Is it just me or is Michael moore......

pretty fucked up

The movie IS VIOLENCE IN THE MEDIA man. I dont think it was about gus or crime or anything. My posts were more to the point of him being a wacko and exploiting the people involved to make his point thats all.

WHAT??????

By showing him that picture he was incinuating that he or his organization had something to do with it. Otherwise what was the point of talking to him??

Michael Moore sure is a popular guy :P

mike just holds a mirror up to society and shows us all what is really happening.. gee, shock.. horror.. there's some fucked up shit out there! TONS of violence and hypocricy! His message can be confusing for a lot of people but it is consistant and if you really listen to a lot of what he has to say carefully, and chew on it for a while.. you'll realise that it actually is the aweful truth that not many like to hear.. a reason why many reject it immediately. his methods may shock some people, but the truth he uncovers is that much more shocking and would never see the light of day that it does if milder methods were used.

I hat the guy, but I do think he is smart.
I mean it is so easy to score against Bush and the American weapon Policy. He took a very easy way to become popular. I think he is one of the most irritating persons I have ever seen.

I agree to a point man but its not like we dont know what is hapening in the world or in our own cities. I know it is there and happens every day. I do feel sorry for anyone who is blind to the fact that things like this do happen everyday in every city in this country because i know they are out there and dont have a clue.

I just saw this on TV

after all the blahblahblah about it, it does seem most missed the point.

It really wasn't an anti-gun piece. You think it will be at first..
and maybe some pro-gun people just tuned out or turned it off..
but it slowly changes course.

It's about all the fear being sold to us. By the government who wants your support ... by the media who want the ratings ... And it's about how all that fearmongering results in an exagerated sense of danger.

Kindof a "no wonder why americans have their finger on the trigger"

He goes to Canada to try to prove that point. Lots of guns there.
But they aren't using them on eachother with the frequency that we are.
Why? He thinks it's because they feel safer.

He didn't harrass Charlton Heston for owning a gun.
He (MM) asked if he (CH) had ever been the victim of a crime.
CH said no. So MM asked why he needs a loaded gun laying around.
Why not at least take out the bullets?
again, it's this "constant imminent threat" theme.

The only thing he did chastize the NRA about was the fact that they always seem to show up after tragedys, while families are still grieving, to rally the troops to pre-empt any gun control movement. It's politicising death, and grossly insensitive.

Im not pro gun and never once said that i was here and i got the point of the movie.

My point about the heston thing was the way he went about telling him look at this picture. Weather he was rallying or not. He was not responsible for it and he has his views about freedom to own guns. Do you think there were not a buch of people at the same place saying "see this is why we should ban guns". That is most likely why he was there. Is it any less insensitive for the other side to push thier views on people after a siuation like that???

This was melodrama. Pure theatre. BUT i think the premise was he wanted CH to see that, while he's playing politics, there are real people going through pain and maybe he should give it a rest until the dead are buried..


Of course that is why he is there. That's the fucked up part. He's not fighting an anti-gun lobby. He's fighting the victims. He hears about a tragedy, and rushes into town to hold a pre-emptive rally, just incase some dead kids parent voices concern. Everyone knows the NRAs agenda. They're not saying anything new. Yes, they have the right to express it. But it's the total lack of tactfulness/respect they have, going into that sort of a situation to make their arguements that people find offensive. It's cheerleading at a funeral. It would be like going to NYC days after 9-11, and giving a speech about the folly of american imperialism. Even if your points are valid, it's just the wrong time and place.

the nra? from what i remember, the sessions after columbine were a planned annual thing. it wasn't that they were rushing into town to celebrate gun ownership in the wake of a mishap to capitalize on it...

I only saw this once and I didnt take notes
but even if that NRA rally was planned, it should have been cancelled/postponed. You don't go into town to celebrate guns immediately after a shooting rampage. IIRC even the city officials and everyone was pleading with them to postpone, and Heston cockily showed the letter and laughed.

MARILYN MANSON postponed his shows! lol

And the "already planned" excuse does not apply to the incident we were discussing re: the 6 year old girl who was killed by a boy her age. That tiny town was a shithole noone cared about. There was no reason for Heston to go there until after it got national attention for this death.

