Non US Webmaster's view on 2257

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  • Dirty Dane
    Sick Fuck
    • Feb 2004
    • 9491
    #51
    Originally posted by Manga1
    There have been many precedents on this. I'm not making it up.
    Originally posted by broke
    They just did.


    Links please

      Comment

      • Manga1
        Confirmed User
        • Oct 2001
        • 952
        #52
        Originally posted by bhutocracy
        interstate though right? Anyways.. there is no duristiction over someone following the law of their own country so...
        Not only interstate, this has been applied internationally in several jurisdictions.

        There is the example of Jay Cohen who was running an online sportsbook out of Antigua with all servers, employees, and operations there. A New York judge decided it didn't matter where the server was and that it was where the site was downloaded that established jurisdiction. You can read the whole story here http://www.freejaycohen.com/RealStoryJayPg.html

        There's been other cases outside the US as well. This one in the UK established jurisdiction over an American in a libel case, "The material in question was stored on websites based in California, and related to another proceeding taking place in New York. The issue was whether the American defendant could be served outside of the UK. It was accepted that the tort had occurred in the UK, because in England, the tort of libel is committed where the publication takes place, and Internet text is published at the place it is downloaded."
        http://www.heydary.com/internet-laws/20041104.html#4

        And this one in Canada where the Washington Post was sued for libel and the province of Ontario established jurisdiction because "due to the fact the allegedly defamatory statements were published online and therefore accessible in Ontario, the Court had jurisdiction over the defendant."
        http://www.heydary.com/internet-laws/20040205.html#1

          Comment

          • Manga1
            Confirmed User
            • Oct 2001
            • 952
            #53
            Originally posted by Dirty Dane


            Links please
            Read my previous post

              Comment

              • bhutocracy
                Not making A Comeback
                • Dec 2001
                • 10218
                #54
                Originally posted by broke
                Sorry it's you -- but Christ almighty.

                Do you honestly think that you could import cars in violation of US law (to the US and say, "hey -- it's legal here"?)? Hookers? Beer? Weapons? Kids toys? Beef?

                Wait -- I get it. Data packets are not subject to trade agreements, but everything else is...

                Do you honestly think the Hun will be pulled before the DOJ for hosting beast porn who's packets are being sent to US homes?
                You think the DOJ will seriously be allowed to become Team America World Police by the NL government?
                Last edited by bhutocracy; 06-07-2005, 08:14 PM.

                  Comment

                  • bhutocracy
                    Not making A Comeback
                    • Dec 2001
                    • 10218
                    #55
                    Originally posted by Manga1
                    Not only interstate, this has been applied internationally in several jurisdictions.

                    There is the example of Jay Cohen who was running an online sportsbook out of Antigua with all servers, employees, and operations there. A New York judge decided it didn't matter where the server was and that it was where the site was downloaded that established jurisdiction. You can read the whole story here http://www.freejaycohen.com/RealStoryJayPg.html

                    An American Citizen committing crimes tried by an American court.

                    Originally posted by Manga1
                    There's been other cases outside the US as well. This one in the UK established jurisdiction over an American in a libel case, "The material in question was stored on websites based in California, and related to another proceeding taking place in New York. The issue was whether the American defendant could be served outside of the UK. It was accepted that the tort had occurred in the UK, because in England, the tort of libel is committed where the publication takes place, and Internet text is published at the place it is downloaded."
                    http://www.heydary.com/internet-laws/20041104.html#4
                    Libel is an offence both in the US and the UK


                    Originally posted by Manga1
                    And this one in Canada where the Washington Post was sued for libel and the province of Ontario established jurisdiction because "due to the fact the allegedly defamatory statements were published online and therefore accessible in Ontario, the Court had jurisdiction over the defendant."
                    http://www.heydary.com/internet-laws/20040205.html#1
                    Libel is an offence both in the US and the Canada.


                    You think China is going to be able to sentence an American to the gulags because they broke Chinese Laws and published an anti-chinese article on their website?

                    I'm not saying it's 110% super duper safe but they would be setting LARGE precedents.. precedents that will be fought and fought hard.

