How profitable are link lists ?

I have noticed recently that many link sites are gaining top positions with google, and for tonnes of keywords - So the return on sales should be quite lucrative.

Tgp's also do well for se and keywords -

So I guess it's a toss-up to which is easier, less hassle to run!

www.tomsnewbiebooster.com and you shall be enlightened.

i manage link lists and tgps for people for 30% of the profit

Was just asking about link lists, I hope that I will find some responses here.

I've run both, and this is my experience (your mileage may vary).

In terms of time and effort, TGPs are easier than Link Lists. It's simple mathematics. With a TPG, the submission is one page with x number of pictures (I personally would limit it to a max of 16 pics per page - don't give the surfer too much). So you review one page for compliance with your rules, check the pics to make sure they're not blind links, and you're done.
With a LL submission you've got at least 4 pages - the entry page, the main page listing the galleries, and two galleries. (Some folks add in extra pages with stories or more galleries or a list of links, etc). So now you've got at least 4 pages to check for compliance and blind links. It takes you 4 times as long.

With either of them though, you start to know certain submitters, and you can trust that their gallery/site will be in compliance with the rules without even bothering to check it - those "trusted submitters" are fabulous time-savers for you.

In terms of SE rankings, Link Lists are always going to do better. Why? Because there's more text! A 4-page site usually has a nice title and perhaps even a small description (with keywords of course). You can separate things out into categories, and have each category on a different page. You can link to those category pages with keywords, and when the spider arrives on the page he'll find loads of yummy text pertaining to and repeating the keyword. Spiders are very happy with this and gobble it right up.
The listings on a LL also tend to stick around longer; changing less, and being archived more slowly - simply because you don't have 15,000 free sites being submitted every day (unless you're Tommy or GreenGuy of course, hehe). But with a TGP your submissions will quickly override the number of slots you have on your page and you *will* find yourself facing at least 3,000 submissions per day thanks to the automated submitters.

In contrast, with a TGP, the entire directory is usually on one page. Some TGPs just throw everything together (thumbzilla, the hun), while others separate the list of galleries out into 'chunks' of categories. Either way, the listing changes daily. While spiders love "fresh" pages that are updated frequently, there's no keyword concentration on a TGP page (unless you suddenly have a rush of submissions all pushing 'throat poking' in their description). Also there's much less text. Most TGPs limit the submitters to a 15-character description. At most they get 25 or so. So each listing has at most 3-4 words to describe the gallery, and no added 'blurb' that goes into more detail. Every bit of text is a link leading somewhere else, which is kinda spammy and resembles a banner farm, which spiders despise.
There are ways to get around this, though. Have specific categories on your main page - just the categories, not the galleries. Link these category keywords to separate pages listing off all of the galleries having to do with that niche. Now you've increased keyword density and relativity AND you can target ads to your surfers rather than doing a "hit or miss" hodgepodge of ads on one big page.

Serving up ads is also easier on LLs - simply because you can target and filter your surfers. Serve tit ads to surfers who are on the boobs page. If they've navigated over to the boobs page, obviously that's what they're looking for. Showing them a throat-poking banner won't work as well.
BUT, this can also work just as well for a TGP that uses the category sorting that I described above. It just doesn't work on a normal hodgepodge one-page TGP.

There are inherent differences though between LL surfers and TGP surfers. Most LL surfers come from search engine queries, where they're actually putting in the effort to FIND what they want to see. Or they're coming from an interesting-looking recip on a free site (recip traffic is minimal but does exist). So overall, they're more patient and are willing to browse a bit to find something they're looking for. Making them hop a page or two to get them to what they like is no big deal.
Most TGP surfers, on the other hand, rarely come from SE queries. Usually they're from traffic trades where they've been thrown over without their permission, or a cool-looking banner, or a listing from someplace like Sextracker. These folks are impatient. They want to see the pictures, and they want to see them NOW. They've probably been jerked around and bounced around already and they're not going to be as willing to drill down another couple of pages to find what they like. They scan over the page, if they don't see something that grabs their attention, they leave. So while sorting your TGP out into category pages may seem like the best thing to do SE-wise, you'll often find that your traffic won't like it at all.

I would say it's easier to make money from a LL, but that's because your surfers are targeted and you can show them exactly what they want. 'Easy' is also a misnomer, because it takes more time and effort to run a LL.

Starting a LL - you need sites. Usually you can just ask for sites and submissions on the appropriate sections of message boards and get a bunch of good lists to plug right into your script. You can also add your LL to some of the free site submitter programs that are out there, and that will increase the number of sites you have.
You don't want to start buying traffic until you've got enough sites so that your list doesn't look 'empty'. Sure you can send TGP traffic to it, but it won't do as well as better traffic. LLs are more of an "invest the time building it, and focus on SE traffic" project than a "throw it up and buy traffic for it" project like a TGP is.

Yes, LLs get bookmarkers - lots of 'em. Once they find a LL that they like, that doesn't pound them with pop-ups, and actually has sites that pertain to what they're looking for in the categories they're supposed to be in, then they'll bookmark it and come back often. Especially if you update frequently.

