For An Industry Being Destroyed By 'File Sharing,' Film Industry Keeps Reporting Record Numbers

[gideongallery]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...01310306.shtml

http://www.ukfilmcouncil.org.uk/vitalstats

[fris]

because people would rather will goto the movies, better experience.

[iamtam]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...01310306.shtml

http://www.ukfilmcouncil.org.uk/vitalstats

god you are an idiot.

count home many movies were released. look at average ticket price. look a the trend over 10 years. ticket prices are up thanks to 3d, ticket sales are way down, and the records arent records when you adjust to current day income.

go away you fucking stupid surfer.

[L-Pink]

So theft is ok if the entity being ripped off is profitable? Well, that means you have nothing to worry about ..... lol .....

[gideongallery]

god you are an idiot.

count home many movies were released.

?More films are being released, up over 30% in the last decade

look at average ticket price. look a the trend over 10 years. ticket prices are up thanks to 3d,

gasp they had to innovate to raise prices

oh my god what has the world come too, you can't make money selling the old tired outdated technology

?UK box office takings at record levels, with growth of over 60% over 10 years

ticket sales are way down, and the records arent records when you adjust to current day income.

go away you fucking stupid surfer.

?Independent films are performing quite well, taking in nearly half the revenue of major studio films

So theft is ok if the entity being ripped off is profitable? Well, that means you have nothing to worry about ..... lol .....

it not weather they are profitiable or not

it the direction in which profitability is going (up or down)

?They have had a 500% return on their investments in film

which is way up from 10 years ago.

[baddog]

?More films are being released, up over 30% in the last decade



?They have had a 500% return on their investments in film

which is way up from 10 years ago.

So, they make more movies, so they can make more money which means it is okay to steal from them. Interesting logic.

[BlackCrayon]

i bet the dvd/blu-ray market is not as nice. you want to see new released movies, hit the theatres but when they come out on dvd, people just download instead.

[Odin]

I download a lot. I also go to the movies a hell of a lot. If netflix or similar was available in Australia I'd signup in an instance and my downloads would be cut in half. Piracy isn't the issue.

[Cherry7]

I rent the Blu ray from Love Film and buy lots of DVDs, I cannot be bothered to tie up my computer downloading sub standard files, I have a life and not a cheap skate.

[CrkMStanz]

Walmart profits are up - shoplifting should be legal

Oil companies reap record windfalls - start gassing up and just drive away if you want

Banks are raking it in - so robbing banks really shouldn't be a problem for them should it?

World population is growing - so head out on a murder spree now!!

this list could go on forever



giddyboy - your logic is specious at best



If the recording industry, movie studios, porn, software, gaming industries can make even MORE money than they do conducting the businesses that they do - then fuck YA, they should be totally able to - If piracy is cutting in to that EVEN IF THEY ARE ALREADY MAKING MONEY - then piracy should be mede a criminal offense and the asshats like you should go to jail.

piracy/filesharing/counterfeitting is NOT fair use
publically posting someone elses full works, and profiting from advertising is NOT fair use
putting your 'backups' in a "free-access to the whole world" position is NOT fair use




fuck - why do i even bother



.

[gideongallery]

So, they make more movies, so they can make more money which means it is okay to steal from them. Interesting logic.

no it means we don't need to make new special laws that stop all over civil rights of people to "protect" the industry

it doesn't need protection because it not being damaged.

technology solutions like 3d movies work better because they actually give people a REASON to go to the theater.

[baddog]

no it means we don't need to make new special laws that stop all over civil rights of people to "protect" the industry

it doesn't need protection because it not being damaged.

technology solutions like 3d movies work better because they actually give people a REASON to go to the theater.

Your logic is extremely flawed. Anyone that can justify theft just because the victim can afford it is fucked up.

[gideongallery]

Walmart profits are up - shoplifting should be legal

Oil companies reap record windfalls - start gassing up and just drive away if you want

Banks are raking it in - so robbing banks really shouldn't be a problem for them should it?

World population is growing - so head out on a murder spree now!!

this list could go on forever



giddyboy - your logic is specious at best

i love this arguement

the movie industry is arguing we need new laws to deal with piracy BECAUSE it killing the industry

the facts prove it not doing damage at all.

i never said it justifed stealing/piracy just refuting the bogus logical statement

we don't need new laws

piracy is probable not growing at all ( it just moved from invisible behind the scenes to a publically countable )

so we don't need to change the laws in any way

they work just fine. If you respect fair use.

