How Does Pro (fake) Wrestling Work ?

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  • mahoney
    Confirmed User
    • Nov 2003
    • 5318
    #1

    How Does Pro (fake) Wrestling Work ?

    How Does Pro (fake) Wrestling Work ? Ok So we all know it's fake but how do they decide the winner ? How do they decide who has a Career and who doesn't ?

    I know it has alot to do with your promoter and Image etc but so does every other business. I think WWF is so fucking Gay but I'm always amazed at the amount of people that pay to watch this crap Who is your favorite pro wrestler. I gotta go with Rowdy Roddy Piper
    Last edited by mahoney; 09-07-2004, 02:32 PM.
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    • polish_aristocrat
      Too lazy to set a custom title
      • Jul 2002
      • 40377
      #2
      I was a big WWF fan when I was 13-17 :D
      I don't use ICQ anymore.

        Comment

        • Drunken Sam
          Confirmed User
          • May 2004
          • 337
          #3
          it's 3d theater for people who don't want to watch the even more gay theater
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            • emmanuelle
              Confirmed User
              • Mar 2003
              • 3662
              #4
              We run an indy wrestling fed, and I can assure you that the only thing 'fake' is the fact that it's scripted. Those guys work hard, train hard and in my personal opinion are insane!


              Here's What We Do

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                • Quotealex
                  Confirmed User
                  • Sep 2001
                  • 6265
                  #5
                  It's WWE now not WWF.

                    Comment

                    • Yo Adrian
                      Confirmed User
                      • Apr 2002
                      • 6326
                      #6
                      I have absolutely no idea, but know a guy that does... brb
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                        • Varius
                          Confirmed User
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 6890
                          #7
                          Based on current WWE, here's my thoughts:

                          Who gets pushed:
                          ------------------------
                          1 - Young guys they think have 'the package': technical skills, charisma, looks, mic skills. Often one may be missing, so they just try to develop it or cover it up (ie. Rock had great mic skills, but not so great technical skills).

                          2 - Homegrown talent. When WWE took over WCW and ECW, they pushed a lot of their own guys over the stars of their former competition.

                          3 - Loyal talent. Guys who have 'paid their dues' or have been with the fed a LONG time (see: Undertaker, JBL).

                          4 - Big men / monsters. According to rumors, Vince McMahon has a hard-on for big guys.

                          5 - Guys so popular with the fans, you have to push them. Rey Mysterio, John Cena, Eddie Guerrerro (not saying they wouldnt be pushed on skill, but without their popularity they prob would be at a much lower position right now).

                          I can't catch any WWE shows on satellite or cable in Costa Rica, so not too sure about the latest talent...but of the last shows I saw, my fave guys were Randy Orton, Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle.


                          Old-school, it's Randy Savage, Mr.Perfect (RIP) and Comet Kid.
                          Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

                            Comment

                            • Varius
                              Confirmed User
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 6890
                              #8
                              Originally posted by emmanuelle
                              We run an indy wrestling fed, and I can assure you that the only thing 'fake' is the fact that it's scripted. Those guys work hard, train hard and in my personal opinion are insane!


                              Here's What We Do
                              Hopefully you'll have a show during my Montreal visit? I'm coming sept 23 - Oct 11 and love the IWS shows
                              Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

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                                • mrgica
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Jan 2004
                                  • 2169
                                  #9
                                  I can't believe why are people watching that????
                                  Fuck it dude, lets go bowling

                                    Comment

                                    • Deepai
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Feb 2004
                                      • 1583
                                      #10
                                      Yea Nothing is fake. Its choreographed, but nothing is fake. Its still a toll on your body. The way it works is that the writers/owners write up scripts, just like in a soap opera. Usually is a wrestler isnt getting any reaction, he is written off, or changed characters or what not. Some have great charisma, and therefore are sort of shoe ins to be pushed to the top. The Rock for instance. Its not complicated. Oh yea, and I used to be a huge mark, till about 2-3 years ago.
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                                        • garett
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Mar 2004
                                          • 683
                                          #11
                                          I used to watch wrestling a lot when I was kid .. then grew out of it. But recently I've been so bored on Thursday nights (have to stay home for the kids while mom works) I've had nothing else to do but watch smackdown.

                                          It's actually midly entertaining. And about it being fake .. of course we all know it's pre-determined.. but those guys really do go at it pretty hard. There's a documentary I watched a while ago called 'Beyond The Mat' .. it profiles wrestling in general, both amateur and pro ... it was pretty interesting. Revealed a lot of things I didn't know.

