Originally posted by Soul_Rebel Mainly it is used to keep the surfers more and not to protect content.
So im totally wrong and instead of pissing the surfers off they actually love this system and rebill month after month while knowing somewhere else its theirs forever once downloaded?
Originally posted by Battuss You mustve missed my point. If this is about protecting content then why is everybody going after the 1 month option where the surfer wont be able to access his downloaded content anymore.
Explain that please. Protecting content doesnt seem to be the real issue here.
I think it is a reasonable enough thing to do.
Why should the surfers be able to download 100's of movies for 40$ and watch them for ever?
That is a pretty sweet deal for them and a bad deal for us
I think that allowing them to watch as many movies as they want for $35-$40 a month is very reasonable, as long as they pay that every month.
Ofcourse websites have to make that clear to the surfer so he doesn't think it is like on most sites were he can download all he wants and keep it for ever.
DRM is the best thing that could possibly have happened in this industry, maybe rebills will go up, and file-sharing go down, and there for increase new signups, and more rebills
the variables shoud be set for a specific amount of time, definitely....but if a surfer downloads content he SHOULD be able to watch for a determined amount of time...even if he cancels.....now if the surfer needs to watch the same fucking clips over and over again forever....that is just stupid...how many times can you watch the same clip(or movie) anyway?
You should set the DRM on exclusive movies produced for your site...but have an archive of movies..say older than 90 days...that the surfer can download and keep forever...just DRM the CURRENT new stuff....it seems that would work to me....
Originally posted by KC If the content is unique and high quality, surfers will stay and recur DRM or not.
The more unique the content the more reason to use DRM.
Approx 30% of surfers cancel a recurring membership before even logging into the members area.
DRM is a must, and pretty much every decent exclusive site is either already using it or in the process of setting it up, takes a while to encode video especially when you have tons of it.
Its our fault that we got surfers used to free porn but that will change, yeah shitty non exclusive content will always be out there without DRM but who cares about those sites.
Webmasters will win and its only a matter of time before surfers will get used to this and everyone will benifit.
Only a matter of time, I have yet to talk to anyone who has been using it for a while that regrets it.
Originally posted by EscortBiz Approx 30% of surfers cancel a recurring membership before even logging into the members area.
DRM is a must, and pretty much every decent exclusive site is either already using it or in the process of setting it up, takes a while to encode video especially when you have tons of it.
Its our fault that we got surfers used to free porn but that will change, yeah shitty non exclusive content will always be out there without DRM but who cares about those sites.
Webmasters will win and its only a matter of time before surfers will get used to this and everyone will benifit.
Only a matter of time, I have yet to talk to anyone who has been using it for a while that regrets it.
I agree 100%
Jupiter Hosting, Inc.
Vice President, Business Development
kc (AT) jupiterhosting.com
Originally posted by EscortBiz Approx 30% of surfers cancel a recurring membership before even logging into the members area.
Yes but what's that got to do with anything? A lot of people don't like recurring memberships but if you treat them good and have a good product they come back and join over and over again anyway.
Originally posted by William-Xfactor Yes but what's that got to do with anything? A lot of people don't like recurring memberships but if you treat them good and have a good product they come back and join over and over again anyway.
DRM will remind them that membership is up
We can argue all day and night the bottom line its here to stay
apple itunes drm got cracked real fast what's to think this wont? When it comes to anything digital it can be cracked and it will piss a lot of people off. It's going to be interesting to see how this all comes off....I think i'll try it on 1 of my sites and have a similar site without it and promote them exactly the same then post a report here after a few months...
No I dont, what I do know is that I find my exclusive content all over the place, kazaa, different sites that upload it some in coutries or with hosts that dont care etc. and it simply became a nightmare.
You are correct EscortBiz. It's simple math really. Protect what's yours and maximize your ROI.
Protect Your Video and Audio Content Today. Stop Losing Money. Ask me how
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Personally i think its ripping the surfers off. Not only that its scaring them from signing up for a site again in the future.
Also personally i would do a chargeback if i find out after a month i cant access the content i paid for. Unless theres a big fat link on the signup page about it ofcourse, then its my own fault.
So if you rent a movie on PPV on cable or satelite do you charge it back since you are only allowed to view it once?
