Trust & Holiday Drama

(RESOLUTION CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST)

FletchCore (02:49 PM) :
The design is considered a body of "work" its copy, its html, its code, its graphics, all MINE

DonovanPhillips (02:49 PM) :
I'm asking you what you feel is a fair price for a table?

DonovanPhillips (02:49 PM) :
I don't think it's worth $4,500.

FletchCore (02:49 PM) :
we are not negotiating about tables, you can either be a man or crook, seems you are chosing slowly but surely.

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
i put off that much work working on shit for you

DonovanPhillips (02:50 PM) :
Okay... take it to the boards. You are being entirely unreasonable.

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
well whatn is your offer?

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
you want me to make up an offer?? no, you call it, ill accept or not. simple

FletchCore (02:50 PM) :
i will be reasonable.

DonovanPhillips (02:51 PM) :
I'm thinking.

DonovanPhillips (02:52 PM) :
Hold on one second. I'm going to call someone for an opinion.

FletchCore (02:52 PM) :
i really wish youd just be real instead of trying to please other people aside from me which is who you should be

FletchCore (02:53 PM) :
im not a fucking criminal, im not a crook. you must admit that I have done nothing but be creative and eager about these projects

FletchCore (02:53 PM) :
i even STOPPED accepting tours from other people for you man.

DonovanPhillips (02:53 PM) :
I now need an opinion. I'm not operating on emotion or good will with you anymore. Now it's business. And there will be no more between us after this. I need to know what 9 tables are worth so I'm going to ask someone I trust.

FletchCore (02:53 PM) :
you HAVe to realize my angle, this fucking broke man,

FletchCore (02:54 PM) :
you rent really paying for tables Donny, you are paying for copying MY COPYRIGHT DESIGN

FletchCore (02:54 PM) :
you do not have legal right to allow copies, its simple

DonovanPhillips (02:54 PM) :
My good will ended with you end to professionalism. You took this to the boards without contacting ANYONE.

DonovanPhillips (02:54 PM) :
That is SO unprofessional.

FletchCore (02:55 PM) :
youre trying to call my work nothing but crap tables? you are insulting me while trying to negotiate, im unprofessional?

DonovanPhillips (02:55 PM) :
It was very unprofessional to take this to the boards, then threaten me.

FletchCore (02:55 PM) :
you can handle it, please why dont you,

FletchCore (02:55 PM) :
the unprofessional part is the entire situation

FletchCore (02:56 PM) :
so offer
/?

DonovanPhillips (02:56 PM) :
I'm going to handle it. Professionally. By getting an experts opinion. I'm having the designers that have the office next to me come over to give me an opinion.

FletchCore (02:56 PM) :
please get back to me when you can.

DonovanPhillips (02:56 PM) :
The do graphic and web design here in town and for companies including IBM.

FletchCore (02:56 PM) :
the grief and sttress this is causing me, and the clients I turned away for you is making me sick to my stomach DOnny.

FletchCore (02:57 PM) :
I really took you for more than that.

DonovanPhillips (02:57 PM) :
I'll be paying them for their expert opinion on this matter.

FletchCore (02:57 PM) :
Ill be waiting, simply get their opinion and hit me with the offer, show them all the sites and say you copied the design LAYOUT, not just tables.

DonovanPhillips (02:58 PM) :
I will be very honest with them.

FletchCore (02:58 PM) :
I have to go, I have clients that are following this and are sad to see this happen, you wont believe the support I have gotten.

DonovanPhillips (02:58 PM) :
You wouldn't believe the same support I've gotten.

FletchCore (02:58 PM) :
emails to deal with and clients to chat with, just hit me with offer

FletchCore (02:58 PM) :
Public support is the best ';-)

DonovanPhillips (03:00 PM) :
They'll be coming to my office in about an hour. I should have an offer for you in two hours.

DonovanPhillips (03:31 PM) :
I go to talk to them early. I went to their office. Just got back.
Message was sent. User is Offline.
The message will be delivered when user goes Online.

