Az shooter's obsession with "grammar" may be a Sovereign Citizen connection - GoFuckYourself.com

Bill8 · 01-10-2011, 02:19 PM

Boing Boing has a piece today about grammar and teh Sovereign Citizen movement, and a possible Jared Loughner connection - worth taking a look at:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/10...overnment.html

Quote:

David Wynn Miller, the anti-government activist whose Time Cube-like views on grammar may have caught the fancy of Tucson shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner (see previous Boing Boing pieces on Loughner's social media presence by Sean and produced videos by Xeni). Miller travels the country advising people in the Sovereign Citizen anti-tax movement that they can fight in court by using a special grammar he created in 1988. It basically comes down to a belief that how one renders one's name with punctuation and how one uses grammar can alter one's legal status as a person. In other words, DAVID WYNN MILLER (as on his birth certificate) can be taxed, but :David-Wynn: Miller cannot, because that is not legally a person. In addition to unsuccessfully assisting people accused of tax evasion, Miller has also unsuccessfully assisted people convicted of abusing children, including a woman in Hawaii who broke the teeth out of her nieces' and nephews' mouths with a hammer. She claimed her conviction was invalid because her sovereignty group, Hawaiian Kingdom Government, said she did nothing wrong. Miller was spokesperson for the group and has claimed he is King of Hawaii. Miller says people don't need to pay taxes if they can "prove that money is a verb," and he offers seminars around the country on how to use his language to defend against criminal charges. Regardless of any connection with Loughner, these anti-government grammar people are, just... wow. I need to go lie down now.

the wiki on Miller http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller

don't know if it's a true connection, but if it is, we could be hearing a whole lot more about Soveriegnity soon.

and if the shooter is a conspiracy devotee, we could be hearing a lot of criticism of conspiracy websites soon.

Agent 488 · 01-10-2011, 02:30 PM

the shooter is garden variety conspiracy theorist.

no real tea bag/palin/beck/limbaugh connections, but he appears to lean right because 85% of conspiracy theories lean right or have a basis in old bircher/populist/anti-semetic conspiracies.

the search to find the influence on this kids world view is kind of lame and fruitless, more or less a search for evidence to be used in finger-pointing and point-scoring.

his world view seems kind of homespun and pulled from a variety of sources, the kind of shit one would come up with after smoking tons of dope, reading first year university texts and youtube conspiracy videos.

Bill8 · 01-10-2011, 02:30 PM

From a recent article on msnbc:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40996934...me_and_courts/

Quote:

At an event roughly three years ago, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords took a question from Jared Loughner, the man accused of trying to assassinate her and killing six other people.

According to two of his high school friends, the question was basically this: "What is government if words have no meaning?"

Loughner, who allegedly shot Giffords and 19 other people Saturday, killing six, was angry about her response ? she read the question but didn't have much to say.

"He was like ... 'What do you think of these people who are working for the government and they can't describe what they do?'" one friend told The Associated Press on Sunday.

"He did not like government officials, how they spoke. Like they were just trying to cover up some conspiracy," the friend added.

Agent 488 · 01-10-2011, 02:31 PM

the wynn-miller connection is pretty weak as well.

TheDoc · 01-10-2011, 02:40 PM

I watched that nut cases videos on Youtube.

He doesn't appear write in the truth language, ie: what David Miller uses. The truth language has a very solid sentence structure and everything is defined, it's not really hard to follow it.

Here's a sample from a legal document on dwmlc.com
"FOR THE CLAIM OF THE LIVE-LIFE IS WITHTHE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CLAIMANT."

It's overly proper... which is probably the best way to explain it. Which isn't anything like what was written on the Youtube videos.

Bill8 · 01-10-2011, 02:42 PM

he graduated from garden-variety when he started pulling the trigger. which i expect was his goal.

i had noted his use of the term "grammar" in the videos - and thought it was odd. he was using the term similarly to, but not the same as, a semantician would use it.

i think we will see a Sovereign Citizen Movement connection, but, i'm just speculating.

it's the nature of rhetoric, which is the "language of persuasion", to affect the mind. in this case, it looks as if violent rhetoric persuaded a weak mind that violence was the path to take to combat government "conspiracy".

there are many - many - weak minds in this country.

dyna mo · 01-10-2011, 02:45 PM

he reminds me of some of the gfy conspiracy nuts- completely confused and overwhelmed by current events.