Do you chargeback a video store rental because you can't keep the movie forever?
Do you ask for your money back at a restaurant because you can't keeping eating there for free ocne you paid for your first meal?
What is wrong with using DRM on your videos? It makes perfect sense - you protect your content, you can retain members longer becasue they will lose access to stuff they've downloaded, and it keep your movies that you dropped your money into from making the rounds on file sharing networks.
If I would own a paysite I would use DRM, too. With the average broadband internet access of Joe Surfer and a download manager he can download the whole member site in 2-10 days. Why should this membership reccur?
DRM is like a Pay TV solution. The surfer doesn't buy the content, has the right to see it if he is paying for. I can imagine that a surfer is downloading the most of the content in the first days of his membership. If he has the vids on his hard disk and he is trying to cancel the membership he could get a special offer to keep the membership and a DRM licence (like $5-15$ per month)
A lot of surfers share the paysite content in peer to peer networks. If the content is DRM protected and the licence is set to never expiring peer to peer users couldn't use the movies without paying for this.
Regarding the safety of the drm stuff: Microsoft has invested a lot of money in DRM. If there is a gap in the security of DRM Microsoft would close them really fast.
When you spend millions of dollars producing content like we do, protecting it is important. DRM is an awesome way to do so. However, if you want webmasters to be able to use the episodes for content, you need to be able to provide them with mpgs that they can cut up for galleries.
That said, we are doing both. All webmasters can download all the episodes to build galleries.
I wish I could see some charge back statistics between sites that use only DRM videos and sites that do not. I'm willing to bet sites that use only DRM content set to expire with the membership, consistently have a CB ratio higher than sites that do not use DRM.
I can buy copy dvds here for 50 cents but i buy the originals. if the originals only let me watch the film say 2-3 times, id stop buying and buy copies.
I've said it before and i'll say it again... if you have lots of good quality exclusive content, then DRM works well - providing you inform the surfer that the site uses DRM and how it works before they part with there money.
The DRM rules are very flexible and you can be as mean or as lax as you want it to be.
As for the increase in chargebacks...
Well, i can only can say this then. I cant wait for all you guys to start "protecting your content" in other words, limit his viewing pleasure to 1 month.
Like another guy said before in this thread, i will place a huge fat link on my tours DRM FREE CONTENT. Im happy to take over your pissed members. So actually i dont give a fuck if you all want to fuck your surfers over. My surfers can download a vid and watch that same vid for 6 years if they want.
Originally posted by Lensman When you spend millions of dollars producing content like we do, protecting it is important. DRM is an awesome way to do so. However, if you want webmasters to be able to use the episodes for content, you need to be able to provide them with mpgs that they can cut up for galleries.
That said, we are doing both. All webmasters can download all the episodes to build galleries.
I totally understand that but what does that have to do with killing the surfers license after a month? He cannot share the vids anyway since its protected.
Once again, most people in this thread dont seem to get my point. They keep talking about protecting their content but in the meantime they kill the surfers license after a month. Thats something totally different than protecting.
Originally posted by Battuss Will the surfer be able to watch them after the membership expires?
"watch them after the membership expires?"
What is the point of having a membership site then? Download all your movies on your high speed line then cancel in a day or so, then all that material goes onto the trading system, now that makes sense...right?
DRM is the future, it works for us, its making us money now with options for those who are not members now, they are re joining and pay per viewing movies.
Originally posted by SomeCreep I wish I could see some charge back statistics between sites that use only DRM videos and sites that do not. I'm willing to bet sites that use only DRM content set to expire with the membership, consistently have a CB ratio higher than sites that do not use DRM.
Well first of all if a freeloader is thinking he can pay $3.95 and download all a sites content in 3 days then that's the type of customer sponsors don't need. When all paysites are using DRM( because it makes sense ) then Joe Freeloader won't have much choice but to fork over that monthly membership.
Also how come a surfer understands when he pays $8 for a PPV movie from the Spice channel he gets to see that movie ONCE. How come this same surfer understands when he rents a porno at the video store he has to bring it back the next day. But yet some the concept of not being able to see content after his membership to a porn site expires is beyond his grasp?