If the recording industry, movie studios, porn, software, gaming industries can make even MORE money than they do conducting the businesses that they do - then fuck YA, they should be totally able to - If piracy is cutting in to that EVEN IF THEY ARE ALREADY MAKING MONEY - then piracy should be mede a criminal offense and the asshats like you should go to jail.

but what if piracy is actually dropping it just appears to going up because it move from the invisible behind the scene to a publically and counted medium.


what if all the people torrenting tv shows are just the same people who borrowed cassettes from their neighbours.

you could count the latter, you can count the former, but the number is exactly the same

why use the fact that you can count it as a justification to take way the right from the new technology.

piracy/filesharing/counterfeitting is NOT fair use
publically posting someone elses full work is NOT fair use
putting your 'backups' in a "free-access to the whole world" position is NOT fair use

you seriously need to read the case law that established the fair use

you need to read the congressional debates when the MPAA was begging for new laws to stop the death of the industry if this unfair "fair use" was allowed to continue.

these arguement were already addressed, and ruled against your side

your trying to reverse the right already defined by the previous battle.


that the main reason why i believe the penalty for abusing fair use (like making an arguement you already lost 24 years ago)

should have the penalty of stripping you of your copyright

copyright holders would not try this bullshit if they knew it would cost them their copyright.

fuck - why do i even bother



.

because you still haven't figuired out that i am right

[gideongallery]

Your logic is extremely flawed. Anyone that can justify theft just because the victim can afford it is fucked up.

but that not what i am justifying and you know it

i defend the rights granted by the 24 year old betamax case

the "abuses" which the MPAA complained about but were recognized to not be "abuses"
(like making a commercial free copy for the collection, sharing the tape with friends, etc)

that are currently again being used as a justification to stop the new version of timeshifting (torrent based)

the network effect combines 3 fair use together to give me way more functionality

i was granted those rights in the past, i don't want them taken away based on a bald face lie.

figuire out a way to stop the "piracy" without taking away my rights and i will support

hell that what i teach people every single month

[BlackCrayon]

i love this arguement

the movie industry is arguing we need new laws to deal with piracy BECAUSE it killing the industry

the facts prove it not doing damage at all.

i never said it justifed stealing/piracy just refuting the bogus logical statement

we don't need new laws

piracy is probable not growing at all ( it just moved from invisible behind the scenes to a publically countable )

so we don't need to change the laws in any way

they work just fine. If you respect fair use.

Piracy has definitely grown. To think it hasn't is just being ignorant. Sure warez sites have always existed but before broadband was popular movies were almost never downloaded or uploaded beacause of the time and cost involved. there were no torrent sites but even worse than tha now are the file locker sites, making it easy for any idiot, even if they are too stupid/lazy to set up torrents to download, they can sure as hell download from megaupload/mediafire/fileserve, etc.

technology would be a better way to kill piracy but when they keep coming out with new ways to pirate movies/music, it makes it a difficult cat and mouse game.

but what if piracy is actually dropping it just appears to going up because it move from the invisible behind the scene to a publically and counted medium.


what if all the people torrenting tv shows are just the same people who borrowed cassettes from their neighbours.

you could count the latter, you can count the former, but the number is exactly the same

why use the fact that you can count it as a justification to take way the right from the new technology.

the number is the same as what? there is a huge difference between lending tapes to your friends or even burning copies of dvd's and blu-ray vs uploading it to a public medium where anyone with an internet connection has the ability to download it. i highly doubt those friends were lending their tapes to over 100,000 others who are able to keep them forever.

you seriously need to read the case law that established the fair use

I have no problems with people burning a couple copies for friends but when you upload to the internet, fair use goes out the window.

