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KRL

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#1

What's your opinon on this Supreme Court case?

10-02-2004, 09:28 AM

In this upcoming session, the US Supreme Court will rule on the constitutionality of executing killers who committed their crimes when they were juveniles.

There are presently 70 adults on death row who committed the crime of murder when they were under the age of 18.

The question is should the government be able to execute adults who killed when they where teens and children?

I'm not a big supporter of the death penalty to begin with so I have mixed feelings on this one.

Your thoughts?

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wvuatl

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#2

10-02-2004, 09:32 AM

I think you have to draw a line

under 18 = no death penalty
over 18 = death penalty

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#3

10-02-2004, 09:38 AM

I think we have to draw the line. The justice system is too stupid to allow the taking of a human life.

You're allowing the same people that awarded millions to some lady who burned her lap with coffee to determine whether someone must die.

We should all know better.

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#4

10-02-2004, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by VirtuMike
I think we have to draw the line. The justice system is too stupid to allow the taking of a human life.

You're allowing the same people that awarded millions to some lady who burned her lap with coffee to determine whether someone must die.

We should all know better.

Yeh the way they sentence people is bizarre these days. A CEO of a long distance phone company down here in Florida just got 19 years for switching customers (i.e. slamming) to his service without their authorization.

19 years for that? Go figure.

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#5

10-02-2004, 09:43 AM

I think it has to be done on a case by case basis.

"under 18" could be someone 17 years and 364 days old with multiple previous criminal convictions.

Then again I AM a big supporter of the death penalty and wish it was used more. I'd go another step further though and let the victims/victim's families dole out the punishment.
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#6

10-02-2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by VirtuMike
I think we have to draw the line. The justice system is too stupid to allow the taking of a human life.

You're allowing the same people that awarded millions to some lady who burned her lap with coffee to determine whether someone must die.

We should all know better.

You are also allowing politicians to make a decison on life and death, wrong and right. When he's only concerned about votes or no votes.

Look at Bush's record.

Also what about the mentally ill on death row?

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sincity

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#7

10-02-2004, 09:46 AM

I say kill all of those fuckers. What right did they have to take another life? AN eye for an eye.

If I want to kill someone and I get caught I know I am going to go to jail and get the death penalty if my state has it. But if I find a 10 year old in the hood and offer him $100.00 to kill somone he will be out of jail by the time he is 18 years old. That is fucked up.

KILL THEM ALL!!
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#8

10-02-2004, 09:48 AM

I'm not a fan of the death penalty.

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#9

10-02-2004, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by sincity
I say kill all of those fuckers. What right did they have to take another life? AN eye for an eye.

If I want to kill someone and I get caught I know I am going to go to jail and get the death penalty if my state has it. But if I find a 10 year old in the hood and offer him $100.00 to kill somone he will be out of jail by the time he is 18 years old. That is fucked up.

KILL THEM ALL!!

Do you have any idea how many people on death row have been exonerated with DNA tests proving they were innocent all that time???

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#10

10-02-2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by KRL
Do you have any idea how many people on death row have been exonerated with DNA tests proving they were innocent all that time???

Would you be OK with testing everyone on death row and if DNA evidence showed they weren't guilty, they were set free (barring unusual circumstances i.e. they have other convictions against them) but if DNA showed they were guilty, they were immediately put to death?
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#11

10-02-2004, 09:54 AM

They have found too many innocent people on death row. If we were civilized we would not have the death penalty except in the most extreme circumstances.
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#12

10-02-2004, 10:03 AM

A DNA test will not prove someone is guilty, but it can prove someone is not guilty.

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#13

10-02-2004, 10:50 AM

I am opposed to the death penalty in all cases.

The risk of killing an innocent person is too great.

In Canada we have had David Milgarde found innocent after doing 22 years, Donald French and Paul Moran proven innocent after doing more than 5.

Currently we have Robert Baltovich waiting for the results of his appeal. He is a convicted murderer who is free on bail. ***Free on bail**** that is how bad the case against him is, yet he was convicted.

My grandmother's brother, Wilbur Coffin was hanged in 1955. He was convicted on circumstancial evidence of killing two American hunters in New Brunswick. He, or rather his family, was guilty of hiring a bad lawyer. His case has been the subject of books and television documenteries.

I don't have US cases to cite, other than Hurricane Carter.

How do you correct the wrong of executing an innocent person?

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#14

10-02-2004, 10:53 AM

I'm thinking that the best solution is to give them a hearing when they are 18 to see if they have changed. If not on to death row with them...

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#15

10-02-2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by xclusive
I'm thinking that the best solution is to give them a hearing when they are 18 to see if they have changed. If not on to death row with them...

So the best actors get off of death row?

