CNN: Bush begs & whines for Putin to not supply nuclear fuel to Iran. Putin says:

You are a liar. I do not tolerate liars and fools...you are now dismissed.

Bush? Who is that?

No, people do not want the US to be where it is. That applies to almost all countries on the planet - they prefer to see the US run the US and stay the fuck home.

Why do you think there are problems in Iraq, Iran, South America, - sure, it's because they people "want" the US there. That's why they chucked em out over stealing water in the posts above. They just love em to be there! :-)

Never assume for one blink of an eye that "american government" has anything to offer any western country. Most countries already have much more experience in "government" and stabilty learned from centuries of past problems. They don't need a "lecture" or any learning process. That is the problem of US citizens - not the concern of others.

If you are now claiming that you did not come up with a "solution" to nuke the fuck out of people in Asian because it was in the best interests of the US - you are either a liar or have a very deficient memory in addition to your other mental problems.

Now.. stand at attention while I dismiss you . Stand up straight!! Dismissed!



PS.. What's this military bullshit you come out with - living past dreams? What rank was that decades ago?? Get a real life.

Haha, there's no sense trying to talk sense into guys like websiex. Russia won ww2 hands down. I suppose we have Hitler's obsession of Stalingrad to thank for that one, though.

Who fuckin cares what you tolerate?
you chode.

This'll be the last posting of the night for me. I have a bit more work to do and then a bed to rediscover. Intelligent responses will have to wait for a reply until tomorrow or the next day, unintelligent responses can have a reply right now:

Arbitrary definitions of "east" and "west" are no longer valid, if they ever were. The world is re-organizing itself before our very eyes: The european union strengthens despite the nattering nabobs dismissal of 'old europe'. China is starting to make its power felt, finally starting to shake off some of its cultural humility when it comes to things like empire and recognizing the need to lay claim to resources now to further development. The free(er) asian pacific countries are turning into engines of development and growth that have the potential to be world-leading. South and central american people entertain the idea of becoming an economic union... and of course the resurgence of arab nationalism and dreams of the calliphate restored.

Which one of these, then, would be the 'east' vs. your 'west'?

This is the xenophobic strain that grates against other peoples of the world. Us vs. Them. Keep the 'west pure'. It's utter rubbish, as the 'west' has never been pure from 'eastern' influence (nor the reverse) since Marco Polo unfurled his sails. You're in a global economy, with a global population. All the world is your neighbor now, 'different' or no.

I may not be as widely travelled as some, but I've been to enough places to know that people are all still only human and the same basic requirements for survival and living have to be met. The similarities are more present than the differences, but the differences get played up by those who would profit from fanning the flames of tension, thence hatred, thence war.

The US may be the source of some thinking from the west, but it hardly counts as the vangaurd of 'western thought', let alone lay claim to same as its progeny. While some remnants of classical western thought may remain, the primary exports in philosophy from the US these days basically revolve around Corpratism and Consumerism, with other elements merely being a prerequisite for a support mechanism to stabilize an area so that the cash grab can begin.

There are of course many aspects of a consumerist lifestyle which appeal to me on a basic level. I'm an ambitious person. I run my own company. I make good money doing it. I like buying toys with the money that I earn, and enjoy the fruits of my labour. However, I cannot in good conscience dismiss the fact that I am contributing in my small way to the opression of others and in so doing see the major flaws in the foundations of that philosophy. The world would be in a very dire state indeed should corporatism ever truly take total control. If anything, considering the hole we're torquing the planet into, there should be LESS consuming going on.

This is one attitude I've never been able to abide. If the ideals that the US professes to hold dear were so attractive, people shouldn't need to be forced into them. Merely setting a decent example would be sufficient for the change to happen spontaneously.

No, this argument is little more than a thin veneer over a foundation of xenophobic racism.


Heh... okay, I suppose history has many different interpretations, as amusing as some of those may be.