                                            Comment

                                            • SCtyger
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • May 2003
                                              • 564
                                              #12
                                              yes the outcome is scripted...

                                              but you cant take away the fact: they are Extreme Atheletes.

                                              body slammed 2-stories onto a table? that's anything but fake.


                                              as far as who gets what? it all depends on personality. some wrestlers have it... and appeal to the fan-base more than others.

                                              Stone Cold .. for one... as well as the Rock.

                                              Every wrestler that is any kind of wrestler will have a signature move.. if they dont... then they havent made it big yet.

                                              The Stonecold Stunner, The People's Elbow .. ahahha

                                              it's pure entertainment ... b'cuz everything is overexaggerated.
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                                                • Varius
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Jun 2004
                                                  • 6890
                                                  #13
                                                  Originally posted by Deepai
                                                  Yea Nothing is fake. Its choreographed, but nothing is fake. Its still a toll on your body. The way it works is that the writers/owners write up scripts, just like in a soap opera. Usually is a wrestler isnt getting any reaction, he is written off, or changed characters or what not. Some have great charisma, and therefore are sort of shoe ins to be pushed to the top. The Rock for instance. Its not complicated. Oh yea, and I used to be a huge mark, till about 2-3 years ago.
                                                  Exactly. The performers still have to be in awesome shape, still risk injuries all the time, etc....

                                                  As for the Rock, he wasn't very popular at all until they tried painting him as a bad guy. As the 'blue chipper' Rocky Maivia, all he got was 'Die Rocky Die' chants because he was so flavorless and boring.

                                                  Once he became a 'bad guy', started speaking more and feuded with Degeneration-X, then he became 'The Rock'.
                                                  Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

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                                                    • Manowar
                                                      jellyfish  
                                                      • Dec 2003
                                                      • 71528
                                                      #14
                                                      wrestling is fucking hilarious

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                                                        • polish_aristocrat
                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                          • Jul 2002
                                                          • 40377
                                                          #15
                                                          Originally posted by Varius
                                                          Mr.Perfect (RIP)


                                                          what happened?
                                                          I don't use ICQ anymore.

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                                                            • SCtyger
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • May 2003
                                                              • 564
                                                              #16
                                                              oooh somebody's got to have the clip where Sid Justice jumps from the Top-Ropes and snaps his leg in 2.
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                                                                • Varius
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Jun 2004
                                                                  • 6890
                                                                  #17
                                                                  Originally posted by polish_aristocrat


                                                                  what happened?
                                                                  I believe he died from OD'ing, perhaps on Cocaine if I remember right.

                                                                  Could have been painkillers or something else though...
                                                                  Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

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                                                                    • Vitasoy
                                                                      GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!
                                                                      • Oct 2003
                                                                      • 58202
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Bret The Hitman Hart. I also liked owen... RIP


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                                                                        • mahoney
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Nov 2003
                                                                          • 5318
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Ok some of you are saying it's not fake so does that mean the winner isn't decided in advance ?
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                                                                            • Scott McD
                                                                              Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                              • Nov 2002
                                                                              • 67792
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Originally posted by mahoney
                                                                              Ok some of you are saying it's not fake so does that mean the winner isn't decided in advance ?
                                                                              Those people are dumb. Don't listen to them...


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                                                                                • Vitasoy
                                                                                  GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!
                                                                                  • Oct 2003
                                                                                  • 58202
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  Originally posted by mahoney
                                                                                  Ok some of you are saying it's not fake so does that mean the winner isn't decided in advance ?
                                                                                  It's obviously scripted. The winner is determined in advanced. I have no idea how they decide the winner each time though. Vince himself said all winners are decided in advanced. on OTR (off the record)


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                                                                                    • Scott McD
                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                      • Nov 2002
                                                                                      • 67792
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by SCtyger
                                                                                      oooh somebody's got to have the clip where Sid Justice jumps from the Top-Ropes and snaps his leg in 2.
                                                                                      Oh yeah i had that.

                                                                                      I'll have a look...


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                                                                                        • emmanuelle
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • Mar 2003
                                                                                          • 3662
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by Varius
                                                                                          Hopefully you'll have a show during my Montreal visit? I'm coming sept 23 - Oct 11 and love the IWS shows

                                                                                          Our next show is Sept 25th at Unison.
                                                                                          I'm not sure if we'll be having any special guests for that one or not, but Sid Vicious is due back sometime soon. I'll post again once I know whether or not it will be this next show.

