The New Abortion Law - WTF?????

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  • steffie
    Confirmed User
    • May 2002
    • 2422

    #1

    The New Abortion Law - WTF?????

    2 days ago President Bush signed into bill the new reformed Abortion law. For those who say "Who cares" should read on.

    If you plan on having a baby in the future you better hope its healthy, you better pray that your wife is not at risk giving birth, because you will have NO choice, your wife will have to die in order to give birth. We just stepped back 200 years

    I am so sick of that guy

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Bush Signs Anti-Abortion Bill, to Fight in Court


    But within minutes of the signing ceremony, a federal judge in Nebraska issued a temporary restraining order barring U.S. Attorney John Ashhahahahaha and the Justice Department from enforcing the new law against four doctors who practice in more than a dozen states.

    Abortion rights groups have also asked courts in California and New York to block and ultimately overturn the law.

    Bush cast the ban in stark terms: as the government coming to the defense of the "innocent child" against "a terrible form of violence."

    "Today, at last, the American people and our government have confronted the violence," Bush said.



    Abortion rights groups countered the ban would sacrifice women's health and rights for Bush's political gain, and promised a court fight that could drag on for months if not years.

    Bush vowed his administration would "vigorously defend this law against any who would try to challenge it in the courts."

    He took the unusual step of signing the ban into law at a building named after Ronald Reagan, the former Republican president who opposed abortion, instead of at the White House.

    Outside, dozens of protesters denounced him with signs that read: "Keep abortion legal" and "We trust our doctors more than we trust Bush." The American Civil Liberties Union called it "a deceptive and dangerous" measure.

    In a statement, Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean, a doctor, called it a "dark day for American women" and warned the ban would "chill the practice of medicine and endanger the health of countless women."

    White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the ban was a "practical" step to reduce U.S. abortions and Bush would support additional efforts to end abortions, including measures to promote adoption and sexual abstinence

    If it withstands the legal challenges, the "partial birth" abortion ban would constitute the first federal limit on a type of abortion since the 1973 Roe versus Wade Supreme Court ruling backing abortion rights.
    But Bush said last week that the United States was not ready for a total abortion ban.

    Critics say the measure will ban many abortion techniques, not one particular procedure, and that it is effectively no different from a Nebraska law invalidated by the U.S. Supreme Court three years ago.

    That was what the ACLU was arguing on Wednesday in federal court in New York, trying to block enforcement of the law before it is scheduled to take effect at 12:01 a.m. on Nov. 6.

    Sponsors of the ban said they took prior court objections into account and believed it would be upheld.

    The U.S. Congress has held emotional debates on the partial birth abortion for years, and former President Bill Clinton twice vetoed similar legislation because it did not contain an exception to protect the health of a woman.

    In drafting the law, the U.S. Congress determined such an exception was not necessary for health reasons, but did include a more narrow one to save a woman's life.

    Under the bill, a doctor could face up to two years in prison as well as civil lawsuits for performing a "partial birth" abortion, defined as intentionally killing a fetus that has been partially delivered.

    In addition to the New York and Nebraska challenges, the reproductive rights group Planned Parenthood filed a lawsuit in San Francisco against the ban.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Is America that narrow minded... ??? You guys can't see beyond your church group???

    WTF??

    I have daughters... and Daughter In laws.. I want to be a Grandma at one point but I rather not sacrifice my daughters just to have a grand daughter.

    That is utter bullshit.. I hate that Guy... Don't you people read about your presidents when you all vote for them.??

    America the moral prude bullshit people.... I am getting fed up with the church going motherfucking rigious people who in the night will fuck their wife up the ass but during the day will pray for forgivness.

    God help us all
    Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm
  • LadyMischief
    Orgasms N Such!
    • Sep 2002
    • 18135

    #2
    Come to Canada, steffie. We're not all Bush zombies, up here

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    • rooster
      Confirmed User
      • Jan 2003
      • 2384

      #3
      ever read the term 'partial birth abortion'.


      dont worry, you can still kill your kids
      Last edited by rooster; 11-07-2003, 06:27 AM.
      Ever notice that pretty much everything added to the Constitution after the original was a mistake.