DonovanPhillips (03:31 PM) :
They are literally right next door. It didn't take long at all. About 20 minutes total.

FletchCore (03:32 PM) :
and?

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
The very short, condensed version (again, these guys do incredible stuff for places like IBM - which is one of their clients:

They said you no legal rights in this case. I explained that I didn't really care about the legality, I just wanted to do what's right. They said that if I
REALLY wanted to compensate him, they wouldn't pay more than $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST to $NUMBER DELETED
AT FLETCH'S REQUEST per site.

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
So do you want to compensate me?

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
Yes, I do.

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
$NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
What is your offer then?

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
For principle $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
I'm taking their high number.

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
Okay, $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST

FletchCore (03:35 PM) :
FIne, done, lets put this shit behind us and be on our way Donny.

DonovanPhillips (03:35 PM) :
By check, with a memo releasing further liability on the check.

FletchCore (03:35 PM) :
that is fine.

FletchCore (03:35 PM) :
of course

DonovanPhillips (03:35 PM) :
Who do I make the check out to and where do I send it?

DonovanPhillips (03:35 PM) :
I have your address, but don't know if you want it made out to you or your girl.

FletchCore (03:36 PM) :
PERSONAL NAME, ADDRESS INFO DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST


DonovanPhillips (03:36 PM) :
Cool. I am loading the printer with a blank check right now.

FletchCore (03:36 PM) :
Ill sign whatever and mail it back. You have my word on this,

FletchCore (03:36 PM) :
Can we please keep amounts and all personal info from the boards?

DonovanPhillips (03:36 PM) :
The cancelled check will be all the signed docs I need, because of the memo.

FletchCore (03:37 PM) :
Let this go undisclosed,

DonovanPhillips (03:37 PM) :
Okay. No amounts or personal info.

FletchCore (03:37 PM) :
I will make a thread saying you have taken care of me, at an undisclosed amount you can use the design however you want.

DonovanPhillips (03:37 PM) :
Okay.

FletchCore (03:38 PM) :
See, noone will look bad Donny.

FletchCore (03:38 PM) :
Wasnt that hard to clear up.

DonovanPhillips (03:39 PM) :
What's your tax ID number again? I need to add that to Quickbooks for 1099s

FletchCore (03:40 PM) :
SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER REMOVED

DonovanPhillips (03:45 PM) :
The check is now in an enveloped, stamped, and placed into outgoing mail.

FletchCore (03:46 PM) :
Great

FletchCore (03:46 PM) :
Off to do some work, later

And that concludes this drama that never should have made it to the fucking boards to begin with... and which has resulted in my decision to no longer do work with a very incredible designer. Now I have to find a new one and am not happy about that.

I want to be compensated for wasting my time with this

Where do I send the fucking check?!?





























(can you tell I'm not too happy with my name being unnecesarily drug through the mud?)

Donny - from what I can tell there were mistakes made on both
ends of this issue. Fletch should have been a little more patient
in dealing with the situation and waited until all efforts were
exhausted to bring it to the boards - he chose to go to the
boards first before trying to resolve. That sucks a big one but
now you know how Fletch is.

Bringing shit to the boards is the fastest way to create drama, sig
views and in most cases... get your problem taken care of
quickly. It is not however the most professional way of doing
things.

Aside from all of that - I think you did the right thing in
compensating Fletch for his work. Apparently you thought you
did the right thing too or you would have told him to get fucked.
I personally would have liked to have seen you make him an offer
last night before that whole thread got out of hand. I would
have liked to have seen you guys get on the phone with each
other, discuss the details, talk about resolution and keep
the partnership alive. That my friend is what "partnership" is
all about. Partners don't always agree, but usually they find a
way to agree to disagree and then move on. It's a shame that
you and Fletch are not able to do that - but for whatever reason
it's just not meant to be.

I'll give you two thumbs up for stepping up to the plate and
doing the right thing though

Okay, looks like there has been resolve.

Although not on the best of terms and after much unnecessary headache, looks like this is over. I don't have anything to say.

done.

I have work to address, and cant hang on the board tonight. So that is all.

