My buddy just got back from Baghdad and he says...

did he call you a pussy for not going over there?

50 retarded webmasters arguing on the internet

some sick shit happends since bush is on the red button.

never seen so much terror before. but those terrorists will burn in hell for that :

I spent my winter skiing, hot-tubbing, and smoking weed because at no point in my life was I dumb enough to volunteer to be anti-tank round fodder. Thats why.

Just a quick note on death tolls.... It's a little callous but it has to
be understood. If you want to do it based on math then you
better use the right math.

Puts WTC and Saddam's gas attacks in perspective....

Since the sanctions started an average of 5,000 Iraqi children
ages 5 or under have died each month.

The US juiced the Kurds up and told them that they would be
supported with tanks if they rebelled. When they did it wasn't the
right timing for Bush Snr and the backup never came. Saddam
gassed them. Giving Bush a nice sound-bite to use when the time
was right.

The death toll in Iraqi over the last 10 years is incalculable. It's
just so staggeringly huge. I heavily doubt that more people died
in Japan as a result of the H-bombs. These are deaths resulting
directly from US policy and positioning. You can say it's Saddam's
fault and you'll be correct. However it's also Bush's (Snr & Jnr)
actions and responsibilities.

If they do the wrong thing now and don't clean up the mess then
the amount of people that have died so far will be a drop in the
ocean. The place will really explode into chaos. The death toll
both in America and Iraq at that stage will become quite large
indeed.

How many died in WTC again?

Headless.... Try not to bite on this.... I think you can see I'm not
being irrational about this. I don't take sides easy, I sit in the
middle and see what the facts really are. Then I still don't take
sides. Who am I to say what is right/wrong or better/worse.

-Ben

Surely no-one still believes that we went into Iraq for the sake of the Iraqis or that Saddam Hussein was targetted because his regime was a threat to the security of the US?

Make an argument if you will, why the US should be the protector of downtrodden people around the world. I can imagine disagreements over such things as national sovereignty, but heaven knows it could be a righteous role for us to play.

However even if you do believe that is our destiny, don't try to tell me that Saddam Hussein would have made the top five of people without whom the world would be a better place. And don't tell me we had to rip a whole country apart and kill so many innocent people, just to get at one man and his aides.

Just to be picky, but you should have said Bush (Snr & Jnr) AND Clinton. Not that I particularly care, but neo-conservatives love to jump on this point.

Well that serves no excuse for the need for a national standing army.

If everybody thought like you throughout history. You simply would not be able to that..

I had parties and fun during the Iraq war.. but I am not going to call every solider who didnt have the chance a idiot because they where fighting while I was chillen.. that just plain fucking arrogant

Manifest Destiny?

Saddam Hussein ran Iraq like he owned it. He was a dictator..

Saddam had the chance to stand down before military action took place.. but just like the dozen resolutions purposed to him he ignored it.

Lords knows its Bush's fault for Saddam jacking off in front of the UN for 12 fucking years.. you people amaze me

That's not your problem. Let Iraqi civil war take him out of power.

So you're saying because 70% of Canadians hate Bush and think he's a clown, we should get really mad about it and have the RCAF level the US? That would be okay with you guys? Shit, it would be doing you a favor right? Liberation?

well Hussein was never found in material breach of 1441. It's hardly as if during those 12 years the pressure on Iraq was sufficient to make him stand down. Then all of a sudden the US is interested again.

then maybe you should stop thinking and start learning you ignoramous.

When a country dictates 33% of the world economy.. and when a single terrorist attack can cost billions.. then yes take the offensive

Are you fucking blind??

If it was in the best Interest of the RACF they would do just that..

But they arent that should tell you something along the lines that your statement is ridiculous.

Its a dog eat dog world for everybody.

you should have stuck with your rule of not posting on political threads.

Comparing Iraq to Vietnam proves that

yep, really should have stayed with your rule.

Isn't the blame for kids starving Saddam's? Don't try to pass it off. The answer is yes.

BTW, the sanctions were UN sanctions, not US sanctions

Yes, stop thinking. Become a conservative.

