Microsoft's Secret Plan To Stop Spammers and It's Brilliant!

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  • KRL
    Entrepreneur
    • Oct 2002
    • 31429

    #1

    Microsoft's Secret Plan To Stop Spammers and It's Brilliant!

    "The general idea is to force the sender of an e-mail to incur some kind of cost," said Cynthia Dwork, a senior researcher based at Microsoft's Silicon Valley facility.

    The codename Penny Black is derived from an 1830s stamp used in Britain that reversed the cost of postage to the sender, rather than the original method of charging the letter recipient.

    Similarly, an e-mail sender's computer would be required to spend about 10 seconds solving a complex math problem and attaching proof of the effort to a message, Dwork said.

    For most users sending anywhere from a few to several dozen e-mails daily, that doesn't amount to too much computation time. Spammers who send millions of messages, however, would have to buy racks of computers.

    "The currency in this case is computational," Dwork said.

    Making spammers pay is not a new concept -- another similar model being considered is the "challenge-response" scenario whereby an e-mail recipient would require the sender to answer a question in order to accept a message.
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  • - Jesus Christ -
    Confirmed User
    • Mar 2003
    • 7197

    #2
    Fucking ingenious!

    Amen

    Comment

    • SleazyDream
      I'm here for SPORT
      • Jul 2001
      • 41470

      #3
      just shoot the 200 or so major spammers out there and no more problem
      This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog!

      Now read without the word dog.

      Comment

      • Joshua
        Confirmed User
        • Feb 2002
        • 1450

        #4
        All these methods they come up with can and will just end up annoying the rest of the world. I don't care if I only send 2 emails out, I don't want to submit a damn sperm sample for the people to accept the fucking thing.
        SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

        Comment

        • Babagirls
          Text Writer
          • Feb 2001
          • 18812

          #5
          Nice!!!!!




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          • Brad Xtremepay
            So Fucking Banned
            • Dec 2003
            • 2000

            #6
            KRL: Can you ICQ me please?

            Comment

            • - Jesus Christ -
              Confirmed User
              • Mar 2003
              • 7197

              #7
              Originally posted by Joshua
              All these methods they come up with can and will just end up annoying the rest of the world. I don't care if I only send 2 emails out, I don't want to submit a damn sperm sample for the people to accept the fucking thing.
              Dude if your Mail is delayed 10 seconds and the software does the computations in the background who gives a fuck?

              It could make mailing lists harder to distribute but all they would have to do is let you accept mail that does not have computation verification on a sender/server basis.

              Amen

              Comment

              • Titty Fucker
                Confirmed User
                • Dec 2003
                • 589

                #8
                Her last name is Dwork.


                Kinda fitting for a microsoft employee.

                Comment

                • KRL
                  Entrepreneur
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 31429

                  #9
                  Originally posted by SleazyDream
                  just shoot the 200 or so major spammers out there and no more problem


                  LOL, that would need to go to the "non tech" guys to write code for.

                  If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor
                  from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION!

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                  • TheJimmy
                    ICQ- five seven 0 2 5 5 0
                    • Jan 2001
                    • 10747

                    #10
                    interesting, it could 'slow' things down for a while...
                    Investor with 5m - 15m USD to invest. Do you have a site or network of sites earning 50k - 200k a month income? Email your contact and preliminary data to: domain.cashventures (at) gmail.com....Please...no tire kickers...serious offers and inquiries only.

                    Comment

                    • Chasing The Dragon
                      Confirmed User
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 145

                      #11
                      VerifiedMailer.com
                      Chance favors the prepared mind.

                      Comment

                      • jacobt
                        Confirmed User
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 174

                        #12
                        i don't see how microsoft plans to implement this. it's not in their nature to release something for free - especially when people will pay for it. unless they're willing to give it away so basically every person in the world can use it for free with any e-mail client, not just outlook i don't think this idea really has a future.