.
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#16

10-02-2004, 11:17 AM

I do not believe a humane Death is the worst punishment you can receive.

I think life in prison without the possibility of parole and make the entire sentence in solitary confinement in a little dark room is FAR worse.

If I was convicted of murder, I would BEG for the death penalty so I would not have to spend the rest of my life locked up. Death is the easy way out, they are murders MAKE THEM SUFFER!

As far as what to do with child murders. I have no idea, and honestly I think it is an important enough subject to NOT have an opinion on it if you are not very well studied in all of the issues that affect the matter.
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#17

10-02-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by VirtuMike
A DNA test will not prove someone is guilty, but it can prove someone is not guilty.

you for real ? ?
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#18

10-02-2004, 11:22 AM

i say fucking kill the motherfuckers

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#19

10-02-2004, 11:23 AM

I really don't understand how we can teach people that killing is wrong... by killing.
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#20

10-02-2004, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Dead13
I do not believe a humane Death is the worst punishment you can receive.

I think life in prison without the possibility of parole and make the entire sentence in solitary confinement in a little dark room is FAR worse.

If I was convicted of murder, I would BEG for the death penalty so I would not have to spend the rest of my life locked up. Death is the easy way out, they are murders MAKE THEM SUFFER!

True but why should the taxpayers pay tens of thousands of dollars a year PER PRISONER to keep them in prison for life?

Did you know prisoners are the only class of people in the US who are guaranteed free healthcare? Who do you think is paying for that?

If we could keep them in prison for life and have them do hard labor to pay for their care, I'd be all for it. But paying for a rapist or murderer to get 3 square meals and free healthcare really gripes my fat butt.
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#21

10-02-2004, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
I really don't understand how we can teach people that killing is wrong... by killing.

It's "punishment" not "education"
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#22

10-02-2004, 11:26 AM

You can't even drink beer before 21, so why should anybody be executed earlier.

No smoking under 18 no beer under 21 just shows that they think you aren't able to handle things under those age barriers.

The american system is just fucked up³.

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#23

10-02-2004, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Paul Waters

How do you correct the wrong of executing an innocent person?

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#24

10-02-2004, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Peaches
It's "punishment" not "education"

Hypothetical conversation with my son:

C: Daddy, why are they killing that man?

D: Because he killed someone.

C: They're killing him because he killed someone?

D: Yes.

C: Does that mean that all people that kill someone should be killed?

D: In this country, if you pre-meditate a murder you'll usually be killed.

C: So did someone plan on killing this man?

D: Yes. For years.

C: Shouldn't they be killed then?
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#25

10-02-2004, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
Hypothetical conversation with my son:

C: Daddy, why are they killing that man?

D: Because he killed someone.

C: They're killing him because he killed someone?

D: Yes.

C: Does that mean that all people that kill someone should be killed?

D: In this country, if you pre-meditate a murder you'll usually be killed.

C: So did someone plan on killing this man?

D: Yes. For years.

C: Shouldn't they be killed then?

so true
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#26

10-02-2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by DonovanPhillips
Hypothetical conversation with my son:

C: Daddy, why are they killing that man?

D: Because he killed someone.

C: They're killing him because he killed someone?

D: Yes.

C: Does that mean that all people that kill someone should be killed?

D: In this country, if you pre-meditate a murder you'll usually be killed.

C: So did someone plan on killing this man?

D: Yes. For years.

C: Shouldn't they be killed then?

This might be a good time for you to discuss with your chilld what punishment is all about.

I don't keep someone locked up in my basement against their will because if I did it, it would be illegal. Under your logic, that means no one should be locked up against their will even if they break the law since if you or I do it, it's against the law......
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#27

10-02-2004, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Peaches
This might be a good time for you to discuss with your chilld what punishment is all about.

I don't keep someone locked up in my basement against their will because if I did it, it would be illegal. Under your logic, that means no one should be locked up against their will even if they break the law since if you or I do it, it's against the law......

Locking up prisoners to keep them from committing crimes, and killing them, are two different things. Can you honestly tell me that you do not see a difference?
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#28

10-02-2004, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Peaches
True but why should the taxpayers pay tens of thousands of dollars a year PER PRISONER to keep them in prison for life?

Did you know prisoners are the only class of people in the US who are guaranteed free healthcare? Who do you think is paying for that?

If we could keep them in prison for life and have them do hard labor to pay for their care, I'd be all for it. But paying for a rapist or murderer to get 3 square meals and free healthcare really gripes my fat butt.

Peaches, I respect your view, it is very well thought out and your heart is in the right place.

But have you ever looked at the cost of executing someone vs. just keeping them in prison? The cost of executing a person would shock the hell out of you, seems EVERYONE can make a profit.