It was impossible to resolve this last night, Dean, because I had no input from the third party involved.

And speaking of him, he wants me to be sure that I publicly state that HE thinks Fletch had NO legal OR moral rights in this case and wants everyone to know the money did NOT come from him. I promised I'd let everyone know.

Sorry to hear this bullshit is happening to you Fletch. I reckon you should out these fuckers.

You're a little fucking late there tiger.

Wow that was heated, but at least its resolved now.

Tell your friend to eat shit.

Compliments of stocktrader23

My friend agrees with the independent third party that designs for large clients, including IBM. They're opinion again:

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
The very short, condensed version (again, these guys do incredible stuff for places like IBM - which is one of their clients:

They said you no legal rights in this case. I explained that I didn't really care about the legality, I just wanted to do what's right. They said that if I
REALLY wanted to compensate him, they wouldn't pay more than $NUMBER DELETED AT FLETCH'S REQUEST to $NUMBER DELETED
AT FLETCH'S REQUEST per site.

FletchCore (03:34 PM) :
So do you want to compensate me?

DonovanPhillips (03:34 PM) :
Yes, I do.

Who cares about legal rights in this situation? It really makes no difference what is legal or not in the situation. Everyone here can clearly see that Fletch was offered a great deal that went to a worse deal, to an even worse deal. Then on top of that your buddy that he had nothing to do with used his design as inspiration to redo his shitty sites. You know his new stuff was inspired by the design that was submitted to you.

If you are so high and mighty on your principals you would be taking care of the person your had an agreement with. Everyone here saw how excited he was to be working with you and he was hussling business for your program at the same time.

You in fact made a thread with a big speech about how the designer deserved to get paid a % instead of a flat fee up front and how you always take care of your models blah blah blah.

Anyhow, it really doesn't matter what I say to you. You seem to have made your decision and everyone here can come to their own conclusions. Only thing is, either you can't see it or you don't care but you are the one that's going to come out of this looking like the asshat. Your actions were everything but the right ones in each given situation.

Guess what.... Fletch still gets 25% of the NCG alternate tour he made for me ON TOP OF being paid $500 for it.

I challenge you to find EVEN ONE other webmaster that is doing that for a designer.

Fletch has no recourse here. Once again, someone mimics his style and he thinks he owns it and can demand to be compensated. Those tours may look like the one you did for Donny, Fletch but in the end...THEY'RE NOT THE ONE YOU DID FOR DONNY. And to demand compensation of $500 per tour...that's too fucking funny.

I doubt your name was unncecesarily drag through the mud.

What I don't understand is how can you even think this resolvement was fair assuming that it wasn't $500 x number of site copied plus 25% for stealing design (I know it was your other partner's designer that copied his design and now they are called tables).

Since it was brought up on the boards and we got to read it and the ICQs, it seems that you just bought him out so you could continue to post here otherwise you would have just F-em.

What a stand up guy...not .

Oh yeah, that's why I did it. Because GFY is SO valuable lately. Yep, you fuckin' pegged me.

Ignorant moron, MANY "old schoolers" that lurk here but have too much class to get involved in drama have ICQ'd me with support. I wish I could copy and paste the conversations here.

Board Jockeys that like to stir up shit (like you) may think otherwise, but Fletch was not mistreated here by me.

Again, I challenge you to find a SINGLE other program owner that is willing to cut the designer in on a percentage.

Or a model, for that matter. Even Lightspeed has stopped cutting models in (at least, ICQ conversations with him have indicated that).

Some of Fletch's own clients have told me that I'm crazy to give up a percentage.

If I would have down things the "normal" way (paying the designer once and not even considered percentage) this wouldn't have happened.


AND if Fletch had waited 2 AND A HALF HOURS for me to answer his ICQ message and address his concern (or simply called me on the phone) this never would have been an issue either.

DO YOU THINK ANYONE HAS MOTIVATION TO 'HELP' SOMEONE I CONSIDERED A FRIEND WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE THE COURTESTY TO EVEN WAIT FOR MY FUCKING REPLY BEFORE GOING TO A MESSAGE BOARD??????????????