The NRA could have just as easily put a statement on their website.
No reason to roll into town with the "cold dead hands" routine.

btw - the other half of this piece was more fucked up IMO
re: the gov't forcing this girls only parent to leave her behind.

This is true...

despite the efforts of some in this thread who wish to rewrite history.

He exposed a lot of stuff. I think its fascinating to watch corpies sqirm when he comes knocking on their door.

The NRA did not run to MI after that incident.

Heston was not in Flint, MI until over a year and a half after that shooting appearing at a Bush capaign rally.

He was not there 48 hours later as the movie would have you believe.

Michael Moore is one the people that make me think that the US of A are not totally a fucked up country

If that's true, then I agree MM is reaching pretty far for this attack.
Seems silly to force this thing, when the exchange was in itself a total tangent from the main focus of the documentary. :shrug:
But I don't care enough to research if MM is presenting the story honestly, or if some stranger on a forum is presenting the story honestly.

btw - you're 4 posts from being 1337

i heard the same, i think broke is correct.

i think part of the conflict of the film is with some of the "stretches" that moore apparently makes, then again i'm just spewing ideas.

Been watching documentaries for many, many years and Michael Moore's for probably a good ten years, the first documentary I remember was "Roger and Me" regarding the depression in Flint, MI. The next I actually remember was his documentary of finding his 70 something mother had been shot by an unknown intruder. His documenntaries do make you thinkl With Bowling for Columbine there were a lot of good points ~ regarding the pic of the child on Heston's property, what stood out more to me in that segment was the following of the 6-year old boy's (the child who killed the little gilr) mother as she rode a bus to work in a rich neighborhood leaving her son to others. The funniest thing and what truly stood out was the South Park animation of the history of the US! That was so friggin funny!! Had no clue the South Park creators were from Columbin as well! His new movie "Dude, Where's My Country?" I have not yet seen but sure look forward to! Guns's are truly the least of our problems! He has clip where Eddie Murphy ( at least I think that's who it was, memory failing me here!) gives a stand up about guns don't kill people, bullets do! and let's make bullets cost $100,000 or something and that will slow the murder rate in this country. He compares the US to several other countires,not just Canada. All in all it is a really good look at how comfortable some are in the world and how many others are never exposed to the "American Dream". It's a good documentary for a thinking mind~
Peace and Love, LadyHarley

i like michael moore...without people like him, who find a way to profit while enlightening people the world would be a much darker place.


Freedom to bear an ak-47 should be the last of your concerns...how about your electoral system? i mean, do you really believe in it? I would be asking a lot more questions then where the fuck are my guns if i was living down south.

what he said in the movie is kinda beside the point. Hes makeing a statement about the state the american society is in. Choose to beleave what you will. All i can say is come live in canada for about 2 years and you will see the diffrence in violence.

dont hate the player hate the game

kewl. ;)

I was wrong on the timeframe -- it was 8 months. But it was a Bush rally not an NRA rally.

Actually -- here's the image he cuts to on the NRA website that makes people link that rally with the girls death and the 48 hour timeframe:



Amazing what you can see in MM films when you have the time.

yikes!

it's true..i know a bunch of people in the states who have no business owning automatic machine guns...if you guys knew them, you'd ask yourself why the hell they have them as well.


and they are tame compared to some of the dudes walking the street with a gun under their jacket

well, if they went through all the trouble to get a class 3 federal firearms license, i'm not too concerned about them owning them.

there's been what, 2 incidents in the last 70 years or so involving a violent crime and a legally owned fully automatic firearm.

ak-47's aren't all class 3 firearms, there is such a thing as a semiautomatic ak47.

"makeshift bed in the shabby crackhouse" "passing parade of strangers" "finds a stolen pistol" ... lol ... lots of questionable presentation on both sides IMO.

and what's the focus of this article?
Clinton was wanting safety locks and licensing.. and the NRA doesn't?

Pathetic when positions become so polarized that you're afraid to give even an inch of common sense. Reminds me of guys in wartime trenches killing eachother back and forth over a few feet of dirt.

At one time, I'm sure all are legally owned. Then they get passed on and/or stolen. You can't dismiss these weapons just bc of ownership issues. They should never be in distribution in the first place.