                                                                                          That man is literally insane!

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • Varius
                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                              • Jun 2004
                                                                                              • 6890
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Originally posted by emmanuelle
                                                                                              Our next show is Sept 25th at Unison.
                                                                                              I'm not sure if we'll be having any special guests for that one or not, but Sid Vicious is due back sometime soon. I'll post again once I know whether or not it will be this next show.

                                                                                              That man is literally insane!
                                                                                              Hopefully in a good way and not a cokehead Carl XL Leduc way
                                                                                              Skype variuscr - Email varius AT gmail

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                                                                                                • mahoney
                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                  • Nov 2003
                                                                                                  • 5318
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Originally posted by Vitasoy
                                                                                                  It's obviously scripted. The winner is determined in advanced. I have no idea how they decide the winner each time though. Vince himself said all winners are decided in advanced. on OTR (off the record)

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                                                                                                    • emmanuelle
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Mar 2003
                                                                                                      • 3662
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by emmanuelle
                                                                                                      Our next show is Sept 25th at Unison.
                                                                                                      I'm not sure if we'll be having any special guests for that one or not, but Sid Vicious is due back sometime soon. I'll post again once I know whether or not it will be this next show.

                                                                                                      That man is literally insane!

                                                                                                      More likely he's taken too many bumps to the head

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                                                                                                        • psyko514
                                                                                                          See sig. Join Epic Cash.
                                                                                                          • Oct 2002
                                                                                                          • 22366
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Varius
                                                                                                          Based on current WWE, here's my thoughts:

                                                                                                          Who gets pushed:
                                                                                                          ------------------------
                                                                                                          1 - Young guys they think have 'the package': technical skills, charisma, looks, mic skills. Often one may be missing, so they just try to develop it or cover it up (ie. Rock had great mic skills, but not so great technical skills).

                                                                                                          2 - Homegrown talent. When WWE took over WCW and ECW, they pushed a lot of their own guys over the stars of their former competition.

                                                                                                          3 - Loyal talent. Guys who have 'paid their dues' or have been with the fed a LONG time (see: Undertaker, JBL).

                                                                                                          4 - Big men / monsters. According to rumors, Vince McMahon has a hard-on for big guys.

                                                                                                          5 - Guys so popular with the fans, you have to push them. Rey Mysterio, John Cena, Eddie Guerrerro (not saying they wouldnt be pushed on skill, but without their popularity they prob would be at a much lower position right now).
                                                                                                          You're dead on with pretty much everythingyou said. Except not all loyal workers are rewarded unfortunately. Look at Billy Gunn or Bob Holly for example. Or on a lesser level, Jericho currently.

                                                                                                          And yes, Vince loves the big guys. Batista, Big Show, Edge, Kane, Lesnar, etc...

                                                                                                          And like everyone has said, yes, it's scripted, meaning winners are decided in advance. But wrestlers as a whole or in crazy shape, bust their ass and work their bodies hard.

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                                                                                                            • ezrydn
                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                              • Aug 2004
                                                                                                              • 695
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              I can attest to most of the statements above as being true. For 4 years, I worked as a Remote Engineer for a TV station in a very large metropolitan city. Every Friday nite, for those 4 years, I was videotaping "raslin." I soon became aware of the "showmanship" portion of the sport.

                                                                                                              Participants who "couldn't understand English" or would chew your leg off as look at you, would come in the remote truck and politely ask, in perfect English, if they could get a coke from us (they all knew we had "iced" in the truck).

                                                                                                              After the show, mortal enemies would walk out of the locker room deciding where they were all going to have dinner...together.

                                                                                                              Is it fake? Well, you and I couldn't do it without getting hurt, badly. Is it what the "storyline" implies? Nope.

                                                                                                              But, ya know, those guys in the movies weren't really shooting Indians either!

                                                                                                              And, to the participants of the sport, they're truly athletes. And, they've got to be better than just 'good' to have such a career.

                                                                                                              So, is it fake? Ummmmm, yes and no.

