Should speed limits exist in the United States?

[xenigo]

German Autobahn has nearly half the death rate per million as on US roads. When speed limits were lifted in Montana, the death rate per million dropped by 50%. This, despite lawmakers insistence that "speed kills".

People drive at speeds they're comfortable at. People drive at speeds their vehicles can comfortably and safely achieve. When I'm driving our Toyota Highlander, I spend most of the time in the right lane because the vehicle does not handle properly above 80mph. It's a large vehicle and the tires and brakes are not capable of high performance. However, when I'm driving the BMW 335i, I can drive safely and easily on many parts of our freeways in Northern California at around 120-140mph.

Laws are supposed to be about enforcing safety, not about establishing an artificially low speed limit purely for revenue generation. Our laws were written so police have the discretion of enforcing them in times of when someone is actually jeopardizing their own safety or the safety of others. Many vehicles cannot safely travel at high speed because of suspension limitations, wheel and tire combination limitations, and braking limitations. In the name of safety, it would certainly make sense for highway patrol to issue a speeding citation to someone driving an economy car at 140mph.

But in the name of safety, it makes zero sense to issue a speeding citation to someone driving a well maintained late model Lamborghini, on the basis of speed alone. These vehicles are vastly more safe than economy cars traveling at half the speed. There are MANY factors that need to be taken into account. Weather. Disk brake diameter. Vehicle condition. Road conditions. Pavement quality. Traffic density. Tire width. Tire tread. Tire speed rating. Independent suspension vs. solid rear axle. Weight of the vehicle. Height of the vehicle.

Beyond the serious problem of police agencies using speed laws as sources for revenue, there is the dubious rationale for speed limits themselves. If you were to talk about the prospect of having no speed limits with a police officer, their opinion is that our freeways would turn into pure carnage. Horrific carnage. Vehicles would shoot off the road like out of control slot-cars, flinging bodies from the windows.

Studies prove this is not true. When speed limits are lifted, people actually become MORE courteous drivers. Accidents become far fewer. In fact, the most amazing thing happens; Drivers actually practice lane-courtesy. Gone is the attitude of "What do you mean you want to go faster than me? I'm going the speed limit. No, I'm not moving right." People stay right unless passing, almost by instinct. People do not need a sign telling them the appropriate speed of travel. Interestingly, lowering the speed limit does not serve to slow people down. Similarly, lifting the speed limit doesn't speed people up, either. People drive the speed they're comfortable driving.

Did you know that vehicle insurance companies actually lobby lawmakers for lowered speed limits to keep premiums high, and vastly improving profits? Did you know that they actually purchase lidar and radar guns for police agencies to facilitate the ticketing process, thus perpetuating the revenue generation process for police and themselves, and allowing police to maintain their payroll budget years into the future?

So, should speed limits exist in the United States?

Fascinating reading:

http://www.motorists.org/speed-limits/faq

http://autos.aol.com/article/driving-the-autobahn/

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/s...0304-pjin.html

http://www.funandsafedriving.com/ftopict-145.html

[scuba steve]

haha you never drove in miami. people already do 80-100 everywhere and suck at it. i read every two days in the paper about someone dying from a car accident. the masses aren't smart enough to drive with caution. give a person an inch, they'll take a mile

[Rochard]

The speed limit here in California is 65mph, but the flow of traffic is more like 80mph. So what's the point?

I myself, have a long history of nasty speeding tickets - all of them for exceeding 100mph. No accidents, no other tickets... I'm a good driver but on the open freeway I don't see the point of driving 80mph.

[Slick]

I'm not sure about getting rid of speed limits, but I think that 55mph should be raised to 65mph everywhere, but then I suppose if they raise them up, everyone will do 75.

[acctman]

Yes speed limits should exist. Just from reading what you post, they should have even more strict speed laws. Everyone thinks they're the best driver on the road and there car and move and do things that no other car can do. I live in GA and it seems that anyone with a mustang or corvette thinks they own the road.

A lot of factors are considered with the standard 35 and 55 speed limits... mainly the reaction time it takes a person to go from 55mph to 0 and the distance it takes in an average car. Raising the limit would cause more accidents consider you can pretty much get away with going 5-9mph over the limit which would make the average speed 70-74mph which is too fast for most people to react and stop.

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by acctman

Yes speed limits should exist. Just from reading what you post, they should have even more strict speed laws. Everyone thinks they're the best driver on the road and there car and move and do things that no other car can do. I live in GA and it seems that anyone with a mustang or corvette thinks they own the road.

Hence the reason I cited the statistics and included the articles.

[baddog]

Originally Posted by Rochard

The speed limit here in California is 65mph, but the flow of traffic is more like 80mph. So what's the point?