It's predictable that people so completely vested in nationalist fervor see even the slightest suggestion of displeasure as 'hate'. While there may be some out there who do genuinely hate america and americans (for concrete reasons, not some bullshit 'they hate our freedom' head-in-the-sand tripe), the vast majority of people really have no problem with americans generally speaking. What they can't stomach is how the (ostensibly) elected bodies operate on the world stage. That has been said many times, by many people, in many ways... if you haven't figured that bit out by now you probably never will, and this missive is an exercise in self-amusement.

Ah, yes, freedom. That thing which Bush thinks there's too much of domestically, and not enough of internationally, dependant on his talking points du jour.

The problem with freedom is that everyone's idea about what it is differs. You may think that the ability to carry a loaded gun around is freedom, whereas I may find the lack of worrying about some psychotic asshat with a weapon gunning me down liberating. 'Freedom' can be such an amorphous, all-encompassing term as to make it meaningless for any serious debate. It all too often devolves into some meaningless 'feel good' jingoistic nonsense tuned to appeal to emotional response and little else. Anyone who's studied history would find more than a few parallels between 'freedom on the march' and 'the white man's burden' of imperial england.

As you appear to be fond of the term though, perhaps you could explain the dichotomy of the country's professed policy of 'spreading freedom' versus the actions of supporting brutal authoritarian regimes (Hussein, Idi Amin, Marcos, Saud, et al). You may find it considerably easier to explain it if you substitute 'spreading freedom' with 'spreading consumerism'.

You might also suggest they take some time to look into the manchurian campaign and its effect on the pacific theatre.

Rick

thats a hellapost.

Yeah, I can only really bust one or two of those out on a given night. Usually they require a fair bit of supporting research and a bit of time to collect thoughts into a cohesive form, and I have a large and full life outside the virtual retard relay race of debating politics online.

Nite y'all.

In respose to rickholio:

While you also seem logical, you are lacking in the reality department. You think the world is one big happy place don't you? Well, it isn't. Right now, we are living in peacetime. You have no worries about life, and everything is running smooth. You are feel good about every nation on the planet, and see them as people who just want live life like everyone else. Sadly, this isn't the truth. There is a dark side of the world.

Throughout history, there have been wars on Earth. If you think that this post-Cold War era will last long, you may be right, but it will only last long if the United States continues down the road it is taking.

It is amusing how you think there are no different philosophies. Kind of sad.

The United States won't let China become a superpower, nor will it let any other asian country, including Russia.

No arab country will ever gain superpower status in our life times, ever. They aren't ready yet.

Modern Western civilization is all we have left. If the west falls, the world is doomed. Please don't say you want and East/West superpower again with another cold war? I bet you like Stalin too, right?

The US isn't forcing anything, we just have to keep an eye on who isn't following our practices.

It is really hard to explain civilization on a messageboard, you kind of have to understand it, and it is hard for some people. You have to think really deep about the subject of idelogy and civilizations, and how fast they can fall and rise. Look at Rome, no one would have ever thought it would fall... THOUSANDS of years in existance, yet the barbarians came in and destroyed it, plunging the world into the Dark Ages.

We don't want another age of darkness and book burning do we? The end of civilization is a very scary thought, because it is very possible.

I don't agree with your philosophy of let the world roll, that is pre-WW2 thought, we have to deal with things now, not just wait for them to happen.

It is a pay now, or pay later policy. If you pay now, you pay less, right? If you pay later, you're going to be paying a lot more for the same outcome, considering you can pay for it at all.

----
Back to the United States:
I truely like seeing the US as a world leader, and I would be heartbroken if Japan or Russia took its position (which will never happen), that is just the way I feel. If it was to happen, I only pray that they are as kind as the United States is.

I can't believe how much effort you are putting into arguing with some brainwashed guy who considers Rush Limbaugh to be the greatest mind of the last 1000 years.

Wow, 20 minutes later and I finished reading this post.
Websiex pull your head out of your fucking ass, I'm not going to hate on America, or Americans. I will however make myself clear, the problem with America today is the completely gun-ho way of life, if someone doesn't believe in the American/Bush ideals then they are delt with.

