xbiz owned = pr stunt from a stuggling board

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  • mryellow
    Confirmed User
    • May 2001
    • 934
    #51
    ok lets look at it like this. we all have a website or 2. now lets say
    that your site has had this happen to it. wouldnt it be fixed by
    now?
    Restoring 2 TGP galleries and restoring the scripts and data used
    on the xBiz site would be another matter. Depending on what
    state the box is in and if the backdoor has been found, it could
    be quite a nightmare with quite a lot of work to do.

    As said before, stop overthinking and just wait for the site to
    come up if you want to visit it. If you don't want to visit it then
    who cares.

    -Ben
    Cyberwurx Hosting
    After trying 5 different hosts, I found the best.
    Since 1997 I've had 2 hours of downtime.
    Fast support, great techs, no hype, no gimmicks.

    <- I in no way endorse whatever just got stuck on the left of my post.

      Comment

      • Nysus
        Confirmed User
        • Aug 2001
        • 7817
        #52
        Hey Ben - Nice press release for Xbiz.



        Cheers,
        Matt
        What name is pr0 / Untouched Markets using these days? Untouched Markets - pr0 - Refund My Money Now

        Someone owes me $2,000 because they didn't do any work that was paid for *pointing at pr0 / William / UntouchedMarkets*

        See http://www.gfy.com/showthread.php?p=16744521 and for more detailed see http://www.gfy.com/showthread.php?t=948645

          Comment

          • mryellow
            Confirmed User
            • May 2001
            • 934
            #53
            geez u guys are wacko.... simply crazy..... devote so much time to
            inventing invisible enemies. I'm just a guy posting what is
            obvious. If you think I'm an xBiz shill then it just shows you are
            paranoid.

            I don't work for xBiz and have not been in communication with
            them at all.

            It's just simple.....

            It's the weekend, best time to hijack I'm sure.

            The server gets pounded into submission. (I'm sure xBiz DDoS'd
            their own box just to upload a new index. pfft)

            A page appears which is updated by a script which thus stops the
            box owners putting up any kind of page of their own as it will be
            replaced by the hackers script.

            The backdoor for this script has probably been hidden by log
            killers, is probably some kind of binary hack and could be
            extremely difficult to find.

            I'm pretty sure xBiz don't have the resources to simply switch to
            a pre-existing backup server.

            None of you have any idea just how hard it would be to restore
            this site. No matter how good the backups are it'll still take a
            great deal of work to get back to how it was.

            This restoration work can not even start until the backdoor is
            found and closed. Which could be a huge job for even a very
            talented admin.

            Think for a second rather than just switching to disgruntled
            mode. xBiz is a webmaster resource not a fortune100. What
            makes you think they have a team of admins watching their box
            24/7 and an office full of people on Sunday escapes me.

            -Ben
            Cyberwurx Hosting
            After trying 5 different hosts, I found the best.
            Since 1997 I've had 2 hours of downtime.
            Fast support, great techs, no hype, no gimmicks.

            <- I in no way endorse whatever just got stuck on the left of my post.

              Comment

              • baddog
                So Fucking Banned
                • Apr 2001
                • 107089
                #54
                Originally posted by mryellow
                geez u guys are wacko.... simply crazy..... devote so much time to
                inventing invisible enemies. I'm just a guy posting what is
                obvious. If you think I'm an xBiz shill then it just shows you are
                paranoid.

                I don't work for xBiz and have not been in communication with
                them at all.

                It's just simple.....

                It's the weekend, best time to hijack I'm sure.

                The server gets pounded into submission. (I'm sure xBiz DDoS'd
                their own box just to upload a new index. pfft)

                A page appears which is updated by a script which thus stops the
                box owners putting up any kind of page of their own as it will be
                replaced by the hackers script.

                The backdoor for this script has probably been hidden by log
                killers, is probably some kind of binary hack and could be
                extremely difficult to find.

                I'm pretty sure xBiz don't have the resources to simply switch to
                a pre-existing backup server.