[gideongallery]

Piracy has definitely grown. To think it hasn't is just being ignorant. Sure warez sites have always existed but before broadband was popular movies were almost never downloaded or uploaded beacause of the time and cost involved. there were no torrent sites but even worse than tha now are the file locker sites, making it easy for any idiot, even if they are too stupid/lazy to set up torrents to download, they can sure as hell download from megaupload/mediafire/fileserve, etc.

technology would be a better way to kill piracy but when they keep coming out with new ways to pirate movies/music, it makes it a difficult cat and mouse game.


the number is the same as what? there is a huge difference between lending tapes to your friends or even burning copies of dvd's and blu-ray vs uploading it to a public medium where anyone with an internet connection has the ability to download it. i highly doubt those friends were lending their tapes to over 100,000 others who are able to keep them forever.

if 10 million people lend their tape cassette to 3 people that the same as one person seeding a torrent to 30 million people

the difference is first is uncountable, the second can be counted

that what i am talking about when i say piracy going from invisible to visible

when i say piracy hasn't changed in quantity that what i am talking about

i would bet this type of piracy has dropped, i remember when i borrowed tapes from friends

i got the show i wanted, plus 3-4 shows i never asked for because they were bundled on the same vcr tape.

now i download only the show i actually want.

I have no problems with people burning a couple copies for friends but when you upload to the internet, fair use goes out the window.

that's crap that basically saying that fair use doesn't have a right to the network effect

technologically we must always have an inferior solution for our fair use.

[BlackCrayon]

if 10 million people lend their tape cassette to 3 people that the same as one person seeding a torrent to 30 million people

the difference is first is uncountable, the second can be counted

that what i am talking about when i say piracy going from invisible to visible

when i say piracy hasn't changed in quantity that what i am talking about

i would bet this type of piracy has dropped, i remember when i borrowed tapes from friends

i got the show i wanted, plus 3-4 shows i never asked for because they were bundled on the same vcr tape.

now i download only the show i actually want.




that's crap that basically saying that fair use doesn't have a right to the network effect

technologically we must always have an inferior solution for our fair use.

one major difference between lending tapes and downloading is that you have to give the tape back when you are done watching it. i doubt you are old enough to remember what it was like. you couldn't even copy tape to tape as the majority had some kind of filter that would make the copied tape look like crap.

people were careful about who they would lend their tapes to as they would often come back damaged, there are no such worries when uploading. even using your example, sure it sounds decent but fact is anyone out there can download 100 movies tonight if they wanted to, no calling friends, finding who has the tape, getting the tape, etc. its all just instant, search, click, download. its not just the same.

i just can't see fair use in uploading to the internet unless the only people who have access to what you have uploaded are your actual friends who might benefit regardless from something you bought but instead you are giving every single person on earth with an internet connection the ability to possibly download what you have uploaded, which goes far beyond fair use.

[gideongallery]

one major difference between lending tapes and downloading is that you have to give the tape back when you are done watching it. i doubt you are old enough to remember what it was like. you couldn't even copy tape to tape as the majority had some kind of filter that would make the copied tape look like crap.

people who use the torrents as vcr don't keep the copy after they watch why would they

they can always get it back just by reconnecting to the swarm.

the transient nature is still the same

people were careful about who they would lend their tapes to as they would often come back damaged, there are no such worries when uploading. even using your example, sure it sounds decent but fact is anyone out there can download 100 movies tonight if they wanted to, no calling friends, finding who has the tape, getting the tape, etc. its all just instant, search, click, download. its not just the same.

you just proved my point about superior timeshifting technology

take the doctor who mid season finale

river song just announced that she was amy pond daughter

the big reveal had all kinds of hints in the previous episodes ( the only water in the forrest is the river)

so what did i do, reconnect to the swarm to download all the old river song episodes

to see if there were any other "spoilers"

once i am done watching them i will delete them again.

why waste my storage space when the swarm let me recover that content any time i want for free.

i just can't see fair use in uploading to the internet unless the only people who have access to what you have uploaded are your actual friends who might benefit regardless from something you bought but instead you are giving every single person on earth with an internet connection the ability to possibly download what you have uploaded, which goes far beyond fair use.

again you proved my point, your trying to hamstring the technology to the flaws of the old system

even when that results in less "piracy"

i have gone from taking 1 show i want an 3-4 that i didn't (because they were bundled on the same tape)

to now only taking the show i want

the only difference between the two is that you can now count my "timeshifting"

in fact you count me multiple times (see doctor who example above)

[BlackCrayon]

people who use the torrents as vcr don't keep the copy after they watch why would they

they can always get it back just by reconnecting to the swarm.

the transient nature is still the same




you just proved my point about superior timeshifting technology

take the doctor who mid season finale

river song just announced that she was amy pond daughter

the big reveal had all kinds of hints in the previous episodes ( the only water in the forrest is the river)

so what did i do, reconnect to the swarm to download all the old river song episodes

to see if there were any other "spoilers"

once i am done watching them i will delete them again.

