So how many atheists and/or non-Jesus believers celebrate Christmas?

god is dead

Which brings up the question, "was God alive?" Which God?

Well I believe a lot of things have been distorted over the centuries and there's many versions of events... so I am not saying the whole Jesus belief is accurate, but most people still believe Christmas is about Jesus, as Webster defines it.

Write them and tell them to do more research

For those of us with children (like me), who are also athiests (like me), the terror of not letting your sons and daughters spend a magical time like Christmas and Easter by understanding the values of family togetherness and giving and sharing just seems ridiculous.

It truly astounds me that you do not get the fact that our society is based on many great christian (and other religions) principles, and the fact we do not believe in your god does not detract from the fact that we live in harmony in true fellowship together.

You sound like you have a problem, and you need to figure out one thing....


"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You".

(i hope that last bit right, and I apologise if I got it wrong, but I hope you all know what Iam trying to say).

jesus...christianity. this is a sore spot of festering hatred for me. it started out as such a great idealic thing. but as soon as people realized that there was money to be made "pimpin" god, it was all over.

not to mention the translation of paraboles in literal hierarchies of power? all things to seperate you from the creator.

captilism and greed have ruined religion and by association the holidays they promote. i don't need a special day on the calander to celebrate being together with my family. i love and cherish them EVERYDAY.

ooops

forgot to add this bit

I respect your views, and I hope you respect mine too

Do the research. Bigfoot lives. Fuckstain.

Jesus died for your sins!

Christmas is Jesus' birthday, everyone knows that.!

YOU WILL ALL ROT IN HELL!

This is a thread about hypocrisy started by a right winger posting on a porn webmaster board.

Think about it.

Huh? Well it is hypocritical, by definition, no?

By the way, I lean to the right but I am not on the far right like so many far left people assume.

As usual for someone with a religious hangup what a fucked up and uneducated thread.

First point is that it's very possible to celebrate christams as a family holiday without going into the religious side of it.

Second point though is if you want to get really anal about it you are in fact celebrating a pagan day. Cover it in what religious bullshit you will it never was Christs birthday or whatever other crap you want to dress it up in, it was a pagan celebration. To say it's a celebration of Christs birthday is no more or less valid than saying it's a time to be with family and have a break fromt he stress this world gives with no religious attachments. Do a little unbiased research and it's easy enough to find that whenever he was meant to have been born it most certainly wasn't in the middle of winter.

But then the whole religion is based on a book written 2000 years ago that contradicts itself at almost every turn and that even many of the major religions using it say huge chunks of is basically untrue. If you're going to believe in it then logical arguments with you are pointless - you have shown a total inability to grasp logic or even basic common sense in the first post.

A lot of defensive people in this thread The thing is, I certainly don't buy into most of what the Bible says and even though I was raised Catholic, I do not believe in everything any organized religion stands for, much less all of Christianity. And I'm certainly not looking down on anyone for their beliefs, everyone is entitled to their own.

Even if Christmas originated as a pagan celebration centuries ago, since then it had become defined as a day to celebrate the birth of Christ, no matter if that was in March or December. That's not my own definition, that's what many people in the world define it as. Only a small percentage of people think of Christmas as a day created by pagans many moons ago. You can't ignore that it's linked to Christianity (Christ - Christmas).

The majority of the world, obviously considers Christmas to be directly or indirectly about Jesus Christ, or else they would have changed it by now, because the majority rules and they still say that's what it is about.

As commercialized as Christmas has become, in 2003 America, you still have a LARGE number of people, attending Christmas mass and putting up nativity scenes. This doesn't mean that these people are all brainwashed and uneducated, it simply means they were taught and/or believe differently than you or someone else. No one has the right to look down upon that. There's been countless religion related wars and everyone can't agree on what is true and what's not, this is nothing new.

Whether or not Jesus is a myth or if God exists and how the concept of Christmas started is not the point. No matter what anyone says, the word Christmas is defined as "1 : a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox on January 7 that commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday".

I do believe Jesus existed, I believe in many different things. I don't believe hell exists. I believe in evolution and life on other planets. I don't believe many things... everyone's account of events is different and distorted. No one knows the truth, however I would feel a bit hypocritical celebrating a holiday, that's supposedly linked to one religion, that I do not buy into.

