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John Marco

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biz thread Affiliate programs: Dealing with fraudulent affiliates?

12-30-2005, 09:55 PM

I'm surprised there isn't a shared blacklist of fraudulent affiliate accounts. I was thinking it might be a good idea to start one to log fraud instances.

We cancel at least one affiliate for using stolen credit card numbers to sign up every day or two. I would gather that smaller affiliate programs don't have the resources to hire a 24/7 fraud team like we do and I can imagine they are hit very hard with fraud, with fraudsters praying on those who they might consider new or inexperienced.

How do you guys deal with fraud? It seems most is fairly simple to deal with:

IP/billing address mismatches
Mismatched usernames/email addresses/billing names
Members using proxies to connect
No or little activity on the site
Generic pages or poorly made pages as referring URLs
Redirected pages as referring URLs

We should all get together and start a shared blacklist of distinguishing information, such as Epassporte ID's, payment addresses, etc.

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sickbeatz

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#2

12-30-2005, 09:57 PM

who gives a fuck unless fraudulant payments are being made referred by the affiliate

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datatank

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#3

12-30-2005, 09:57 PM

What affiliate software do you use? I think most have some stuff like that built in now days
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detoxed

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#4

12-30-2005, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by John Marco

I'm surprised there isn't a shared blacklist of fraudulent affiliate accounts. I was thinking it might be a good idea to start one to log fraud instances.

We cancel at least one affiliate for using stolen credit card numbers to sign up every day or two. I would gather that smaller affiliate programs don't have the resources to hire a 24/7 fraud team like we do and I can imagine they are hit very hard with fraud, with fraudsters praying on those who they might consider new or inexperienced.

How do you guys deal with fraud? It seems most is fairly simple to deal with:

IP/billing address mismatches
Mismatched usernames/email addresses/billing names
Members using proxies to connect
No or little activity on the site
Generic pages or poorly made pages as referring URLs
Redirected pages as referring URLs

We should all get together and start a shared blacklist of distinguishing information, such as Epassporte ID's, payment addresses, etc.

That has to be breaking some kind of laws/agreements
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Webby

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#5

12-30-2005, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by John Marco

We cancel at least one affiliate for using stolen credit card numbers to sign up every day or two.

Serious John?? Dammit.. if you got concrete evidence pass it on the the law to burn their asses.

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John Marco

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#6

12-30-2005, 10:00 PM

Sickbeatz, that's obviously the problem. There are always instances of fraud that slip through the cracks and the affiliate is paid for the sales.

Datatank, we use custom software that detects the things described above + more automatically, but there are of course professional fraudsters who can easily circumvent those controls. We have the luxury of having a webcam site and observing member activity within the site to ascertain in those more advanced cases, but some people don't have the luxury

Detoxed, all sponsors would to do is update their ToS and privacy policy to indicate that the affiliate's information could be shared in the event of a ToS violation (Maxcash does this with spammers already)

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John Marco

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#7

12-30-2005, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Webby

Serious John?? Dammit.. if you got concrete evidence pass it on the the law to burn their asses.

We have called organizations in the past but the fact is most law enforcement is not concerned with this except in large cases. The Secret Service told us it would have to be very large cases for them to take interest.

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pr0

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#8

12-30-2005, 10:06 PM

IP/billing address mismatches - if they know what their doing, they'd simply take their proxy list, convert them to host names, & match the state/country

Mismatched usernames/email addresses/billing names - once again, only a amateur would fuck that up

Members using proxies to connect - you'd never be able to tell, they'd use odd port proxies or zombies

No or little activity on the site - this might be a good method, but letting people know about it is a bad idea, now their bots will login for #RANDOM-MINUTES & navigate pages

Generic pages or poorly made pages as referring URLs - they could simply generate a fake tgp gallery & use it as the sole referrer, send 5-6 sales a day

Redirected pages as referring URLs - lots of normal webmasters use straight re-directs with their seo traffic, so it might be an indicator, but not solid proof

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RRRED

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#9

12-30-2005, 10:06 PM

That would NEVER work. Program owners would put their own big traffic senders on the list so that all the competition would axe their accounts and they can get even more traffic out of them themselves.
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Webby

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#10

12-30-2005, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by John Marco

We have called organizations in the past but the fact is most law enforcement is not concerned with this except in large cases. The Secret Service told us it would have to be very large cases for them to take interest.

Ah.. noticed they don't seem to care unless it's cost effective.

If there was a blacklist, that not easy to work around as well or are you talking about publishing the claimed names.addresses used by fraudulent affiliates?

If so, prob would not kill it - but likely to cut the crap down.

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pr0

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#11

12-30-2005, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by RRRED

That would NEVER work. Program owners would put their own big traffic senders on the list so that all the competition would axe their accounts and they can get even more traffic out of them themselves.

another good point

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#12

12-30-2005, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by pr0

another good point

Sadly yes!