Are you really this stupid? Who are you to decide whats best for other countries?

---

Also whoever it was that made the statement about the U.S not implementing a full out war with Iraq, implying that it was merely a half-assed attack [or not a full on seige] is a moron. Bush has already put the U.S into it's worst ever debt, and is spending more and more money on this retarded excuse for a war, but you seem happy about it. Bush doesn't care, he's not paying for it out of his own pocket, when tax's in the U.S inevitably rise will you be saying the same thing? Oh it was worth it.. Iraq could of blown the U.S up, yada yada, <insert some crap about freedom here>. Why would you give two shits about liberation in Iraq? It doesn't effect the homeless person on the street who's begging you for money etc.

Annnnnyway, keep in mind these are just opinions and everyone is entilted to one. Even though it's blatently obvious some people should do some research before making retarded claims. [I personally would like to see Japan become a superpower, it would be a lot more fitting to the current technology age]

Russia, China and France all have the power to Veto... how is the US supposed to do anything with the agreement of the UN? Russia is still communist and will sell its soul for money, China wants to invade Taiwan, and France has grand delusions about teaming up with Russia and China to form a "counterweight" againsts the US... the world is fucked.

Japan is the worlds 2nd largest economy and is starting to modernise their armed forces. I also wouldn't be surprised if Japan joins the US in pledging to defend Taiwan. Japan might even get nuclear weopans.

Don't claim to know me. I've endured more than enough hands on experience with the ugly underside of this world, even the comparatively civilized 'west'. If there's someone who's lacking in the reality department in this conversation, it's the one who believes that naked aggression can solve all problems.

See, now I seriously worry that all my effort was wasted when you say silly things like this. Go back and read again. I didn't say that there are no different philosophies, I said that the arbitrary distinction of 'east' vs. 'west' is a useless anachronism when you have dozens of rising powers in the world, each with its own view on how the world should run. Most of those powers already have powerful and fully developed philosophies and schools of thought.

You presume that everyone exerts their influence purely in terms of military strength, which is a very narrow perspective. The chinese are traditionally masters of waging war, and don't doubt for a minute that they're doing it THIS VERY SECOND. Every time the chinese government refuses to unpeg its currency against the USD, every time their banks mull aloud a policy of reducing its greenback debt holdings, they are moving peices and gaining strength.

The US is a latecomer to war as Sun Tzu teaches, and is still very clumsy in its execution. Metaphorically, the majority of tools in the US diplomatic toolkit are hammers... so every problem tends to look like a nail.

Noone thought an ex-convict failed writer with one testicle and a funny 'stache would nearly crntrol the world, either. Never say never, you never know when it'll come and bite you in the ass. Remember, they've been a superpower before.

Hardly. Classical eastern philosophies thrive. Your callous dismissal of them doesn't simply make them disappear, nor your ad hominem attacks as a pitiful attempt to equate me to some sort of "commie worshipper".

The US has meddled in PLENTY of people's sandboxes, ranging from giving massive subsidies to israel, to black-ops takedowns of governments, if not outright assassinations (or botched attempts thereof... castro ring any bells?)

In fact, this statement is in direct contradiction of everything else you've said... that the US *will* enforce its worldview on others, it *will* surpress any other culture, philosophy, movement or state that provides the slightest threat. Far be it for me to prevent you from being self-contradictory, though.

...(continued)...

...(continued from last)...

You know, it looks as though you may have kernels of knowledge somewhere in there, just trying to find the right forms in which to manifest.

Sherman, set the wayback machine....