                        a more realistic approach would be actually regulating spam and rewarding the spammers that abide by the rules with access to massive hosts like hotmail and yahoo on a limited basis without filtering.
                        icq: 164577216 | skype: jacobt2003

                        Comment

                        • BradShaw
                          Confirmed User
                          • Oct 2001
                          • 7840

                          #13
                          Making spammers pay is not a new concept -- another similar model being considered is the "challenge-response" scenario whereby an e-mail recipient would require the sender to answer a question in order to accept a message.

                          Works for me.
                          Sig too big

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                          • Cyborg69
                            So Fucking Banned
                            • Apr 2002
                            • 932

                            #14
                            The gates plan is bs
                            what he wanted to do is charge say a penny for email.... % of which he will get for trasfering the payment... also say this will be implimented spam will stop next day say but we will still have to pay for that bs and microsoft will get richer and richer...

                            all his plans are beneficial to microsoft one way or another...

                            Comment

                            • Joshua
                              Confirmed User
                              • Feb 2002
                              • 1450

                              #15
                              Originally posted by - Jesus Christ -
                              Dude if your Mail is delayed 10 seconds and the software does the computations in the background who gives a fuck?

                              It could make mailing lists harder to distribute but all they would have to do is let you accept mail that does not have computation verification on a sender/server basis.
                              The delaying thing isn't really what I'm complaining about. It's the "having to answer a question" bull shit.
                              SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

                              Comment

                              • Odin88
                                Confirmed User
                                • Jul 2003
                                • 3267

                                #16
                                I hardly see how it ingenious? Such number or computer verification things have been around for ages, and they could easily be altered to suit email purposes. The only reason it will work in this instance, is because Gates is the one pushing it.

                                Comment

                                • Ic3m4nZ
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Aug 2003
                                  • 6285

                                  #17
                                  Microsoft might win a battle but they won't win the war.

                                  Comment

                                  • sacX
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Dec 2002
                                    • 2998

                                    #18
                                    not a bad idea.
                                    Have Asian Language Traffic?

                                    Comment

                                    • TweetyBird
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Feb 2004
                                      • 8532

                                      #19
                                      hmmm, might actualy work
                                      sig for sale.
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                                      Comment

                                      • Ash@phpFX
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • Nov 2003
                                        • 4292

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by KRL
                                        "The general idea is to force the sender of an e-mail to incur some kind of cost," said Cynthia Dwork, a senior researcher based at Microsoft's Silicon Valley facility.

                                        The codename Penny Black is derived from an 1830s stamp used in Britain that reversed the cost of postage to the sender, rather than the original method of charging the letter recipient.

                                        Similarly, an e-mail sender's computer would be required to spend about 10 seconds solving a complex math problem and attaching proof of the effort to a message, Dwork said.

                                        For most users sending anywhere from a few to several dozen e-mails daily, that doesn't amount to too much computation time. Spammers who send millions of messages, however, would have to buy racks of computers.

                                        "The currency in this case is computational," Dwork said.

                                        Making spammers pay is not a new concept -- another similar model being considered is the "challenge-response" scenario whereby an e-mail recipient would require the sender to answer a question in order to accept a message.
                                        what a pile of shit. the penny black was issued in 1840

                                        Comment

                                        • foolio
                                          ICQ: 178725656
                                          • Nov 2002
                                          • 12366

                                          #21
                                          This sounds liek a good idea to me. I hate spam and the dicksnots that send it

                                          Comment

                                          • BrentD
                                            ZothNET.com
                                            • May 2003
                                            • 1426

                                            #22
                                            Doubtful this would work, for starters its Microsoft Technology which means it would run on windows pc's and servers. Any spammer with a brain sets a strong linux or freebsd server with qmail which handles millions of emails daily alot stronger then sendmail does and alot faster too. Then the spammer sets up a mailing lsit program which is capable of sending hundreds of email a minute if not a second. Thus not using Microsofts technology to send spam. But....if I read the above right, it might never make it to the windows users pc's because of windows having to read the math hiden in the email to consider it a legit email, so basically put this way, *nix to *nix email spams would not stop. Am I wrong?
                                            THIS FORUM SUCKS - RUDE ASS IDIOTS!!!