I'm cool with gun ownership for home defense or hunting.
But there's no good reason for my neighbour to own a weapon capable of killing dozens of people per minute.

i kinda liked bowling for columbine

although i will agree that its liberal propaganda

hahaha, don't worry, he won't do it where you live it, he knows better..

that again proves his point

this has been posted before I think, but people just ignored it. I'll repost: http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

www.bowlingfortruth.com

check it out, you may learn something.

I don't always agree with BillM but I love his sprit and willlingness to say what's on his mind even if it comes off sounding like a jerk. I just got HBO this week because I've missed his show (PI used to be my favorite show). I forgot Dennis Miller is also on HBO. I'll be checking him out too, even though I tend to agree with him less often than Maher; I've always enjoyed his slant on the news.

ok, seriously, this site is 'reaching' to respond harder than MM's film

1) He's not totally blind and therefore hit the target 10/10 times at his permit test.
2) I don't believe there are any exceptions in the constitution(And shouldn't be!). So the right to bear arms exends to the 'blind' man as well.

That aside, read the part about getting a free gun from the bank and lockheed martin:-)

Fear is the total cruxt of everything in this day and age. Ruling by fear, keeping the population docile by fear. Fear of those not like me fear. The whole purpose of the Bush administration is fear, he and his secret society cronies rule by fear. I'd never thought I'd see the day when the US population would agree to the search and seizure they now do and all because of the fear generated by Bush. I straight don't buy his crap and glad to see at least one guy, white one at that, who does not buy into the fear brigade and secret trials and secret government we are now experiencing. Way too close to the way Hitler started his rule with, get the people afraid and wanting the "government" to protect them and soon fear will rule the herd and they will go off the cliff so willingly. Scary, scary thing when people no longer think for themselves or even question what seems so obviously obtuse~ the most dangerous person or animal is one who is afraid.

One of the most common misconceptions about Bowling For Columbine is that it is an anti-gun film. He explains in the movie that Canada has almost as many guns as us yet has WAY less violent crime / murders. I think the point of the docu-drama (too staged to call it a documentary) was that the media in the US uses fear to get ratings, and the side effect of this is violence.

At least, that's what I got from the film. (The last 20 minutes are crucial)

Of course it is and we can debate that elsewhere...

The fact of the matter remains that MM used a headline on the NRA website to deceive all of the movies viewers into believing that CH and the NRA ran to Flint, MI to 'rally the troops' 48 hours after a six year old was shot and killed.

You are proof positive that he succeeded in his ploy.

This is the problem most of us that 'get it (the movie)' have with this 'documentary'.






Cool -- now I'm 1337...

http://www.revoketheoscar.com/

I don't really like a lot of the stunts he pulls, he's a bit of a publicity whore. But, at least he's making people think, and question all the bullshit they're being spoon fed by the networks and the government. His movie Fahrenheit 911 (great name), is going to cause huge controversy if released. It's all about Bush using 9/11 to push his agenda and it also talks about the Bush/Bin Laden connection.

Unfortunately, there's going to be some major outrage, either because of the upcoming bio attack on the US, the upcoming capture of "Bin Laden", or something else, and Mel Gibson's production company is going to decide it's not appropriate to realize the movie. At least, not until after the election. That's my prediction. Why else would a huge Republican like Mel Gibson produce a movie like this?

are you a stupid white male?

The cartoon in Bowling for Columbine wasn't made by the South Park guys and Dude, Where's my Country is a book, not a movie. Oh, and Chris Rock said the bullet joke and it was $5000. Just FYI.

I agree with you though.

I love it when you guys read something online and its gospel. One of the benefits of publishing articles like the two sites against Mr. Moore are there no lawyers checking for facts or a company saying what do you have to back this up. If Mr. Moore was making shit up he would be sued and he hasnt been sued also films just dont get released the company reviews the film and sees if there is a chance for liabilty.The man must be doing something right Mel Gibson is funding his next documentary. For the person who said he is a piece of shit , he came from nothing, now is a best selling author, a award winning film maker and he makes millions of Americans think. What have you done in your life? lol You think Moore is full of shit read Al Franken's book where he used a team of researchers to tear apart right wing bullshit and he uses facts and documents not his opinions.