You need to get out more if you think the speed limit is 65. The OP has never driven in Germany I guess.

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by acctman

A lot of factors are considered with the standard 35 and 55 speed limits... mainly the reaction time it takes a person to go from 55mph to 0 and the distance it takes in an average car. Raising the limit would cause more accidents consider you can pretty much get away with going 5-9mph over the limit which would make the average speed 70-74mph which is too fast for most people to react and stop.

You just confirmed you didn't read what I posted. That's fine, but present a rational argument if you want to talk seriously.

[Joshua G]

considering all the frightening stupidity i see on the highways, i don't want to see the idiots drive any faster.

i'm not persuaded that faster driving will make slower drivers get out of the fast lane. what studies show such a thing. one site you linked to reads like a propaganda piece, no balance.

unlimited speed is good when your smart & can own a car that can handle it. that excludes most of the public.

But i lean away from government, so in the end i would support removing limits so i can go 120 without worring about jonny law.

[justinsain]

Here's a link to a car crash that happened this morning not too far from where I'm at.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44241281.../#.TlR9NGCJnjg

Young guy in a sports car capable of high speeds.

Died at the scene.

If he would've done the speed limit he would still be alive.

Yes, speed limits are necessary so people in all kinds of vehicles with different levels of experience can all share the public roads in an organized manner
with the goal of getting from point A to point B safely.

I'm willing to bet that the guy that killed himself this morning thought speed limits were stupid, should be ignored
and hated the old people that drove the speed limit and got in his way.

[Nathan]

Sorry to break it to you, but deaths on german highways is not less than on us ones because of no speed limit (btw, over 50% of German autobahn has limits of under 120kph). But rather because Germans actually follow driving laws. If you would try no speed limit in all of the us accidents would rise, not fall! Idiots would pass on the right driving 100mph. That itself would cause a huge rise in accidents.

[Robbie]

Yes speed limits must exist, especially the 35 mph and 25 mph speed limits here in Vegas on 6 lane roads that are straight with no red lights.

How else would the city be able to finance itself? And what would become of the auto insurance agencies if all these soccer moms getting bullshit speeding tickets and subsequent insurance rate hikes, were suddenly just allowed to drive 45 and 50 mph on these giant empty roads out here in the suburbs?

[Socks]

I'd rather see some SPEND limits put in place. ;)

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Sorry to break it to you, but deaths on german highways is not less than on us ones because of no speed limit (btw, over 50% of German autobahn has limits of under 120kph). But rather because Germans actually follow driving laws. If you would try no speed limit in all of the us accidents would rise, not fall! Idiots would pass on the right driving 100mph. That itself would cause a huge rise in accidents.

Hey Fabian... It's not about promoting disorder. Rather the opposite. Right now there is complete disorder on the road. It's complete anarchy. Police are only concerned with speed, not safety. Translation, they want money.

They don't care about vehicle capabilities.

They don't care about lane courtesy.

What I'm saying is there needs to be strict, swift, and aggressive enforcement of laws which promote safety. Speed enforcement isn't one of them, as proven by death per million statistics in Germany. Physics don't work differently on that side of the pond. We need to educate drivers on the performance capabilities of their vehicles so they can understand courtesy, and respect courtesy, and practice courtesy. The reason German drivers are so well mannered is because of the education they receive prior to obtaining a license. They go through a thorough driving education program that drivers in the US never receive. Right now all you need to do is thumb through a driver's handbook, and answer a bunch of multiple choice questions.

When police use speed enforcement laws for their own financial gain, they effectively eliminate the respect people have for it.

The reason we have such chaos in the States is because we've got unionized police labor that really just does not give a rat's ass about safety. They care about making money, and that's where it ends.

[baddog]

Did you get a ticket or something?

[DamianJ]

Originally Posted by xenigo

but present a rational argument if you want to talk seriously.

Is speeding really a safety problem? Yes. "It is clear that speeding does represent a significant traffic safety problem," the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) reports. Deaths on rural interstates have increased as a result of most states raising speed limits to 65 mph on these roads during the late 1980s. Because speeding reduces the time drivers have to avoid crashes, it increases not only the likelihood of crashing but also the severity of crashes that do occur. According to NHTSA, speeding is one of the most prevalent reported factors associated with crashes. The agency estimates that speeding is involved in 12 percent of all crashes and one-third of all fatal crashes. (These estimates are likely to be conservative because of the difficulty of establishing precrash travel speeds after crashes.) NHTSA estimates that 13,909 fatalities and 77,277 moderate to critical injuries occurred in speed-related crashes in 1991 and that the cost of all speed-related crashes was more than $18 billion.