                                            Comment

                                            • pornoshare
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Dec 2003
                                              • 237

                                              #23
                                              Its all good in theory, but how do lists send mail with the delay then.

                                              There are thousands of companies with legitimate lists of millions+ of customers. Lots of these newsletters deal with time sensitive information. eg. stock quotes, virus alerts etc that need to be delivered on time.

                                              I would like to know how does Microsoft itself plan on sending its legitimate newsletters to its hundreds of thousands of developers and millions of customers using technology based on this principle.

                                              Comment

                                              • TheJimmy
                                                ICQ- five seven 0 2 5 5 0
                                                • Jan 2001
                                                • 10747

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by BrentD
                                                Doubtful this would work, for starters its Microsoft Technology which means it would run on windows pc's and servers. Any spammer with a brain sets a strong linux or freebsd server with qmail which handles millions of emails daily alot stronger then sendmail does and alot faster too. Then the spammer sets up a mailing lsit program which is capable of sending hundreds of email a minute if not a second. Thus not using Microsofts technology to send spam. But....if I read the above right, it might never make it to the windows users pc's because of windows having to read the math hiden in the email to consider it a legit email, so basically put this way, *nix to *nix email spams would not stop. Am I wrong?





                                                actually it's perfect for him to use this model to "SELL" more people to STAY WITH MS products, instead of leaving as many in S. America and Germany have been doing on large municiple levels...


                                                if he can say MS products block all spam and that using *nix desktops or servers ALLOW it, how sweet is that for him???

                                                annnnd, I'm sure he's thought of ACTUALLY charging per email....

                                                the post office and the US gov would love him for it...big brother already loves him....
                                                Investor with 5m - 15m USD to invest. Do you have a site or network of sites earning 50k - 200k a month income? Email your contact and preliminary data to: domain.cashventures (at) gmail.com....Please...no tire kickers...serious offers and inquiries only.

                                                Comment

                                                • mrthumbs
                                                  salad tossing sig guy
                                                  • Apr 2002
                                                  • 11702

                                                  #25
                                                  email has the same specs as the platform it is used on, the internet: you cant nuke it and you cant nuke spam.

                                                  It would be easier for microsoft to setup another Internet standard than implementing those facilities.

                                                  Individuals will setup challenge and response systems to kill spam
                                                  but that will never be a widely accepted and used system because
                                                  of the overhead with the potential of losing emails/business leads.

                                                  Email spam will be gone in a few years because
                                                  people will get sick of using email since instnat messenging
                                                  is growing more and more popular ANd is more direct and effective
                                                  than email.

                                                  Well basicly move to a new default communication platform
                                                  and spam will move along ;)

                                                  3 years.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • KRL
                                                    Entrepreneur
                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                    • 31429

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by pornoshare
                                                    Its all good in theory, but how do lists send mail with the delay then.

                                                    There are thousands of companies with legitimate lists of millions+ of customers. Lots of these newsletters deal with time sensitive information. eg. stock quotes, virus alerts etc that need to be delivered on time.

                                                    I would like to know how does Microsoft itself plan on sending its legitimate newsletters to its hundreds of thousands of developers and millions of customers using technology based on this principle.
                                                    You don't see where he's going with it? Legit companies would have to register to clear the filter. And I'm sure BillG / MS would want a fee to clear you.

                                                    Fucker likes being the gatekeeper to everything. He's like the ultimate club bouncer with the famous red rope. You want in? You gotta get by me first.

                                                    If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor
                                                    from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION!

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                                                    Comment

                                                    • born4porn
                                                      FUKM ALL!
                                                      • Jan 2004
                                                      • 38781

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Cyborg69
                                                      The gates plan is bs
                                                      what he wanted to do is charge say a penny for email.... % of which he will get for trasfering the payment... also say this will be implimented spam will stop next day say but we will still have to pay for that bs and microsoft will get richer and richer...