why waste my storage space when the swarm let me recover that content any time i want for free.



again you proved my point, your trying to hamstring the technology to the flaws of the old system

even when that results in less "piracy"

i have gone from taking 1 show i want an 3-4 that i didn't (because they were bundled on the same tape)

to now only taking the show i want

the only difference between the two is that you can now count my "timeshifting"

in fact you count me multiple times (see doctor who example above)

well all of that assumes that downloaders have some kind of ethics, which most don't. i have friends who have dozens of spindels full of downloaded dvd's. i have friends who haven't bought a dvd or rented one in years, not to mention never buying cds in even longer. why would anyone buy anything when they can download it for free? if only a small % download, then who cares but it seems be an ever growing trend. i have less of an issue with television shows, as dvr'ing a tv show is basically the same as downloading one but when it comes to movies and music, there is no doubt revenue is being lost.

[gideongallery]

well all of that assumes that downloaders have some kind of ethics, which most don't. i have friends who have dozens of spindels full of downloaded dvd's. i have friends who haven't bought a dvd or rented one in years, not to mention never buying cds in even longer. why would anyone buy anything when they can download it for free?

so why haven't you turned in those "theives" yet

it amazing your actually trying to justify taking away the rights to use the technology legitimately from me

because friends your letting get away with piracy are unethical

if only a small % download, then who cares but it seems be an ever growing trend. i have less of an issue with television shows, as dvr'ing a tv show is basically the same as downloading one but when it comes to movies and music, there is no doubt revenue is being lost.

seriously i just produced stats that prove revenue is not going down for movies

and you still claim there is no doubt revenue is being lost.


the numbers i have presented are a doubt

the bundling principle for vcr tapes would apply to cd/dvd too

i remember borrowed cd having tons of songs i wasn't interested in too

the same with back up dvd, especially when avi ripping came around
a single dvd had 4-5 movies on it.

even though i never asked to shit i didn't have a right to, this bundling forced me to take stuff i didn't want/have right too.

that problem is now gone.

[BlackCrayon]

so why haven't you turned in those "theives" yet

it amazing your actually trying to justify taking away the rights to use the technology legitimately from me

because friends your letting get away with piracy are unethical



seriously i just produced stats that prove revenue is not going down for movies

and you still claim there is no doubt revenue is being lost.


the numbers i have presented are a doubt

the bundling principle for vcr tapes would apply to cd/dvd too

i remember borrowed cd having tons of songs i wasn't interested in too

the same with back up dvd, especially when avi ripping came around
a single dvd had 4-5 movies on it.

even though i never asked to shit i didn't have a right to, this bundling forced me to take stuff i didn't want/have right too.

that problem is now gone.

whatever gets you through the night. lets see some numbers on cds and dvd sales. and lets see some numbers proving your example remains the same, that if 10 million people lending a tape to three friends = 30 mill downloads on a torrent...in order for it to be the same or even similar 10 million of those leechers would need to of purchased a real dvd/cd/whatever, which is obviously not the case.

[SwirlsGirl]

for an industry being decimated by file sharing.... there still seems to be plenty of clicks to join pages of paysites.... logic tells me that in order for there to be a decimation of sales...

there should also be a decimation of join form/ join page hits

[gideongallery]

whatever gets you through the night. lets see some numbers on cds and dvd sales. and lets see some numbers proving your example remains the same, that if 10 million people lending a tape to three friends = 30 mill downloads on a torrent...in order for it to be the same or even similar 10 million of those leechers would need to of purchased a real dvd/cd/whatever, which is obviously not the case.

since we are talking about tv shows in my 30 million example that not hard to prove

viewership numbers clearly establish that shows do have those numbers world wide.

[gideongallery]

whatever gets you through the night. lets see some numbers on cds and dvd sales. and lets see some numbers proving your example remains the same, that if 10 million people lending a tape to three friends = 30 mill downloads on a torrent...in order for it to be the same or even similar 10 million of those leechers would need to of purchased a real dvd/cd/whatever, which is obviously not the case.

btw your the one who making the arguement that enviroment has changed, and there a lot more piracy which justify the changes in the law

so maybe you need to produce some proof that the enviroment has actually changed.

it only fair especially when you choose to cover up your friends "piracy" rather then report it.