And who knows... maybe the whole pagan holiday story is made up as well. There isn't enough proof, other than passed on stories through the ages, to back up either side's version. I could go publish a site with yet another version of how and why Christmas started, doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

I have a kid.

I'd feel bad trying to explain to her about Old Nick' Satan Claws.... better to just give her a nice present & slice of pumpkin pie.

No, religion was definitely fucked from the get-go. Before men had laws and courts and judges we needed some way to CONTROL our fellow tribe members. Voila... I give you God!! That is why religion, all religions, are fundamentally evil - they are all about controlling those too weak to break away.

*sigh*.. it's historical fact darling, not internet crackpots talking about JFK. Do some reading, become less ignorant and then try and make farcial claims about hypocrisy, which you never actually addressed.
I know it's kinda fun to say these things and think you are getting a rise out of people, or provoking them, but the funny thing is that it isn't engendering any malice on this side of the equation only groans as to your lack of understanding.

But then it goes back to the point that it's impossible to have a logical argument with anyone who has that much blind faith. The emphasis is very much on the word 'blind' and any counter argument will be dismissed with any facts ignored, because it disagrees with their rose tinted view of the world. And yet many religions wonder why numbers drop these days

Because the ( Christ - Christians ) named it that .

The only reason it's linked to the incorrect date of birth of the man called Jesus is so the Christians could let the Pagans they were converting, keep a Pagan holiday that was older than the birth of the man names Jesus.

Jesus is not dead... he works at Perfection Girls!

Why should I dampen everyone else's fun by not celebrating? I just look at Christmas in a different way as for celebrating what it is about.

I don't think she's incredibly religious otherwise she (he, it) wouldn't be on a porn board pushing TCG, which is hilarious, given the hypocrisy involved in someone who even partly "believes" pushing porn going on to pose a question like a five year old christian whining about the fact they have to go to church for hours but the heathens still get christmas presents without having to endure the boredom.

we learnt about that in highschool. Maybe this person didn't attend a secular highschool. Or their history courses didn't focus on the same things.

exactly

Historical "facts" through time are always distorted, especially with lack of written documents in the past. It is more than possible that it's not completely accurate. Do you believe everything you read? If one or more people say events unfolded the way they did, there's always another group of people with conflicting versions of the same story.

And yes it is fun to get a rise out of people. To answer your other question, no I am not religious but just because I am in the adult industry, means my rights to believe in God or a higher power are stripped away? And you have the nerve to call ME ignorant? You're extremely arrogant to even insinuate such things.

This thread was started based on the definition of Christmas found in Webster's Dictionary. I am not frowning upon anyone for their beliefs, as they shouldn't with mine. However, just because many people on GFY have certain beliefes/non-beliefs, doesn't mean the majority of the world will necessarily agree it's correct. As a matter of fact, it's obvious that the majority of the world, has a different explaination of Christmas. This doesn't mean that the majority of the world is either uneducated or wrong, it simply means they have a different version of events and different belief system.

Are you capable of posting anything else besides shit like this?

http://www.gofuckyourself.com/search...earchid=400522

good morning wilfully misled,

I don't believe evrything I read, but when 100% of sources say that christmas evolved from usurping a pagan festival you tend to believe it. There is no "argument" here it's not left vs right , capitalist vs communist my side your side, it's history scholars agreeing on events of which there is more than oral history of you fool. Christian sources agree with it too - saying it evolved from a pagan festival isn't denigrating it.. it's just history. I'm deeply sorry for you that this is such a hard concept for you to understand.

I never said being in the adult industry strips away your right to believe in god you nonce, I used YOUR reasoning.. So you're basically calling yourself arrogant here. Thanks for doing my arguing for me. Give me a bell next time you want to go a few rounds and i'll sit back and watch you knock yourself around some more.

You are an enormously enjoyable character, someone furious about things they don't even understand or comprehend lol.

LOL Not once did I say it wasn't true. Obviously you did not read any of my posts carefully enough. I said that it's POSSIBLE that the facts are distorted, anything is possible. I also did not say I don't believe Christmas originated from pagan celebration. I merely said, based on the definition of Christmas, by many reputable sources and people, it's meaning differs from what non-believers claim it to be.