No, if Fletch had simply contacted me as the normal, sweet person he is, I probably would have given him TWICE what I paid him today AND I WOULD DEFINITELY STILL BE DOING BUSINESS WITH HIM.

As it is, I am so disgusted by the lack of professionalism (bringing it to the boards first) that I will not do business, and he has lost much more long term income than he was paid today.

I would have made things right with Fletch no matter what. There is no doubt about that. Those who know me here know that to be true.

Anyway... it's over. Enough already.

Don't make yourself look so pathetic.

The designer probably won out ?to most of the old timers?. However, a similar situation happened to me, and I decided not to take the settlement offer that was low and took the lost because it insulted me. I learned my lesson from it. Rather than pursuing a no win lawsuit, I spent my money which would had cost to sue the company (thief) with my lawyer of how not to get screwed out of payment when a client thinks they own my intellectual property.

Call me every swear word or name you can think of but if you think you are a stand up guy because you can write a check, think again. You have partnership with one person and another partnership going on. And you couldn?t communicate with your partners before the shit hit the boards?

However, you could start a thread about how you love your job (creative pics), telling members to sign up here before this thread was posted

Think again?

that is one long drama!

Good. Feel good and hopes no one remembers this thread.

BTW, how many photographers take naked pics with model releases for exclusive, doesn?t care what the client does with the picture or set, and does not know basic copyright laws.

One can only wonder about your model contracts?do the girls you take pictures of fully understand that whoever buys them can do what ever they what with them? If I recall correctly, you take pictures of college girls.

Please don?t get me wrong but you stated exclusive and you don?t care what the purchaser does with them and you stated about your family values many times on this bb, you just got me wondering if you are an asshole or just stupid.

What a shame you didn't deal with this like a man from the start instead of making excuses for your thieving partner.

Glad to see the issue ended up getting resolved, but goddamn, i can't believe Donny and this TFCash honestly believe you can just take someone's layout and change the graphics and think there's nothing wrong with that. That is theft. The design is not just the pretty images, it's everything. It's the concept. It's the layout. It's the combination of html that produces that layout. It's blatant theft.

And with the admission that the layout was just taken and reproduced with alternative graphics, if Fletch did want to take legal action, he would have no problems winning that.

I'm glad it got sorted. I just hope the amount you gave him wasn't pennies on the dollar for what he's truly owed.

I wasn't going to reply to this again, but you really are an idiot, aren't you?

Let me give you just a couple of examples:

Up until the very recent past, every photographer that shoots for ATK, or Karups did without a contract. And we don't care what the do with the photos. Because we know they're responsible companies.

Even now, if you shoot exclusive for Lightspeed or a multitude of other well known companies, you do so without a contract.

Sending the 2257 docs and an invoice is quite good enough. It's called trust.

They're bullet proof. $5,000 was spent to ensure that.

They understand fully.

Neither.

I see that ChodaDog is another typical GFY idiot that reacts based on pure emotion, rather than logic and fact.

The facts of the matter are quite simple, Choda. I receive an ICQ from Fletch, while I'm offline, stating he's mad at me but wants to wait to hear from me before taking it to the boards. 2 and a half hours later, when I log on to ICQ and get the message, it's already too late. Fletch's professionalism has been overcome by his raw emotions and he's already posted.

AT NO TIME did I ever intend to do wrong by him. AT NO TIME. BUT I also wanted him to wait until I'd had a chance to talk to my partner so that I could have ALL the facts at hand. Not only did I want to hear what my partner had to say, I also hoped my partner would have a suggested solution. But once again, Fletch could not control pure emotion and act professional. He began to threaten ME with legal action.

Side bar here: **FACTS** show that **I HAD NO IDEA** about the "copies" up until the time they were actually released to the public. But I was being threatened nonetheless. Damn, that really puts a person in the mood to help someone. Doesn't it??