The world totally supported the US in taking on terrorism in Afghanistan. But most of the world correctly didn't buy the propaganda that Iraq was the front of the war on terrorism.

Sure Hussein has paid off some Palestinian suicide bombers, but Al Qaeda killed 3000 US citizens on US soil, and yet Afghanistan has until lately been largely forgotten.

did you read what I was responding to? Calling Bush a Catholic is like calling Saddam a Jew

Bush is a fundamentalist Christian.

Yes he was never found in material breach..

Let me guess.. You are one of the people that think Bush did this to complete his daddys mission?

Just a family task.. I love you Dad..

Maybe after 911 there was a dramatic adjustment and second look at the entire middle east structure as a whole.

The war on Terror is and never was a war agaisnt a single country.. It is agaisnt any hostile force towards the USA.

911 is what brought the interest back..

If there was a second 911 in the US the economy would collapse.

Terrorist nations needed to be put in place. Saddam set himdelf up for it long ago. Shock and Awe, everybody decideds to come to the table or wait until Bush is out of Office to continue anything agaisnt the interst of the USA.

forgive him he is a thinker

and how did you arrive at that assumption?

simpleton

WTF does that have to do with Catholicism? I believe he is Southern Baptist, and they hate Catholics

Except this isnt a game of monopoly.. Better to be safe then sorry.

Yes he was never found in material breach..

Let me guess.. You are one of the people that think Bush did this to complete his daddys mission?

Just a family task.. I love you Dad..

Maybe after 911 there was a dramatic adjustment and second look at the entire middle east structure as a whole.

The war on Terror is and never was a war agaisnt a single country.. It is agaisnt any hostile force towards the USA.

911 is what brought the interest back..

If there was a second 911 in the US the economy would collapse.

Terrorist nations needed to be put in place. Saddam set himdelf up for it long ago. Shock and Awe, everybody decideds to come to the table or wait until Bush is out of Office to continue anything agaisnt the interst of the USA.

I think we heard you the first time

I am getting lazy

well gee, the US has no power or influence in what the UN does.
(heavy sarcasm)

yeah, we held a gun to the heads of the entire UN and forced them to do it

I always thought you were a little smarter that that . . . may need to mull that one over

You really don't know much about geopolitics and how the world works do you?

Your immature comment makes me think it's not worth going into a discussion with you about this and how complex trade agreements and yes, thinly veiled threats influence certain parties in this arena.

Vietnam was a war for "hearts and minds" in which used
technology and firepower. It didn't work there and it looks like it
won't work in Iraq. Quite a valid point.

Is it the unjust person who wouldn't stand aside who's to blame
or is it the person who tried to force them out with unjust
methods?

Checkout how the sanctions came about to start with. Do the
research and you'll see that the US bought them. They paid off as
many countries as they could, huge arms deals (to some not so
nice countries), cancelled dept, humanitarian aid, and better
trade deals. A hell of a lot of bribery went into getting those
sanctions and they did a great deal of harm. Anyone who is
honest with themselves will see that the sanctions helped
nobody. All the while making Saddam stronger. The sanctions
killed a lot of people. Probably in the hundreds of thousands.

The kids starving wasn?t the problem, although I?m sure a lot did.
It was more that the whole country had practically zero medical
supplies. While before they had some of the best hospitals in the
entire middle-east.

btw speaking of UN resolutions...... How many successful votes
has there been now to reign in what's going on in Israel which
have been vetoed by the US? Is it up to 50 now? You?re kidding
yourself if you don?t think the situation in Israel is connected too
much of the discontent directed at the US. It?s just a sad
situation. People are trying to move it along however it?s a fact
that interests in the US have been stalling the process. I do
believe progress has been made however and the administration
has been made aware of how central this issue is.

I actually think about these things and try to form a balanced
point of view in an unbalanced world. Often I tell both anti-war
and pro-war people that they are missing the point. Hard
sometimes... Definitely harder than letting emotion take over.
Trust me, I?m not a hater of America?. I just love history and
enjoy knowing as much as I can about the current events of
history in the making so one-day I can tell my grandkids what it
was actually like. I think to logically comment on this subject you
have to do a bit more research then watching CNN every now-an-
then. btw the perspective not being in the US watching US TV
adds is immeasurable.