First off, the roman empire did not last 'thousands of years'. Rome was founded by Romulus and Remus in 753BC, and at the time was nothing more than a city-state, plagued by endless skirmishes with surrounding tribes. The first stirrings of what might be called 'empire' started being built around 350BC and onward with the romans first moving south to secure the italian paeninsula. The romans got their asses kicked hard by Hannibal around 200BC, putting plans for REAL empire on hold for a while. Real empire didn't start until after Hannibal... it reached its apex around 0AD and enjoyed a period of 100 or so years of relative peace (pax romana) before being beset by strife from without and within. Some additional minor expansion took place but in the end even those efforts couldn't maintain cohesion. By 300AD, major chunks had broken off into independant states requiring conquering and reconquering, even with the advent of the holy roman empire and redistricting into smaller, more easily 'handled' diosces. Internescene battles were pretty much a constant happening throughout the empire, draining it of resources until around 450AD when Attila the Hun came and the entire empire collapsed into ruin. So you're looking around around 550 years, perhaps 150 or 200 of it at apex, and 100-ish of that actually knowing something approximating peace (although uprisings were ruthlessly suppressed).

The point of all this being that the barbarians didn't 'destroy' rome. Rome was hollowing itself by internal warfare, Attila just came along and took while the taking was good, gave it a hard whack and it collapsed into itself. If Rome had still retained REAL power at that point, the barbarians may well have been repelled... considering the countless lands' worth of people from which armies could be trained and the extensive logistics supply and road works created to march them. Unfortunately they'd done a good job pissing off the locals from the outer colonies, who basically told rome to go fuck itself after Attila's reign waned.



Good lord child, do you think that civilization died with the roman empire?? A corrupt, apathetic and hollow civilization was beaten down, yes, but in its vacuum rose entirely new powers, including the one which has your panties in a bunch today: The moors. Around 720AD they swept across southern europe, and though they never acquired quite as much land mass as the romans, within a hundred years had built a cultural, scientific and literary artifice that blew away anything europe had to offer. The fact that I can write "720AD" instead of DCCXX is directly thanks to the influence of arabic scholars, along with the modern underpinnings of other major portions of our present mathematic and engineering disciplines. Perhaps you're familiar with words like 'azimuth'.

Part of the reason why Bin Laden has such an effective rallying cry is that it stirs up those just-under-the-surface memories of empire and power that were ripped away by crusades and colonialism.

All this ignores the fact that on the other side of the continent, China had numerous dynasties that also lasted hundreds of years, and arguably cultural development far in excess of anything europe had to offer probably until the rennaisance (although obviously comparing apples and oranges here, an exhaustive comparison being outside the scope of this little narrative). Many major philosophical and metaphysical schools of thought were developed during the time of the roman, holy roman and dark ages: Confuscianism, Legalism, Taoism...

I don't recall ever saying anything of that nature. What I've said is that the world is evolving past cold-war realities, and the US is now rapidly becoming part of the *problem*, preventing the natural development of economies and civilizations by either fruitlessly trying to foist democracy on them at the barrel of a gun or opressive development loan onus. US foreign policy is a blunt instrument when a finer tool would yield far greater results. That, however, appears to be a direct reflection on the party in power... by all accounts, Clinton was a consummate diplomat.

You're already paying the unbearable costs of empire, to the tune of a couple billion a day laying siege to a foreign land that looks more likely to turn radical shi'i than ever throw a rose at your feet. Bin Laden's been chortling his crippled ass off over how easy it's been to fuck with the US economy when he's been getting so much help by the people in power.

The ultimate outcome of course has been well documented: A lot of dead people, a lot of public tax funds funneled to multinational corporations that'll abandon the US shortly after the dollar starts to tank, erosion of already aenemic social spending at home, and near universal disdain for hamfisted applications of influence.

The concept of "pay now or pay later" isn't necessarily valid if cleverer minds can find a way to "pay never". Sadly, the robber-baron mentality still cripples decision makers' ability to think in new directions.

Once again, never say never.

Secondly, if the US wanted to truly be a world leader instead of just touting themselves as one and acting in direct opposition, people would be a lot happier. It is hard, however, to take a moral high ground when your government sends people off to be 'extradorinarily rendition'ed in one of those same countries you condemn for human rights abuses. The hypocrisy of the party line is where half the so-called antiamericanism sources from.