                None of you have any idea just how hard it would be to restore
                this site. No matter how good the backups are it'll still take a
                great deal of work to get back to how it was.

                This restoration work can not even start until the backdoor is
                found and closed. Which could be a huge job for even a very
                talented admin.

                Think for a second rather than just switching to disgruntled
                mode. xBiz is a webmaster resource not a fortune100. What
                makes you think they have a team of admins watching their box
                24/7 and an office full of people on Sunday escapes me.

                -Ben
                stop making so much sense, this is GFY

                  Comment

                  • makefuckingmoney
                    Confirmed User
                    • Oct 2003
                    • 3277
                    #55
                    Did their whois get changed?

                    I havent bothered to look

                      Comment

                      • pimplink
                        Confirmed User
                        • Jun 2001
                        • 9535
                        #56
                        Cheers!!!!! ya da!

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                          Comment

                          • dig420
                            Confirmed User
                            • May 2001
                            • 9240
                            #57
                            Xbiz and the whole Helmy company are first rate. This isn't something they would do for publicity. They're not that stupid.

                              Comment

                              • Gothbox
                                Confirmed User
                                • May 2003
                                • 140
                                #58
                                Originally posted by SeeSea
                                I know just as much as everyone else right now. I get the same page as everyone else. I am not a spokesperson for XBiz, I am the board hostess. I am hoping things will be back as soon as possible. This is Sunday you know.
                                Well even if you are just the board hostess arent you just a bit curious as to whats going on? Have you not contacted Helmy or someone that might be important over there to see whats going on? Seems strange to me that the moderators havent clued in enough to be asking someone why they cant get into a place they work at.

                                  Comment

                                  • Mr. Marks
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Jun 2001
                                    • 7517
                                    #59
                                    Right on!

                                      Comment

                                      • Dveron
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • Dec 2002
                                        • 2794
                                        #60
                                        Originally posted by papichulo
                                        Right on!
                                        You, my friend, are one fucking annoying sig whore. Ignore activated asshole.
                                        Adult Comics Club - Updated Bi-Daily. 60% Recurring Payouts. Exclusive Comic Content.

                                          Comment

                                          • mammy
                                            Confirmed User
                                            • Jun 2003
                                            • 2279
                                            #61
                                            Originally posted by mryellow


                                            For those disgruntled xBiz moderators.... Guys... We don't care if
                                            you don't like xBiz. Because they have an awesome site, with
                                            awesome newsletters, awesome articles, and awesome forums.
                                            We just don't care if you feel hard done by.

                                            Think for a second on how this reflects on xBiz and their hosting
                                            partners + sponsors and you'll quickly see there is no reason to
                                            do any PR stunt that is so detrimental to business.

                                            -Ben


                                            good idea!


                                            i think if sponsors will learn that it was pr
                                            xbiz will have some probs with ad space

                                            because noone can guarantee that the server will not be off for some days again

                                            million dollars for paysite design

                                            icq 434954667

                                              Comment

                                              • HarlotCash Dyker
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Sep 2003
                                                • 1828
                                                #62
                                                100% PR -
                                                If the site was hacked, there are plenty of guys over at x biz to put this right... Only a matter of changing passwords and the hacked files.
                                                The message has you going back - Not just people who know about x biz, but hundreds of other's who do not know about it.

                                                A stunt - And a very vell thought out one
                                                !!!Harlot Cash<<>>Harlot Cash<<>>Harlot Cash<<>>Harlot Cash!!!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • baddog
                                                    So Fucking Banned
                                                    • Apr 2001
                                                    • 107089
                                                    #63
                                                    Originally posted by Gothbox


                                                    Well even if you are just the board hostess arent you just a bit curious as to whats going on? Have you not contacted Helmy or someone that might be important over there to see whats going on? Seems strange to me that the moderators havent clued in enough to be asking someone why they cant get into a place they work at.
                                                    would you call the Netherlands if you could not get onto a board that you moderated?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • mryellow
                                                        Confirmed User
                                                        • May 2001
                                                        • 934
                                                        #64
                                                        there are plenty of guys over at x biz to put this right
                                                        Who said there was anyone at their office on Sunday?