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • Vitasoy
                                                                                                                  GFY HALL OF FAME DAMMIT!!!
                                                                                                                  • Oct 2003
                                                                                                                  • 58202
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by mahoney
                                                                                                                  Thats Strange. This is Why The Terrorists hate us

                                                                                                                  Want to see real fighting? Watch Pride, K1 or UFC


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                                                                                                                    • mahoney
                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                      • Nov 2003
                                                                                                                      • 5318
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      I really like the tough man competition and the Ultimate Fighting Challenge. That's like porno violence
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                                                                                                                        • Basic_man
                                                                                                                          Programming King Pin
                                                                                                                          • Oct 2003
                                                                                                                          • 27360
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          its only theater
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                                                                                                                            • block
                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                              • Jan 2004
                                                                                                                              • 1258
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              They have script writers just like any tv shows... the winner is decided by the script.

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                                                                                                                                • reynold
                                                                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                  • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                  • 51271
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  i think it depends who's the wrestler that clicks in the crowd, have the "acting" skills, the body, voice and charisma.

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • MissMina
                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                      • Jan 2004
                                                                                                                                      • 2478
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Vitasoy
                                                                                                                                      Bret The Hitman Hart. I also liked owen... RIP
                                                                                                                                      I met Owen shortly before he died. Really sweet guy

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                                                                                                                                        • RandomNinja
                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                          • Jun 2004
                                                                                                                                          • 818
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Favorite wrestler: Chris Benoit

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                                                                                                                                            • TexasDreams
                                                                                                                                              former Miserable Admin :)
                                                                                                                                              • Oct 2003
                                                                                                                                              • 4700
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              It may be scripted, and the winner's decided beforehand, but I still enjoy watching WWE SmackDown every week. I think that the show has some of the funniest scripts on television today, and from a marketing aspect it's absolute genius.

                                                                                                                                              McMahon and company do a hell of a job in putting together sports and entertainment in a package that continuously sells out major stadiums and arenas not just week after week, but 2 to 4 times a week non-stop. I don't see any other group with that kind of consistent marketing success in any field.

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                                                                                                                                                • zentz
                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                  • Nov 2003
                                                                                                                                                  • 8062
                                                                                                                                                  #37
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                                                                                                                                                    • tapeworm206
                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                      • Aug 2004
                                                                                                                                                      • 282
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Vitasoy
                                                                                                                                                      Want to see real fighting? Watch Pride, K1 or UFC
                                                                                                                                                      No if you want real wrestling go to www.NWWL.com , Carmen Electra's Naked Women's Wrestling League...

                                                                                                                                                      Now that is wrestling!

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                                                                                                                                                        • rakeback
                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                          • Mar 2004
                                                                                                                                                          • 405
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          WWE usually decides what they want to happen at the big Payperview event, then they start scripting backwards, week by week to get to the current show you're watching on TV twice a week.

                                                                                                                                                          my favorite was ECW, they were damn hardcore.

                                                                                                                                                          I went to several PPV's around chicago.

                                                                                                                                                          Good times
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                                                                                                                                                            • Dirty D
                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                              • May 2002
                                                                                                                                                              • 4044
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              I used to webmaster Randy "Macho Man" Savage's website.
                                                                                                                                                              We auctioned off his Wrestlemania 1 outfit for $10,000

                                                                                                                                                              He and Hulk Hogan both live in the Tampa Bay area.

                                                                                                                                                              Wrestlers are crazy - not too much different from their character!

                                                                                                                                                              His forehead is totally scared from all the cuts back in the old school dayz.

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                                                                                                                                                                • pornguy
                                                                                                                                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                                                                                                                                  • 62910
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  Its pretty simple. A guy gets a bunch other other guys to get in a ring in their underware, and play throw each other around.

                                                                                                                                                                  then after they practice a little they sell tickets.
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                                                                                                                                                                    • jade_dragon
                                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                      • May 2004
                                                                                                                                                                      • 1737
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      I miss the days of the smaller faster wrestlers, when they were highlighting the Japanese and Mexican wrestlers more and having the big 5 on 5 matches where people were flying everywhere and it was all about technical acribatics and team power moves.....

                                                                                                                                                                      I think DX, NWO and when Sting became dark were the best dramas written for television hands down. It really is a male soap oprah.

                                                                                                                                                                      DX and NWO paradies of other wrestling groups like the 4 horsemen

                                                                                                                                                                      The first time we heard the Crow like entrance speach of Sting when he returned

                                                                                                                                                                      The Brett Hart and Shawn Michaels matches

                                                                                                                                                                      Shawn Michaels and The Undertaker cage matches

                                                                                                                                                                      The first Dean Malinko/Ultimo Dragon match where for the first time we saw two technical wreslers do counter after counter.

