Can they make a difference?
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Fucking good! Now if the Brits would too! This is our fucking mess we made and just dragged more people in it! Fucking A, we need to clean up a huge mess, but bush is looking for a exit plan!
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Not good!
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i agree, america has a good chance to prove itself on a world stage here and 'get it right'. i want to see peace in the region just like anyone else but if america was prepared to go it alone, they should be prepared to take full responsibility for their actions.Originally posted by JDog
Fucking good! Now if the Brits would too! This is our fucking mess we made and just dragged more people in it! Fucking A, we need to clean up a huge mess, but bush is looking for a exit plan!
jDoG
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Its not about oil, if it was we would of hit Saudi Arabia to take over their fields.Originally posted by TheMaster
euh, and when did the US punch back? Iraq? Hell, no terrorism there, oil yes. Fact is that most terrorists come from Saudi-Arabia, which is the most important allie of the US in the region, why don't they attack them? Because the royalhouse there listens to the US and let them have bases on their soil.Comment
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Ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Spanish people have always been opposed to the invasion of Iraq, it is curious that so many in this thread criticize the Spanish for perhaps allowing their votes to be influenced by an act of terrorism. Does anyone seriously imagine that without lingering reactions to 911, Dubya would have a snowball's chance in hell of re-election come November?
It also seems that although even Dubya quickly gave up trying to link Iraq to terrorism, many posting here still believe that the invasion of Iraq was part of the so-called "war on terror". For the record, the Spanish opposition and the Spanish government have a similar attitude to terrorism itself. They disagree only as to the wisdom of supporting some aspects of US foreign policy.
And for those who still believe that the invasion of Iraq was a good idea, reflect that when the number of attacks on US troops rose to 60 per day, they were ordered to stop recording attacks unless casualties were involved. If Iraqi casualties are counted at all, the figures are not made public, although it is known that 600 of the newly recruited policemen died in less than four months. Oil production has slowed to a trickle. Many of the rebuilt schools have already been looted. There are thousands of mercenaries in the country, including thugs from South Africa and Chile. In short, the illusion presented by the US media of somewhat difficult but still on-track transition to democracy and a return to prosperity, is just that: an illusion.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click...00987&set_id=1Comment
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idiot, it's about oil drilling rights, you don't have to conquer the land, if you can simply have the authorization to sell it to the rest of the world. US companies already have many exploitation rights in Saudi-Arabia, they didn't in Iraq.Originally posted by LittleMack
Its not about oil, if it was we would of hit Saudi Arabia to take over their fields.Comment
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this might become a second Vietnam, result wise: the US army will pull back from Iraq, leaving a small underequipted Iraqi army/police behind, saying they have succeeded in bringing democracy. While in reality, the country will fall apart after a short while.Originally posted by LittleMack
Still better than what it was under Saddam.
Iraq is in my mind, just the next place, where terrorism will find a new breading ground. If the US doesn't do the job right, they'll have a whole Iraqi population turning on them and blaming the US for the mess. And you know what: they're right.
If a Iraqi terrorist bombs a US city in the next 10 years, how big do you think the chance is going to be that it's your own fault?Comment
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Sorry you think I am an idiot, I am not. This war on terror is not about oil, or oil rights. The war is about ridding the world of the terrorists. Funny that you think I am an idiot, I do not support Bush the way you think that I do, I am about self preservation of my Country. If a Democrat (which is whom I am going to be voting for) was in office, I would feel the same way. I respect the position of the President, I might not agree with the person on all issues.Comment
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I totally agree with that statement!Originally posted by TheMaster
this might become a second Vietnam, result wise: the US army will pull back from Iraq, leaving a small underequipted Iraqi army/police behind, saying they have succeeded in bringing democracy. While in reality, the country will fall apart after a short while.
Iraq is in my mind, just the next place, where terrorism will find a new breading ground. If the US doesn't do the job right, they'll have a whole Iraqi population turning on them and blaming the US for the mess. And you know what: they're right.