By the way if he tried to chargeback, well I assume this same technology can tell which computer downloaded what content so I wonder how Visa will look at a guy trying to get his $3.95 back after it's been proven he's downloaded 50 gigs of porn?
I will say that a good solution would be for that website to offer the surfer to keep that movie forever for a fee even after his membership expires. Kind of like buying a DVD after you've rented it.
The reason why tgp2 failed is because it was impossible to change the whole tgp system. Surfers who hit tgp2 sites found out there are plenty of other sites (normal tgps) that show 16 pics, so they had no reason to ever to return to a tgp2 site.
I see the same future for drm. Its impossible to get all the paysites to use this so unless your content is so damn good that the surfer wants to pay month after month for the same content you will lose sales to paysites who dont use drm. At the least not the ones who fuck the surfer after a month.
So once again, i cant be bothered really that all you people are so innovative and spending 1000's to fuck your surfers.
Originally posted by GatorB Well first of all if a freeloader is thinking he can pay $3.95 and download all a sites content in 3 days then that's the type of customer sponsors don't need. When all paysites are using DRM( because it makes sense ) then Joe Freeloader won't have much choice but to fork over that monthly membership.
And there is where you are totally wrong and why this system will fail.
You can write 10 pages here why drm is so good but simply not everybody will use it to stop the license after a month. And with that in mind the system is pretty worthless. Except for protecting content ofcourse. But for getting the member to rebill more. No.
Originally posted by GatorB Well first of all if a freeloader is thinking he can pay $3.95 and download all a sites content in 3 days then that's the type of customer sponsors don't need. When all paysites are using DRM( because it makes sense ) then Joe Freeloader won't have much choice but to fork over that monthly membership.
Also how come a surfer understands when he pays $8 for a PPV movie from the Spice channel he gets to see that movie ONCE. How come this same surfer understands when he rents a porno at the video store he has to bring it back the next day. But yet some the concept of not being able to see content after his membership to a porn site expires is beyond his grasp?
By the way if he tried to chargeback, well I assume this same technology can tell which computer downloaded what content so I wonder how Visa will look at a guy trying to get his $3.95 back after it's been proven he's downloaded 50 gigs of porn?
I will say that a good solution would be for that website to offer the surfer to keep that movie forever for a fee even after his membership expires. Kind of like buying a DVD after you've rented it.
Originally posted by Battuss And there is where you are totally wrong and why this system will fail.
You can write 10 pages here why drm is so good but simply not everybody will use it to stop the license after a month. And with that in mind the system is pretty worthless. Except for protecting content ofcourse. But for getting the member to rebill more. No.
Battuss....you keep saying "fail and worthless" have you set up all your movies or your pay sites with DRM yet are you speaking from experience? I am just curious because we have set up all of our movies and the DRM system is making us money, and I am speaking from experience!
Originally posted by MikeHawk Battuss....you keep saying "fail and worthless" have you set up all your movies or your pay sites with DRM yet are you speaking from experience? I am just curious because we have set up all of our movies and the DRM system is making us money, and I am speaking from experience!
What are you talking about dude? What does that have to do with anything?
I know it can protect my movies, i know i can fuck my surfers over with it. Why do i need to install it to back up my theory.
So what are you claiming, your retention is better than ever because you cancel their license after a month?
Can you show stats? From before drm and after drm installed?
Is your content THAT amazing that the surfers keep rebilling month after month to see the same fucking movie they already downloaded 3 months ago?
Like it or not, we have spent the last 8+ years educating the surfer that he can download content and enjoy it for ever. It doesn't matter what we might have done if DRM technology had existed from the start, we have established his expectations. Comparisons with other industries and other media are irrelevant.
If we want to change that now we can, at least we should have the sense to do it gradually. Those who are planning to make an immediate switch and expire movies with the membership: how many are going to make that clear to would-be members? I can near guarantee not too many, because they know damn well the surfers won't like it. Who thinks surfers are going to like it any more when an expiry date is built into a movie and they weren't warned?
So Gator, you are honestly saying this is different than tgp2?
With a bit of luck 50% of the companies install drm in the next 2 years and 50% wont. You are really saying that those 50% who installed are gonna do better business than me? Theyre gonna get more rebills than me because they use drm? Stop blindly praising the system and think with your brain for a minute.