[lyno]

Just a other point of view:
Next week i will have visitors from germany. Last Friday i remembered that i wanted to
show them a movie i'm sure they will love (Wasabi) but it was to late to order it snail mail.
But hey, that's the internet age. I simply buy and download it online.

The first german shops i tried had none of the movies i was looking for. Finally i found one
but: Only customers from Germany, Austria and Swiss are accepted. After some cursing i
decided to take a look at US shops. Great! almost every movie i was looking for was
available.... but then i tried to register.

Sorry.. bla bla... USA only - No cookies for you
Next shop:
Service not available for your country - No cookies for you
Next shop
D'oh blubber D'oh - No cookies for you

I just wonder, getting that movie "for free" with torrent or from rapidshare alikes would be
fast and easy. Are notorious file sharers not causing enough trouble so they have to piss of
those who are willing to pay? Maybe there is simply something wrong with their outdated
business model?

Fortunately the software industry is not that fucked up. For years a bought any prog i
needed online without any problem.

[BlackCrayon]

since we are talking about tv shows in my 30 million example that not hard to prove

viewership numbers clearly establish that shows do have those numbers world wide.

so then you must agree that fair use applies more to tv shows than movies or music? because otherwise, using your example for movies or cds shows that there would be 30 million downloaders and one person with the oringinal rather than 10 million with the original and 20 million downloaders.

[BlackCrayon]

btw your the one who making the arguement that enviroment has changed, and there a lot more piracy which justify the changes in the law

so maybe you need to produce some proof that the enviroment has actually changed.

it only fair especially when you choose to cover up your friends "piracy" rather then report it.

is there really need to prove that? its obvious that content went from a phsyical medium to a digital one where unlimited copies can be created with the same quality, unlike tapes where quality is degrated in every generation.

[gideongallery]

so then you must agree that fair use applies more to tv shows than movies or music? because otherwise, using your example for movies or cds shows that there would be 30 million downloaders and one person with the oringinal rather than 10 million with the original and 20 million downloaders.

fair use is bound to all copyright equally there is not fair use for tv show vs movies

My Example

was bound to tv shows

the number would be smaller in other examples


however as i pointed out tv shows are 53% of all torrent traffic

music and movies don't even get out of the teens so obviously their numbers are going to be much smaller

they were also much smaller in the old hidden piracy too.

[gideongallery]

is there really need to prove that? its obvious that content went from a phsyical medium to a digital one where unlimited copies can be created with the same quality, unlike tapes where quality is degrated in every generation.

you borrowed the master in the hidden piracy version

it was just as perfect a copy because it WAS the original

that the point the torrent only CONNECTS all those viewings.

if 10k people borrowed and played the tape

that the exact same number of people who downloaded a copy watched and then deleted it because they know they don't have to waste their space storing it.


the effect is exactly the same in both cases

you can simple count the latter

[L-Pink]

gideon you are a cheap tool.

[gideongallery]

gideon you are a cheap tool.

like i have pointed out until you decide to double your cost on everything you buy and send me the money (for proof purposes)

your just as cheap as i am

i am simply arguing to not pay TWICE for content i already bought.

[iamtam]

?More films are being released, up over 30% in the last decade



gasp they had to innovate to raise prices

oh my god what has the world come too, you can't make money selling the old tired outdated technology

?UK box office takings at record levels, with growth of over 60% over 10 years




?Independent films are performing quite well, taking in nearly half the revenue of major studio films




it not weather they are profitiable or not

it the direction in which profitability is going (up or down)

?They have had a 500% return on their investments in film

which is way up from 10 years ago.

you are truly an idiot. i pointed you right at the meat of the problem, and you ignored it completely. proof that you are a freetard.

30% more films, barely more income, less screens, less run time, less income per movie average. more movies that dont even break even.

taking uk numbers but ignoring all other markets is just sneaky shit.

please provide a link for your insane 500% return on investment claims. that is pure torrent freak bullshit.

[gideongallery]

you are truly an idiot. i pointed you right at the meat of the problem, and you ignored it completely. proof that you are a freetard.

30% more films, barely more income, less screens, less run time, less income per movie average. more movies that dont even break even.

taking uk numbers but ignoring all other markets is just sneaky shit.

please provide a link for your insane 500% return on investment claims. that is pure torrent freak bullshit.

more competition is a good thing

better movies get money

lower budget, independent films are making more money so the average roi is increasing.