Roadway design factors, including how far ahead a driver can see, are compromised if vehicles travel faster than circumstances warrant. Other vehicles and pedestrians are put at risk by speeding drivers whose distances they may not be able to judge accurately. Recent studies have shown that drivers who run red lights are likely to be speeding and that motorcyclists who crash with other vehicles making left turns are also likely to be speeding.

What is the relationship between how fast a car is going and what happens in a crash? The higher the travel speed, the greater the risk of serious injury or death in a crash. Vehicles and their occupants in motion have kinetic energy that is dissipated in a crash. The greater the energy that must be dissipated, the greater the chances of severe injury or death. Motor vehicle crashes are complex events with multiple causes, and individuals have a wide range of tolerance to injury, but the amount of energy that must be dissipated - thus the probability and severity of injury in a crash - is related to a vehicle's speed at impact.

The laws of physics tell us that the energy of impact delivered to vehicle occupants in collisions increases nonlinearly with impact speed. In other words, crash severity increases disproportionately with vehicle speed. A frontal impact at 35 mph, for example, is one-third more violent than one at 30 mph. Using data from the National Accident Sampling System, which is based on field investigations of a national sample of police-reported crashes, NHTSA researchers compared the relative severity of injuries in crashes with the estimated crash impact speed. The percentage of occupants with serious injuries consistently and dramatically increases with increasing impact speed. For example, the rate of severe injury for people involved in crashes at impact speeds of 21-30 mph is 11.1 - a rate that increases to 27.9 at impact speeds of 31-40 mph and to 54.3 at speeds of 50 mph or more. (The rate is calculated as the number of occupants at a certain impact speed with severe injuries, divided by the total number of occupants in crashes at that impact level times 100.)

Who speeds the most? Young drivers speed more often than older drivers. In a study of drivers on limited access highways, high-speed drivers were more often male and more often judged to be younger than 30. Studies in California have found that the rate of speeding violations per mile traveled is at least three times as high for drivers 16-19 years old as it is for drivers age 30 and older. Although speeding is a problem among all driver age groups, the crashes and violations of young drivers are much more likely to be related to speed than is the case for drivers of other ages - and the motor vehicle crash death rate per 100,000 people is especially high among 16-24 year-olds. A NHTSA analysis found that the relative proportion of speed-related fatal crashes decreases with increasing driver age. About 37 percent of all drivers age 14-19 involved in fatal crashes were in speed-related crashes, but the percentage among drivers 70 and older decreased to 7 percent. At all ages, male drivers are more likely than female drivers to be involved in speed-related fatal crashes.

Isn't speed variation - not speeding - the real problem? No. Although research conducted in the 1950s on two-lane rural roads did indicate that vehicles traveling much faster or much slower than average were more likely to be involved in crashes, this issue is not relevant on today's high-speed highways with controlled access. The authors of this early study acknowledged that their findings could not be extended to controlled access freeways, but some proponents of higher travel speeds have attempted to do so. Many differences in travel speeds are unavoidable because of the slower speeds of turning or merging vehicles. Many crashes, and nearly half of those resulting in occupant deaths, are single-vehicle impacts in which differences among vehicle speeds play no role or only a very minor one. Finally, the risk of death and severe injury is a direct exponential function of speed, not speed differences.

What is the role of speed in crashes? Speed influences crashes in four basic ways:

It increases the distance a vehicle travels from when a driver detects an emergency until the driver reacts.
It increases the distance needed to stop a vehicle once an emergency is perceived.
Crash severity increases by the square of the speed so that, when speed increases from 40 to 60 mph, speed goes up 50 percent while the energy released in a crash more than doubles.
Higher crash speeds reduce the ability of vehicles and restraint systems to protect occupants.
Does the speed limit matter? Don't drivers speed anyway? Many drivers tend to drive somewhat faster than posted speed limits, no matter what the limits are. Although people often opt to travel somewhat faster than the posted limit, they do not completely ignore it but choose a speed they perceive as unlikely to result in a ticket. The more important speed-related safety issue on freeways involves the proportion of vehicles traveling at very high speeds, not the proportion violating the speed limit. The Institute's frequent monitoring of free-flowing travel speeds on interstate highways where the 55 mph speed limit was retained and speeds on roads where limits have been raised to 65 mph shows that, in general, higher speed limits lead to greater proportions of cars traveling faster than 70 mph. For example, in New Mexico, the first state to raise its limits to 65 mph on rural interstates, the proportion of motorists exceeding 70 mph grew from 5 percent shortly after speed limits were raised to 36 percent in 1993. On urban interstates that stayed at 55 mph, only 13 percent of cars and 2 percent of tractor-trailers traveled faster than 70. In Maryland, which retained 55 mph limits, the proportion traveling faster than 70 mph remained virtually unchanged at 7 percent during 1988-93. By 1994, 12-15 percent of cars were exceeding 70. In neighboring Virginia, which switched to 65 mph limits, the percentage exceeding 70 mph went from 8 percent in 1988 to 29 percent by 1992 and 39 percent by 1994.