If a Iraqi terrorist bombs a US city in the next 10 years, how big do you think the chance is going to be that it's your own fault?Comment
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I just disagree that it is all about oil. We were attacked and alot of our citizens were killed. I just shudder to think what might happen if we feel the same way the the people of Spain feel. I for one am not going to stick my head in the sand.Comment
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but the point is: Iraq has got nothing to do with terrorism, Afghanistan yes, Iraq no.Originally posted by LittleMack
Sorry you think I am an idiot, I am not. This war on terror is not about oil, or oil rights. The war is about ridding the world of the terrorists. Funny that you think I am an idiot, I do not support Bush the way you think that I do, I am about self preservation of my Country. If a Democrat (which is whom I am going to be voting for) was in office, I would feel the same way. I respect the position of the President, I might not agree with the person on all issues.
Sad fact is that by removing Saddam, you eliminated the strongest enemy of Islam terrorist in the Middle East. Terrorist were not active in Iraq, 'cause they knew they would be executed by Saddam. Saddam was never dangerous to the world as a whole, those fundamentalists on the other side, are the ones that are dangerous, they don't listen to reason, nor to money, which in a sick way is the worst thing of all: you can't buy them.
Be careful with powerful organised religions, they are the most dangerous thing in the world. People who base their whole thinking upon religion, can be easily turned to do bad things in the name of that religion.
I say this especially to the Americans among you, you are breeding the next possible batch of christian warriors/terrorists. Al Qaeda's beliefs are frightfully similar to the beliefs of conservative christian groups in the US, what will make those people become active? Oh, wait killing doctors who perform abortions and setting fire to clinics, is already happening, isn't it?Comment
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Time will tell.Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, has promised to immediately withdraw Spain's 1,300 troops from Iraq, orient Spain's foreign policy away from the United States and restore good relations with anti-war European allies, France and Germany.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Mar14.html
Another Bush foreign policy success?
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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The bombs had very little...if at all...to do with the election results.Originally posted by Ironhorse
Wow, this almost seems to indicate that they can influence elections with some well placed bombs
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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Absolutely.Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Would you be surprised if Bush had a hand in 9/11?When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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A wrong headed observation.Originally posted by Nysus
Are you talking about the US? I know you're not, but your statement reflects true for the US as well. Just an observation.
Cheers,
MattWhen you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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I remember WMD...and French and German intel agreed with US intel that Iraq had WMD's as well as WMD programs...as well as several other important foreign intel agencies.Originally posted by directfiesta
Because THEY were right and the USA wrong...
Remember: WMD ????When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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Though I do not agree with all points...your post at least has food for thought and is well presented.Originally posted by crescentx
Maybe this does send a signal to A-Q that they can change the face of politics. Though that conclusion is highly suspect given the anti-war sentiment already present in Spain, and the badly-attempted cover job trying to blame ETA.
I'd say it's more of a harbinger. Most Europeans - having a real historical basis for understanding what war on their soil means - never supported the Iraq war. Those leaders that chose to follow the US lead did so against heavy popular opposition, and the war isn't going according to plan. Not to mention the gravy is all going to no-bid contracts for US companies.
The long-term outcome of this could be to solidify and re-invigorate the European Union in ways never before possible. As elections come and go, the parties that supported the war - and are pro-US - will find themselves running out of friends. Perhaps even the hard-liners who envision the EU as a counterbalance to the US on the world stage get real power.
On this track, popular opinion in the EU can be tilted. From the Europeans I've known - and there are many - I don't think the natural reaction is a knee-jerk "let's kick their ass" response you'd see here in the States (reference quotes above). Given the popular lack of support over many of the US-led initiatives Europe has been involved in, I'd say it pushes things more into a US-EU competition.
That, with the economic indicators, weakness of the dollar, tends to me that W's legacy may be the weakening of the US as a true world power...sure we have a big army that can blow people up, but any essence of diplomacy or statesmanship that previous admins have had is long gone here, and in civilized circles, that's what counts. Let's hope he doesn't invade Spain next.