You have made an ass of yourself several times by saying I do not understand or believe something, when I have done nothing but play the "devil's advocate". I never stated what my exact beliefs are, now did I? I pointed out what other's define things as and what others believe... but I was not specific in saying what is right and what is wrong, whose tail of events is accurate and whose is not. Carry on jumping to conclusions and assuming things about me that you haven't the slightest clue about

ha - the retarded and pointless devil's advocate? lol.
too rich, whatever way you want to extricate yourself out of your simplistic and naive statements, have at it.

Or maybe you need to refresh your vocabulary to better understand words like "if" and "maybe". Lighten up... no need to take what is said here so seriously... I certainly don't, but I'm glad I could lure you out of the depths of your self proclaimed knowledge for a bit!

Yeah same here..


BigNath

I've been pretty busy lately, so I haven't had time to read many threads, much less post to any of them, but this is one that I just have to post in.

I'll start off by saying that I do believe that anyone has the right to believe in whatever they want to, and I would never look down on someone because of what they believe in. But there is a big difference in putting someone down because of their beliefs and addressing an individual on the issues they bring into a discussion.

Of course there are a lot of defensive people in this thread. You're out-right calling them hypocrites for celebrating Christmas if they don't believe in your God. The ironic thing is that you're the one that is coming off hypocritical.

I'll start from the beginning.

"Without me being labeled a religious freak, it's pretty well known that Christmas is to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, son of God. So how many non-believers are hypocrites and celebrate this anyway?"

As it's been ATTEMPTED to be explained to you, many people come together during this time of the year for several different reasons. For some, it's just to enjoy the company and togetherness of their other family member's that they don't usually get to see. For others, they do it because it's a tradition in their family to do so or perhaps because their parents or older relatives believe in the Christian definition of that time of the year and they don't wish to disappoint them. As others have mentioned, they have children and they celebrate it because their children enjoy it. And, yet, still others are celebrating SOMETHING ELSE. The ancient meanings of the original Pagan festival, which were in place LONG before Christianity was around.

None of these things make these people hypocrites. You say "I am not frowning upon anyone for their beliefs" but what exactly are you doing by labeling people as hypocrites because they don't share YOUR belief system?

"I believe in God or a higher being."

So, which is it? Do you believe in "God" or "a higher being?" How can you call someone else a hypocrite when you aren't even sure of your own beliefs?

"Wasn't Halloween originally to scare away the "evil spirits"?"

No, it wasn't. Halloween comes from another Pagan holiday called Samhain. It's a holiday which celebrates and honors the spirits of the dead, especially the spirits of one's ancestors. It is the time of the year when the veil between the living and the dead are the thinnest.

"What are you talking about hon? I didn't state what my beliefs are any further than I believe in God AND evolution.

Webster's definition of Christmas:
Main Entry: Christ·mas
Pronunciation: 'kris-m&s
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English Christemasse, from Old English Cristes mæsse, literally, Christ's

mass
Date: before 12th century
1 : a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox on January 7 that

commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday
2 : CHRISTMASTIDE
- Christ·mas·sy or Christ·masy /-m&-sE/ adjective

I guess Webster is one of my "know it best" bullshit friends"

And he never stated what he thought any of your beliefs were. All he did was quote one of YOUR posts and comment that he thought you should do your preaching elsewhere.

Well, let me tell you, I think we're all impressed. You know how to use an internet dictionary. Congratulations. If only your quest for learning about things would stem a little further into reading up on actual parts of history.

OF COURSE that's the definition you're going to get from the dictionary. That's what the CHRISTIANS named it in order to make the transformation from the Pagan religion to Christianity easier. As has been explained to you numerous times in this thread. And while you may not believe it, it IS a historical fact. Good gods, even the History Channel has a documentary about it running on TV.

What? Because when you look up the definition of Christmas on an on-line dictionary and it doesn't mention anything about a Pagan holiday that means that it must not be a true part of history? Oh, I know, I know, you never said that you didn't believe that it happened, right? A clever way to avoid being called out? Or a cowardly one?