                                                        Only a matter of changing passwords and the hacked files.
                                                        No it's not.

                                                        You ppl need to use less crack, I'm not saying quit or anything.
                                                        Just don't smoke so much!

                                                        -Ben
                                                        Cyberwurx Hosting
                                                        After trying 5 different hosts, I found the best.
                                                        Since 1997 I've had 2 hours of downtime.
                                                        Fast support, great techs, no hype, no gimmicks.

                                                        <- I in no way endorse whatever just got stuck on the left of my post.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • baddog
                                                            So Fucking Banned
                                                            • Apr 2001
                                                            • 107089
                                                            #65
                                                            Originally posted by HarlotCash Dyker
                                                            100% PR -
                                                            If the site was hacked, there are plenty of guys over at x biz to put this right... Only a matter of changing passwords and the hacked files.
                                                            The message has you going back - Not just people who know about x biz, but hundreds of other's who do not know about it.

                                                            A stunt - And a very vell thought out one
                                                            I really doubt that . . . Alec is smarter than that

                                                            however, should I be proven wrong, and this was a stunt, contrary to your assertions, it was not very well thought out

                                                              Comment

                                                              • 4Pics
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Dec 2001
                                                                • 7952
                                                                #66
                                                                i say its a pr stunt

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • WWC
                                                                    #1 Adult Content Provider
                                                                    • Jul 2003
                                                                    • 11577
                                                                    #67
                                                                    I know Xbiz was doing a whole new revamp and new design...i think it is a marketing stunt...

                                                                    mark my words... there will be a new design and look of xbiz by tomorrow morning :-)
                                                                    [email protected]
                                                                    ICQ : 494-353-230
                                                                    Follow WWC on Twitter CLICK HERE!


                                                                    " CONTENT PROVIDER OF THE YEAR! " ~ 2007 , 2008 & 2009 XBIZ AWARDS WINNER!

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Slave Betty
                                                                        Registered User
                                                                        • Mar 2004
                                                                        • 41
                                                                        #68
                                                                        If there nameservers were changed then it could take several days to get the dns info straightened out and propagated on the net.

                                                                        Want to own someone ?

                                                                        Hack there domain registrar account and change the nameservers.

                                                                        This takes days to repair
                                                                        Slave Betty<br><a href=http://cheriemontana.com><img src=http://www.cherrymontana.com/pubimg/sigbutt001.jpg><br>http://cheriemontana.com</a>

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • kush
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Feb 2001
                                                                            • 3382
                                                                            #69
                                                                            Originally posted by raffi
                                                                            I know Xbiz was doing a whole new revamp and new design...i think it is a marketing stunt...

                                                                            mark my words... there will be a new design and look of xbiz by tomorrow morning :-)
                                                                            That's a confident statement, sir.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • baddog
                                                                                So Fucking Banned
                                                                                • Apr 2001
                                                                                • 107089
                                                                                #70
                                                                                Originally posted by raffi
                                                                                I know Xbiz was doing a whole new revamp and new design...i think it is a marketing stunt...

                                                                                mark my words... there will be a new design and look of xbiz by tomorrow morning :-)
                                                                                well, the deadline has come and gone . . . . so much for marking your words

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • rounders
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Sep 2003
                                                                                    • 2931
                                                                                    #71
                                                                                    crazy to get attention
                                                                                    ICQ#: 153923840

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • undermyspell
                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                        • Sep 2002
                                                                                        • 875
                                                                                        #72
                                                                                        well look like they're back up with a brand spanking new design...

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Raven
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Jul 2001
                                                                                            • 6874
                                                                                            #73
                                                                                            Originally posted by raffi
                                                                                            I know Xbiz was doing a whole new revamp and new design...i think it is a marketing stunt...