How to Deal with the Lies and the Lying Liars When They Lie about "Bowling for Columbine"
by Michael Moore






Look, I accept the fact that, if I go after the Thief-in-Chief ? and more people buy my book than any other nonfiction book last year ? then that is naturally going to send a few of his henchmen after me. Fine. That's okay. I knew that before I got into this and I ain't whining about it now.

I also realize that you just don't go after the NRA and its supporters and then not expect them to come back at you with both barrels (so to speak). These are not nice people and they don't play nice ? that's how they got to be so powerful.

So, a whole host of gun lobby groups and individual gun nuts have put up websites where the smears on me range from the pre-adolescent (I'm a "crapweasel," and a "fat fucking piece of shit") to Orwellian-style venom ("Michael Moore hates America!").

I have mostly ignored this silliness. But a few weeks ago, this lunatic crap hit the mainstream fan. CNN actually put some guy on a show saying that my film contains "so many falsehoods, one after the other, after the other, after the other." They introduced him as a "critic" and "research director" of the "Independence Institute." He seemed mighty impressive.

Except they failed to tell their viewers who he really was: a contributing editor of Gun Week Magazine.

CNN saw no need to inform the viewers that their "expert"-- who has made a career out of opposing any form of gun control?has a vested interest in convincing the public that "Bowling for Columbine" is a horribly rotten movie.

So, what do you do when the nutcases succeed in getting on CNN? Do you just keep ignoring them? How do you handle people who say the Holocaust never happened or that monkeys fly? Ignore them and they'll go away? If you give them any attention, all the nuts will come out of the woodwork.

And that's what happened. I saw another one of these lunatics, this time on MSNBC. A guy named John Lofton. He went on and on about how my movie is all made up. The anchor on MSNBC never challenged him on his lies and never told the viewers who he really was ? a right wing crazy who believes Bush is too liberal. He was once an advisor to Pat Buchanan's Presidential campaign, and was a direct-mail writer for Jesse Helms. Writing in opposition to Hate Crime bills in the conservative Washington Times (where he was a columnist from '83 to '89), Lofton explained:

Take, for example, this business of so-called "anti-gay violence." This bill will be used to go after only those who commit crimes against people because they are homosexuals. But this is not the most pernicious form of "anti-gay violence." Not by a long shot.
The most violent - indeed fatal 100 percent of the time - form of "anti-gay violence" has been committed not by so-called "homophobes" who bash homosexuals - but by male homosexuals and bisexuals against other male bisexuals and homosexuals.
To date, tens of thousands of male bisexual and homosexual men are dead in our country because of AIDS, because they engaged in high-risk homosexual sex.
Is this not "anti-gay violence" which numbers its victims far beyond anything any "homophobes" have done?
Well, I figured I better deal with this because the nutters were now being turned into "respectable critics" by a media that either had an agenda or were just plain lazy.

So, how crazy are the things they've said about "Bowling for Columbine?" Here are my favorites:

"That scene where you got the gun in the bank was staged!"
Well of course it was staged! It's a movie! We built the "bank" as a set and then I hired actors to play the bank tellers and the manager and we got a toy gun from the prop department and then I wrote some really cool dialogue for me and them to say! Pretty neat, huh?

Or...

The Truth: In the spring of 2001, I saw a real ad in a real newspaper in Michigan announcing a real promotion that this real bank had where they would give you a gun (as your up-front interest) for opening up a Certificate of Deposit account. They promoted this in publications all over the country ? "More Bang for Your Buck!"

There was news coverage of this bank giving away guns, long before I even shot the scene there. The Chicago Sun Times wrote about how the bank would "hand you a gun" with the purchase of a CD. Those are the precise words used by a bank employee in the film.

When you see me going in to the bank and walking out with my new gun in "Bowling for Columbine" ? that is exactly as it happened. Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account. I walked into that bank in northern Michigan for the first time ever on that day in June 2001, and, with cameras rolling, gave the bank teller $1,000 ? and opened up a 20-year CD account. After you see me filling out the required federal forms ("How do you spell Caucasian?") ? which I am filling out here for the first time ? the bank manager faxed it to the bank's main office for them to do the background check. The bank is a licensed federal arms dealer and thus can have guns on the premises and do the instant background checks (the ATF's Federal Firearms database?which includes all federally approved gun dealers?lists North Country Bank with Federal Firearms License #4-38-153-01-5C-39922).