Why 55 mph? Isn't this just a holdover from the gas crisis? Speed limit laws, which date back to 1901, have traditionally been the responsibility of the states. Then Congress responded to the oil shortage of 1973 by directing the U.S. Department of Transportation to withhold highway funding from states that did not adopt a maximum speed limit of 55 mph. The National Research Council attributed 4,000 fewer fatalities to the decreased speeds in 1974, compared with 1973, and estimated that returning the speed limit on rural portions of the interstate highway system to pre-1974 levels would result in 500 more fatalities annually, a 20-25 percent increase on these highways. As concerns about fuel availability and costs faded, however, speeds began to gradually climb on U.S. highways. By the mid-1980s, a substantial majority of vehicles on rural interstates were exceeding 55 mph. In response to claims that the 55 mph limit had made the United States a nation of law breakers and assertions that deaths and injuries would not increase because people were already traveling at the speeds at which they felt comfortable, Congress allowed states to increase speed limits on rural interstates to 65 mph in 1987.

[DamianJ]

Only a few states- Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island - retain 55 mph maximum speed limits on all highways. Delaware and the District of Columbia do not have any rural interstates, and Massachusetts has fewer than 100 miles posted at 65 mph. Fifty-five keeps down the proportion of vehicles traveling at very high speeds. More vehicles travel at 70 mph and faster in states with 65 mph speed limits than in states that retained 55 mph speed limits on rural interstates, which are designed for 70 mph travel only under the most favorable conditions.

What is the effect of raising speed limits to 65 mph? Higher travel speeds and more deaths. In states where speed limits were raised to 65 mph in 1987, the higher limits are causing about 15-20 percent more deaths on rural interstates each year than otherwise would be expected. Institute studies show that, in states that raised rural interstate speed limits, about 400 lives are lost each year because of the higher limits.

How are speed limits established? Speed limits are typically set based on a roadway's design - for example, whether it is a narrow two-lane byway or a modern controlled access freeway- and whether the surrounding area is urban, suburban, or rural. It has been argued that measuring the speed distribution of a roadway and then setting the speed limit so that 85 percent of motorists would be in compliance reduces the need for enforcement and, at the same time, reduces crash risk by narrowing variation among vehicle speeds. However, numerous studies of travel speeds on rural interstate highways have shown that 85th percentile speeds increased when speed limits were raised to 65 mph and then continued increasing. Thus, the 85th percentile is not a stationary point. It is rather a moving target that increases when speed limits are raised. If speed limits are raised to meet a current 85th percentile speed, a new 85th percentile that is higher will soon result.

Others claim that, because interstate highways meet rigid design standards for sight distance and roadway geometry, they should be posted at their design speeds. The problem is that a design speed is not necessarily a safe travel speed. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials defines design speed as "the maximum safe speed that can be maintained...when conditions are so favorable that the design features govern." In other words, it is the maximum speed at which drivers can maintain a safe level of vehicle control on a particular section of highway under the conditions for which the highway was designed. Speed limits are set somewhat lower because conditions are not always favorable. Many motorists also assume there is a kind of built-in tolerance factor in speed limit enforcement, so they exceed the limit regardless of what it is.

Does research show that slightly faster speed limits would reduce crashes? No. Advocates of higher speed limits have claimed that research on speed variation indicates faster speeds are not hazardous. They cite David Solomon's research from the mid-1950s and similar studies that seem to show an increase in crash likelihood among drivers traveling slower than the average speed and a minimum of crashes at 5-10 mph above the average speed. However, the travel speeds of crash-involved drivers in these studies were obtained from driver reports and police estimates, and it is well known that drivers exceeding speed limits are likely to deliberately underestimate their speeds. Such underestimation can account for much of the apparent underinvolvement of moderately high-speed drivers in crashes. In addition, later research found that simply removing the crashes involving intersections and turning maneuvers eliminated the exaggerated overinvolvement of slower drivers in crashes. More important, the Solomon research addressed only speed variation, not speed limits. Raising speed limits raises average speeds as well.

If going faster than 65 mph is prohibited, why do vehicle speedometers go to 120 mph? There is no good reason. Although a national law enforcement summit convened by the U.S. Secretary of Transportation in 1990 called for reinstating a regulation establishing 85 mph as the top speed on speedometers in all motor vehicles, there is currently no regulation requiring it. NHTSA noted in rulemaking revoked more than 15 years ago that "speedometers that indicate speeds of 120 mph or more use more than half of the dial to indicate illegal and dangerous speeds."