                                                                                            mark my words... there will be a new design and look of xbiz by tomorrow morning :-)
                                                                                            I think you only missed by a few hours....so consider your words marked.
                                                                                            Raven

                                                                                            ~RETIRED~

                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                              • bluff
                                                                                                Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                • Jan 2004
                                                                                                • 6253
                                                                                                #74
                                                                                                Originally posted by brand0n


                                                                                                do you know ANYTHING about xbiz what so ever?

                                                                                                do you have 1 post over there?

                                                                                                ok.. well. i do. i know plenty of people over there, and i also know that there server admin is top notch. im TELLING YOU RIGHT NOW ITS A PR STUNT.

                                                                                                take my word for it.
                                                                                                you appear to be right in the end.

                                                                                                Yet, I know everything about xbiz. It was actually the first board I posted at.

                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                  • baddog
                                                                                                    So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                    • Apr 2001
                                                                                                    • 107089
                                                                                                    #75
                                                                                                    have to say, I was one of the first two mods they ever had (back when it was 69spot), and I am very disappointed. I don't know that I will ever go back there

                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                      • baddog
                                                                                                        So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                        • Apr 2001
                                                                                                        • 107089
                                                                                                        #76
                                                                                                        Originally posted by dig420
                                                                                                        They're not that stupid.
                                                                                                        I guess we learn something new every day

                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                          • 4Pics
                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                            • Dec 2001
                                                                                                            • 7952
                                                                                                            #77
                                                                                                            guess mr yellow should be kissing ass as he was dead wrong.

                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                              • webair
                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                • 8531
                                                                                                                #78
                                                                                                                hmm this should get interesting, PR? i'll wait to see how it pans out, but thats not good PR anyway you look at it
                                                                                                                Last edited by webair; 03-08-2004, 01:29 PM.


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                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                  • baddog
                                                                                                                    So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                    • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                    • 107089
                                                                                                                    #79
                                                                                                                    Originally posted by Stephen


                                                                                                                    Ok, Paul, here's "one public statement" > "What rumors?"

                                                                                                                    Seriously, I've had a site hacked, and it took me a day to restore it
                                                                                                                    I like how the one person that did know something continued to mislead us

                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                      • Ludedude
                                                                                                                        Suck it!
                                                                                                                        • Jun 2001
                                                                                                                        • 4432
                                                                                                                        #80
                                                                                                                        Originally posted by 4Pics
                                                                                                                        guess mr yellow should be kissing ass as he was dead wrong.
                                                                                                                        Looks like you may be right.

                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                          • TDF
                                                                                                                            Triple OG nigga on GFY
                                                                                                                            • Mar 2002
                                                                                                                            • 27296
                                                                                                                            #81
                                                                                                                            very very lame stunt
                                                                                                                            Sig heil

                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                              • PMGames
                                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                • May 2003
                                                                                                                                • 494
                                                                                                                                #82
                                                                                                                                Originally posted by baddog
                                                                                                                                have to say, I was one of the first two mods they ever had (back when it was 69spot), and I am very disappointed. I don't know that I will ever go back there

                                                                                                                                ditto.
                                                                                                                                Paul M. Games

                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                  • Doctor Dre
                                                                                                                                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                    • Jan 2001
                                                                                                                                    • 51692
                                                                                                                                    #83
                                                                                                                                    Is it me or xbiz main page don't look like usual ?
                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by rayadp05
                                                                                                                                    I rebooted, deleted temp files, history, cookies and everything...still cannot view the news clip. All I see is that fucking gay ass music video from "Rick Roll". Anyone else have a different link to the news clip?

                                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                                      • Holly
                                                                                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                                                                        • Jun 2003
                                                                                                                                        • 10017
                                                                                                                                        #84
                                                                                                                                        Originally posted by Doctor Dre
                                                                                                                                        Is it me or xbiz main page don't look like usual ?
                                                                                                                                        It's just you. Looks exactly the same to everyone else.
                                                                                                                                        War National Damn Champions Eagle

                                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                                          • baddog
                                                                                                                                            So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                            • Apr 2001
                                                                                                                                            • 107089
                                                                                                                                            #85
                                                                                                                                            why do I find this funny?