                                                      all his plans are beneficial to microsoft one way or another...
                                                      bingo

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JensMoviePost
                                                        Confirmed User
                                                        • Jan 2004
                                                        • 319

                                                        #28
                                                        Governments need to make spam a crime in which the guilty serve jail time.
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                                                        • Mr.Fiction
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Feb 2002
                                                          • 9484

                                                          #29
                                                          http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...hreadid=225117
                                                          Don't be lazy, protect free speech: ACLU | Free Speech Coalition | EFF | IMPA

                                                          Comment

                                                          • TheDoc
                                                            Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                            • Jul 2001
                                                            • 13827

                                                            #30
                                                            He can't stop spam, the gov can't stop spam and no user can stop spam. Illegal, pay per e-mail and the best filters in the world will never work. The only thing it does is kill the stupid spammers.

                                                            The US gov could make it illegal to spam tomorrow, with jail time and I bet I still get 100+ spams every day. How in hell are they going to arrest people in other countries, or when they can't figure out where it is coming from. They only bust stupid people. Even if you quit mailing Americans, it's only a small % of the pie.

                                                            Bill Gates, come on.. His software is a joke and can be cracked by 8 year old russians in 15 minutes.

                                                            Making a person confirm that they are real only slows the spammer down ONCE. It's easy to write a program to make it click links on a return e-mail before it sends the e-mail back out.



                                                            The only way to stop spam, is to not have an e-mail addess that you check. Rules, software, regulations, laws and sure as hell not bill gates, is ever going to stop spam.
                                                            ~TheDoc - ICQ7765825
                                                            It's all disambiguation

                                                            Comment

                                                            • makefuckingmoney
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Oct 2003
                                                              • 3277

                                                              #31
                                                              Stopping spam is easy..

                                                              I know everyone here is smarter than Microsoft so I wont go on any further..

                                                              but I say Microsoft is right and the rest of you are wrong..

                                                              my

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Lane
                                                                Will code for food...
                                                                • Apr 2001
                                                                • 8496

                                                                #32
                                                                i think this might create opportunities for new types of ddos attacks..
                                                                it would become a simple trigger to cause a system to spend lots of processing time, which would make them easy to flood..

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Snake Doctor
                                                                  I'm Lenny2 Bitch
                                                                  • Mar 2001
                                                                  • 13449

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by jacobt
                                                                  i don't see how microsoft plans to implement this. it's not in their nature to release something for free - especially when people will pay for it.
                                                                  Who said it would be free? The major ISP's would pony up the dough to get the system implemented on their networks.
                                                                  They're the one's who always complain about how much money spam costs them
                                                                  sig too big

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Lane
                                                                    Will code for food...
                                                                    • Apr 2001
                                                                    • 8496

                                                                    #34
                                                                    i kinda like the idea actually

                                                                    for example this is possible:

                                                                    Each server keeps an application running.. Every 30 minutes or so, it generates a large random number X and takes about 10 secs to run it through a process to come up with a resulting number Y.. This server is the email Receiever in our case..

                                                                    Sender connects to the Receiver and transmits the email.. Receiver sends the current number X to the Sender.. Now the Sender needs to run this number through the same process and come up with the number Y and send it to the reciever.. After a specific amount of time, if the number Y is not receieved by the Receiever, the email is discarded..

                                                                    This costs 10 seconds of processing time to the Receiver every 30 minutes.. But it costs 10 seconds of processing time to the Sender for every single email sent..