-dougWhen you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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This may make sense to you.Originally posted by Roger
I, for one, don't want to see Europe as a super power. One super power is already more than enough. At least with one superpower you can be sure that you'll have some decent leaders now and then. With two superpowers, the chances of that happening is a whole lot less.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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No...since it did not happen. The last resolution was 1441...which warned that if Saddam did not comply with it and all previous resolutions there would be severe consequences.Originally posted by BradM
Remember how 90% of the UN voted AGAINST going into Iraq? Well fuck that Bush said we're doing it anyways.
You should try for a gig at the comedy club.The Euro Union will take over, and I for one am glad. Europeans have been through thousands of years of war and know how to run things. The states just knows how to kill civillians.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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there's no one like the king to bump the hell out of a thread like this
Comment
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Do you live in fear? I do not...but just in case...I am more than well armed.Originally posted by crescentx
I don't phrase this as "superpower" in the Cold-War-era sense (which lots of DoD people seem stuck in). More like a bloc - which the EU is - of diverse nations, soon to be much more diverse in May. The EU is tackling as a body issues more complex by far than was tackled with the thirteen colonies, and I would say from visiting and news, having some successes in the context of very heated debate.
The EU argues about common defense forces - which most seem against as far as I know - and other issues. Economic issues, and immigration issues, seem to be at the forefront. It's not a unified voice as much as a counterbalance, even at this early stage, a powerful one.
470 million people in the current EU, I think. While the EU is drafting a constitution, there's a big emphasis on national autonomy. It's unlikely there will be a United States-style "superpower" in place, but very likely - and already signs are showing - that together a lot of nations can pool their influences and resources and have a big impact in international politics. The African States (can't recall the name) are in the extreme early stages of this as well.
In the end, I don't see this as a bad thing. Much like small businesses can pool their resources to get a better deal, this way countries with common interests can play a more representative role on the world stage. If these other unions mature effectively, then, ironically enough, you might see an "Old Europe" argument played successfully against the US, since the concept of the EU is a much more flexible, intelligent, fluid, and non-aggressive model of representation than brute force and intimidation.
If foreign policy were in the end decided on intelligence, negotiation, and cooperation, and less on religious divides, military might, and nuclear explosives, I think the world would be a much happier place. Living in fear just sucks.
-dougWhen you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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duhhh, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero had said BEFORE the terrorist attacks he would pull troups out of Irak if he was elected. This decision doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the bombs. So the terrorist didn't win anything.
Now one can argue he was elected because of the attacks, but nobody will ever know. The fact is the terrorists didn't motivate this decision.
It's scary that some people still think (or ever thought) that removing Saddam from power would lower international terrorism...Comment
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Good post...and I might add that much of Europe lived in relative peace for approximately fifty years during the cold war because of the umbrella of protection provided by the USA. Instead of criticizing the US I would say a thank you is in order.Originally posted by WarChild
As a Canadian, I find it embarassing out goverment doesn't stand united with the USA. We're allowed to get along with very little useful millitary, and not need to worry because of our southern neighbors. If we had Iran to the south of us, we'd sure as shit not have free healthcare and a monster millitary too.
If they want our feable help in their millitary actions sometimes, we should be right there supporting it. I swear it's the french influence, and it's spreading.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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Common sense...for you maybe...a distinct lack of insight into reality from my viewpoint.Originally posted by MaskedMan
going so far to the left?
how about not sticking our noses into other people's business? Ever heard of that?
Evil in the world? How much evil is there in the US? They just invaded some other country!
Evil is as evil does.
It's not your place to punish or judge, nor is it mine.
Did Saddam deserve to be taken out of power, sure. Did the entire nation deserve to be bombed from the sky and completely taken over? Probably not.
Did the world deserve to be completely lied to about weapons and papers and intentions? No.
Am I going so far to the left? no, I'm using common sense.