Since quite a few people have attempted to point out that Christmas(though it was not referred to as such) was originally celebrated as a Pagan holiday and you seem to like using your definition as proof to prove your point, if it can be called that, while completely ignoring the fact that no one is disputing that there ARE people that celebrate Christmas as "Jesus' birth" and that no one is saying that you have to believe in what Pagans celebrate to believe that they(we) DO in fact celebrate a holiday during that time of the year which WAS in place long before the Christian "Christmas," HERE is a definition for you:


Main Entry: yule
Pronunciation: 'yü(&)l
Function: noun
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: Middle English yol, from Old English geOl; akin to Old Norse jOl, a pagan

midwinter festival
Date: before 12th century
: the feast of the nativity of Jesus Christ : CHRISTMAS

"Well I believe a lot of things have been distorted over the centuries and there's many versions of events... so I am not saying the whole Jesus belief is accurate, but most people still believe Christmas is about Jesus, as Webster defines it.

Write them and tell them to do more research"

Now here you are responding that you aren't saying that "the whole Jesus belief" is accurate. Once again, how can you possibly call other people a hypocrite for celebrating Christmas when you yourself aren't sure of what you believe in? Where is the logic in that?

Some people do indeed believe that Christmas is about the birth of "Jesus," but, that doesn't erase the fact that, based on actual historical facts, the Pagan holiday was celebrated first and Christmas was set up to be celebrated at the time of the Pagan festival in order to make the transformation from Pagan to Christian easier.

"The thing is, I certainly don't buy into most of what the Bible says and even though I was raised Catholic, I do not believe in everything any organized religion stands for, much less all of Christianity."

Re-read above comments again....

"Even if Christmas originated as a pagan celebration centuries ago, since then it had become defined as a day to celebrate the birth of Christ, no matter if that was in March or December."

The same Pagan beliefs that were celebrated centuries ago are STILL being celebrated today. While, technically speaking, you might be able to say that with some generations of people their Pagan beliefs changed into the Christian beliefs, you certainly couldn't say that the entire belief system of that holiday has completely changed into the Christian one.

Well...you could....but you'd be stating misinformation.

"Only a small percentage of people think of Christmas as a day created by pagans many moons ago. You can't ignore that it's linked to Christianity (Christ - Christmas)."

You are WRONG about that. More people than you think, whether they do or do not hold the Pagan beliefs that go along with the holiday, recognize that Yule was celebrated before Christmas.

Of course Christmas is linked to Christianity, they created the holiday. Nobody ever said it wasn't linked to Chirstianity. You seem to be missing the point.

"The majority of the world, obviously considers Christmas to be directly or indirectly about Jesus Christ, or else they would have changed it by now, because the majority rules and they still say that's what it is about."

How could YOU possibly speak for a "majority of the world?" A majority which, by the way, ISN'T Christian when you look at the entire world's beliefs. (I remember seeing someone post a URL with a poll of that here recently, actually.)

CHRISTMAS is about "Jesus" because that's what it was created to be. The PAGAN holiday is not called Christmas. It's called Yule or the Winter Solstice.

Again, no one is trying to dispute the fact that Christmas and "Jesus" are linked together. They are only trying to show you that it was created after a Pagan holiday.

"No one knows the truth, however I would feel a bit hypocritical celebrating a holiday, that's supposedly linked to one religion, that I do not buy into."

Well...I think it's time for you to start feeling hypocritical.

"And who knows... maybe the whole pagan holiday story is made up as well. There isn't enough proof, other than passed on stories through the ages, to back up either side's version. I could go publish a site with yet another version of how and why Christmas started, doesn't necessarily mean it's true."

"Historical "facts" through time are always distorted, especially with lack of written documents in the past. It is more than possible that it's not completely accurate. Do you believe everything you read? If one or more people say events unfolded the way they did, there's always another group of people with conflicting versions of the same story."

Isn't enough proof? You REALLY need to study up on the subject. How about the Egyptian hyroglyphs where celebration of Horus' birth is documented to be celebrated, to name one source? Where do you think historians got their facts from? They were documented in various places.

Want some proof? I'll provide some. Now, before you go on about not believing everything you see on TV or read, note that I'm not saying you should take this as your only source of proof. By all means, and, PLEASE DO go out and do some actual research.

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibi...tmas/real.html

A piece of the above article:

"In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found Jesus in the manger.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part, replaced pagan religion."