                      Comment

                      • WarChild
                        Let slip the dogs of war.
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 17263
                        #56
                        Originally posted by bhutocracy
                        Do you honestly think the Hun will be pulled before the DOJ for hosting beast porn who's packets are being sent to US homes?
                        You think the DOJ will seriously be allowed to become Team America World Police by the NL government?
                        Why doesn't the US DOJ turn over US webmasters in droves to China. I mean, by the same logic, the moment a Chinese national buys porn from a US website, the website's owner is guilty of a crime in China, right?
                        .

                          Comment

                          • broke
                            Confirmed User
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 4501
                            #57
                            Originally posted by bhutocracy
                            Do you honestly think the Hun will be pulled before the DOJ for hosting beast porn who's packets are being sent to US homes?
                            You think the DOJ will seriously be allowed to become Team America World Police by the NL government?

                            No.

                            Did you read anything else I've said besides the quoted partial statement?
                            Perfect Gonzo

                              Comment

                              • Damian_Maxcash
                                So Fucking Banned
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 12745
                                #58
                                Originally posted by Manga1
                                Not only interstate, this has been applied internationally in several jurisdictions.

                                There is the example of Jay Cohen who was running an online sportsbook out of Antigua with all servers, employees, and operations there. A New York judge decided it didn't matter where the server was and that it was where the site was downloaded that established jurisdiction. You can read the whole story here http://www.freejaycohen.com/RealStoryJayPg.html

                                There's been other cases outside the US as well. This one in the UK established jurisdiction over an American in a libel case, "The material in question was stored on websites based in California, and related to another proceeding taking place in New York. The issue was whether the American defendant could be served outside of the UK. It was accepted that the tort had occurred in the UK, because in England, the tort of libel is committed where the publication takes place, and Internet text is published at the place it is downloaded."
                                http://www.heydary.com/internet-laws/20041104.html#4

                                And this one in Canada where the Washington Post was sued for libel and the province of Ontario established jurisdiction because "due to the fact the allegedly defamatory statements were published online and therefore accessible in Ontario, the Court had jurisdiction over the defendant."
                                http://www.heydary.com/internet-laws/20040205.html#1

                                Interesting, but in all cases the 'other' country had corresponding laws or was for other reasons capitulating to Washington's requests.

                                The idea that I could be in any trouble for breaking a law in foreign country that would actually require me to break the law here just dosnt wash.

                                  Comment

                                  • broke
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Aug 2003
                                    • 4501
                                    #59
                                    Originally posted by WarChild
                                    Why doesn't the US DOJ turn over US webmasters in droves to China. I mean, by the same logic, the moment a Chinese national buys porn from a US website, the website's owner is guilty of a crime in China, right?
                                    1. The DOJ doesn't have the authority.
                                    2. That's why I had China blocked since I started.

                                    I don't feel my local rights usurp the rights of other nations.



                                    Bad buisness decision... maybe. But I can still go to China.
                                    Perfect Gonzo

                                      Comment

                                      • taibo
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • May 2005
                                        • 3720
                                        #60
                                        i predict another 2257 thread

                                          Comment

                                          • bhutocracy
                                            Not making A Comeback
                                            • Dec 2001
                                            • 10218
                                            #61
                                            Originally posted by broke
                                            No.

                                            Did you read anything else I've said besides the quoted partial statement?
                                            Oh I read it, it's just if data packets is importing then the hun is importing animal porn.

                                            Look, I'm also not suggesting that non US people don't become 2257 Compliant, why be the test case? lol.

                                              Comment

                                              • broke
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Aug 2003
                                                • 4501
                                                #62
                                                Originally posted by bhutocracy
                                                Oh I read it, it's just if data packets is importing then the hun is importing animal porn.
                                                Fair enough...

                                                I think people are equating my stance to the DOJ's stance. That's just not the case. I'm just trying to inform and warn people. Just like I wouldn't advise Patrick to go to any US shows after the 23rd....
                                                Perfect Gonzo

                                                  Comment

                                                  • GatorB
                                                    The Demon & 12clicks
                                                    • Oct 2001
                                                    • 18208
                                                    #63
                                                    Originally posted by broke
                                                    I think people are equating my stance to the DOJ's stance. That's just not the case. I'm just trying to inform and warn people. Just like I wouldn't advise Patrick to go to any US shows after the 23rd....
                                                    Hey that all I was trying to do and got nothing but trouble from people mostly Euros. Got call idiot and worse and got treated really bad. Fuck it, there is no sue trying to explain things to them. They are too defensive to actually try to udnerstand your point. My point was EXACTLY the same as yours. I will say so far they have been nicer to you.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • bhutocracy
                                                        Not making A Comeback
                                                        • Dec 2001
                                                        • 10218
                                                        #64
                                                        Originally posted by broke
                                                        Fair enough...