In the past, automakers often promoted their products by glamorizing high speed. Although many automakers now compete in terms of safety features, there still are exceptions. For example, a television advertisement for the 1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo - a car model with a very high crash fatality rate - featured a 150 mph race between a motorcycle, a race car, and a jet fighter plane. This ad was withdrawn in response to protest from the safety community and general public. Such ads "irresponsibly promote excessive speed and exhibit a blatant disregard for public safety," the Institute observed at the time.

Should trucks have lower speed limits than cars? Yes. Large trucks require much longer distances than cars to stop. Lower speed limits for trucks make heavy vehicle stopping distances closer to those of lighter vehicles. Slower truck speeds also allow automobile drivers to pass trucks more easily. Crashes involving large trucks not only can cause massive traffic tie-ups in congested areas, but they put other road users at great risk - 98 percent of the people killed in two-vehicle crashes involving a passenger vehicle and a large truck are occupants of the passenger vehicles.

Institute studies have shown that lower speed limits for trucks on 65 mph highways lower the proportion traveling faster than 70 mph without increasing variation among vehicle speeds. In one study, only 4 percent of large trucks exceeded 70 mph on Ohio's rural interstates with 55 mph speed limits for large trucks and 65 for cars, but up to six times the proportion of trucks exceeded 70 mph on rural interstates in three other states with uniform 65 mph speed limits. Another study found that the percentage of trucks going faster than 70 mph was twice as large in states with uniform 65 mph limits (14 percent in Arizona, 9 percent in Iowa) as it was in states with different car and truck speed limits (4 percent in California, 3 percent in Illinois).

How do speed limits and safety records in other countries stack up alongside the United States? Germany does not even have speed limits on most autobahns, for example, and longstanding claims point to the safety of these roads. Yet the death rate per 100 million vehicle miles traveled on U.S. interstate highways has generally been lower than the rate on autobahns. Fatality rates have been declining in both countries for many years, but the German rate had historically been much higher than the U.S. rate. For example, there were 1.24 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles traveled on U.S. interstate highways in 1975, compared with 2.75 deaths per 100 million miles on German autobahns. During 1984-86, U.S. and German rates were similar, but when speed limits on rural interstates were raised to 65 mph beginning in 1987, the U.S. interstate death rate became higher than the rate on the autobahn. After German reunification, autobahn fatality rates fluctuated but declined to 0.94 in 1992 while the U.S. rate reached an all-time low of 0.85.

Eighty percent of autobahns do not have speed limits, but several other factors have contributed to declining death rates on these roads. Germany has achieved a very high belt use rate - about 95 percent compared with about 50 percent in the United States. The minimum age for a drivers license in Germany is 18 years old, which eliminates a risky subset of drivers from the road. Passing on the right is illegal on autobahns, and drinking-driving laws are tougher in Germany than in the United States. All of these factors should have contributed to even lower death rates on German autobahns, but the U.S. rate has continued to decline ahead of the German rate.

Are speed-related crashes a problem on urban as well as rural roads? Yes. Speed-related fatal crashes affect all roadways, but the percentage varies by road type. According to NHTSA, about 36 percent of all fatal crashes on rural roads are related to speed, compared with about 30 percent on urban roads. Rural roads account for 40 percent of all vehicle miles traveled, but they account for 61 percent of all speed-related fatal crashes.

Are pedestrians at risk from speeding vehicles on city streets and suburban roads? Yes. The second largest category of motor vehicle deaths, after occupants, is pedestrians, and 69 percent of pedestrian deaths occur in urban areas. The speed of vehicles involved in pedestrian impacts is a major determinant of the severity and outcome of injury. There is a much higher ratio of deaths to injuries where speed limits are higher - nine times as high where the speed limit is 55 mph as on roads where it is 30 mph or lower. A federal study of pedestrian crashes found a positive correlation between speed and injury severity. In addition, vehicle speed influences the likelihood that a pedestrian will be struck in the first place because a driver cannot stop quickly enough. One study found that, even in residential zones, almost 20 percent of vehicles were traveling at more than 30 mph when they struck pedestrians. Some cities are using new approaches to slowing urban traffic to reduce pedestrian crashes, especially in school and work zones.

http://usww.com/homepage/starteam/speed.html

[georgeyw]

Originally Posted by Robbie

Yes speed limits must exist, especially the 35 mph and 25 mph speed limits here in Vegas on 6 lane roads that are straight with no red lights.

How else would the city be able to finance itself? And what would become of the auto insurance agencies if all these soccer moms getting bullshit speeding tickets and subsequent insurance rate hikes, were suddenly just allowed to drive 45 and 50 mph on these giant empty roads out here in the suburbs?

Are there a shitload of cops fining people for speeding in Vegas?