When I told my partner about the situation, he became very angry to learn that Fletch had VERY UNPROFESSIONALLY gone public without hearing from either of us. He needlessly damaged two very good reputations. NEEDLESSLY. NEEDLESSLY. NEEDLESSLY. Both of us are good people. My partner said that if Fletch wanted to behave like this he had no desire to compensate him beyond the intitial purchase (which gave us full rights... see next two paragraphs).

This afternoon I had a paid consultation with a PROFESSIONAL DESIGN FIRM (with clients such as IBM) to get the legalities of this situation, and to inquire about what they thought the proper compensation would be to Fletch. They were briefed on the entire situation.

Guess what? The PROFESSIONALS, who live and breathe design laws, told me that I had no legal requirements to compensate Fletch even a single penny more. My purchase gave me full rights, lock, stock and barrel. I was glad to hear this, because now I knew that any compensation from me to Fletch would come from ME and not from LEGALITIES. I told the consultants that I wanted to compensate Fletch anyway, because he was a friend (at least I thought he was... hell he even had FULL ACCESS to my server with MY PERSONAL PASSWORD - I guess I was wrong). I asked what they felt would be fair. They again let me know that I owed him nothing. Not a thin dime. Then I asked again for a number. They said, fair would be to pay him between $x and $x (numbers are hidden at FLETCH'S request).

I then returned to my office, called Fletch. No answer. I ICQ'd and received a response a few minutes later. I told him what the consultants had recommended. He asked, "So do you want to compensate me?" I said "Yes I do". I then offered the higher of the two numbers thrown out by the consultants. He said "for principle let's make it $x" and threw out a number a little more than 10% higher than my offer. I agreed.

Now, from the reactions on this board I can clearly see the difference between the "professionals" in the adult industry and the true professionals in the mainstream world. It seems adult industry "professionals" work on pure emotion. Sad.


Donovan Phillips did NOT screw Fletch in any way. Donovan Phillips had his very good reputation permanently damaged by an UNPROFESSIONAL act by a designer he THOUGHT was a friend. But, as stated, he was obviously WRONG about the FRIEND part, because FRIENDS DO NOT PUBLICLY SERVE UP EACH OTHER'S REPUTATIONS OVER MISUNDERSTANDINGS WITHOUT WAITING FOR ANSWERS.

To those of you who STILL insist on an EMOTIONAL reaction over a PROFESSIONAL reaction I am sorry for you. Maybe someday you'll grow up.

I see that ChodaDog is another typical GFY idiot that reacts based on pure emotion, rather than logic and fact.

The facts of the matter are quite simple, Choda. I receive an ICQ from Fletch, while I'm offline, stating he's mad at me but wants to wait to hear from me before taking it to the boards. 2 and a half hours later, when I log on to ICQ and get the message, it's already too late. Fletch's professionalism has been overcome by his raw emotions and he's already posted.

AT NO TIME did I ever intend to do wrong by him. AT NO TIME. BUT I also wanted him to wait until I'd had a chance to talk to my partner so that I could have ALL the facts at hand. Not only did I want to hear what my partner had to say, I also hoped my partner would have a suggested solution. But once again, Fletch could not control pure emotion and act professional. He began to threaten ME with legal action.

Side bar here: **FACTS** show that **I HAD NO IDEA** about the "copies" up until the time they were actually released to the public. But I was being threatened nonetheless. Damn, that really puts a person in the mood to help someone. Doesn't it??

When I told my partner about the situation, he became very angry to learn that Fletch had VERY UNPROFESSIONALLY gone public without hearing from either of us. He needlessly damaged two very good reputations. NEEDLESSLY. NEEDLESSLY. NEEDLESSLY. Both of us are good people. My partner said that if Fletch wanted to behave like this he had no desire to compensate him beyond the intitial purchase (which gave us full rights... see next two paragraphs).

This afternoon I had a paid consultation with a PROFESSIONAL DESIGN FIRM (with clients such as IBM) to get the legalities of this situation, and to inquire about what they thought the proper compensation would be to Fletch. They were briefed on the entire situation.