      Comment

      • who
        So Fucking Banned
        • Aug 2003
        • 19593

        #4
        I"m already planning an assasination. Not of bush but of his cronies. Bush is just a puppet..

        So.. The planning is going well so far..

        Comment

        • C_U_Next_Tuesday
          WW4L
          • Oct 2002
          • 10581

          #5
          steffie, you know whomever the people vote in is going to be a bad choice.. all politicians are just fucking evil....The people have no say of what really happens.. its all a game.. why i dont vote.. i dont want to play by their rules..
          karma will bite him in his ass... dont forget the bush daughters.. the drunken sluts that will have so many crack babies littering the white house if this new law would include them (haha).

          The day we stop abortion in the states is the day we start having more child killing (baby in the dumpster syndrome)...people going to back alley doctors .....children being abandoned... tons of teenage pregnant mothers...is the governement ready for the increase for the need of welfare and welfare related programs...NOT.

          This new law will not last if so many states see the bad side and want to overturn it..

          bush is whacked

          Comment

          • steffie
            Confirmed User
            • May 2002
            • 2422

            #6
            Originally posted by rooster
            ever heard the term 'partial birth abortion'.


            dont worry, you can still kill your kids
            You fuck head, do you know what partial abortion is??

            You retarted fucking little boy..

            But hey I spell it out for you boy.

            Lets assume your wife is pregnant
            Lets now assume you all want this child

            Now she is 6 month pregnant and the doctor tells you. Dear Asshole Rooster your babies brain is leaking into your wife's body and if we do not abort that baby your wife will die due to water poisening.

            What will you do??

            Oh wait -- You will have your wife die!!!!!!!!!! retard

            The baby has a 50/50 shot on surviving. So now how do you abort this baby??

            Unfortunatly your wife has to go thru the trauma off delivering that baby, once the baby is partially out of her body they will than have to terminate it (in most cases however they will fully deliver it but since the baby cannot live at that point why inflict pain?)

            I have been thru it with my neighbor Traci. So fuck off little boy.. Leave it up to the father and mother of that child to decide who they rather keep around

            The mother or the baby

            Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

            Comment

            • KingK7
              Confirmed User
              • Jun 2002
              • 6372

              #7
              Jeez...
              Well, I guess they voted for that fucker.
              You've made your bed, now lie in it.

              Whats more amazing is that some people in THIS business actually voted for him.

              Comment

              • LadyMischief
                Orgasms N Such!
                • Sep 2002
                • 18135

                #8
                Originally posted by KingK7
                Jeez...
                Well, I guess they voted for that fucker.
                You've made your bed, now lie in it.

                Whats more amazing is that some people in THIS business actually voted for him.
                And STILL SUPPORT him.

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                • C_U_Next_Tuesday
                  WW4L
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 10581

                  #9
                  Originally posted by rooster
                  ever read the term 'partial birth abortion'.


                  dont worry, you can still kill your kids
                  rooster.. there are limits and i see this as being one of them..

                  I thought their was a law against preforming abortions after 11 weeks..but i am sure it applies differently state to state...

                  Maybe if more men would take repsonsibility of childrearing instead of just being sperm donors, then we wouldnt have this problem in our society..

                  Comment

                  • steffie
                    Confirmed User
                    • May 2002
                    • 2422

                    #10
                    Originally posted by LadyMischief
                    Come to Canada, steffie. We're not all Bush zombies, up here
                    My son wants a baby but his wife family has a bad history of babies with flux brain syndrom.. I might send them up there just in case there is a problem. I prefer keeping my daughter in law around ...
                    Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                    Comment

                    • steffie
                      Confirmed User
                      • May 2002
                      • 2422

                      #11
                      Originally posted by C_U_Next_Tuesday


                      rooster.. there are limits and i see this as being one of them..

                      I thought their was a law against preforming abortions after 11 weeks..but i am sure it applies differently state to state...

                      Maybe if more men would take repsonsibility of childrearing instead of just being sperm donors, then we wouldnt have this problem in our society..
                      Thats not really the problem in this law. Yes you cannot abort after 11-13 weeks..