[xenigo]

DamienJ... I read that article and interestingly that information contradicts all the research I've done on the subject. It seems like it was written by the police or at the very least it's very pro police weighted.

Here's just one of the many quotes that is incorrect:

"Many drivers tend to drive somewhat faster than posted speed limits, no matter what the limits are."

Like I mentioned previously, people drive at speeds comfortable for them. If you set the speed limit at 140mph, few people will drive this speed because it's simply not a comfortable speed for most drivers. It does not mean people are automatically going to be going 150mph. But if you set a speed limit that's artificially low, people will exceed it.

[seeandsee]

i think its more related to people and cars they are driving

[xenigo]

Woops... Moved reply below...

[HerPimp]

No limits, but people should know traffic etiquette.

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by seeandsee

i think its more related to people and cars they are driving

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by baddog

Did you get a ticket or something?

I haven't gotten a ticket in probably 8 years or so.

Originally Posted by HerPimp

No limits, but people should know traffic etiquette.

Agreed. There's no excuse for not being a courteous driver.

[My Pimp]

Originally Posted by xenigo

German Autobahn has nearly half the death rate per million as on US roads. When speed limits were lifted in Montana, the death rate per million dropped by 50%. This, despite lawmakers insistence that "speed kills".
[/URL]

In Germany only people older than 18 years are allowed to drive. That is the main reason the death rate is lower. But there is another. There is no speed limit, but the cars have speed limits. The car producers do it consciously. I read something like that in the past.

[BluMedia]

Originally Posted by xenigo

Hey Fabian... It's not about promoting disorder. Rather the opposite. Right now there is complete disorder on the road. It's complete anarchy. Police are only concerned with speed, not safety. Translation, they want money.

They don't care about vehicle capabilities.

They don't care about lane courtesy.

What I'm saying is there needs to be strict, swift, and aggressive enforcement of laws which promote safety. Speed enforcement isn't one of them, as proven by death per million statistics in Germany. Physics don't work differently on that side of the pond. We need to educate drivers on the performance capabilities of their vehicles so they can understand courtesy, and respect courtesy, and practice courtesy. The reason German drivers are so well mannered is because of the education they receive prior to obtaining a license. They go through a thorough driving education program that drivers in the US never receive. Right now all you need to do is thumb through a driver's handbook, and answer a bunch of multiple choice questions.

When police use speed enforcement laws for their own financial gain, they effectively eliminate the respect people have for it.

The reason we have such chaos in the States is because we've got unionized police labor that really just does not give a rat's ass about safety. They care about making money, and that's where it ends.

Well said, I completely agree with you. In Germany if you pass on the right you get a ticket. If you are in the left lane and someone wants to pass and you don't get over you get a ticket. If you don't use your signal you get a ticket. The autobahn works in Germany because they enforce all driving laws, they have an extremely hard driving test and educate their drivers. Police in the US could give a rats ass about anything but speeding. They do enforce drunk driving which is good but they should really educate drivers and enforce all driving laws. Having no speeds limits on certain highways in the US would be a disaster unless we educate and enforce all driving laws.

Mark

[roly]

it depends where you're talking about, "hit a child at 30mph there’s an 80 per cent chance it will survive without serious injury. Hit a child at 40 and there’s a 90 per cent chance you will kill it."

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by roly

it depends where you're talking about, "hit a child at 30mph there?s an 80 per cent chance it will survive without serious injury. Hit a child at 40 and there?s a 90 per cent chance you will kill it."

Only on high speed thoroughfares inaccessible to pedestrians and cross traffic.

[Jakez]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Sorry to break it to you, but deaths on german highways is not less than on us ones because of no speed limit (btw, over 50% of German autobahn has limits of under 120kph). But rather because Germans actually follow driving laws. If you would try no speed limit in all of the us accidents would rise, not fall! Idiots would pass on the right driving 100mph. That itself would cause a huge rise in accidents.

This^

And also, you're expecting every cop to know the specifics of all the cars on the road and what they're capable of and then surely there will be plenty of arguments when a person is getting ticketed and believes their car was perfectly capable of the speed.

But don't get me wrong I also wish there were no speed limits, because I drive like a childish maniac and like to enjoy the car while driving it and wish others enjoyed their cars too, plus I've never had any accidents despite tons of speeding and street racing.

[ottopottomouse]

Originally Posted by roly

it depends where you're talking about, "hit a child at 30mph there?s an 80 per cent chance it will survive without serious injury. Hit a child at 40 and there?s a 90 per cent chance you will kill it."

"hit a child at 30mph there?s an 20 per cent chance it will survive as a dribbling cabbage. Hit a child at 40 and there?s a 10 per cent chance it will survive as a dribbling cabbage."

