Useful Martial Arts

Magnum .45 will take care of them all.

My previous comment ("It is about the stylist and how they interpret the art.") is a generalisation and genaralisations don't explain the whole story.

I think another way of saying it is; 'it is not the camera that makes the photo great, it is the person taking the photo." A good camera can help only so much. The rest, the way it is composed is up to the camera operator. It's all in the way you use it, not just the brand of camera. The style is important but the stlylist and the way they use it is what really counts.

Again it is still a generalisation yet I hope that explains it a little better.

i cant believe the person who started this thread put kung fu in the lowest group!!

kung fu is basically chinese martial arts, which includes many different styles... some more potent then others.

i would not let whoever wins or dominates in the UFC influence the decision of which martial art is the best! in my opinion, wing chun is one of the best martial arts... but like people have already mentioned, it depends on the practitioner and also the quality of training they are recieving. i have seen a few wing chun students get in the UFC ring and get beaten, but to be blunt about it, they werent very good when it comes down to wing chun.

without the correct teaching then yes it is not going to be very effective, and finding a good instructor is quite hard. there are a lot of 'milk shake' wing chun academies around! (crap wing chun)

One of the best forms of wing chun is known as futsan wing chun. this is basically an ancient style of chinese street fighting. it was used in ancient times gang wars etc. the purpose of it is to take the person out in one blow... no mucking around! very deadly stuff.

i really would have to say that when it comes to martial arts the chinese are well ahead of the rest!

So it's not the size it's how you use it right?

Full contact judo is as affective as anything else...

that absolutely means nothing.. When I tried out Judo.. First class.. I fought a brown belt.. (just before black) and I beat the guy without breaking a sweat... I then tried another brown belt.. I never was able to move or get close to the guy.... The color of the belt really doesnt mean much...

LOL or as Confuscuius says; "it's not how deep you fish, it's how you wiggle your worm."

each martial art has its strong points... but if the same person did every martial art, then they would find a particular one or two to be the most effective for no rules street fighting. i would bet that would be a form of chinese martial arts (kung fu).... why dont you go and train with a shaolin monk, i really dont think you will see any point in doing kickboxing or anything like that afterwards!

kickboxing or even boxing becomes more usefull than jujitsu or judo when fighting 3+ guys,...

out of all the martial arts around, how would boxing be more useful for fighting 3+ guys when it is designed for one on one fighting in a ring... and is designed to wear the other person out with just punching??!!

I personally did 5 years of Lau Gar kung fu which (in the west) seems to be mostly found in the UK. I've been out of it for years, but I do remember one classic lesson.

My instructor asked me what I'd do if I ever came across someone who did Judo or some other form of wrestling and then proceeded to demonstrate. Ouch.

When he offered to show me how to defend against this kind of thing on the street I rushed him trying to grapple him, he pulled out a rubber training knife and stabbed me in the head. Works with a broken bottle, piece of plastic, key whatever.

Either way a lot of ground work was taught at those classes. Being weak in any one area was not considered a good thing.

One last thing, just did a Google and found this. The commentary is whatever, but the video is priceless:

http://www.tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/BestArt.htm

you can keep a distance with your adversaries with boxing... even more with kickboxing...

Ask yourself.. if you were 3 or 4 guys.. who would you want to fight... Mike Tyson (in his prime) or Royce Gracie...? I'll sure take gracie ... One on one however.. Gracie should win 3 times out of 4 with Tyson....

And boxing wasnt "designed" for anything... Every fighting sports are fought one on one... As for wearing the other person out.. lol.. thats because of the gloves...If you want a quick fight.. boxing without gloves is your best bet..

Then you had terrible teachers. Im lucky to have good teachers so i might be good at this in five years or so if i can train a little more often.

And if you really want to see a good documentary about aikido then get "Steven Segal - The Path Beyond Thought". He teaches his students exactly what we have been talking about and you will be showed how some of his students, and himself defends themselves successfully against very serious multiple attackers. So watch this before you post any more crap about something you that you know way too little about to be downtalking. And that goes for the rest of you dickheads as well.

I love how these martial arts threads turns into a huge debate.

Everyone claims to be a "specialist" at his art. I'd love to see a webmasters tourney...would be great to see you guys put your money where your mouth is!!