To be honest I have not seen figures related to the matter in a few years, but when I last checked it cost more to execute someone within a 1 of their sentence (the longer it draws out the more it costs) than it does to keep them in jail for 30 years.

I think at some point I may try searching for some more updated info and see what I come up with. I just don't have time right now because football is on.

Either way I like your idea of life with hard labor. Force them to pay their own way is a damn good idea no matter what the difference in cost is.
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#29

10-02-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Peaches
This might be a good time for you to discuss with your chilld what punishment is all about.

I don't keep someone locked up in my basement against their will because if I did it, it would be illegal. Under your logic, that means no one should be locked up against their will even if they break the law since if you or I do it, it's against the law......

It means there are other ways than killing if you didn't get it yet

Especially minors who often didn't even know what they were doing.In the US you either stay in prison forever or get killed, none of the two would be the better choice.

If you kill somebody in europe you get into prison for years and then you'll get another chance to get everything straight again.
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#30

10-02-2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Dead13
Peaches, I respect your view, it is very well thought out and your heart is in the right place.

But have you ever looked at the cost of executing someone vs. just keeping them in prison? The cost of executing a person would shock the hell out of you, seems EVERYONE can make a profit.

To be honest I have not seen figures related to the matter in a few years, but when I last checked it cost more to execute someone within a 1 of their sentence (the longer it draws out the more it costs) than it does to keep them in jail for 30 years.

Interesting! What are the costs involved? The "death row" needing more security? Lawyers?

There's some prison that I hope someone will remember where it is that Bill Mahr broadcast from where it was hot as hell and the prisoners lived in tents and had to do hard labor. One of the groups (ACLU?) was, of course, going after them for inhumane treatment so I don't know if it's still there or not.

But I have to believe the rate of recidivism HAS to be lower when faced with going back where you live in a tent with no AC or TV and actually have to work.
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#31

10-02-2004, 11:48 AM

Hey actually, I found this pretty quickly... http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

Good info in that article.
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#32

10-02-2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Peaches
Interesting! What are the costs involved? The "death row" needing more security? Lawyers?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...scid=7&did=918
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#33

10-02-2004, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Dead13
Hey actually, I found this pretty quickly... http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

Good info in that article.

wow , that's amazing , it costs millions to put someone to death and only $600k for life in prison
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#34

10-02-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Peaches
But I have to believe the rate of recidivism HAS to be lower when faced with going back where you live in a tent with no AC or TV and actually have to work.

Maybe we could build a "Tent Jail" in Alaska for inmates sentenced to life without parole.

Give them a cot, a blanket, and a handwarmer!

Then let them go to work during the day in a Nike factory we could move from China.
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#35

10-02-2004, 11:53 AM

Aren't American and Iran the only two countries left that still kill youth criminals? That should answer the question right there.
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#36

10-02-2004, 11:54 AM

At the dawn of the 21st century, the death penalty is considered by most civilized nations as a cruel and inhuman punishment. It has been abolished de jure or de facto by 106 nations, 30 countries have abolished it since 1990. However, the death penalty continues to be commonly applied in other nations. China, the Democratic Republic of Congo, the United States and Iran are the most prolific executioners in the world. Indeed, the US is one of six countries (including also Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen) which executes people who were under 18 years-old at the time they committed their crimes.

List of which countries allow executions and which do not.

(short sample)
Countries that have banned executions:

Australia
Austria
Belgium
Bermuda
Bulgaria
Canada
Costa Rica
Denmark
Ecuador
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Iceland
Ireland
Italy
Nepal
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Poland
Portugal
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom

Countries that still execute people:

Afghanistan
Bangladesh
Botswana
China
Cuba
Egypt
Ethiopia
Guatemala
India
Indonesia
Iran
Kuwait
Laos
Lebanon
Liberia
Libya
Nigeria
North Korea
Pakistan
Palestinian Authority
Philippines
Qatar
Rwanda
Saudi Arabia
Somalia
Sudan
Syria
Thailand
Vietnam
Yemen
United States

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#37

10-02-2004, 11:57 AM

Old enough to take a life, old enough to pay with your life.

Period. End of story.

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#38

10-02-2004, 11:57 AM

I think it would depend on certain factors. Like I would wanna know at what age are they considered to be mature enough to grasp the consequences of their decision,
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#39

10-02-2004, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by pornguy
Old enough to take a life, old enough to pay with your life.

Period. End of story.

So if somebody kills your mom and you kill that guy after that, do you think it's fair to get executed for doing it or face a life in jail?
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#40

10-02-2004, 12:08 PM

The philosophy is:

Better to set ten guilty men free than to impose sentence on one innocent man....(including women and children here...)