"You're extremely arrogant to even insinuate such things."

Look who's calling who arrogant. You start a thread calling people hypocrites when you really have no basis or right to do so, then when people try to point something out to you, not asking you to believe in the Pagan beliefs, but simply trying to point out this piece of history to you, you thrust your chest forward and try to look like you know differently or better than they do. You don't.

"This thread was started based on the definition of Christmas found in Webster's Dictionary."

Might I suggest in the future you set the bar a bit higher in researching a subject matter you intend you start a topic about or perhaps start the topic with others that don't know what the definition of Christmas is or how to use an on-line dictionary.

"LOL Not once did I say it wasn't true."

No, not directly, you didn't. But you DID say: "It is more than possible that it's not completely accurate. Do you believe everything you read?" and "No one knows the truth, however I would feel a bit hypocritical celebrating a holiday, that's supposedly linked to one religion, that I do not buy into."

"Obviously you did not read any of my posts carefully enough. I said that it's POSSIBLE that the facts are distorted, anything is possible."

Yes....you did say "possible" an awful lot and you "didn't say this" and "didn't" say that....so...why don't you enlighten us all? What DO you believe? Do you believe that when Christmas was created at the time that it was in attempt to convert Pagans into Christianity more easily? Why not tell us what you believe since YOU are the one trying to judge others on their actions.

"You have made an ass of yourself several times by saying I do not understand or believe something, when I have done nothing but play the "devil's advocate"."

If you can't see how YOU are making yourself appear with posts such as these, then you REALLY need to take a step back and re-evaluate yourself before pointing a finger at someone else. I think most if not everyone here would agree that the only one making themselves look like an ass here is you.

You've done nothing but insult people, dodge the issues they try to bring into the discussion with responses such as the definition of Christmas, such as it is defined in an on-line dictionary, and similar come backs you apparently think make you seem witty and informed. They don't.

"I never stated what my exact beliefs are, now did I? I pointed out what other's define things as and what others believe... but I was not specific in saying what is right and what is wrong, whose tail of events is accurate and whose is not. Carry on jumping to conclusions and assuming things about me that you haven't the slightest clue about"

I repeat, go ahead, state your beliefs.

LOL Stating what "other's" define and believe?

"No one knows the truth, however I would feel a bit hypocritical celebrating a holiday, that's supposedly linked to one religion, that I do not buy into."

Obviously, it's your belief too. Or else YOU yourself would be exactly what you are accusing others to be. A hypocrite.

I don't usually go into such rants as these, but, really, I have to wonder where your common sense is here....

now you know I only read this to see how you edited it . . . that being said . . . . even though you did modify your statement from the original one, even if more people than what she thinks know that Yule was celebrated before Christmas, it does not change the fact that it is a small percentage of the world's population that know this fact.

Even if she knew every single person in the world that knew this fact, it would still be a smalll percentage of the world's population.

900 years ago, your comment might be accurate, but not in the 21st Centruty. You give people way too much credit.

cant be bothered reading this thread but.


christmas is a time for families to get together after a year of working and stress and have a nice relaxing time.

Christmas is so much more a paganized religious holiday than a Christian religious holiday. The look of Santa Claus today was started by Coke. Reindeer and the North Pole have nothing to do with Jesus. St. Nick is also actually a legend. Nothing to backup if this person actually existed. The "Christmas Tree" has nothing to do with Jesus. The tree was brought in for the tree worshipors. The star on top was brought in for the star worshipors.

http://www.lnstar.com/mall/main-areas/santafaq.htm

Any "Christian" that claims they are celebrating Jesus's birth, but also have Santa Caus with the reindeer, tree and everything else that has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus and more to do with paganized religion are hyprocrites. They are actually celebrating some other religion that is more than likely against the Christian faith.

Yep.. of course in the dark ages when the church was attempting to take over, it was easier for them to amalgomate the festivals of the uneducated and suspicious masses into their religion in order to create acceptance than it was to educate those masses. Therefore the traditions have been passed down, and if you ask 95% of people who believe in the sanctitiy of their holy days, they have NO idea they have pagan roots. Most would argue the opposite.