I hold 2nd Kyu in Aikido, I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Aikido as taught by Hombu Dojo aka Aikikai which Steven Segal is affiliated with has no randori, or free sparring. YOU NEVER TRAIN YOUR TECHNIQUES ON A FULLY RESISTING OPPONENT/OPPONENTS.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are wasting your time.

Dude, have you ever spent any time at Aikikai Hombu in Tokyo? I'm just curious if you have any basis in making that statement. I've been there a couple times during trips to Japan. Can't say I saw randori, but it's not like I've attended their dojo for years (or want to).

Steven Segal is only ranked shichidan with aikikai because of financial contributions. And I am not very impressed with him anyway.

Not all Aikido is the same. You cite Aikikai Hombu like it's the best representation of Aikido out there. I assure you it is not. If you want to see what real Aikido is, I personally invite you to my dojo. That's not meant to be some ego bullshit, but an honest invitation...it'll open your eyes.

I believe you are getting buddism and aikido mixed up. Segal is the real deal as far as Aikido is concerned. He was on the cover of Karate Magazines in the 70's. He only got rich because he was the aikido instructor of Michael Ovitz, hollywood superagent. His technique is great.

Don't give me that; I know too many people that have put him down. He married into most of his rank and made up the crap about his life. A friend of mine even witnessed his 1 minutes shichidan test at hombu which he contributed over a million dollars to have. He could barely finish it, he was so winded. I'm not saying he hasn't been around for a while...I never said that...but he talks B.S. and I'm not impressed with his techniques at all. Works great as a 6'5" guy throwing around a little 5' uke, but what if the situation was reversed?

You know too many people who put him down? I suppose you mean verbally. How did he make his millions to give to get his rank? If he married into his rank, why did he need to pay millions to get it? Don't buy into the player haters bullshit. This guy was a martial arts expert in Japan. He became rich after he became a martial arts expert.

No...I'm talking personally. And there is no such thing as a "martial arts expert"...anyone that says they are has obviously learned very little.

We don't need to argue this point. You can revere him if you want...that's not a concern of mine... but I personally don't.

Thai Boxing is up there for sure. Those guys are wicked to watch.

I had fun with Tang Soo Do while i was stationed in Korea for 2 1/2 years of the 3 I was there...


I can kick ass in a 'leg fight' scenario but I know I lack hand and ground skills....I will certainly look into BJJ and a few others for filling in my gaps...another art I enjoyed messing with was Kyo Ku Shen Kai....again a lot of leg fighting....

I'm a fan of leg fighting as I don't walk my my arms, and don't like to hurt my lil knuckles but I'll bust my shin right on someone's knee or thigh or their shin in a heart beat ;)

Have you idiots that reply negatively to the steven segal aikido conversation even seen the movie i just told you too see where you will see FULLY RESISTING OPPONENTS. This is just hopeless talking about. Watch the movie, then get back here and embaress yourselves some more.

Are you talking about his "fully resisting" STUDENTS? i.e. the randori situated in his dojo? If so, yes.

I have yet to hear of any Aikido school that trains under randori. Tomiki Aikido is the only one that has tournaments, and I've seen clips of them. Not very impressive, looks like Judo.

As for why Aikikai Hombu is what I use, it's simple. It's what was brought up, in conjunction with Steven Segal. Who is a joke.

Do a quick search on Judo Gene Lebell and Steven Segal. I bet Segal wasn't too happy shitting himself after Lebell choked his ass out.

Yah seen the movie. It's not martial arts, it's called synchronized dancing.

I'm very familiar with the Gene Lebell story as well as others and know of 2 more people personally that took him out. He makes a good movie show, but not in the real world.

There's varying definitions of "randori". In Judo, it's a competition. In aikido, it's generally a multiple attacker situation...a drill to reflexively use your techniques when you don't know what the attack is or who it's coming from.

I used to get pissed off and challenge *anyone* that says aikido was ineffective. It still get's me mad, but I understand that there's A LOT of bad Aikido out there, so if that's all someone's been exposed to, then I guess I can understand them thinking that. But, REAL Aikido is effective and powerful. Before you criticize Aikido in general, see what the good stuff is.