[BlackCrayon]

Originally Posted by op

People drive at speeds they're comfortable at. People drive at speeds their vehicles can comfortably and safely achieve

what world do you live in? This assumes all people are responsible and know their limits which many clearly, do not.

[DamianJ]

Originally Posted by xenigo

DamienJ... I read that article and interestingly that information contradicts all the research I've done on the subject. It seems like it was written by the police or at the very least it's very pro police weighted.

Here's just one of the many quotes that is incorrect:

"Many drivers tend to drive somewhat faster than posted speed limits, no matter what the limits are."

Like I mentioned previously, people drive at speeds comfortable for them. If you set the speed limit at 140mph, few people will drive this speed because it's simply not a comfortable speed for most drivers. It does not mean people are automatically going to be going 150mph. But if you set a speed limit that's artificially low, people will exceed it.

Sorry that the sensible citations I provided are deemed not good enough to discuss.

You of course have a citation to back up your assertion about people not driving faster than the posted speed limits. You just forgot to post it.

[shimmy2]

speed limits are not enforced here and i only see accidents in bad weather. it was far more dangerous in cali/florida with a train of cars standing on their brakes when they spot a trooper sleeping in the median.

also at fault is most people who speed outdrive the limitations of their tires. few cars are equipped with W or Z rated tires for warranty reasons which is why most cars govern at 130 for H rated tires. but then you have these kids who chip/crank the boost on their rides without getting rubber (or bigger brakes) and youre left with a tragedy

[CyberHustler]

I refuse to read this whole topic right now... but I wonder how many of our accidents are caused by people slowing down too fast when they realize they're going over the speed limit.

[cherrylula]

Here's the kicker.

I have an American cousin living in Munich Germany. It took her like TWO YEARS to get a license, with all kinds of practice and testing. Therefore the drivers are better. Of course she had her license in Southern Cali at like 16 and drove freeways, etc. She still couldn't pass the German test.

Get rid of speed limits in America, better completely restructure the way drivers licenses are handed out. Right now, even 90 year olds drive.

Let's see how good Grandma does at 120 on the Autobahn. LOL

[OldJeff]

Sure we should build an Autobahn, then we should also adapt the German Driver Test to get a liscense. Would solve a ton of problems here, 80% of the drivers would be taken off the roads. Mass transit use would increase to the point of forcing modernization. It would completely end the US need for oil. (Of course since a great deal of the world economy depends on oils sales there would probably be some shake ups there)

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by cherrylula

Here's the kicker.

I have an American cousin living in Munich Germany. It took her like TWO YEARS to get a license, with all kinds of practice and testing. Therefore the drivers are better. Of course she had her license in Southern Cali at like 16 and drove freeways, etc. She still couldn't pass the German test.

Get rid of speed limits in America, better completely restructure the way drivers licenses are handed out. Right now, even 90 year olds drive.

Let's see how good Grandma does at 120 on the Autobahn. LOL

Wow we almost posted the same ideas at the same time

[OldJeff]

http://osterberger.org/test.html

[PR_Glen]

the laws aren't put in place because they think we can't handle a car at it's optimal and safe speeds for our vehicles. They are there because there is a small percentage of people who have no idea what that means and they are the ones who make highways dangerous...

[k0nr4d]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Sorry to break it to you, but deaths on german highways is not less than on us ones because of no speed limit (btw, over 50% of German autobahn has limits of under 120kph). But rather because Germans actually follow driving laws. If you would try no speed limit in all of the us accidents would rise, not fall! Idiots would pass on the right driving 100mph. That itself would cause a huge rise in accidents.

Agreed. Where there is no speed limit, everyone drives what they are comfortable with. However, in the spots that there IS a limit, everyone drives exactly the limit. Slower traffic keeps right, etc. Much more civilized driving there then in USA/Canada

[kristin]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Sorry to break it to you, but deaths on german highways is not less than on us ones because of no speed limit (btw, over 50% of German autobahn has limits of under 120kph). But rather because Germans actually follow driving laws. If you would try no speed limit in all of the us accidents would rise, not fall! Idiots would pass on the right driving 100mph. That itself would cause a huge rise in accidents.

I watched a documentary about the autobahn and German drivers... Very interesting. Unlike Americans, they don't talk on their cell phone while fiddling with the radio in between sips of Starbucks. They take driving seriously and avoid distractions to follow the laws.

[cherrylula]

Originally Posted by kristin

I watched a documentary about the autobahn and German drivers... Very interesting. Unlike Americans, they don't talk on their cell phone while fiddling with the radio in between sips of Starbucks. They take driving seriously and avoid distractions to follow the laws.

I swear, I was in a car with my younger sister driving once on a Southern California freeway, and she started to put on fucking mascara!!! while she was driving!! I freaked out on her.