                      However if there is a problem with the life of the mother or the unborn child you used to be able to have a safe abortion in a hospital to preserve the life of the mother.

                      The new law has closed that door.

                      Now if there is a problem and the mothers life is at risk, she still has to carry the baby to term.

                      All you Pro Life guys out there, I hope youre not too attached to your wife.. Because if you have to make a choice between your wife and your unborn child..--------

                      OH WAIT-

                      You NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE
                      Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                      Comment

                      • BigFish
                        Confirmed User
                        • Jan 2003
                        • 1159

                        #12
                        Originally posted by steffie


                        You fuck head, do you know what partial abortion is??

                        You retarted fucking little boy..

                        But hey I spell it out for you boy.

                        Lets assume your wife is pregnant
                        Lets now assume you all want this child

                        Now she is 6 month pregnant and the doctor tells you. Dear Asshole Rooster your babies brain is leaking into your wife's body and if we do not abort that baby your wife will die due to water poisening.

                        What will you do??

                        Oh wait -- You will have your wife die!!!!!!!!!! retard

                        The baby has a 50/50 shot on surviving. So now how do you abort this baby??

                        Unfortunatly your wife has to go thru the trauma off delivering that baby, once the baby is partially out of her body they will than have to terminate it (in most cases however they will fully deliver it but since the baby cannot live at that point why inflict pain?)

                        I have been thru it with my neighbor Traci. So fuck off little boy.. Leave it up to the father and mother of that child to decide who they rather keep around

                        The mother or the baby

                        calm your ass down hoe. there's two sides of the issue and everybody has their opinion, especially on this issue.

                        Comment

                        • FATPad
                          Confirmed User
                          • Oct 2001
                          • 6693

                          #13
                          Originally posted by C_U_Next_Tuesday


                          rooster.. there are limits and i see this as being one of them..

                          I thought their was a law against preforming abortions after 11 weeks..but i am sure it applies differently state to state...

                          Maybe if more men would take repsonsibility of childrearing instead of just being sperm donors, then we wouldnt have this problem in our society..
                          What do guys not helping to raise their kids have to do with pregnant women having health problems not being able to abort the pregnancy?
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                          • genomega
                            Confirmed User
                            • Feb 2002
                            • 1190

                            #14
                            Amazing how this whole thread is based on lies and propaganda.

                            Well there was one poster that had a clue.


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                            • woodman
                              Confirmed User
                              • Jan 2003
                              • 433

                              #15
                              no problem if the mother's life is at stake but your fooling yourself if that is the only reason this is done. And before you call me a right-wing, religious, bush-lovin, white, conservative prick read the following:

                              "When you're a doctor who does these abortions and the leaders of your movement appear before Congress and go on network news and say these procedures are done in only the most tragic of circumstances, how do you think that makes you feel? You know they're primarily done on healthy women and healthy fetuses, and it makes you feel like a dirty little abortionist with a dirty little secret. I think we should tell them the truth, let them vote and move on. In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else."

                              --Ron Fitzsimmons, Executive Director for the National Coalition of Abortion Providers The New York Times, February 26, 1997

                              Comment

                              • C_U_Next_Tuesday
                                WW4L
                                • Oct 2002
                                • 10581

                                #16
                                Originally posted by FATPad
                                What do guys not helping to raise their kids have to do with pregnant women having health problems not being able to abort the pregnancy?
                                So what i just read is the only abortions that arent legal anymore are the "partial abortions"?

                                So sorry, I thought it was ruling on all abortion procedures...I was not fully aware of what the "partial abortion" was all about..i quit having babies years ago and really haven kept up on the subject.

                                Comment

                                • LadyMischief
                                  Orgasms N Such!
                                  • Sep 2002
                                  • 18135

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by steffie


                                  My son wants a baby but his wife family has a bad history of babies with flux brain syndrom.. I might send them up there just in case there is a problem. I prefer keeping my daughter in law around ...
                                  That's awful I had a friend with the same problem. My best wishes to your son and his wife.