Jiu jitsu to attack, aikido for defense! and don't forget Tai Chi to keep your body elastic and dynamic all the other times but you fight with that gorilla!

You can be a martial arts expert. You can be a wrestling expert. You can be a handgun expert. You are getting your dojo philosophies a little confused. Are you saying Bruce lee was not a martial arts expert?

As far as Seagal is concerned, I didn't think you would be able to back up your statements about buying his rank with facts. I was right. He wasn't rich until he became a movie star. He wasn't a movie star until he was an EXPERT at aikido. Yes, you can be an expert at Aikido.

An "expert" implies someone that has mastered an art, which in turn implies someone who has learned everything about that art. You can never learn everything...that's impossible. Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei himself stated he was just "a student of Aikido" on his death bed. If he thinks of himself as just a student who has not mastered his art, then no one can claim otherwise.

I really don't need to talk about Seagal (or Segal) anymore...Like I said, I don't really care what your opinion of him is. That's great that you admire him, but I most assuredly do not.

a chainsaw is useful..

No, expert means the following:

A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

So, yes, Steven Seagal is an expert in Aikido.

You throw accusations about the man, I just wanted you to back it up. If you can't, you might want to not say bad things about people when you don't have facts. They should teach that in your dojo as well as the definition of words like expert.

I know the definition of "expert", which is why I said "implies". And even by your definition, I don't think he's an expert.

This is why I don't respect him:

(1) I think it was '73 or '74, in a seminar that MY sensei attended (he's still got the sign-in book), Seagal was there as a green belt (whatever that is in aikido...I've never seen a style that uses green belts) and served as uke for his sensei in a demonstration. He *actively* tried to make his sensei look bad by resisting all of his techiniques. Now, this is a valid training method, but not one you use to discredit your sensei during a demonstration...that is completely dishonorable. My Sensei was pissed and requested to use Seagal as uke when his demonstration occurred. He did and slammed him and another uke around until Seagal couldn't take anymore. (btw, don't bother asking for my Sensei's name, because I won't give it on an adult board.)

(2) He has time and again lied that he has trained with Morihei Ueshiba O'Sensei. This never happened; in fact, he's never even met O'Sensei...the furthest into the US O'Sensei went was Hawaii in '61, and Seagal didn't go to Japan until after his death. When Kisshumaru Ueshiba O'Sensei was asked about his claims to have met and studied with O'Sensei, he simply replied "I wonder if that could be...", which is the very Japanese way of saying, "that's such bullshit".

(3) He also lies about his involvement in the CIA. That never happened and was exposed by Gary Goldman. There were rumors that he even tried to hire someone to kill Goldman. Seagal basically stole the stories of someone else, claiming it to be his.

(4) We asked Kisshumaru Ueshiba Doshu at a rare and private conference at Aikikai Hombu about his impression of Seagal...I can't remember if this was before or after his test...he just basically passed it off, but it was very obvious he wasn't impressed. In an interview with Doshu, he was asked about Seagal's techniques and he replied, "he speaks very good Japanese."

(5) He is rumored to have married into most of his rank, since his wife's (Miyako Fujitani) mother owned the dojo and had no related male head. Fujitani even stated in an interview once that the only reason he got his black belt is because the examiner fell asleep on the board. Now, I personally don't trust the statements of a woman scorned, so who knows the accuracy of her statement. And his SHICHIDAN rank was bought for a large sum of money...for the record I never stated he bought all his ranks...but this one he did, and from the observer account I received, it was horrible test.

(6) He is a notorious Hollywood loud-mouth braggart, which got him into trouble on the set of one of his movies, when one of his own stuntmen, Gene LeBell, challenged him and choked him out TWICE with the SAME technique. LeBell got fired and Seagal continued boasting how great he supposedly is.

(7) At a party in Atlanta (I think Atlanta), he tried to disrespect Dan Inosanto by slamming a nikyo on him when Inosanto was allowing it to be done to him. Inosanto's student, Francis Fong, was pissed. When Seagal approached Fong and asked him to "grab my wrist", Fong slapped him across the face and told him he'd fight him for real. Seagal says, "no, no...just grab my wrist". Fong slapped him again and challenged him directly for insulting his teacher. Seagal cowered back and refused. This tale come direct from the source, btw...