Yes, there are already sponsors with free-hosted sites. The quality varies greatly. Most sponsors use TGP designers to make their free sites, or they just hook a couple of their pre-made TGP galleries together and call it a free site. The focus is different and they don't make good free sites. Some sponsors though, know how to make a good free site, or they hire someone who does. You'll need to browse through them yourself and see.

Average CTR on a TGP gallery is 1% if you're lucky or good.
Average CTR on a free site is 2-5%.
Not sure why you're asking that though, since you're talking about running the TGP/LL, not submitting galleries or free sites TO a TGP/LL.

Oh, and when ldinternet told you to go over to Tom's Newbie Booster, he wasn't being facetious. There are a lot of folks there that run their own Link Lists, and Tom's tutorials are invaluable. The folks there also talk about webmastering 90% of the time, compared to here at GFY where they talk about it 2% of the time.

You can ask a question like this at Tom's and get back 10 answers like the one I just gave you, with the ability to discuss things in more detail with the people, or you can ask the question here and pray that someone posts a serious answer (they usually won't), someone actually *has* an answer that they're willing to share (rare), and that they'll bother to look for the thread again later or tomorrow to see if you had any more questions about it.

Tom's is infinitely better than GFY when it comes to asking real questions about the business.

Thanks Carrie, great post.
I asked about free site CTR, since I also asked about free hosted free sites for my eventual link list

i wonder when a link list sufer finally finds a tgp like madthumbs or thehun does he ever go back to the link list

BTW, you were right Carrie about this board.
But on the other hand, this is the biggest adult webmaster board. People sell here bargain content, ocassionally some good domains, discuss lots of current issues like the Visa shits, etc... so it's worthe being here. And it would be hard for me to post regularly on 3 boards.

Good question, BUMP

Great post Carrie! Finally some useful information!

One more question - so basically link lists don't need as much traffic as tgp's, to earn the same amount of money, assuming the link list owner uses some sponsor hosted free sites and wise advertising?

And traffic trading is only through hard links, right?

Right.

It's easy to target through SE since many of them are naive surfers.

what I like with running a linklist is that you don't have to update every fucking day like you have to with a tgp

how often do you update your linklist ?

very very profitable if you know how to use them

Manowar, contact me I might have a client for you! [email protected]

I have friends that are TGP surfers. One of them was telling me he used to love greenguys link list but he can't figure out how to get to the free site listings anymore. He thinks it's all paysites now.

let me say this:
the majority of traffic of ll's should come from search engines.. i dont know how much u can count on it since google is fucking alot of ppl over. so, as long as u have a good listing always, ur good in the bankroll.. but when an update changes u better have other revenue streams

Great info Carrie. Copy it and publish it has a book

It's not that often that someone will make a truly thoughtful response to a question like that here.

If I could add my . With the Google changes, clearly Link Lists will become more important in the mix of adult marketing as will porn search sites (sometimes just another word for Link List).

After the lastest "Google Dance" or what ever you call it now, I think you'll see more attention to Link Lists. I know at Pussy Luvers, we'll be pulling out the stops to make up for the lost Google traffic. BTW, Pussy Luvers is just one of our TGPs.

Yup, that's fair as long as it's working when you get it.

I charge a flat rate for ongoing link management. That gives the newbies a chance to get in on it, but when I think about how many actually have traffic and a marketable product vs how many there are, it's a wash.

Marketable product. That's the key. I don't want to be responsible for some other guy's idea of the product or how to market it.

emailed you

I can't tell you how many times I say that every week.

true... very true

Can somebody please recommend a good script to manage a linklist?

Also- are scripted pages still search engine spider friendly?

http://www.usefulscripts.com/scripts...ial/linkadmin/

If you can't afford the high price, I have a link list manager script that does everything to manage a link list. Let me know.

Kudos to you Carrie, I've copied your post and saved it. GFY is becoming my favorite place to hang

Now.. how about that goods and services auction forum GFY.... and when you do it, make sure I get the credit for the idea ;)

My system is 100% search engine optimized. It was built from the ground up with seo in mind. There is none better.

It's not so much that a script is or is not indexed, it's how the links are managed that is critical. You don't want hundreds of links as much as you want a few real good ones. That doesn't mean you don't want lots of links, but in my view "the many" are tended so that "the few" can be found.

You're thinking "so what's a good link?" That is the key question, and there are lots of answers. No one answer is correct, I've seen many different styles of link management that work great. In general, however, I think it can be said that any successful link program, no matter what the philosophy behind it, only works if a human is tending it. Automate your signup and the list goes to hell.

I'll even venture to say that there are two main philosophies of link mangement. There is the link popularity model, and the traffic model. Link popularity models make links to boost pagerank, and the real traffic comes from search engines. The traffic model is basicly the toplist. It's rare to see a top ranking well, but they can have good traffic if the listmaster tends it right.

I used to run tops but grew to hate the cheater detection grind, so I switched to link pop years ago and never looked back. I've got top rankings now and the cheaters are on someone else's top. I don't miss them one bit.

ICQ for more info on our system.

exactly what i wanted to say ...

big up Carrie...its nice to see some people who for once don t post just for their post count

about 3 times per week

what's your url?
just curious...

www.paparazzis-adult-links.com