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                                  • LadyMischief
                                    Orgasms N Such!
                                    • Sep 2002
                                    • 18135

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by woodman
                                    no problem if the mother's life is at stake but your fooling yourself if that is the only reason this is done. And before you call me a right-wing, religious, bush-lovin, white, conservative prick read the following:

                                    "When you're a doctor who does these abortions and the leaders of your movement appear before Congress and go on network news and say these procedures are done in only the most tragic of circumstances, how do you think that makes you feel? You know they're primarily done on healthy women and healthy fetuses, and it makes you feel like a dirty little abortionist with a dirty little secret. I think we should tell them the truth, let them vote and move on. In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along. The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else."

                                    --Ron Fitzsimmons, Executive Director for the National Coalition of Abortion Providers The New York Times, February 26, 1997
                                    So apparently women who TRULY have the need are going to pay for the choices of others with their very lives. Sounds fair.

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                                    • steffie
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • May 2002
                                      • 2422

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by LadyMischief


                                      So apparently women who TRULY have the need are going to pay for the choices of others with their very lives. Sounds fair.
                                      Look, if they want to put an addendum on it like

                                      You cannot abort after 13 weeks UNLESS the mothers or babies life is at risk than fine

                                      But why punish women who truly do have problems, whose babies do have problems (like leakage of the brain ) ..

                                      Also the statement Bush made that America is not ready YET to ban abortion totally was not necessary.

                                      Doesn't Bush have daughters??

                                      That should make his daughters feel great knowing that they dad has choosen the future grandchild over their own lifes.

                                      You go Dad!!!

                                      Somehow I cannot see Bush saying to his daughter in that position. Sorry hunny you just have to die because remember that bill I signed in 2003? Tought Shit hunny.

                                      I have a feeling that conversation be something like that. Listen hunny don't worry, I know this doctor who for a few thousand will take care of it and you will live and try again

                                      But that of course I could be wrong
                                      WAIT
                                      I am wrong, because he DID make it a Law...
                                      Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                      Comment

                                      • stocktrader23
                                        Let's do some business.
                                        • Jan 2003
                                        • 18781

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by steffie


                                        My son wants a baby but his wife family has a bad history of babies with flux brain syndrom.. I might send them up there just in case there is a problem. I prefer keeping my daughter in law around ...
                                        You know I read your other post and I was thinking you had somewhat of a point.

                                        Then I read this drivel and once again I think you're a selfish, retarded, bitch.

                                        So your daughter-in-law's family has a BAD history of babies with flux brain syndrome, so instead of them being responsible adults and not getting pregnant you think it would be just fine to send them to Canada so they can keep killing babies until they get one they want. Idiot.


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                                        • digi
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Feb 2002
                                          • 1314

                                          #21
                                          wow, amazing how a guy who dont have a problem executing prisoners and starting wars have such a big problem with abortion.

                                          Comment

                                          • Carrie
                                            Confirmed User
                                            • Apr 2002
                                            • 3162

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by steffie


                                            You fuck head, do you know what partial abortion is??

                                            You retarted fucking little boy..

                                            But hey I spell it out for you boy.

                                            Lets assume your wife is pregnant
                                            Lets now assume you all want this child

                                            Now she is 6 month pregnant
                                            At 6 months the woman is in her end of the second trimester or at the very *beginning* of her third trimester (it would really depend on the day). This is not a partial birth abortion.

                                            Partial birth abortions are LATE third trimester babies who are within days of being born - or even minutes of being born - and they *can* live on their own outside of the womb and they *can* be born naturally.

                                            As a matter of fact, part of the procedure involved having the baby BEING born, it moves down the vaginal canal and its head crowns the woman's perineum just as in a normal, vaginal birth.

                                            Only in a normal, vaginal birth, the woman would give one more short push and the entire head would be out. The doctors would be cleaning the gook out of the baby's nose and throat and would be cutting the cord if it were wrapped around the baby's neck.

                                            In a partial birth abortion, the head is left there in the crowning position. A pair of scissors are stabbed into the back of the baby's soft skull. A tube is inserted into the baby's skull and the brains are sucked out.
                                            Two more minutes and that baby would be alive and going through its APGAR tests, but that baby has been killed moments before fully leaving the woman's body.