Personally, I'd say the two most likely prospects for succession, judging based on manpower, economic growth potential, and attitude are India and China. China already has a larger economy than the US in terms of pure dollars (although they have to spread it across 4x the population), and India is poised for great things. Japan, while a personal favorite of mine, still languishes in the shadow of the asian currencies collapse and faces serious competition for future resources by the substantially weightier china, as well as smaller challenges by korea, taiwan, malaysia, and india. I do doubt that any one country/bloc will acheive a huge disparity of relative power once the race is really underway, short of total economic collapse or total war.

As for kindness, I can't see India getting behind killing 100,000+ civilians in a resource invasion, calling out hits on foreign heads of state that don't play ball, or funding black ops to topple democratically elected governments or kill nuns in the jungles of central america while simultaneously claiming moral superiority in CNN... but I won't say it'll never happen. For what its worth Hinduism believes you have to be born a hindu, so if it happened at least there won't be obdurate polyester-clad conversion monkeys trying to 'save' me and 'witness' me on my doorstep every sunday morning.

Heh... well, most of the research I've already done, and these 'discussions' do pop up with regularity in the circles I run in, so in a way it's useful for me to purify my approach to counter this particular brand of jingoistic bullshit. It's a bit easier online when you have access to fact much more quickly and can illustrate a point with external references. Hard to do that in person, unless you carry a year's worth of newspapers with you everywhere you go.

NEW-KEW-LAR bombs is only allowed by Mr. Bush.

One final thought:

In the dark and middle ages, noone had books except the church and other very rich people, because they were the only ones who knew how to read. Book burning as you know it didn't come until well after Gutenberg developed his press and made books available inexpensively to the masses, which was long after the dark ages at the start of the renaissance.

Maybe now my insomnia will go away and I can get some sleep.

On an international level Bush gets owned all over again.
In his own country unfortunately there are plenty of worse retards

Exactly...Putin is more man that Bush can ever be...

Good news

The poor in the USA are 10 times richer than average poor European..lol only if you are talking about Ukraine and such...

Are you serios? I don't wanna read through the whole thread now

I had a chat with both leaders, and they promised that they wouldn't invade more than one country at the time... They also promised not to threaten more than 4 countries . Their last promise was not to destabilize more than 3 countries by covert operations...

So basically, they are or will be as kind as the US of A ....

when you see the non-US idiots who've posted in this thread, it becomes very clear why the US has surpassed the rest of the world in every way that matters.

Websiex is a tard. On page 1 he prosmised not to post here anymore because we are too stupiud for him, and since then he's made about 50 posts in here.

namely:

1. becoming a police state shithole.
2. being owned militarily by a bunch of barefoot brown kids
3. having elections to be monitored by do gooders from Ethiopia and Sierre Leone
4. not being able to have it's leader set foot outside the country unless surrounded by a three mile deep phalanx of soldiers.
5. lest we forget, being bankrupt.

keep laughing, dodo

EVERYONE PLEASE STAND BACK... THE INTERNET TOUGH GUY HAS ARRIVED!

perfect example of my original thought.

Iraqui welcome democracy:
Monday, February 28, 2005

Suicide Bomb Kills 115 Near Iraq Marketplace
By Haider Abbas and Mussab al-Khairalla | February 28, 2005

HILLA, Iraq (Reuters) - A suicide bomber detonated a car near police recruits and a crowded market south of Baghdad Monday, killing 115 people and wounding 148 in the single bloodiest attack in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

Mission Acomplished !

Don't waste your time with him...

The US had it's share of idiot representatives in this thread

don't worry, I won't.
He's rooted for the terrorists as long as he's been here.
Imagine how bad his life must be.

Bush is the #1 terrorist

ahahahahaha

Pawns thats what all of you are. The world stage is playing and all the hot air on this
forum and others will do nothing. I find it funny all the back and forth about who is evil
who is good. And the points about history are really entertaining. Each with their own twist for the way they would like to see the world. Soap Oprah for the self important
Internet people thats what all this is. But it is 5 pages long kudos to the trolls on each side long live GYF.