The intentions were bogus. The decision was bogus. The belief that Bush can do no wrong is bogus. The war mongering is bogus and the tampering in other people's affairs is bogus.
Don't lump everyone into a wing group because we happen to think that maybe thousands of people didn't really need to die for some hidden agenda that one guy has.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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Definitly! It's so freaking hard to get in there nowdays ... If you were caught with weed before you can't get in the country ! fucked up thingOriginally posted by Nysus
Are you talking about the US? I know you're not, but your statement reflects true for the US as well. Just an observation.
Cheers,
MattOriginally posted by rayadp05Comment
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Of course it does...in all of the conflicts you listed the people were overwhemlingly in support...except in the later years of the Vietnam conflict.Originally posted by BradM
You're avoiding the origional question, because obviously you've NO clue what you're going on about (suprising coming from a republican?)
We're talking about the last 25 years and how out of control the states is with war.
Vietnam
Gulf 1
Gulf 2
Afghanistan
The US doesn't listen to even what it's OWN people say.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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Originally posted by WarChild
As a Canadian, I find it embarassing out goverment doesn't stand united with the USA. We're allowed to get along with very little useful millitary, and not need to worry because of our southern neighbors. If we had Iran to the south of us, we'd sure as shit not have free healthcare and a monster millitary too.
If they want our feable help in their millitary actions sometimes, we should be right there supporting it. I swear it's the french influence, and it's spreading.
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Hell no ! Support a war that was made without the GO of the ONU, that was based on lie and that didn't bring nothing new to the table except more oil for the States ?
We have a pretty good reputation internationally right now, let's not embarass ourselvesOriginally posted by rayadp05Comment
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Yes...he has decided to attempt to neutralize or kill our enemies...which I give myOriginally posted by Roger
I don't know if you noticed but it's Bush who's allowing his country's foreign policy to be shaped by terrorist acts.
to.
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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euh, first of all: Europe has known terrorism for the last 50 years: paris, london, munich, barcelona, milan, rome, ...Originally posted by theking
Good post...and I might add that much of Europe lived in relative peace for approximately fifty years during the cold war because of the umbrella of protection provided by the USA. Instead of criticizing the US I would say a thank you is in order.
second: the US, especially by means of the CIA, has been putting dictators into power in South-America, Africa & Asia + been supporting the reigning powers in Saudi Arabia.
Fact is that the US has been so affraid of everything that was called left wing, as small as it might be, that they prefered to put dictators and fascist into power, then take a chance on people who wanted to help the general public instead of big corporations.
Thanks for creating and armoring half of the world's terrorists. A lot of your soldiers are being killed by your own weapons, how stupid are these people when it comes to foreign policy.Comment
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If I punch you in the face, you call the cops and file a criminal charge against me. If you hit me, then I hit you, then a fight starts, where one of us can get seriously injured or even killed. Is that your solution???Originally posted by LittleMack
Don't want to get into a pissing match but what did diplomacy under Clinton get us............... 9/11. I cant stand here and believe that we should of done nothing. 3000 of our citizens were murdered by a bunch of radical Muslim fundamentalists, that are supported by governments in the Middle East. Here is the scenario, You punch me in the face, I just stand there, you punch me again in the face, I want to talk to see what is wrong, you punch me again, I say hey lets work this out.....when do you fight back. Fuck that, if you hit us, we hit back and hard. Pearl Harbor is a great point in fact. AHHHHHHHHHH. I wish and pray that the world is a peaceful place, but it is not and never will be. And on the 6-7 years they were planned, they were under a Liberal President, no matter who we have in office they hate us. They need to be eradicated from the face of this Earth!!!!!