Originally posted by jayeff Like it or not, we have spent the last 8+ years educating the surfer that he can download content and enjoy it for ever. It doesn't matter what we might have done if DRM technology had existed from the start, we have established his expectations. Comparisons with other industries and other media are irrelevant.
If we want to change that now we can, at least we should have the sense to do it gradually. Those who are planning to make an immediate switch and expire movies with the membership: how many are going to make that clear to would-be members? I can near guarantee not too many, because they know damn well the surfers won't like it. Who thinks surfers are going to like it any more when an expiry date is built into a movie and they weren't warned?
Exactly, people keep comparing it with rental movies and stuff. You cant compare it, its something totally different. Weve been having this system since the first paysite out there. To think a 100% change in direction will not only NOT piss the surfer off but also will show as an increase in rebilling is crazy. But once again, im not stopping you. I hereby advice you to use drm and kill the content license after a month. Id love to have your members.
Originally posted by Battuss
I see the same future for drm. Its impossible to get all the paysites to use this so unless your content is so damn good that the surfer wants to pay month after month for the same content you will lose sales to paysites who dont use drm. At the least not the ones who fuck the surfer after a month.
TGP2 failed because webmasters refused to embrace it. PERIOD. If I own a TGP2 that has 500 five pic galleries and a regular TGP has say 100 16 pic galleries, who has more content? Which site is a surfer more likely to go back too?
As ar as DRM well paysite will use it because it saves them money. Once again a surfer that has broadband that downlaods all your content in 3 days and then puts it on Kazza is a surfer you don't need.
Funny how a year or so ago when some sponors lowered payouts all I heard was "They won't be successful because everyone else will still pay $35 per sign up" MaxCash even bragged about they were NEVER lowering their payouts. Well guess what happend there on Aug 1st. Sponsors are finally realizing their insane business models were doomed to failure and are finally making changes.
Another point. Go download a regular movie from one of the movie websites like MovieLink and CinemaNow they use DRM. You can't keep a copy forever. Yet surfers get this concept for mainstream but not porn?
Movielink uses Digital Rights Management (DRM) software, which is a set of technologies used by content owners and providers to protect copyrights. DRM encrypts digital media content and limits access to only those people who have acquired the right to play the content.
Originally posted by Battuss Exactly, people keep comparing it with rental movies and stuff. You cant compare it, its something totally different. Weve been having this system since the first paysite out there. To think a 100% change in direction will not only NOT piss the surfer off but also will show as an increase in rebilling is crazy. But once again, im not stopping you. I hereby advice you to use drm and kill the content license after a month. Id love to have your members.
Yes it is the SAME. Most mainstream site used to be 100% free now they aren't. hell even ESPN.com now charges tyou to read artcle for aboyt 15-20% of their articles. You can't even get Mel Kippers opinion on who will be drafted in the nFL without forking over cash. All that stuff used to be free. yet people sing up for this "Insdier" thing everyday.
I play FF at NFL.com. In 2002 it was FREE. Last year they wanted $15. Guess what hundreds of 1000's still signed up for it like me.
Listening to NFL or MLB games on internet radio used to be FREE now you have to PAY to listen. Those sports must be getting subscribers because they are still charging.
I remember when people used to say cable would fail because no one in their right mind would PAY to watch TV.
Originally posted by GatorB TGP2 failed because webmasters refused to embrace it. PERIOD. If I own a TGP2 that has 500 five pic galleries and a regular TGP has say 100 16 pic galleries, who has more content? Which site is a surfer more likely to go back too?
As ar as DRM well paysite will use it because it saves them money. Once again a surfer that has broadband that downlaods all your content in 3 days and then puts it on Kazza is a surfer you don't need.
Funny how a year or so ago when some sponors lowered payouts all I heard was "They won't be successful because everyone else will still pay $35 per sign up" MaxCash even bragged about they were NEVER lowering their payouts. Well guess what happend there on Aug 1st. Sponsors are finally realizing their insane business models were doomed to failure and are finally making changes.
Another point. Go download a regular movie from one of the movie websites like MovieLink and CinemaNow they use DRM. You can't keep a copy forever. Yet surfers get this concept for mainstream but not porn?