Within 10 minutes, the "OK" came through from the firearms background check agency and, 5 minutes later, just as you see it in the film, they handed me a Weatherby Mark V Magnum rifle (If you'd like to see the outtakes, click here).

And it is that very gun that I still own to this day. I have decided the best thing to do with this gun is to melt it down into a bust of John Ashhahahahaha and auction it off on E-Bay (more details on that later). All the proceeds will go to The Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence to fight all these lying gun nuts who have attacked my film and make it possible on a daily basis for America's gun epidemic to rage on.

Here's another whopper I've had to listen to from the pro-gun groups:

"The Lockheed factory in Littleton, Colorado, has nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction!"
That's right! That big honkin' rocket sitting behind the Lockheed spokesman in "Bowling for Columbine"-- the one with "US AIRFORCE" written on it in BIG ASS letters ? well, I admit it, I snuck in and painted that on that Titan IV rocket when Lockheed wasn't looking! After all, those rockets were only being used for the Weather Channel! Ha Ha Ha! I sure fooled everyone!!

Or....

The Truth: Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons-maker in the world. The Littleton facility has been manufacturing missiles, missile components, and other weapons systems for almost half a century. In the 50s, workers at the Littleton facility constructed the first Titan intercontinental ballistic missile, designed to unleash a nuclear warhead on the Soviet Union; in the mid-80s, they were partially assembling MX missiles, instruments for the minuteman ICBM, a space laser weapon called Zenith Star, and a Star Wars program known as Brilliant Pebbles.

In the full, unedited interview I did with the Lockheed spokesman, he told me that Lockheed started building nuclear missiles in Littleton and "played a role in the development of Peacekeeper MX Missiles."

As for what's currently manufactured in Littleton, McCollum told me, "They (the rockets sitting behind him) carry mainly very large national security satellites, some we can't talk about." (see him say it here)

Since that interview, the Titan IV rockets manufactured in Littleton have been critical to the war effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. These rockets launched advanced satellites that were "instrumental in providing command-and-control operations over Iraq...for the rapid targeting of Navy Tomahawk cruise missiles involved in Iraqi strikes and clandestine communications with Special Operations Forces." (view source here).

That Lockheed lets the occasional weather or TV satellite hitch a ride on one of its rockets should not distract anyone from Lockheed's main mission and moneymaker in Littleton: to make instruments that help kill people. That two of Littleton's children decided to engineer their own mass killing is what these guys and the Internet crazies don't want to discuss.

The oddest of all the smears thrown at "Bowling for Columbine" is this one:

"The film depicts NRA president Charlton Heston giving a speech near Columbine; he actually gave it a year later and 900 miles away. The speech he did give is edited to make conciliatory statements sound like rudeness."
Um, yeah, that's right! I made it up! Heston never went there! He never said those things!

Or....

The Truth: Heston took his NRA show to Denver and did and said exactly what we recounted. From the end of my narration setting up Heston's speech in Denver, with my words, "a big pro-gun rally," every word out of Charlton Heston's mouth was uttered right there in Denver, just 10 days after the Columbine tragedy. But don't take my word ? read the transcript of his whole speech. Heston devotes the entire speech to challenging the Denver mayor and mocking the mayor's pleas that the NRA "don't come here." Far from deliberately editing the film to make Heston look worse, I chose to leave most of this out and not make Heston look as evil as he actually was.

Why are these gun nuts upset that their brave NRA leader's words are in my film? You'd think they would be proud of the things he said. Except, when intercut with the words of a grieving father (whose son died at Columbine and happened to be speaking in a protest that same weekend Heston was at the convention center), suddenly Charlton Heston doesn't look so good does he? Especially to the people of Denver (and, the following year, to the people of Flint) who were still in shock over the tragedies when Heston showed up.

As for the clip preceding the Denver speech, when Heston proclaims "from my cold dead hands," this appears as Heston is being introduced in narration. It is Heston's most well-recognized NRA image ? hoisting the rifle overhead as he makes his proclamation, as he has done at virtually every political appearance on behalf of the NRA (before and since Columbine). I have merely re-broadcast an image supplied to us by a Denver TV station, an image which the NRA has itself crafted for the media, or, as one article put it, "the mantra of dedicated gun owners" which they "wear on T-shirts, stamp it on the outside of envelopes, e-mail it on the Internet and sometimes shout it over the phone.". Are they now embarrassed by this sick, repulsive image and the words that accompany it?