By going after the terrorists and intervening in Muslim countries, we make the terrorists more and more angry and hateful towards America, which is the scenario right now. I am not saying do not go after the terrorists, all I am saying that America shouldn't stick its nose in foreign business, like Iraq. What link did Iraq have with Al-Queda??? None!!! So this war just created more and more hatered. Having a agressive policy and trying to get revenge for what happened on 9/11 is not the right way to go. Revenge never brings any good, but complicates the matter further. You think the terrorist attacks have stopped? They are getting more and more stronger, thanks to Bush, who's "bring it on" policy just makes them more and more angrier and hence, stronger.Comment
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Funny man...Germany declared war on the United States...so the United States reciprocated.Originally posted by liquidmoe
WWII American intervention on the European front wasn't to stop Hitler, it was to prevent the Soviet Union from taking over all of Europe. They dealt him his first real defeat during WWII on Russian soil and then started kicking his ass back to Germany. When America saw that Russia was taking over all of Europe it had to act, hence the whole East/West Germany thing, and all of the European commie satellite nations that were setup after WWII.
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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...and you are ruled by a tiny little brain.Originally posted by BigPinPin
what reasons???
the nuclear or chemical weapons????
where are they???? the war is over....still see nothing for the reasons they told you TV Guys before...USA is ruled by Hollywood, TV and a snail brain called georgeWhen you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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he's not succeeding !!!! to fight terrorism you need intelligence, not faster jets and the US should try to invest more into intelligence than into multi billion weapons orders: you defeat terrorists with knowledge, not with bazooka's.Originally posted by theking
Yes...he has decided to attempt to neutralize or kill our enemies...which I give my to.
Comment
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Well you are half right...you just left off the Democrats who overwhemlingy supported/support the war.Originally posted by Swiftone
Its Bush's war, only republican lap-dogs support it.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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With a single blow, Spaniards were defeated by the terrorists by pulling out troops ... tough nation ...
Islamists will learn to do that to all other nations involved in Iraq, just a huge terrorist attack, and they are out of the game in fear for their lives.$9.95/month for 15000 GB bandwidth monthly, unlimited (sub)domains and MySQL5, PHP4/5, 500 GB disk storage!
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We only had 30 plus in the coalition in the first gulf war.Originally posted by Roger
40 out of 190. Not to mention that UN members where spied at and probably blackmailed. Most of those countries had little choice.
Okay. Now show me peace.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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Hey. Question:Originally posted by LittleMack
Are you kidding me???? WTF, what should we do, just stick our fucking heads in the sand and bow down to these terrorist mother fuckers????? Fuck that, we were attacked and 3000 people, yes, lets all remember that 3000 of our US citizens were murdered. I am proud to be an American and we need to fight this fight. GodDamn man, if we did nothing then we would of been hit again and again and again. Look at Israel. Those poor people have suffered forever. Never give up. I say nuke the fucking bastards!!
So that means bombing the fuck out of an entire country and killing 10x that many civlilians makes it okay?Comment
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ignorant fool: the man said it way before the attack. As many opposition parties have said it in the countries where the governments run after bush. This is just the first to get punished electorally for this, wake up, the world didn't want the Iraqi war, at least 90% of the Spaniards didn't.Originally posted by Cash
With a single blow, Spaniards were defeated by the terrorists by pulling out troops ... tough nation ...
Islamists will learn to do that to all other nations involved in Iraq, just a huge terrorist attack, and they are out of the game in fear for their lives.
If Bush just would have stick to fighting extremists, he would not have been into this trouble, but hel he wanted to slay the whore of Babylon, hopefully he also will get what he deserves.Comment
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theking - it's obvious who you will be voting for.
Do you wear your cowboy hat to bed with you?Comment
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Wrong...Iraq openly supported multiple terrorist orgs in Palestine.Originally posted by TheMaster
Iraq has got nothing to do with terrorism, the sad fact is that because Saddam has been overthrown, a lot more terrorists will come now from Iraq.
When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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If the Spanish send troops to Iraq, then the terrorists are winning by forcing the Spanish into policy they wouldn't have otherwise. If the Spanish don't have troops in Iraq, then the terrorists are winning because the terrorists are making government policy.Originally posted by Cash
With a single blow, Spaniards were defeated by the terrorists by pulling out troops ... tough nation ...
