one. And by 'you' I mean 'I'.