Movielink uses Digital Rights Management (DRM) software, which is a set of technologies used by content owners and providers to protect copyrights. DRM encrypts digital media content and limits access to only those people who have acquired the right to play the content.
I already said you cant compare mainstream to adult. The history of both is too different but yes you seem to fail to see that, you only want to get your right, ignoring the facts.
"If I own a TGP2 that has 500 five pic galleries and a regular TGP has say 100 16 pic galleries, who has more content? Which site is a surfer more likely to go back too?"
Why do you think this will happen with drm? Give me 1 good reason? I didnt happen with tgp2, what makes you think it will happen now?
Show me stats gator, show me your rebilling is better after installing drm. Once again, im not saying it is impossible but if paysites want to rely on this business model in the future they better get some goddamn good content.
Talking about mainstream, you keep comparing it with rental. I i buy a dvd its mine right? Can you imagine that dvd stop working after a month suddenly? Lets say 50% of the dvd providers switch to this model in the hope i will be buynig the same dvd over and over again. What you think im gonna do? How about finding a shop where i can get the same dvd for a lifetime? No you ofcourse would pay over and over for the same dvd again right Gator?
Originally posted by GatorB Yes it is the SAME. Most mainstream site used to be 100% free now they aren't. hell even ESPN.com now charges tyou to read artcle for aboyt 15-20% of their articles. You can't even get Mel Kippers opinion on who will be drafted in the nFL without forking over cash. All that stuff used to be free. yet people sing up for this "Insdier" thing everyday.
I play FF at NFL.com. In 2002 it was FREE. Last year they wanted $15. Guess what hundreds of 1000's still signed up for it like me.
Listening to NFL or MLB games on internet radio used to be FREE now you have to PAY to listen. Those sports must be getting subscribers because they are still charging.
I remember when people used to say cable would fail because no one in their right mind would PAY to watch TV.
DUDE stop fucking being so fucking blind. Ofcourse you will pay for cable because there is no free cable. But this is the fucking internet, for every site there are a million other sites. There will be no massive switch to drm. There will be plenty of companies not fucking the surfer over. There is your big flaw, why do you keep ignoring that? Oh wait, because your arm is in the drm guys asses so deep you have shitstains on your neck.
Originally posted by GatorB Once again a surfer that has broadband that downlaods all your content in 3 days and then puts it on Kazza is a surfer you don't need.
Who is going to argue with you? But the main issue isn't whether people should use DRM, it is how they will use it. If sites simply prevent unauthorized access and copying, fine. But if the past is any guide, a lot won't stop there and the outcome will be thousands more customers feeling they got burned.
Originally posted by Battuss DUDE stop fucking being so fucking blind. Ofcourse you will pay for cable because there is no free cable. But this is the fucking internet, for every site there are a million other sites. There will be no massive switch to drm. There will be plenty of companies not fucking the surfer over. There is your big flaw, why do you keep ignoring that? Oh wait, because your arm is in the drm guys asses so deep you have shitstains on your neck.
Are you stupid or just 12? When cable first came out people said it would fail because people had been used to FREE tv for oh about 30 years. So no YOU are fucking blind to how the internet is changing. Get you head out of your ass for once.
Originally posted by jayeff Who is going to argue with you? But the main issue isn't whether people should use DRM, it is how they will use it. If sites simply prevent unauthorized access and copying, fine. But if the past is any guide, a lot won't stop there and the outcome will be thousands more customers feeling they got burned.
He will ignore anything that makes sense. He just spent a shitload on protecting his content and hes praying the whole adult scene will follow him asap because otherwise he fucked up pretty bad. So ofcourse he avoids the facts.
Originally posted by GatorB No YOU are fucking blind to how the internet is changing. Get you head out of your ass for once.
Proof me wrong:
DUDE stop fucking being so fucking blind. Ofcourse you will pay for cable because there is no free cable. But this is the fucking internet, for every site there are a million other sites. There will be no massive switch to drm. There will be plenty of companies not fucking the surfer over. There is your big flaw, why do you keep ignoring that? Oh wait, because your arm is in the drm guys asses so deep you have shitstains on your neck.
Tell me why its gonna be different than i just described. Please. Oh how about some stats to show the increase in rebilling after the drm install.