I agree that innocents are imprisoned, along with the guilty. The reasons are many, not the least of which is economics...whomsoever can afford the best attorney has the largest opportunity to 'get' off....

BUT....

Fix the legal system.

If the death penalty is going to be repealed, since studies have shown it hasn't shown itself to be much of a deterrent to others......then, fix the damned system.

1. Clean up the legal system and provide what is needed for a healthy and vigorous defense and prosecution. In this way, everyone gets a fair shot, thereby reducing the after trial costs.

2. Create a program where prisoners are useful to society in a way that benefits society.
Turn the prisons into work houses...let them make license plates....let them work landfills or garbage....allow them to volunteer to be human guinea pigs for medical research..I always liked that one....

3. If the death penalty is to remain in place, then do it already. Convict. Take them out back and mercifully put a bullet through the brain and be done with it.

This country waffles too much.

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#41

10-02-2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Raven
allow them to volunteer to be human guinea pigs for medical research..I always liked that one....

Thats awesome dude!
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#42

10-02-2004, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Raven

3. If the death penalty is to remain in place, then do it already. Convict. Take them out back and mercifully put a bullet through the brain and be done with it.

This country waffles too much.

Yeah like the chinese do, ain't got any problems with that execution method but injections, gas chamber or electric chair are fucking horrible and damn expensive.
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#43

10-02-2004, 12:21 PM

It's a tough question but I agree with the people that say it needs to be a case by case basis. For example a 10 year old that takes a gun and shoots his playmate because he is angry doesnt have the same grasp on reality that a 16 year old does. I think if you are 16 and considered old enough to drive a car ( thus taking many people's lives into your hands each day ) then you are old enough to know killing is wrong and should be sentenced as an adult.

But the cost of killing someone is more than keeping them locked up for life.

I think what we need to do is put these people to work. Here where I live there are a ton of illegal migrant workers and the farmers hire them, knowing they are illegal, because they can't find anyone else to do the job for what they can afford to pay. What if that farmer could hire some inmates that would be brought out on a bus everyday with some guards and were put to work? The farmer gets his labor and the money that he pays the prison saves us some tax dollars. Also all work in all prisons should be done by prisoners. Just because the put in a 40 hour a week doesn't mean they get to go home and relax. They have to cook thier food, do laundry, clean up, just like everyone else.

I would also say no free college education ( for lifers nothing but for people doing smaller amounts of time that are going to get out of jail they can learn a trade) I'm sick of reading about prisinors that go to jail for 5 years and come out with a bachelors degree when a friend of mine and his wife are up to their eyes in student loans to get thier degrees.

I know the death penelty doesn't detour anyone from commiting capitol crimes but I think for some it should still be in place. If someone kills 20 people they are too dangers to put to work in the public, probably too dangerous to just have in the general prison population they serve no use to society anymore so we should be able to do away with them.
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#44

10-02-2004, 12:23 PM

Kill them all, let God sort them out
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#45

10-02-2004, 12:24 PM

I support the death penalty only when a crime can be proven 100% of the time...so that pretty much rules out the death penalty.

There have been far too many cases over turned since DNA has come into play, whether it's rape, murder or whatever for us to be able to say we can stand behind an irreversible action 100%.

So I don't care what age they are, what IQ they have...until we can find a way to rule out anyone innocent getting executed then there should be a moratorium.

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#46

10-02-2004, 12:27 PM

Death row should be used as a parts house for organ donors. Less expense involved, and the do some good with their worthless lives.
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#47

10-02-2004, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
I support the death penalty only when a crime can be proven 100% of the time...so that pretty much rules out the death penalty.

There have been far too many cases over turned since DNA has come into play, whether it's rape, murder or whatever for us to be able to say we can stand behind an irreversible action 100%.

So I don't care what age they are, what IQ they have...until we can find a way to rule out anyone innocent getting executed then there should be a moratorium.

Was exactly what I was about to say.

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#48

10-02-2004, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Peaches
Would you be OK with testing everyone on death row and if DNA evidence showed they weren't guilty, they were set free (barring unusual circumstances i.e. they have other convictions against them) but if DNA showed they were guilty, they were immediately put to death?

I would go for that in a second!!!
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#49

10-02-2004, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by VirtuMike
A DNA test will not prove someone is guilty, but it can prove someone is not guilty.

A DNA test can put a nail in the coffin to prove someone is guilty...so to speak.
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Peaches

Old broad

Join Date: Oct 2002

Posts: 13933
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#50

10-02-2004, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Dead13
Hey actually, I found this pretty quickly... http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/cost.html

Good info in that article.

Thanks - I've learned something today

OK, if we can keep them miserable and in prison for life for less than it would take to kill them, then I vote for life in prison. I love saving $$$
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