(8) On the set of "Fire Down Below", which was shot in the hometown of a good friend of mine in Kentucky, he was mouthing off. Some of the local rednecks challenged him and threatened to kill him. He cowered down and backed off...then refused to stay in that town during the movie shoot...they had to fly him in every morning from a major city SEVERAL miles away.

(9) And now he's just fat and sloppy, which gives you an idea how much he must train now.

The martial arts are built on humility, honor and respect. It is obvious these are not qualities that Seagal possesses. So, no, I don't respect him, nor do I think much of him as a martial artist.

If you ever watch a steven seagal movie, then you will know by looking at his technique that his is no poser. You do recognize that his is a skilled Aikido player, right?

I don't know from Gene Lebell, and Seagal may be an ahole, and a jerk, who cares. That is probably why you hear so many stories trying to discredit him.

The greatest aikido artist in the world could probably be choked out by a really good judo or jiu jitsu player. A bunch of rednecks threaten to kill you, and see if you wanna be a hero. I love these stories. Were the rednecks armed?

Seagal is a martial artist, and that does not mean he can beat everyone up. If he could, then he would have probably made his fortune in NHB fighting. No, he is a movie star, that happens to be, IMHO a very skilled aikido player. I personally don't think aikido is that great of a street fighting art, do you? If so you would see more aikido in the UFC.

Jiu jitsu is also good for defense.

nothing like having your katana and wakizashi around for a bar fight

Watch his fight scenes and watch the people in the background. Are the people walking around suddenly RUNNING at breakneck speeds whenever he does his techniques? That's because they speed up the film. The best thing I can say about his techniques is he seems to stay relaxed, but it's also not the street. And it is watching his techniques that I say they have flaws. Now, I'm sure his techniques will work well against his much smaller, willing ukes, but what about a bigger opponent? Sorry, buddy, I'm just not in agreement about how good he is.

I do think Aikido is a good street fighting art. I think 98% of the Aikido being taught out there is not. But true Aikido is, as taught by the founder. Come to my dojo, and I'll show you...not as a challenge, but as a learning experience.

And for the record: street fighting and NHB are VASTLY different. Good Aikido works great on the street...in NHB with non-committed attacks, you need to supplement/initiate with atemi (strikes) which are a part of Aikido...despite what many dojos believe. I used to do NHB and shootfighting for a short time and found the elements of Aikido priceless.

Boy Howdy! Lots of testosterone flying in this thread - plus some good discussion.

I'm no expert/master/whatever of any of the arts but I did do a bit of study in Okinawa with the RyuKyu (sp? been a while) styles. A form of chinese boxing that the Okinawans adapted into their own style including the use of basic farming/fishing tools to combat the Samari Warriors that would come to the island to test their skills. The original masters of these styles developed "fists of stone" with the ability to punch straight through the body armor of the samari and crush their heart.

It's boxing with grappling combined and very deadly. If you're into toe-2-toe fighting style check it out and find a good dojo. If/when a fight goes to the floor against an expert in this form/style it's usually the oponent falling limp and lifeless.

KEMPO? IDEAS?

Does anyone know anything about it? I have been thinking of Thai Boxing but I believe a combination would be the best. Here´s an extract from a web site:

"Goshin-Ryu Kempo is an all-round and effective Martial Art with it's foundations in Karate, Ju Jutsu, Taekwondo and Thai boxing. Technically, Kempo crosses the traditional boundaries you often see within the Martial Arts world. Here you find everything you normally need training in two or three different Arts to recieve; everything from kicks, punches and blocks to throws, grappling and how to break free of a hold. All this mixed together to suit us in the West and the social climate we live in today."

Willing Uke's fill your Dojo, I'm sure. I doubt very seriously your aikido dojo is training you for the street. Unless you go full contact, and the goal is to incapacitate your uke in the shortest time possible, then you are training in an art, not a self defense method.

Whatever training you took with you to NHB or shootfighting, Aikido was not the only system you practised. I love aikido, and of course the elements are priceless in handling your body, and an opponents body. By itself, I disagree that it is a good art for the street. Everyone on the street doesn't commit to attacks. They fake and do many things untrained fighters don't do.

jeetkunedo

Kung Fu
Wing Chun
TRADITIONAL WING CHUN KUNG FU!