Islamists will learn to do that to all other nations involved in Iraq, just a huge terrorist attack, and they are out of the game in fear for their lives.
According to most people on this thread, left or right, the terrorists have won already in Spain and America.Comment
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Ever here of Catholicism...equals Christian.Originally posted by TheMaster
BTW the Born Again Christians, would be considered a sect over here in Europe.When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
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TheKing is a Bush ass kisser. He'll never admit Bush's policies are bad for America's future.
Comment
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And if Bush wheels out Bin Laden 3 days before the US election,Originally posted by benc
One other comment, in regards how its just a policy change. I read that before the bombing, the other party was favored to win.
So Al Qada, did force change on weakminded people.
Would that give him more votes?
So Al Queda, would basically adjust the voting paterns of the USA.
Week minded, not really.
It wasn't so much that Al Queda set that bomb, it was the fact that the government lied and said it was ETA to get more votes.
That's what caused the change in power, if they'd come out and said ETA have said it wasnt them and we accept that, rather than even after they arrest 3 moroccans, find koran verses, get a tape and letter from Al Queda saying they did it. They still comeout and say we think its ETA.Comment
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Not Bush nessicarily. But he's so far republican(ignorant) he would never consider "talking problems through".Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
TheKing is a Bush ass kisser. He'll never admit Bush's policies are bad for America's future.
Rather see the country bombed.
I mean, they're all a bunch of rag heads and negros anyways - right theking?Comment
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That support wouldn't have anything to do with people being sold a crock of sh*t every time, that they took a while to figure out?Originally posted by theking
Of course it does...in all of the conflicts you listed the people were overwhemlingly in support...except in the later years of the Vietnam conflict.
If US politicians are the representatives of the people (and I believe this is still a republic), is it appropriate for them to build public support - particularly for policies that are going to cost US lives and huge sums of money - based on misinformation and lack of information?
And why is it apparently necessary? Are they afraid that an informed public might make the "wrong" decision. Perhaps so, but isn't that the public's right?Comment
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Originally posted by theking
Ever here of Catholicism...equals Christian.
christianity is the group, catholicism is a subgroup, as is protestantism and orthodox
I say more education, 'cause a lot of people have difficulty with nuances and differences in general, that requere an explaination that is longer than 2 words.
But what can you expect of people who rather elect a man who failed in private life, than intelligent people who have accomplished something.
Again don't elect your looser drinking buddy, who has run 2 companies to the ground, for president. They lack the skills to solve complex problems and don't understand the subtilities of life outside Texas.Comment
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No...and you only think it is obvious...I am not a Republican.Originally posted by BradM
theking - it's obvious who you will be voting for.
Do you wear your cowboy hat to bed with you?When you're running down my country hoss...you're walking on the fighting side of me!
FOR THE LYING LOWLIFE POSTING AS PATHFINDER...http://gfy.com/fucking-around-and-pr...athfinder.htmlComment
![[Dan]](data:image/svg+xml;base64,CgkJCTxzdmcgeG1sbnM9J2h0dHA6Ly93d3cudzMub3JnLzIwMDAvc3ZnJyB2aWV3Qm94PScwIDAgNTAgNTAnPgoJCQkJPHJlY3Qgd2lkdGg9JzEwMCUnIGhlaWdodD0nMTAwJScgZmlsbD0nIzYwNTI0MCcgLz4KCQkJCTx0ZXh0IHg9JzUwJScgeT0nNTAlJyBmaWxsPSd3aGl0ZScgZm9udC13ZWlnaHQ9J2JvbGQnIGZvbnQtZmFtaWx5PSdBcmlhbCcgZm9udC1zaXplPSczMDAlJyBkb21pbmFudC1iYXNlbGluZT0nY2VudHJhbCcgdGV4dC1hbmNob3I9J21pZGRsZSc+WzwvdGV4dD4KCQkJPC9zdmc+CgkJ "[Dan]")
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