                                                                                                                                            Warning: mysql_connect(): Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/tmp/mysql.sock' (61) in /data/web/xbiz/cust01/www-vbulletin/admin/db_mysql.php3 on line 40



                                                                                                                                            There seems to have been a slight problem with the database.
                                                                                                                                            Please try again by pressing the refresh button in your browser.

                                                                                                                                            An E-Mail has been dispatched to our Technical Staff, who you can also contact if the problem persists.

                                                                                                                                            We apologise for any inconvenience.

                                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                                              • llabtaem
                                                                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                • Feb 2004
                                                                                                                                                • 969
                                                                                                                                                #86
                                                                                                                                                That video on the front page "Breaking News" is pretty cool though

                                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                                  • princess
                                                                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                    • Feb 2001
                                                                                                                                                    • 1939
                                                                                                                                                    #87
                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by baddog


                                                                                                                                                    I like how the one person that did know something continued to mislead us
                                                                                                                                                    and one that gave her opinion that worked there for 3 years and knows how things work was acused of having beef with them.

                                                                                                                                                    such a shame
                                                                                                                                                    *HUGS*!
                                                                                                                                                    Marsha

                                                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                                                      • schiz
                                                                                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                        • Nov 2002
                                                                                                                                                        • 1103
                                                                                                                                                        #88
                                                                                                                                                        This is fun!

                                                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                                                          • mryellow
                                                                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                            • May 2001
                                                                                                                                                            • 934
                                                                                                                                                            #89
                                                                                                                                                            Dead wrong?

                                                                                                                                                            If it was a PR stunt then I still stand my ground and say that it's a
                                                                                                                                                            bloody stupid way to get PR.

                                                                                                                                                            [sarcasm]
                                                                                                                                                            I know if I wanted some PR the first thing I'd do is delete every
                                                                                                                                                            single file from my server. I'd remove my sponsors banners who
                                                                                                                                                            pre-pay. I'd remove all incoming links from syndicated sites. I'd
                                                                                                                                                            make sure SE spiders see 404 instead of the thousands of pages
                                                                                                                                                            I've got listed. I'd take down everything. That's the best way to
                                                                                                                                                            get PR. The only way.
                                                                                                                                                            [/sarcasm]

                                                                                                                                                            -Ben
                                                                                                                                                            Cyberwurx Hosting
                                                                                                                                                            After trying 5 different hosts, I found the best.
                                                                                                                                                            Since 1997 I've had 2 hours of downtime.
                                                                                                                                                            Fast support, great techs, no hype, no gimmicks.

                                                                                                                                                            <- I in no way endorse whatever just got stuck on the left of my post.

                                                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                                                              • stocktrader23
                                                                                                                                                                Let's do some business.
                                                                                                                                                                • Jan 2003
                                                                                                                                                                • 18781
                                                                                                                                                                #90
                                                                                                                                                                Originally posted by mryellow
                                                                                                                                                                Dead wrong?

                                                                                                                                                                If it was a PR stunt then I still stand my ground and say that it's a
                                                                                                                                                                bloody stupid way to get PR.

                                                                                                                                                                [sarcasm]
                                                                                                                                                                I know if I wanted some PR the first thing I'd do is delete every
                                                                                                                                                                single file from my server. I'd remove my sponsors banners who
                                                                                                                                                                pre-pay. I'd remove all incoming links from syndicated sites. I'd
                                                                                                                                                                make sure SE spiders see 404 instead of the thousands of pages
                                                                                                                                                                I've got listed. I'd take down everything. That's the best way to
                                                                                                                                                                get PR. The only way.
                                                                                                                                                                [/sarcasm]

                                                                                                                                                                -Ben

                                                                                                                                                                Vendzilla

                                                                                                                                                                Moderator
                                                                                                                                                                Shasta Lake, Ca USA
                                                                                                                                                                Posts: 3996
                                                                                                                                                                Registered: Feb 2003
                                                                                                                                                                The fake hack was fun to decode, the last line represented all the people that worked on the new design!!