IMHO

You don't know anything about my dojo, so don't try to make assumptions. My Sensei grew up fighting everyday in the streets, and he brings that point of view into the dojo to prepare students for the streets. Chances are what you've seen is the 98% of Aikido that is not street effective, but don't over generalize. Before you start throwing accusations around, take me up on my offer and come visit me. Again, this is not ego bullshit...just let me show you good Aikido in a friendly environment to open your eyes.

And how much do you think a beginner is going to learn by having a constant and completely resisting uke IN ANY ART? If you wanted to be a weight lifter, you don't start off by throwing 500 lbs on the bar...you have to work your way up to learn proper technique and build your muscles gradually. Martial arts is no different. So sure; there's going to be some cooperation at some point in the dojo...but only to the point to teaching students proper technique...not giving them techniques that won't work.

But I will agree with you on one point. While Aikido by itself I think is very powerful in the street, it's even more powerful when supplemented with more strikes (Aikido has strikes, but not as extensively as other striking arts) and ground work. So yeah, I'm not purely an Aikidoka, but I consider myself primarily an Aikidoka.

And since we're on the subject, let me dispell a common misconception about Aikido. Aikido LOVES fully committed attacks, but don't require them...You can do Aikido as an initial move on an unattacking uke if you read the situation that the fight is imminent.

As with any art, you'll find good and bad schools and real or fake instructors. Kempo is no different. But, real kempo is powerful.

My point exactly. Almost all martial arts work in a friendly environment.

Here are the rules. You don't know when I am going to do this, but, I assault you with or without a weapon (you don't get to know). My goal is to take your life, your goal is to protect it using only aikido. If you admit you would not, then we agree. Like I said, I love aikido (more aiki jiu jitsu) and think it is a wonderful art.


I assumed you had many willing uke's in your dojo, since you chastised Seagal for resisting in an earlier post. I have trained in enough Dojo's to know that you need willing uke's, but training in a dojo, and fighting under an adrenal stress situation are two very different things.

I'm a 10th dan black belt in fu ckoy mot hafuck ker! The most leathal martial art. It is originally from China. Practiced only by the ninjas.

if you want to know what martial arts to take, just look at what UFC and Pride fighters are using and go with that. These are the guys that actually know what the fuck is going on, and the early UFC's did style v. style, you can look up the results.

what you're going to find is that BJJ and Muay Thai are your best bets BY FAR....

Steven Segal LOL

I'm just saying I didn't want you to think I was challenging you. If that's something you want; I'm game for anything. And if you'll recall my previous post I chastised Seagal for actively trying to make his sensei look bad. A demonstration among your sensei's peers is NOT a time to check out his waza. Did you note that he also served as uke for my Sensei during that same round of demonstrations? The outcome was vastly different.

My personal goal is not to defend myself using "only aikido", because I'm not "only" an aikidoka. I asked my Sensei once that I was concerned that during situations, I couldn't "only use aikido". My Sensei's reply was, "If you could *only* use Aikido then you've trained wrong. You should train to react reflexively using the best techniques available from your arsenal for that situation. For that particular situation, maybe Aikido is the best...maybe karate...maybe a combination. But the point is: your body should respond with maximum efficiency and effectiveness, using whatever techniques are appropriate, IF you've trained correctly. You are not purely an Aikidoka, so your training isn't to respond purely with Aikido...not if you're in proper mindset (mushin) and responding reflexively."

And you're right: The dojo and the street are very different situations. The funny thing is, the street is usually easier. When ukes in the dojo resist, they do so with knowledge of the techniques. The guys in the street have no idea, nor do they usually have the reluctance to commit out of fear of the oncoming fall.

Chinese Ninjas

NHB and street fighting are very different. But I agree that BJJ and Muay Thai are very effectively systems. I wouldn't want to be exclusively BJJ, since you are rarely guaranteed a one-on-one fight in the street, but it's an absolutely vital supplemental art and a fantastic primary if you have some stand-up as well. Muay Thai is awesome for infighting especially.