Guess what? The PROFESSIONALS, who live and breathe design laws, told me that I had no legal requirements to compensate Fletch even a single penny more. My purchase gave me full rights, lock, stock and barrel. I was glad to hear this, because now I knew that any compensation from me to Fletch would come from ME and not from LEGALITIES. I told the consultants that I wanted to compensate Fletch anyway, because he was a friend (at least I thought he was... hell he even had FULL ACCESS to my server with MY PERSONAL PASSWORD - I guess I was wrong). I asked what they felt would be fair. They again let me know that I owed him nothing. Not a thin dime. Then I asked again for a number. They said, fair would be to pay him between $x and $x (numbers are hidden at FLETCH'S request).

I then returned to my office, called Fletch. No answer. I ICQ'd and received a response a few minutes later. I told him what the consultants had recommended. He asked, "So do you want to compensate me?" I said "Yes I do". I then offered the higher of the two numbers thrown out by the consultants. He said "for principle let's make it $x" and threw out a number a little more than 10% higher than my offer. I agreed.

Now, from the reactions on this board I can clearly see the difference between the "professionals" in the adult industry and the true professionals in the mainstream world. It seems adult industry "professionals" work on pure emotion. Sad.


Donovan Phillips did NOT screw Fletch in any way. Donovan Phillips had his very good reputation permanently damaged by an UNPROFESSIONAL act by a designer he THOUGHT was a friend. But, as stated, he was obviously WRONG about the FRIEND part, because FRIENDS DO NOT PUBLICLY SERVE UP EACH OTHER'S REPUTATIONS OVER MISUNDERSTANDINGS WITHOUT WAITING FOR ANSWERS.

To those of you who STILL insist on an EMOTIONAL reaction over a PROFESSIONAL reaction I am sorry for you. Maybe someday you'll grow up.

This whole thing leaves a sour taste in everyone's mouth. This is entirely something that should have never hit the boards. This is a typical business blooper. Partnerships form, something fucks up, partners part ways, work is kept with the larger cut side of things and work is somehwhat reused. Sounds normal and happens a lot right? Even when the smaller party gets upset then deal is usualy worked out privately and without copyright suit threats.

What makes it ok to go public about it on an adult board is beyond me.

As for the suposed copied and reused works.. I see similarities in table layouts and that is about it. It's not exactly world premiere work we are talking about here.. I really don't see any graphic design theft to it personaly. However Fletch lost potential work while working on this with Donny. So fucking what. Risk taken. that's no excuse to ask over $1000 for fucking tables and make a big public spectacle over it.



That being said, the two of you really should have had contracts done up before getting into a partnership. No matter how much you trust someone, too much 'word of mouth' can ruin the best of friends amidst business.

Most of the adult biz are still adolescents as far as maturity goes it seems. I'm not calling anyone kids in here though, just in general.

I'm about to faint. A logical thinker on GFY?? Who'dda thunk??

Don't worry, im sure some adolescent minded fool will pipe in and throw wild acusations at me that have nothing to do with the situation and prolly call me a derogatory name. This is GFY after all. Where logic breeds ignorance from the sheeps.

Had to repeat that. This is the part so many here don't seem to get.

It ain't over yet?

Nope. GFY idiots keep acting like GFY idiots.

Off to bed for the night. Getting up early to spend time with my son.

Let's see someone copy yahoo's "tables" and change a few colours and images and see what happens.

I know you didn't copy the sites, but i do think it's fucked up that you think what the guy did was okay and legal.

I'm not acting on any emotion. I don't know fletch other than grabbing a few mp3's he's posted in threads from time to time. He's designed one gallery for me and the only correspondance i ever had was "could you change this one piece of text?"

I do also think this situation would have been better handled away from the boards, because your name has been dragged through the mud because of somebody else's actions that you didn't even know about.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but taking those layouts is not legal as far as i know. I'm not well versed in these kinds of laws though. I'd be interested in seeing qualified opinion on this matter. Would gladly eat crow if i was wrong.

After reading the first page I Knew this would be resolved, both Donny and Fletch are resonable & respected ppl in this biz