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pr0

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#13

12-30-2005, 10:10 PM

The best way in my personal experience, is to approve a webmaster account after reviewing it. If they want their money wired to estonia, if their using a free e-mail etc. then you simply pay closer attention to it. Unfortunately you can't stop fraud, you can only contain it & play cleanup.

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media

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#14

12-30-2005, 10:10 PM

This is really something that goes down in the books as something that is not talked about in the public.. There are alot of affiliate programs that will cross reference affiliate traffic with other programs, and pass a word along under the table, we deal with multiple programs on fraudulent affilliates.

Generally it starts with a "Hey, how have sales been with this affiliate, we might have some fraud with them!"

I think it would be good if we got rid of the scum and the scam...

Unfortunatly for every scammer you bust, there are 10 more waiting to take his place...

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AdultMegaCash

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#15

12-30-2005, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by detoxed

That has to be breaking some kind of laws/agreements

When they sign up it's stated that their info will not be disclosed for any reason.

To much legality to change your TOS to saying something along the lines of "we will not disclose any of your information unless you are caught cheating"

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wdsguy

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#16

12-30-2005, 10:13 PM

Each company has their own blacklist and some do share.
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Webby

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#17

12-30-2005, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by AdultMegaCash

When they sign up it's stated that their info will not be disclosed for any reason.

To much legality to change your TOS to saying something along the lines of "we will not disclose any of your information unless you are caught cheating"

If the affiliate scammed and broke the deal with a sponsor - there is no deal. Sounds like it can be covered in one or two sentences to allow for that option?

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pr0

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#18

12-30-2005, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by media

This is really something that goes down in the books as something that is not talked about in the public.. There are alot of affiliate programs that will cross reference affiliate traffic with other programs, and pass a word along under the table, we deal with multiple programs on fraudulent affilliates.

Generally it starts with a "Hey, how have sales been with this affiliate, we might have some fraud with them!"

I think it would be good if we got rid of the scum and the scam...

Unfortunatly for every scammer you bust, there are 10 more waiting to take his place...

yup, the best way to deal with them is to get in touch with programs similar to your own, use your contacts...make friends & compare information

if you're new to the biz, come to a couple shows, drink some beers & shoot the shit with program owners....listen to media he knows what he's talkin about

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RRRED

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#19

12-30-2005, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by media

This is really something that goes down in the books as something that is not talked about in the public.. There are alot of affiliate programs that will cross reference affiliate traffic with other programs, and pass a word along under the table, we deal with multiple programs on fraudulent affilliates.

Generally it starts with a "Hey, how have sales been with this affiliate, we might have some fraud with them!"

I think it would be good if we got rid of the scum and the scam...

Unfortunatly for every scammer you bust, there are 10 more waiting to take his place...

Yeah this has happened forever... Programs exchange favors and tidbits which can be even more valuable than actual traffic.... totally!
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media

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#20

12-30-2005, 10:26 PM

The shittiest thing in my opinion is country ban lists... There is no true GOOD solution..

Although I agree there IS a high saturation of fraud coming from specific countries, US affiliates are scamming scum as well.. The only thing that I think makes it easier for other countries is the fact that their legal systems make it so easy for them to get away with such things. Does not mean their whole population is screwy. I don't always agree in banning every affiliate no matter what from that specific country..

I've dealt with alot of affiliates from Russia, Brazil, Australia, who would have otherwise been locked out of our program.. But there is always an acception to the rule if you show references, and are willing to talk with me about getting a favor.. But you bet your ass though I will have accounting watching you like a hawk.. Thats just the way it is..

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High Quality

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#21

12-30-2005, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by John Marco

I'm surprised there isn't a shared blacklist of fraudulent affiliate accounts. I was thinking it might be a good idea to start one to log fraud instances.

We cancel at least one affiliate for using stolen credit card numbers to sign up every day or two. I would gather that smaller affiliate programs don't have the resources to hire a 24/7 fraud team like we do and I can imagine they are hit very hard with fraud, with fraudsters praying on those who they might consider new or inexperienced.

How do you guys deal with fraud? It seems most is fairly simple to deal with:

IP/billing address mismatches
Mismatched usernames/email addresses/billing names
Members using proxies to connect
No or little activity on the site
Generic pages or poorly made pages as referring URLs
Redirected pages as referring URLs

We should all get together and start a shared blacklist of distinguishing information, such as Epassporte ID's, payment addresses, etc.

Sounds like a good idea. We only do revshare cuz we too dont have the time/resources to screen the sales.

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media

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#22

12-30-2005, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by High Quality

Sounds like a good idea. We only do revshare cuz we too dont have the time/resources to screen the sales.

This is actually one good point I think..

Some companies have a revshare option and will only take partnership sales with a specific country, this can be good because you can establish a relationship with an affiliate, and check their track record out, and if they have what you want, then you can move them to pps.