She's been in like 10 car accidents, or something like that. Gee, I wonder why. lol

[cherrylula]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Wow we almost posted the same ideas at the same time

Yeah my Grandfather who was from France, always talked about having to drive a stick on an uphill slope, some big vehicle too and you had to accelerate and not roll backwards. Something like that.

In USA, we have terrible drivers no doubt.

[MaDalton]

i have been driving about 2000 kilometer last week, 2/3 of that on german autobahn. when it's not limited i do around 220-230 kph - because it's legal and because i can. and not once there was a "dangerous" situation.

but after driving in the US and seeing how people drive and what they do while driving i think you should keep your speed limits ;)

[kristin]

Originally Posted by cherrylula

I swear, I was in a car with my younger sister driving once on a Southern California freeway, and she started to put on fucking mascara!!! while she was driving!! I freaked out on her.

She's been in like 10 car accidents, or something like that. Gee, I wonder why. lol

I think everyone should have to retake their driving test every 5-10 years or something. I also believe the driving age should be raised to 18. Too many young, inexperienced kids and too many old people. Mix that with minivan moms and you're on the road with some crazy drivers. Like your sister, lol.

[Barefootsies]

Oh yeah, that's what we need. People texting and driving @ 100 MPH.

Whether on the city or highway, there is not a day that goes by I do not cross at least a dozen people swerving all over the road, or not paying attention while driving. When I pull up along side them and look over.... texting. It doesn't matter if it's on a 4 lane highways over in Detroit going to a concert, or just zipping around town here locally. Same issues regardless.

I think I'll pass on the no speed limits while texting statutes. It's hard enough for them to eat, drink a fowtie, smoke, and swat at a kid in the back seat at the same time.

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

It's hard enough for them to eat, drink a fowtie, smoke, and swat at a kid in the back seat at the same time.

This is probably the issue this whole discussion revolves around. These are the people who need to be aggressively cited for distracted driving. Realistically they shouldn't even have licenses. The system we currently rely on has obviously failed us.

They need to go through intense remedial training, and the requirements for driving need to be raised considerably.

Really what I'd like to see is that everyone is required to pass a driving test for vehicles in every performance category, so they have a vivid, crystal clear understanding of the safety involved on the road. Firstly, drive a Ferrari at the limits. Know the limits they're capable of. Handling limits, braking limits. They need to understand that when one of these vehicles passes them while driving their Honda Odyssey with 12 kids crammed in the back, with their passive-aggressive "Baby On Board!" sign clipped in the rear window, they're not "putting their families at risk" by passing at a rapid speed. I bet they'll be much more inclined to practice lane courtesy when they know what that guy in the Ferrari is capable of doing.

Then they'll be required to drive an economy car at the limits. And then a motorcycle. The better you can put yourself in the shoes of the other person on the road, the better you can anticipate their actions, and respect them, without getting your panties in a wad.

I want people to have an amazing understanding of how quickly you're able to take a turn, without being fearful of losing control of your car. Here in the Bay Area, when I'm turning left at a major intersection... It's not an uncommon occurrence for the person in front of me to be going less than 5mph through the intersection when our light turns green. It's like they're literally afraid of their car. They are so fearful of exceeding the performance threshold of their vehicles turning capabilities, they create MAJOR congestion by doing things just like this.

People have zero concept of what it means to drive efficiently. We need an aggressive training program in place that requires people understand what it means to be an effective driver, before they're issued licenses.

[fogfever]

no speed limit would be fun.
lots of rednecks and douchebags would supercharge their cars to drive 200.
lots of drag racing....
you think this would make roads safer?

[xenigo]

Originally Posted by fogfever

no speed limit would be fun.
lots of rednecks and douchebags would supercharge their cars to drive 200.
lots of drag racing....
you think this would make roads safer?

Making drugs legal would be fun. We'd all shoot heroine all day long. I'd finally try the black tar heroine that I've always wanted to use. I'd share needles with you. We'd snort cocaine until our hearts stopped. Maybe we'd play with guns, and violently beat our wives with baseball bats. Then we'd go on killing rampages. You know, for sport.

Would that make society safer?

[Jakez]

Originally Posted by shimmy2

speed limits are not enforced here and i only see accidents in bad weather. it was far more dangerous in cali/florida with a train of cars standing on their brakes when they spot a trooper sleeping in the median.

Exactly man! I swear, in florida at least, people seeing a cop are the #1 cause of accidents. It's the old people that are already doing 5mph under the limit and slam on their brakes at the sight of a cop.

[Poindexterity]

Originally Posted by xenigo

Laws are supposed to be about enforcing safety, not about revenue generation.

well at least theres a few of us who believe this.