                                            There is NO REASON why partial birth abortions should be done. They are at the very end of a successful pregnancy AND a partially successful vaginal birth.

                                            If, at that point, mere moments before birth, the woman should decide she doesn't want the baby, then she should give a couple more pushes and sign the baby away to be adopted rather than giving permission to shove a pair of scissors into its head.

                                            Comment

                                            • Yo Adrian
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Apr 2002
                                              • 6326

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by KingK7
                                              Jeez...
                                              Well, I guess they voted for that fucker.
                                              You've made your bed, now lie in it.

                                              Whats more amazing is that some people in THIS business actually voted for him.
                                              Actually the majority voted for Gore... but I also CAN'T believe that people in this industry voted for, or support, him.
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                                              • steffie
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • May 2002
                                                • 2422

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by stocktrader23


                                                You know I read your other post and I was thinking you had somewhat of a point.

                                                Then I read this drivel and once again I think you're a selfish, retarded, bitch.

                                                So your daughter-in-law's family has a BAD history of babies with flux brain syndrome, so instead of them being responsible adults and not getting pregnant you think it would be just fine to send them to Canada so they can keep killing babies until they get one they want. Idiot.
                                                So you are saying that if somebody has a history of sickness in their family and might have a bad pregnancy they shouldn't have the baby?

                                                Uhm, ok than. I will let my niece know because my sister had a horrible pregnancy and they found out in the 8th month that she might not make it. They CHOOSE to have Selina, even tho Selina is a bit slow now and thank god my sis is alive. She CHOOSE to have a baby.

                                                Make sure you have a full medical history done on the future mother of your children k?
                                                Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                                Comment

                                                • jas1552
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • May 2002
                                                  • 1462

                                                  #25
                                                  I'm asking because I don't know. Is partial birth abortion the ONLY abortion procedure that can be done late term? Certainly there's got to be a more humane way to kill a baby with that brain leakage problem or some other such problems.

                                                  Here's a nurses account of witnessing her first partial birth abortion.

                                                  In September, 1993, Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse with thirteen years or experience, was assigned by her nursing agency to an abortion clinic. Since Nurse Shafer considered herself "very pro-choice," she didn?t think this assignment would be a problem. She was wrong. This is what Nurse Shafer saw:

                                                  " I stood at the doctor?s side and watched him perform a partial-birth abortion on a woman who was six months pregnant. The baby?s heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen. The doctor delivered the baby?s body and arms, everything but his little head. The baby?s body was moving. His little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking his feet. The doctor took a pair of scissors and inserted them into the back of the baby?s head, and the baby?s arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall. Then the doctor opened the scissors up. Then he stuck the high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby?s brains out. Now the baby was completely limp. I never went back to the clinic. But I am still haunted by the face of that little boy. It was the most perfect, angelic face I have ever seen."

                                                  I don't see how any decent human being could defend something like this.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • steffie
                                                    Confirmed User
                                                    • May 2002
                                                    • 2422

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Carrie

                                                    At 6 months the woman is in her end of the second trimester or at the very *beginning* of her third trimester (it would really depend on the day). This is not a partial birth abortion.

                                                    Partial birth abortions are LATE third trimester babies who are within days of being born - or even minutes of being born - and they *can* live on their own outside of the womb and they *can* be born naturally.

                                                    As a matter of fact, part of the procedure involved having the baby BEING born, it moves down the vaginal canal and its head crowns the woman's perineum just as in a normal, vaginal birth.

                                                    Only in a normal, vaginal birth, the woman would give one more short push and the entire head would be out. The doctors would be cleaning the gook out of the baby's nose and throat and would be cutting the cord if it were wrapped around the baby's neck.

                                                    In a partial birth abortion, the head is left there in the crowning position. A pair of scissors are stabbed into the back of the baby's soft skull. A tube is inserted into the baby's skull and the brains are sucked out.
                                                    Two more minutes and that baby would be alive and going through its APGAR tests, but that baby has been killed moments before fully leaving the woman's body.

                                                    There is NO REASON why partial birth abortions should be done. They are at the very end of a successful pregnancy AND a partially successful vaginal birth.