                                                                                                                                                                      But I disagree, the thows are done in a way to cause low impact, the ring is layered to reduce shock to body parts, the punches are pulles and sometimes do not even connect. You could very well enter into the ring with these guys and do simular stuff and not get injured after some training but you will eventually, accidents do happen. Let us not forget the steroid use and personal trainers so while they do work out the substances help out a lot.
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                                                                                                                                                                        • DWB
                                                                                                                                                                          Registered User
                                                                                                                                                                          • Jul 2003
                                                                                                                                                                          • 31779
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          My best friend wrestles for WWE and he takes a beating. Yes, he knows if he is going to win or lose, what is going to be said and the basics of the match, but those ring floors still hurt, as do the ropes. Getting hit is getting hit and though they are trained to give and take them... it can still hurt. Go get on the mat and take a bump... it hurts.

                                                                                                                                                                          With that said, the best guys make it look easy.

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                                                                                                                                                                            • psyko514
                                                                                                                                                                              See sig. Join Epic Cash.
                                                                                                                                                                              • Oct 2002
                                                                                                                                                                              • 22366
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by DirtyWhiteBoy
                                                                                                                                                                              My best friend wrestles for WWE and he takes a beating. Yes, he knows if he is going to win or lose, what is going to be said and the basics of the match, but those ring floors still hurt, as do the ropes. Getting hit is getting hit and though they are trained to give and take them... it can still hurt. Go get on the mat and take a bump... it hurts.

                                                                                                                                                                              With that said, the best guys make it look easy.
                                                                                                                                                                              who is he?

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                                                                                                                                                                                • Nightraven
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Nov 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 314
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  They probably flip a coin
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                                                                                                                                                                                    • SpikeHeel
                                                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Oct 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 1531
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      they usually keep wrestler that has the charisma and the voice that will make pro-wrestling alive.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        • jade_dragon
                                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                          • May 2004
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 1737
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          I train in martial arts, we get hit and we bruise and scar. I know grecko roman wrestlers as well as jujitsu practicioners, they bruise and scar. Big people hitting big people hard should leave marks and scars just like we have. Yet every week they come out and unless there was some accident or a huge pay per view match there is little or no damage shown and make up does not work so well when you are sweating and lubed up. Stomping your foot while giving someone a left jab or jumping into a hip toss......... Weekly events no, pay per view perhaps.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Wrestling I would sum up like football/rugby, you get impact but it does not mean you are physically effected by it each time, lots of time a hit does not do anything but make a noise and look more painful than it was. Leg drop, elbow drop, stomp punches, hip tosses, frog splash, shooting star press, figure four, arm bars, clothesline, power bombing by closing your legs before impact, holding the head on bulldogs and the slams where the head is inbetween the legs (can not remember the name). The most painful things are probably those backhands, this is the only time you see any kind of visible mark from a hit (chest turns red), ddt and suplexes of any kind.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Not saying the guys are not big and not saying they are not in decent muscular shape just saying that those hits are not as hard as they look and the mat is layered and spring loaded.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Last edited by jade_dragon; 09-08-2004, 12:40 AM.
                                                                                                                                                                                          even ADULTS need TOYS
                                                                                                                                                                                          icq: 3 6 3 2 6 6 6 7 | aim: conglomorateman
                                                                                                                                                                                          open for business, affiliates and friendships

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                                                                                                                                                                                            • Goatse
                                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Sep 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 2086
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              The only type of wrestling I enjoyed as a kid was the gory, hardcore matches. Abdullah's blood-filled face, with that creepy stare, scared me shitless. I knew it was fake, yet I couldn't help thinking this guy was geniunely nuts.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                • SykkBoy2
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Jesus loves bacon
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Feb 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 19969
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I started getting rbunt out on WWE product last year and haven't watched much lately, but have been watching the TnA guys...they have some of the guys who couldn't/wouldn't play politics with Vince McMahon like Shane Douglas, Sabu, Jeff Jarrett, etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've also been watching a ton of Lucha Libre wrestling on Galavision (it's in spanish, but a lot of fun, especially when they wrestle in the octagon ring) It's fully of high flyers and gore...
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Support my new movie “The Second Coming”

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Reak
                                                                                                                                                                                                      So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Mar 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 17920
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      A does it makes a lot of money?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Q If yes, it works

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