                                                        I think people are equating my stance to the DOJ's stance. That's just not the case. I'm just trying to inform and warn people. Just like I wouldn't advise Patrick to go to any US shows after the 23rd....
                                                        Oh yeah.. you'd be silly to be complacent about it no matter where you are. I sure as fuck wouldn't ignore the new 2257 regs even in NL - why go out of your way to break another country's law especially one that provides so much income?

                                                        I'm just finding it very hard to see how they can create a precedent that would allow anyone from any country to be at the mercy of any other country's crazy laws. Especially from countries not entered into free trade agreements or other trade contracts that may specify internet use. Some countries won't mind a ruling that applies both ways (libel) but when it comes to extraditing 500 of their own citizens for something legal? And what of other countries not in the mood to be pushed around in a one way manner outside of the close knit western US/UK/CA/AU etc?

                                                        Then again thats probably because im not a lawyer
                                                        Last edited by bhutocracy; 06-07-2005, 08:59 PM.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • rednet
                                                            Registered User
                                                            • Aug 2004
                                                            • 82
                                                            #65
                                                            Originally posted by broke
                                                            I don't disagree with you. However, the DOJ does...


                                                            What have I said that's so horrid? Did I tell you to stop doing what you're doing? Did I try to convince you to stop doing something? I gave you the DOJ's stance and advised people not complying to avoid US soil.
                                                            the true is the essence of the "US soil" definition...

                                                              Comment

                                                              • ULVideo
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Oct 2004
                                                                • 405
                                                                #66
                                                                Anyone who does not comply with 2257 shouldn't be surprised if their cash flow stream from US sources gets "interrupted". If you don't care about US sales, then don't worry about it, but even if you don't get extradited/prosecutes in the US, I think there's a really good chance US DOJ is going to be able to get other countries processors to stop processing transactions for non-compliant websites. And I think you can forget about Visa and Mastercard, even if you've got a merchant acount. If you don't need them, then you're ok. But who doesn't need them (at all)?

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Damian_Maxcash
                                                                    So Fucking Banned
                                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                                    • 12745
                                                                    #67
                                                                    Originally posted by ULVideo
                                                                    Anyone who does not comply with 2257 shouldn't be surprised if their cash flow stream from US sources gets "interrupted". If you don't care about US sales, then don't worry about it, but even if you don't get extradited/prosecutes in the US, I think there's a really good chance US DOJ is going to be able to get other countries processors to stop processing transactions for non-compliant websites. And I think you can forget about Visa and Mastercard, even if you've got a merchant acount. If you don't need them, then you're ok. But who doesn't need them (at all)?
                                                                    What you say may or may not happen, but even suggesting that people may be extradited is a joke. It wont happen, its one area of the law that I have, unfortunatly, first hand knowledge of.

                                                                    We are all going to be affected by this but no-one outside the US should worry about criminal procedings. Of course, that said, dont plan on going to the US for a holiday anytime soon.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • V_RocKs
                                                                        Damn Right I Kiss Ass!
                                                                        • Nov 2003
                                                                        • 32449
                                                                        #68

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • NTSS
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Mar 2005
                                                                            • 5688
                                                                            #69
                                                                            Originally posted by WarChild
                                                                            There seems to be a lot of animosity between US webmasters and non US webmasters over 2257. People seem to be getting angry that non US citizens are taking your new 2257 regulations a little lighter than some of you would like.

                                                                            As a Canadian, I'm sorry your government was able to pass such a ridiculous law. I stand with you in fighting it, and I'll even help fund Free Speech Coalition to everybody's benefit. Please try to understand if non Americans could make these laws vanish, we would without a doubt.