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#23

12-30-2005, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by RRRED

That would NEVER work. Program owners would put their own big traffic senders on the list so that all the competition would axe their accounts and they can get even more traffic out of them themselves.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that Rrred. If a program gives me a 'not so good' reference on a foreign webmaster and he's given me one reference cuz it's the one he's doing the most money with, then the program risks to lose their good affiliate.

In the case of a database containing fraudulent/scamming affiliates - the result is the same, if he can't open accounts with anyone, he'll know that his 'good sponsor' is the one preventing him from growing or spreading his eggs.

Now for the problem/or questions I have with this:
1) if there is a shared list and the affiliate gets on the list in error/misunderstanding/or sponsor wanting to 'keep the affiliate' to himself - who does the affiliate have to turn to, to get off the blacklist?
2) How will he prove he's not a scammer?
3) Who will guarantee that the affiliate's record is not tarnished from future accounts with other companies?
4) How often will it update and ammendments be made?

If it's run like a 'Credit Bureau' type of system - being a seperate entity and which will go back and cross reference with concrete proof, then I say it could work, otherwise it will just create problems for a few good affiliates in the hopes of stopping alot of bad ones.
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#24

12-31-2005, 01:22 AM

There is a few solutions to all these problems... a few mainstream companies use new generation anti-fraud (wm) techniques with very high success rates (Im a fraud consultant in my spare time). This is one area adult is definately not ahead of the game.

I give it 11-18 months before a major adult sponsor catches on.
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d00t

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#25

12-31-2005, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by TopBucksTrixxxia

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that Rrred. If a program gives me a 'not so good' reference on a foreign webmaster and he's given me one reference cuz it's the one he's doing the most money with, then the program risks to lose their good affiliate.

In the case of a database containing fraudulent/scamming affiliates - the result is the same, if he can't open accounts with anyone, he'll know that his 'good sponsor' is the one preventing him from growing or spreading his eggs.

Now for the problem/or questions I have with this:
1) if there is a shared list and the affiliate gets on the list in error/misunderstanding/or sponsor wanting to 'keep the affiliate' to himself - who does the affiliate have to turn to, to get off the blacklist?
2) How will he prove he's not a scammer?
3) Who will guarantee that the affiliate's record is not tarnished from future accounts with other companies?
4) How often will it update and ammendments be made?

If it's run like a 'Credit Bureau' type of system - being a seperate entity and which will go back and cross reference with concrete proof, then I say it could work, otherwise it will just create problems for a few good affiliates in the hopes of stopping alot of bad ones.

FYI: HUGE webmaster black lists already exist that cover probably... 50-60% of sponsors and most people don't know about it. There are of course problems with this, most of which relate to privacy laws....
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#26

12-31-2005, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by d00t

There is a few solutions to all these problems... a few mainstream companies use new generation anti-fraud (wm) techniques with very high success rates (Im a fraud consultant in my spare time). This is one area adult is definately not ahead of the game.

I give it 11-18 months before a major adult sponsor catches on.

Does it involve an automated phone call?

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#27

12-31-2005, 01:33 AM

i have concrete evidence, that gammacash, braincash, aebn, spacash, epassporte, pussycash, is being scammed daily by fradulent affils. and they are laughing their way to the bank.

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d00t

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#28

12-31-2005, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Chio

Does it involve an automated phone call?

thats one way
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#29

12-31-2005, 02:53 AM

So buy a domain....
$8 - StopScammingUs.com
Install phpBB...
Walla, you have your own board and can now collect advertisement ads...
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#30

12-31-2005, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by pr0

Redirected pages as referring URLs - lots of normal webmasters use straight re-directs with their seo traffic, so it might be an indicator, but not solid proof

^^^ if that was a crime I'd be in jail for life ;)
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#31

12-31-2005, 03:09 AM

Blacklists by businesses/corporations are a bad idea for many reasons but all of which end with the word "lawsuit".

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detoxed

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#32

12-31-2005, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by John Marco

Sickbeatz, that's obviously the problem. There are always instances of fraud that slip through the cracks and the affiliate is paid for the sales.

Datatank, we use custom software that detects the things described above + more automatically, but there are of course professional fraudsters who can easily circumvent those controls. We have the luxury of having a webcam site and observing member activity within the site to ascertain in those more advanced cases, but some people don't have the luxury

Detoxed, all sponsors would to do is update their ToS and privacy policy to indicate that the affiliate's information could be shared in the event of a ToS violation (Maxcash does this with spammers already)

Yeah... but then when some idiot accidentally blacklists an innocent person... lawsuits start.
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#33

12-31-2005, 07:11 AM

Fucking scammers suck.
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#34

01-02-2006, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by fris

i have concrete evidence, that gammacash, braincash, aebn, spacash, epassporte, pussycash, is being scammed daily by fradulent affils. and they are laughing their way to the bank.

Thanks for helping out and putting a stop this, oh wait, you're not.
Keep up the shitty work.

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