Just because it COMMEMORATES it doesn't mean that's when his birth happened. As has already been said, Jesus wasn't BORN anywhere NEAR December 25th. This is a proven historical fact. The Christmas we know today is a bastardization of a pagan holiday, no matter what it symbolizes now.

I am agnostic, but my family would give me too much shit if I bailed on Christmas (as much as I would like to) so I go along for the ride. I have a 12 year old too. I don't think it would be to kind to bring her up not celebrating Christmas. When I was a kid, I loved it.

The bible is quite a historically and scientifically accurate book, actually. It's figuring out how the hebrews references things in comparison to the rest of the world that is difficult. Archaeology has proven that many of the people/places and even many of the events in the bible actually occured. As for miracles and whatnot, well who knows. Hell, the people who wrote the bible even knew the world was round. In Psalms, David talks about god looking down on the "sphere of the earth".

Organized religion has changed and shaped and adapted things to use for their own ends. Having beliefs is not a bad thing. Christmas means Jesus's birth to a lot of people, but to many others it doesn't. Every person is going to have their own feelings about it regardless of where the roots are. It's good not to confine yourself to one mould though, so a little research and knowledge is always an interesting thing to have. Here's a little history on Yule, just because I think it is interesting to share with everyone

(It's long, but an interesting read)
Yule
or winter solstice happens near December 21, which is the longest darkest night of the year. The dark of Winter is safe like my bedcovers at night. Dark whispers of a Mother's love caress me. In the darkness of the Mother's womb, the void I am safe, sustained, at peace. and can move inward, into my own dark self, looking, learning, purifying. I can cleanse myself of all that blocks me from being born new with the rising new solstice sun when the sun king is born, with promises for the Spring ahead.

Our Christian friends are often quite surprised at how enthusiastically we Pagans celebrate the 'Christmas' season. Even though we prefer to use the word 'Yule', and our celebrations may peak a few days BEFORE the 25th, we nonetheless follow many of the traditional customs of the season: decorated trees, carolling, presents, Yule logs, and mistletoe. We might even go so far as putting up a 'Nativity set', though for us the three central characters are likely to be interpreted as Mother Nature,Father Time, and the Baby Sun-God. None of this will come as a surprise to anyone who knows the true history of the holiday, of course.

In fact, if truth be known, the holiday of Christmas has always been more Pagan than Christian, with it's associations of Nordic divination, Celtic fertility rites, and Roman Mithraism. That is why both Martin Luther and John Calvin abhorred it, why the Puritans refused to acknowledge it, much less celebrate it (to them, no day of the year could be more holy than the Sabbath), and why it was even made ILLEGAL in Boston! The holiday was already too closely associated with the birth of older Pagan gods and heroes. And many

of them (like Oedipus, Theseus, Hercules, Perseus, Jason, Dionysus, Apollo, Mithra, Horus and even Arthur) possessed a narrative of birth, death, and resurrection that was uncomfortably close to that of Jesus. And to make matters worse, many of them pre-dated the Christian Savior.

Ultimately, of course, the holiday is rooted deeply in the cycle of the year. It is the Winter Solstice that is being celebrated, seed-time of the year, the longest night and shortest day. It is the birthday of the new Sun King, the Son of God -- by whatever name you choose to call him. On this darkest of nights, the Goddess becomes the Great Mother and once again gives birth. And it makes perfect poetic sense that on the longest night of the winter, 'the dark night of our souls', there springs the new spark of hope, the Sacred Fire,the Light of the World, the Coel Coeth.

That is why Pagans have as much right to claim this holiday as Christians. Perhaps even more so, as the Christians were rather late in laying claim to it, and tried more than once to reject it. There had been a tradition in the West that Mary bore the child Jesus on the twenty-fifth day, but no one could seem to decide on the month. Finally, in 320 C.E., the Catholic Fathers in Rome decided to make it December, in an effort to co-opt the Mithraic celebration of the Romans and the Yule celebrations of the Celts and Saxons.

There was never much pretense that the date they finally chose was historically accurate. Shepherds just don't 'tend their flocks by night' in the high pastures in the dead of winter! But if one wishes to use the New Testament as historical evidence, this reference may

point to sometime in the spring as the time of Jesus's birth. This is because the lambing season occurs in the spring and that is the only time when shepherds are likely to 'watch their flocks by night' -- to make sure the lambing goes well. Knowing this, the Eastern half of the Church continued to reject December 25, preferring a 'movable date' fixed by their astrologers according to the moon.