                                                                            That being said, I will bind my business by the laws of the land that I live in and operate my business out of, Canada. Much as I won't be bound by China's laws banning pornograhphy all together. I refuse to be made a record keeper by the US DOJ. I'm sorry this upsets some US webmasters but that's really out of my control. Please don't confuse this as disrespect for your plight.

                                                                            Please understand as a non US webmaster, I have all kinds of other challenges. It's more difficult for me to setup with third party billers and I pay much higher taxes, to name just a few.
                                                                            Well said
                                                                            ICQ: 150-803-430
                                                                            Email: marketing7(at)cox(dot)net

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Dirty Dane
                                                                                Sick Fuck
                                                                                • Feb 2004
                                                                                • 9491
                                                                                #70
                                                                                Originally posted by ULVideo
                                                                                Anyone who does not comply with 2257 shouldn't be surprised if their cash flow stream from US sources gets "interrupted". If you don't care about US sales, then don't worry about it, but even if you don't get extradited/prosecutes in the US, I think there's a really good chance US DOJ is going to be able to get other countries processors to stop processing transactions for non-compliant websites. And I think you can forget about Visa and Mastercard, even if you've got a merchant acount. If you don't need them, then you're ok. But who doesn't need them (at all)?
                                                                                lol... lets be realistic here. 98% of the "pain" in complying 2257 is the new definition of producer and about how, what and where to keep records. Internet has "no borders", yes, but physical countries do and there is no way US authorities can inspect you at your home adress. So it make no sense to say you have to comply 100%, and get prosecuted or whatever may happen.
                                                                                Besides that, US and foreign agencys are co-operating both ways, and if a US agency find a foreign suspicious website, I'm sure they will contact the local authorities.
                                                                                Yes, Visa and processors may or may not stop transactions, but that is not new, it already happened. As long there are money there will be websites.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • rednet
                                                                                    Registered User
                                                                                    • Aug 2004
                                                                                    • 82
                                                                                    #71
                                                                                    well, the one thing that can affect the non-us biz is visa... and that's all...

                                                                                    but as you all know bestiality, rape, shitting and other shit (pun... lol!) that is illegal in US and still getting sold... anyway the internet is full of that stuff (because it still getting sold... lol... how do you think surfers pay for that sick porn? i can be wrong but i suppose they use their visas and mastercards)

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • FUCKuPAYme
                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                        • Jan 2003
                                                                                        • 1023
                                                                                        #72
                                                                                        Originally posted by WarChild
                                                                                        There seems to be a lot of animosity between US webmasters and non US webmasters over 2257. People seem to be getting angry that non US citizens are taking your new 2257 regulations a little lighter than some of you would like.

                                                                                        As a Canadian, I'm sorry your government was able to pass such a ridiculous law. I stand with you in fighting it, and I'll even help fund Free Speech Coalition to everybody's benefit. Please try to understand if non Americans could make these laws vanish, we would without a doubt.

                                                                                        That being said, I will bind my business by the laws of the land that I live in and operate my business out of, Canada. Much as I won't be bound by China's laws banning pornograhphy all together. I refuse to be made a record keeper by the US DOJ. I'm sorry this upsets some US webmasters but that's really out of my control. Please don't confuse this as disrespect for your plight.

                                                                                        Please understand as a non US webmaster, I have all kinds of other challenges. It's more difficult for me to setup with third party billers and I pay much higher taxes, to name just a few.

                                                                                        Great post we all have to do whats best for our business

                                                                                        I just think we shouldn't let kids see hardcore for free or anyone for that matter
                                                                                        SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Matt_WildCash
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Jan 2003
                                                                                            • 1699
                                                                                            #73
                                                                                            Originally posted by rednet
                                                                                            well, the one thing that can affect the non-us biz is visa... and that's all...

                                                                                            but as you all know bestiality, rape, shitting and other shit (pun... lol!) that is illegal in US and still getting sold... anyway the internet is full of that stuff (because it still getting sold... lol... how do you think surfers pay for that sick porn? i can be wrong but i suppose they use their visas and mastercards)
                                                                                            Visa has banned Beastility, Rape, incest and any violent porn from being purchased via Visa credit card. Anyone selling with those is bouncing around merchant accounts where the bank doesn't know what its really selling.

                                                                                            Try the New XMovies.com and make more $$$ with your Traffic

                                                                                              Comment

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