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Giorgio_Xo
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Mar 2003
                                                                      • 4263

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Won't massive Linux clusters bypass this?
                                                                      Make Levees, Not War

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Shoehorn!
                                                                        Die With Your Boots On
                                                                        • Oct 2003
                                                                        • 22872

                                                                        #36
                                                                        That is a pretty good idea. But I guarantee there will be a way around it before the thing is ever released. Someone is probably reverse engineering it right now.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • funkmaster
                                                                          So Fucking Banned
                                                                          • Sep 2001
                                                                          • 7938

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by KRL

                                                                          Similarly, an e-mail sender's computer would be required to spend about 10 seconds solving a complex math problem and attaching proof of the effort to a message, Dwork said.
                                                                          ... damn, that is fucking smart, let me be the first to sell patched systems, I'd make a killer.

                                                                          Oh no, wait a minute, I just keep some old linux boxes, they'll be worth millions in 20 years time.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • slackologist
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Jul 2002
                                                                            • 2379

                                                                            #38
                                                                            i can see that getting hacked pretty fast, nice idea though.. would take many years to implement it effectivley i'd think.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • wsjb78
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Jun 2002
                                                                              • 594

                                                                              #39
                                                                              I use TMDA as challenge / response system and works fine for me.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • VirtuMike
                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                • May 2002
                                                                                • 2483

                                                                                #40
                                                                                The only expense I'm going to incur is a legal bill from when we go after the authors of said plan for forcing us to use unnecessary computing time to send mail. Imagine - the real spammers are going to run massive clusters, which by the way aren't that expensive anymore, but Joe Surfer is going to take 45 minutes to get an email out to his dad on his p2-300 with 64 megs of ram.

                                                                                Can we say "class action"?
                                                                                Host it in AMSTERDAM at EUROTIVITY! - We also offer BACKUP SERVICES!

                                                                                XYZZY4L

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Trax
                                                                                  [----------------------]
                                                                                  • Aug 2001
                                                                                  • 14486

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  its a dream
                                                                                  lets see what happens

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Merrioc
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Jul 2003
                                                                                    • 249

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Does make any sense to me. How are they going to know I am sending an email? what if I use outlook???? The port?

                                                                                    so its going to effect all the legit mailers and spammers are going to use a simple C++/vb mailer they write themselves, or there just gonna get Cygwin and run a unix based mailer from there PC.

                                                                                    Concept is good but as usual with anything MS does its flawed. Now if they had done this as an Open source project then maybe they would have seen that the idea blows. This is do different then setting a rate limit on a mail server.

                                                                                    there time would be better spent figuring out how to make there servers not so damn vulnerable to relaying

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • slapass
                                                                                      Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                                      • Nov 2002
                                                                                      • 14625

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Spam is way down for me. Add in all the other barriers and anything that is new should keep closing down the weak hands.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • synergysex
                                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                                        • Jan 2004
                                                                                        • 461

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        This is no secret - the idea has been floating around out there for a long time. And it is not a good idea unless you are Bill Gates. In fact, its one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard of.

                                                                                        E-mail was meant to be a low-cost alternative to using traditional communications mediums like telephones. It was purposefully meant to be unlimited and free or as close as possible to that. Charging for e-mail is a step backwards by about a decade or more - back when AOL and Prodigy charged you a per-mail recived fee.

                                                                                        We don't change the system to correct the misdeeds of a few misfits. We get rid of the misfits. We don't start charging for e-mail simply because there are spammers - we get rid of the spammers.

                                                                                        Its like fighting to make murder, rape or child molestation socially acceptable or perhaps avaliable for a small fee - simply because it exists. Of course we haven't working on doing that and we sure as hell shouldn't for obvious reasons.
                                                                                        Do You Hate Seatbelt Citations? Don't Get Mad, Get Organized!

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • ronbotx
                                                                                          Registered User
                                                                                          • Jan 2002
                                                                                          • 1634

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by SleazyDream
                                                                                          just shoot the 200 or so major spammers out there and no more problem
                                                                                          At the same time , two hundred of the slimiest, crooked, and scammimg, scumbag webmasters would disappear from GFY....
                                                                                          Last edited by ronbotx; 02-07-2004, 06:55 AM.

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • sexsup
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Feb 2004
                                                                                            • 3004

                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            It is a possible solution but I'm not sure it will works

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