I've also been accused of making up the gun homicide counts in the United States and various countries around the world. That is, like all the rest of this stuff, a bald-face lie. Every statistic in the film is true. They all come directly from the government. Here are the facts, right from the sources:

The U.S. figure of 11,127 gun deaths comes from a report from the Center for Disease Control. Japan's gun deaths of 39 was provided by the National Police Agency of Japan; Germany: 381 gun deaths from Bundeskriminalamt (German FBI); Canada: 165 gun deaths from Statistics Canada, the governmental statistics agency; United Kingdom: 68 gun deaths, from the Centre for Crime and Justice studies in Britain; Australia: 65 gun deaths from the Australian Institute of Criminology; France: 255 gun deaths, from the International Journal of Epidemiology.

Finally, I've even been asked about whether the two killers were at bowling class on the morning of the shootings. Well, that's what their teacher told the investigators, and that's what was corroborated by several eyewitness reports of students to the police, the FBI, and the District Attorney's office. I'll tell you who wasn't there -- me! That's why in the film I pose it as a question:

"So did Dylan and Eric show up that morning and bowl two games before moving on to shoot up the school? And did they just chuck the balls down the lane? Did this mean something?"
Of course, it's a silly discussion, and it misses the whole, larger point: that blaming bowling for their killing spree would be as dumb as blaming Marilyn Manson.

But the gun nuts don't want to discuss either specific points or larger issues because when that debate is held, they lose. Most Americans want stronger gun laws (among others, see the 2001 National Gun Policy Survey from the University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center) ? and the gun lobbies know it. That is why it's critical to distract and alter the debate ? and go after anyone who questions why we have so many gun deaths in America (especially if he does it in best selling books and popular films).

I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true. Three teams of fact-checkers and two groups of lawyers went through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure that every statement of fact is indeed an indisputable fact. Trust me, no film company would ever release a film like this without putting it through the most vigorous vetting process possible. The sheer power and threat of the NRA is reason enough to strike fear in any movie studio or theater chain. The NRA will go after you without mercy if they think there's half a chance of destroying you. That's why we don't have better gun laws in this country ? every member of Congress is scared to death of them.

Well, guess what. Total number of lawsuits to date against me or my film by the NRA? NONE. That's right, zero. And don't forget for a second that if they could have shut this film down on a technicality they would have. But they didn't and they can't ? because the film is factually solid and above reproach. In fact, we have not been sued by any individual or group over the statements made in "Bowling for Columbine?" Why is that? Because everything we say is true ? and the things that are our opinion, we say so and leave it up to the viewer to decide if our point of view is correct or not for each of them.

So, faced with a thoroughly truthful and honest film, those who object to the film's political points are left with the choice of debating us on the issues in the film ? or resorting to character assassination. They have chosen the latter. What a sad place to be.

Actually, I have found one typo in the theatrical release of the film. It was a caption that read, "Willie Horton released by Dukakis and kills again." In fact, Willie Horton was a convicted murderer who, after escaping from furlough, raped a woman and stabbed her fiancé, but didn't kill him. The caption has been permanently corrected on the DVD and home video version of the film and replaced with, "Willie Horton released. Then rapes a woman." My apologies to Willie Horton and the Horton family for implying he is a double-murderer when he is only a single-murderer/rapist. And my apologies to the late Lee Atwater who, on his deathbed, apologized for having engineered the smear campaign against Dukakis (but correctly identified Mr. Horton as a single-murderer!).

Well, there you have it. I suppose the people who tell their make-believe stories about me and my work will continue to do so. Maybe they should be sued for knowingly libeling me. Or maybe I'll just keep laughing ? laughing all the way to the end of the Bush Administration -- scheduled, I believe, for sometime in November of next year.

Yours,

Michael Moore
Director, "Bowling for Columbine"

PS. From now on, I will deal with all wacko attackos on this page. If you hear something about me that doesn't sound quite right, check in here

I don't believe he said or implied that Heston was responsible for anything. He was asking him to show a little sympathy to the family.