In the end what happens if it turns out that Iraq is a gaggle of
different ethnic groups that can only be held together by an iron-
fist? What if democracy never had a hope?

I?m not all-knowing so no way I could make that choice for
anyone and everyone?. Are you? Is Bush?

That?s it for me, you can pick little parks of my post to pieces all
you like. I?m not saying I have the answers as you can see I have
none. I won?t defend anything I?ve said as it?s just comments of
observation, I?m not going to take sides and I?m not going to
defend either side. I?ll just suggest that if you were unaware of
anything I?ve said then you should do some more reading and
inform yourself of what has actually been going on around you in
the world. To qualify I?d just say don?t read columnists and
conspiracy theorists. Instead go to the government and
international bodies and read the actual facts of what has
actually happened and form your own well-balanced opinion.
Thanks to your democracy there is actually a good amount of info
from your own government showing what the real facts are.

-Ben

Are you trying to say that other countries only did it for cash?

Reminds me of some bitches I know

ok ok just one last comment.

"War on Terror"

Is an oxymoron.

For every terrorist killed another handful of angry youth is
created from their friends and family.

The only real way to fight a war on terror is to go out of your way
to ensure that the US treats and trades fairly with the people it
shares the world with.

-Ben

In a perfect world where everyone can be made happy..

Then yes that would be correct.

They spent years trying to do what you just said. Thay call it a number of names.

Fuck the Sun is coming up..

Gotta go to bed

No, i'm not and It's not that simple.

There are many reasons a country may vote a certain way, one of the more common reasons is being pressured by a superpower with many bargaining chips on the table.

That's right he did own it and whether you like it or not that's the way they do things down there. Or is Bush going to go after another cruel and oppressive dictator? Try Mugabe ot N. Korea leader.

Bush thought it was in HIS interests to go after the Saddam. Not anyone elses and definitely not in Americas best interest. Or has the US economy improved because of the Iraq war?

I'll buy him one too.

It's great he is helping to install democracy in an area where there is none.

Democracy is a natural evolution of an informed public.

Bring on the information age.

Buy him a jug.

Who the fuck cares what he was fighting for! Be happy he came back alive dammit!

Headless - pat your bud on the back and buy him a beer from me! I have a couple friends that came back from Iraq (all infantry and/or Airborne) and they share the same sentiments of your buddy.

For all you Pussy Pinko Liberal ASSHOLES...GO FIND A TREE TO HUG AND FUCK YOURSELVES IN THE ASS WITH A TWIG!

The French are only good for one thing, I just haven't figured out what that one thing is yet! I think it may be running away...as History shows, they're pretty damn good at that. Arrogant pricks.

AND ... if you think the US will be out of there in another 5 years ...grow up.

FOR THIRTY FUCKING YEARS ... the Saddam Regime in it's state controled television and radio has TAUGHT ANTI-AMERICANISM ...do you think this can be undone in a few years ? ...grow the fuck up.

FREE IRAQ and let the democracy infection begin in that region of the world. At least let the voice of the world in - which in most of those countries - they do not allow.

The US like all nations must pick it's opportunities and priorities.

Let's get IRAQ having a free government then move onto the next dictatorship - if they haven't got the point yet.

i'm not anti-war, i just think bush is the antichrist

tell your buddy thanks for fighting for my freedom!

Headless... what is your paypal address? I want to paypal you $20 to buy that man a few drinks from me.

Please let me know where to send it.

The political discussion aside I am hearing mixed reaction from friends (and friends of friends) coming back from Iraq. Some are gung ho and back Bush others tell stories of true disgust in the ranks. Not knowing what they are really there for etc.

Glad to hear your buddy made it back though.

agreed ...
I wish I had a PayPal account.

Yeah , Liberate the Oil for the Bush cronies, with American blood

Canada has more energy resources then Iraq does.
It's not about oil.

Headless,

I need to head out for awhile. When you wake up, if you see my previous message, please send your paypal info to: gfy @ donovanphillips.com

It's called effort justification.

No doubt that the war was all bullshit ... That's not the question . Still take balls to shoot somebody.