Muzzies wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the jews.

When was the last jihad ? 1100 AD or so
WHen did the problems start. 1948. Hmmmmm.

What people, whereever they go, cause trouble ? (hint spain, russia, germany)

I love these replies the best.

Imagine the balls it takes for an American to tell another nation to mind their own business.

It's irony at it's finest... particularly in a thread about how the US will soon be invading another nation for not doing what they want them to.

First of all I want to start to have you gentleman (if I can actually refer to you as such) pay attention to some other governments that aren't perfect.
Cuba, One of the wealthiest (per capita) countries in the world pre- Castro. Castro came in promising great things, one being liberating the people from an oppressive Batista.
Castro went to meet with the US President (Eisenhower) without appointment, and was denied by the president's secretary. Have you ever tried to walk into the CEO of Bell, Dell, BurgerKing, Microsoft without and appointment... ok Imagine now the fucking president.

Castro is outraged and storms out. Blah blah I'm not going to give you a latin american history lesson. Basically Castro changes his ideals and signs with Russia who agrees to pay more for sugar exports and charge less for oil. Castro switches to communism and boom problems... on paper his idealistic Ideas looked great... share the wealth amongst the people, free medical (which already existed) and privatization of US firms.
What looks great on paper hardly ever works in the real world.
Look at the original Marx doctrine. Looks amazing... a free people with equality. But what isn't on paper is teaching motivation and drive which doesn't exist in a communist or socialist economy because if you work hard or don't work at all you'll get the same results.

Why isn't Castro ousted? # 5 deadliest ruler in history. How come the US or England or Germany for that matter hasn't stepped up and taken the worst human rights violating dictator on Earth?
Don't tell me the Kennedy - Kruschev aggreement because I can slap that down in a second.
the Agreement basically states that the US cannot intervene or wage war against Cuba unless Cuba harbours nuclear weapons. Well how many of you know that in Public records (available on the fucking Internet no less) show satellite imagery proving Cuba had nuclear submarines in 4 seperate harbors at the same time in 1969, 1972 and 1978. I'd like to know if that isn't a violation of the agreement. Not to mention the numberous missiles we have images of stationed on Cuban soil... badly hidden under aging tarps.

SO why are we all worrying about Bush (who doesn't run our government, the Vice president runs the Secretaries - of housing, transportation, defense etc. and the Senate makes all important decisions not the president ) and Putin... when we all know they aren't going to wage a war against eachother. Let's stop fucking arguing about stupid shit and discuss something which actually is interesting.

That's why soldiers complain because they don't have the appropriate material to go to war

Call it the BUSH way ... not the US way

Terrorism ? They killed 2000 of your people . You killed millions and millions of civilians arround the world over the years . stupid shit .

US created terrorist . and will create more if they keep having cowboys for president

poor 10 times richer ? a bum in the street is a bum in the street ...

cost of living is high

You have no idea .

You have to wait for HOURS at the emergency room before somebody even see you . They really don't give a rat ass about people because there are not enough doctors for the job . The us system is better ... if you got money

You should gay-marriage with 12 clicks

you only have to wait it is not life threatening...go in with a gunshot wound or something critical and you willget looked after immediately. people going in that cut their finger or arm, can wait a bit longer...it isnt going to fall off

Cost of living in the US is relative to wher eyou live... In miami you can get an apartment for 1k a month for a 2bedroom 2 bath... yet in tampa, FL you can get a 2 bedroom 2 batch for 490 a month... move to gainesville that goes down to 300 a month... now if it's that cheap to live there (in a college town that serves 25 cent beers nightly and has 70 18-22 year old women) why would I want to live in Europe... pay a lot more for housing a make less?

Mind you if you're a webmaster and make money no matter where you live I'd take living in gainesville over living in Europe anyday.

Man, your posts sure are well thought out