Originally posted by GatorB Are you stupid or just 12? When cable first came out people said it would fail because people had been used to FREE tv for oh about 30 years. So no YOU are fucking blind to how the internet is changing. Get you head out of your ass for once.
Do you understand the difference between 100 cable providers and 500.000 paysites? If no then i give up. Fuck youre annoying today.
Originally posted by jayeff Who is going to argue with you? But the main issue isn't whether people should use DRM, it is how they will use it. If sites simply prevent unauthorized access and copying, fine. But if the past is any guide, a lot won't stop there and the outcome will be thousands more customers feeling they got burned.
You know these people that feel "burned" are the same ones that get pissed off when they can't get a 2nd free sample at Baskin Robbins, and frankly I don't give a rats ass about people that want porn welfare.
Originally posted by Battuss Do you understand the difference between 100 cable providers and 500.000 paysites? If no then i give up. Fuck youre annoying today.
You are retarded or you are under 25 and don't remember they days of no cable. You obviously don't get my simple point thus you are usless to try to talk logically. "PROOF" you wrong? Time will do that.
Originally posted by jayeff "Welfare" that costs them $30-$40+ a month? Whatever...
Um people like Butthead are proposing letting surfers download 500 DVDS worth of content for $3.95 and keeping it forever. Hey if I could go to the local porn shop and keep 500 DVDs for $30-$40 I'd say that's a great deal. For $40 I usually only get 8-10 moviesa nd I have to bring them back the next day. By the way I can't copy those movies either beause they're protected but hey this is the internet so it's SUPOSED to be different right?
Battuss, you're saying that DRM fucks members over, i totally disagree with that. how does it fuck member over? if member joins the site, on the tour it says that our site uses DRM technology, you as a member get full access to our content for the period of your membership?
ofcourse if you advertise that they get everything in unlimited amounts and can keep your content for as long as they'd like, and then as a member you find out you have a limited access you'd feel screwed.
sites with unique, hot content ARE protecting their propetry AND establishing proper terms of use of their properties, that what DRM stands for - Digital Rights Management.
Battuss you are very annoyning dude, you are blind also,
sounds like you are arguiing just for the sake of it, you make no sense with your bullshit.
the fact is - paysites using DRM make more money. All the big guys are switching to DRM now and because of it soon DRM sites will dominate overall. All you small guys can put "DRM FREE" sales pitch all the way you want, but until those who control the majority of traffic switch to DRM, DRM will win.
You can keep arguing since you like it so much but it won't change the fact that DRM is the future of digital business.
Ok somebody show me some stats from before drm and after drm that will clearly show that the rebilling is better. That will shut me up and proof me wrong.
For some reason i have the feeling im not gonna see any stats in this thread.
Originally posted by Battuss Ok somebody show me some stats from before drm and after drm that will clearly show that the rebilling is better. That will shut me up and proof me wrong.
For some reason i have the feeling im not gonna see any stats in this thread.
I don't think that there will be any. I for one wouldn't like that shit attached to a movie that I wanted to see.
And you people keep comparing this shit with ppv movies and cable. Are y'all blind? Don't you see your local cable company offering Digital Video Recording? Why would they offer DVR? It's because some people want to tape their favorite movie or tv show and watch it later. That's the big selling point that cable companies are using to push that technology...Also, you can use a good old VCR to tape ANY movie that you watch on television and watch it over and over again.
DRM won't be like that until some people can "tape" their favorite episodes for future viewing.....
I like to watch movies on my laptop. When I go visit my friend at her job, she requests that I bring my laptop with me so that we can watch some movies. Since there is no internet connection there, that means no movies and if their are no movies, then I DON'T GET A FUCKING HANDJOB!
I might want to disconnect my laptop from this cable modem and jack off upstairs in the tv room. I can't do that with DMR....I can think of so many ways that a video license would fuck up my viewing experience, that I won't use it until:
#1 The cost of DMR comes down
#2 People can PROVE consistently better rebills using DMR
I don't like fucking the surfer BUT if someone on here can PROVE that their rebills got better AFTER they implemented this technology, then I'll be more willing to try it. But so far, people are just talking about "numbers" without backing it up.
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