Bill8 · 01-10-2011, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDoc

He doesn't appear write in the truth language, ie: what David Miller uses. The truth language has a very solid sentence structure and everything is defined, it's not really hard to follow it.

well, it's a principle of general semantics that grammar, sentence structure, and language structures influance and shape the individuals experience and mental models of the world.

i agree it doesn't look like this kid was a miller follower, but he wouldn't have to imitate his language to adopt some sort of mixed theory of "political grammar".

and miller isn't the only person who is making Sovereign arguments about names, grammar, language, and the constitution. at least that's my impression, i'm not an expert on sovereign theory by any means.

sovereignity is kind of an attractive theory, i can understand why some people like it, even tho it's ultimately nonsense.

TheDoc · 01-10-2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

i think we will see a Sovereign Citizen Movement connection, but, i'm just speculating.

Oh I'm sure....

I think most fail to realize the Judge can do whatever the heck the Judge wants.

TheDoc · 01-10-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

well, it's a principle of general semantics that grammar, sentence structure, and language structures influance and shape the individuals experience and mental models of the world.

i agree it doesn't look like this kid was a miller follower, but he wouldn't have to imitate his language to adopt some sort of mixed theory of "political grammar".

and miller isn't the only person who is making Sovereign arguments about names, grammar, language, and the constitution. at least that's my impression, i'm not an expert on sovereign theory by any means.

sovereignity is kind of an attractive theory, i can understand why some people like it, even tho it's ultimately nonsense.

I've only read a little about it... It doesn't attract me because I wouldn't want to live that life style, just to see if it's true.

I guess it's hard for me to wrap my head around a person going crazy over grammar, lang, or related to the gov with grammar, or whatever. Not saying that isn't the case, he for sure had some issue with it - it's just hard to contemplate that craziness.

Agent 488 · 01-10-2011, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill8

he graduated from garden-variety when he started pulling the trigger. which i expect was his goal.

i had noted his use of the term "grammar" in the videos - and thought it was odd. he was using the term similarly to, but not the same as, a semantician would use it.

i think we will see a Sovereign Citizen Movement connection, but, i'm just speculating.

it's the nature of rhetoric, which is the "language of persuasion", to affect the mind. in this case, it looks as if violent rhetoric persuaded a weak mind that violence was the path to take to combat government "conspiracy".

there are many - many - weak minds in this country.

his world view is garden variety. a little unique, but can be found espoused by thousands on youtube and conspiracy forums.

there will be no sovereign citizen connection, aside from maybe him watching a few videos along with moon conspiracy videos.

if palin/beck/tea bags did not exist this kid would have done the same thing.

people deep into conspiracy don't follow beck/palin/replublicans - they seen then as part of the conspiracy as well. most conspiracists see the tea bags as controlled opposition, a tool of the controllers.

but like i said, facts will be ignored and everyone is going to use this mentally ill kid and the crippled and dead victims as a football to score points against their political party sports team opponents.

01-10-2011, 02:40 PM	#5
TheDoc Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Currently Incognito Posts: 13,827	I watched that nut cases videos on Youtube. He doesn't appear write in the truth language, ie: what David Miller uses. The truth language has a very solid sentence structure and everything is defined, it's not really hard to follow it. Here's a sample from a legal document on dwmlc.com "FOR THE CLAIM OF THE LIVE-LIFE IS WITHTHE KNOWLEDGE OF THIS CLAIMANT." It's overly proper... which is probably the best way to explain it. Which isn't anything like what was written on the Youtube videos. __________________ ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825 It's all disambiguation

01-10-2011, 02:30 PM	#2
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	the shooter is garden variety conspiracy theorist. no real tea bag/palin/beck/limbaugh connections, but he appears to lean right because 85% of conspiracy theories lean right or have a basis in old bircher/populist/anti-semetic conspiracies. the search to find the influence on this kids world view is kind of lame and fruitless, more or less a search for evidence to be used in finger-pointing and point-scoring. his world view seems kind of homespun and pulled from a variety of sources, the kind of shit one would come up with after smoking tons of dope, reading first year university texts and youtube conspiracy videos.

01-10-2011, 02:31 PM	#4
Agent 488 Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 22,511	the wynn-miller connection is pretty weak as well.

01-10-2011, 02:42 PM	#6
Bill8 Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,901	he graduated from garden-variety when he started pulling the trigger. which i expect was his goal. i had noted his use of the term "grammar" in the videos - and thought it was odd. he was using the term similarly to, but not the same as, a semantician would use it. i think we will see a Sovereign Citizen Movement connection, but, i'm just speculating. it's the nature of rhetoric, which is the "language of persuasion", to affect the mind. in this case, it looks as if violent rhetoric persuaded a weak mind that violence was the path to take to combat government "conspiracy". there are many - many - weak minds in this country.

01-10-2011, 02:45 PM	#7
dyna mo The People's Post Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: invisible 7-11 Posts: 65,015	he reminds me of some of the gfy conspiracy nuts- completely confused and overwhelmed by current events.