                                                                                                                                                                __________________


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                                                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                                                  • Steve
                                                                                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                    • Feb 2001
                                                                                                                                                                    • 6894
                                                                                                                                                                    #91
                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by mryellow
                                                                                                                                                                    You ppl need to use less crack, I'm not saying quit or anything.
                                                                                                                                                                    Just don't smoke so much!

                                                                                                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                                                                                                      • mryellow
                                                                                                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                        • May 2001
                                                                                                                                                                        • 934
                                                                                                                                                                        #92
                                                                                                                                                                        originally posted by baddog
                                                                                                                                                                        I really doubt that . . . Alec is smarter than that

                                                                                                                                                                        however, should I be proven wrong, and this was a
                                                                                                                                                                        stunt, contrary to your assertions, it was not very
                                                                                                                                                                        well thought out
                                                                                                                                                                        originally posted by dig420
                                                                                                                                                                        Xbiz and the whole Helmy company are first rate. This
                                                                                                                                                                        isn't something they would do for publicity. They're
                                                                                                                                                                        not that stupid.

                                                                                                                                                                        Well if xBiz is going to use my support and good name to trade
                                                                                                                                                                        PR then they can get fucked in a big way.

                                                                                                                                                                        Fuckin hahahahas.

                                                                                                                                                                        -Ben
                                                                                                                                                                        Cyberwurx Hosting
                                                                                                                                                                        After trying 5 different hosts, I found the best.
                                                                                                                                                                        Since 1997 I've had 2 hours of downtime.
                                                                                                                                                                        Fast support, great techs, no hype, no gimmicks.

                                                                                                                                                                        <- I in no way endorse whatever just got stuck on the left of my post.

                                                                                                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                                                                                                          • mryellow
                                                                                                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                            • May 2001
                                                                                                                                                                            • 934
                                                                                                                                                                            #93
                                                                                                                                                                            Sorry if I doubted you Brand0n

                                                                                                                                                                            xBiz are a shitty stuggling board who thinks very little of their users.

                                                                                                                                                                            Can't blame me for thinking they were better than that.

                                                                                                                                                                            But they are not..... they are on the very bottom of my list now.

                                                                                                                                                                            -Ben
                                                                                                                                                                            Cyberwurx Hosting
                                                                                                                                                                            After trying 5 different hosts, I found the best.
                                                                                                                                                                            Since 1997 I've had 2 hours of downtime.
                                                                                                                                                                            Fast support, great techs, no hype, no gimmicks.

                                                                                                                                                                            <- I in no way endorse whatever just got stuck on the left of my post.

                                                                                                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                                                                                                              • beemk
                                                                                                                                                                                CLICK HERE
                                                                                                                                                                                • Jan 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                • 20829
                                                                                                                                                                                #94
                                                                                                                                                                                i think so too
                                                                                                                                                                                I host with Vacares

                                                                                                                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                                                                                                                  • funkmaster
                                                                                                                                                                                    So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Sep 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                    • 7938
                                                                                                                                                                                    #95
                                                                                                                                                                                    Originally posted by mryellow
                                                                                                                                                                                    Sorry if I doubted you Brand0n

                                                                                                                                                                                    xBiz are a shitty stuggling board who thinks very little of their users.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Can't blame me for thinking they were better than that.

                                                                                                                                                                                    But they are not..... they are on the very bottom of my list now.

                                                                                                                                                                                    -Ben
                                                                                                                                                                                    ... well spoken, btw: they are back, if anyone cares !!

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                                                                                                                                                                                      • SoundMan
                                                                                                                                                                                        So Fucking Banned
                                                                                                                                                                                        • Nov 2003
                                                                                                                                                                                        • 3471
                                                                                                                                                                                        #96
                                                                                                                                                                                        dont care.. short lasted stunt.

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