Thus, despite its shaky start (for over three centuries, no one knew when Jesus was supposed to have been born!), December 25 finally began to catch on. By 529, it was a civic holiday, and all work or public business (except that of cooks, bakers, or any that contributed to the delight of the holiday) was prohibited by the Emperor Justinian. In 563, the Council of Braga forbade fasting on Christmas Day, and four years later the Council of Tours proclaimed the twelve days from December 25 to Epiphany as a sacred, festive season. This last point is perhaps the hardest to impress upon the modern reader, who is lucky to get a single day off work. Christmas, in the Middle Ages, was not a SINGLE day, but rather a period of TWELVE days, from December 25 to January 6. The Twelve Days of Christmas, in fact. It is certainly lamentable that the modern world has abandoned this approach, along with the popular Twelfth Night celebrations.

Of course, the Christian version of the holiday spread to many countries no faster than Christianity itself, which means that 'Christmas' wasn't celebrated in Ireland until the late fifth century; in England, Switzerland, and Austria until the seventh; in Germany until the eighth; and in the Slavic lands until the ninth and tenth. Not that these countries lacked their own mid-winter celebrations of Yuletide. Long before the world had heard of Jesus, Pagans had been observing the season by bringing in the Yule log, wishing on it, and lighting it from the remains of last year's log. Riddles were posed and answered, magic and rituals were practiced, wild boars were sacrificed and consumed along with large quantities of liquor, corn dollies were carried from house to house while carolling, fertility rites were practiced (girls standing under a sprig of mistletoe were subject to a bit more than a kiss), and divinations were cast for the coming Spring. Many of these Pagan customs, in an appropriately watered-down form, have entered the mainstream of Christian celebration, though most celebrants do not realize (or do not mention it, if they do) their origins.

Nothing says Pagans and Christians can't SHARE the season

Bump.

That is the only statement that really matters.

I never have had time for idiots feeling that the are in some way superior and need to shove their BS rhetoric down others throats, whatever their beliefs. Still, it does become almost amusing when the person in question is so proud of her own intelligence and full of herself when in reality she has very little and really does make herself look a little simple.

Oh and as always - nice posts LM

When you are right, you are right.. not slamming anyone here, but the statement above it right on the money.

Live and let live.

Amen, to that! it's christianity that is hypocritical. Just take over and put your own stamp on it. Ever been to Rome? There you see so many churches and guess what they weren't origanally, christians just put a cross on it.

What? What would happen to society if religion disappeared. So you admit that religion is just a way to keep people in line?
Let's be honest: religions also make you do things that for other people ain't the "good" thing.
I don't need a religion to know what good and wrong is. If you don't, then we now have a new system, it's called: the law.
Religion and lew had the same intent in the beginning. Religion is just an older form than the law.

And I don't think you give people enough. *smiles* I think more than a small percentage of the world's population knows that Yule and/or the Winter Solstice was celebrated before Christmas was around.

There are millions of witches in America alone. Not only would they be aware of it, but chances are they would have also told their family and friends about it if they weren't already aware of it and were open to hearing about it.

Then there is the rest of the world, many areas like Greece, England, and other such places where these festivals have been held for centuries. Surely the people that live in those areas, more than a small percent of them, are aware that those celebrations were held before Christmas.

It's heritage for a lot of them after all.

Then of course there are other ways people can learn about these things, such as the documentaries on TV and the internet.

Therefore, I think more than a small percent of the world's population knows that there were celebrations held before Christmas was around.

you are catching on

Good post Lady M.

yeah, the ones that actual read a book in high school...I learned about the pagan connection to the dates in school. I thought everyone did.


By your on logic you say that meanings change. Well, then therefore on your own logic it is possible for the meaning of Christmas to have changed and moved away from the boy child connection. I bet I could find more people that don't go to church on Christmas Eve than do - even in what are suppose to be Christian countries.

I went to Stonehenge for the summer solstice - trust me there are MANY people that know all too well what is pagan and what isn't. Plus the druids are better and throwing a party.