                                                    If, at that point, mere moments before birth, the woman should decide she doesn't want the baby, then she should give a couple more pushes and sign the baby away to be adopted rather than giving permission to shove a pair of scissors into its head.
                                                    Your are true on how partial abortion is done. However not necessary the way you descripe it.

                                                    After certain weeks you have to give "birth" in order to abort. There are many reasons why the family chooses the mothers life over the childs. There are many reasons why a family chooses to abort (most medical issues on the baby are not found until the 5th month)

                                                    I do agree that women who abort for no other reason than birth control after the 13 th week are selfish.

                                                    But don't you agree that to make everybody happy all he has to do is ad an addendum?

                                                    Like -- If the health of the mother is in danger than it is permitted. ??

                                                    That new law does not give this addendum. I am not "God" I cannot and will not make a decision which will affect the life of YOU.

                                                    All I am asking is simple.

                                                    IF THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS IN DANGER THAN WE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO ABORT THE CHILD

                                                    That's it. Nothing more, nothing less and it would make everybody happy.

                                                    But don't tell me to choose the unborn child over my wife/daughter mother just because you think its wrong.
                                                    Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                                    Comment

                                                    • MattO
                                                      The O is for Oohhh
                                                      • Feb 2003
                                                      • 10861

                                                      #27
                                                      Technically, if there is a problem with the baby, and it's endangering the mother's life, couldn't you try to deliver it via cesaerian and go from there?

                                                      My wife's 7 months pregnant right now, by the way.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Gemini
                                                        Confirmed User
                                                        • Jan 2001
                                                        • 7183

                                                        #28
                                                        They aren't fooling anyone... politicians (and other rich peoples) daughters would just be shipped out of the country to have it done just like they did when it was illegal. It amazes me that those idiots can stand there when talking that BS and keep a straight face.
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                                                        • Carrie
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • Apr 2002
                                                          • 3162

                                                          #29


                                                          It takes on a different meaning when you can actually see what it is you're discussing. Most people have never seen abortion diagrams and to them, it's nothing more than getting rid of a headache by taking a pill.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • jas1552
                                                            Confirmed User
                                                            • May 2002
                                                            • 1462

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by MattO
                                                            Technically, if there is a problem with the baby, and it's endangering the mother's life, couldn't you try to deliver it via cesaerian and go from there?

                                                            My wife's 7 months pregnant right now, by the way.
                                                            Exactly. In fact I think all abortion should be illegal because I don't think doctors should be in the business of stabbing babies to death. I do however understand the "it's my body" argument. No matter what trimester, either induce labor or perform a cesarean to end the pregnancy. If it lives it lives, if it dies it dies. Ya see that way the mothers "rights" are protected and nobody has to murder a baby.
                                                            Last edited by jas1552; 11-07-2003, 08:29 AM.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • steffie
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • May 2002
                                                              • 2422

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by MattO
                                                              Technically, if there is a problem with the baby, and it's endangering the mother's life, couldn't you try to deliver it via cesaerian and go from there?

                                                              My wife's 7 months pregnant right now, by the way.
                                                              You could deliver it with a Cesaerian, however the Insurance company does not pay for it and they might be complications.

                                                              Also since it is a surgical procedure she has to be in the hospital for a few days (2).

                                                              If a woman has complications most of the time its because her water has become poisen due to brain leakage or shock and a surgical procedure would only making it worse.

                                                              So its a tough decision. I wouldn't want to make it.

                                                              Money does play a facture in this, has to be. You are correct with the c-section. However maybe the woman could decide that.

                                                              My guess would be it is easier for a women to give "birth" and pay the 1 or 2k than pay 15k for a c-section, her having a scar and maybe there are more problems.

                                                              It's great youre having a baby. Only 2 more month!!! The worse month really ;-(( She will be sleeping in a rocker he he..

                                                              I hope the baby is healthy and the mother is healthy than youre already 2 steps ahead of the new law.

                                                              hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha

                                                              Look, I personally also think its terrible to have a partial birth. However I won't and cannot choose for MattO if danger for his wife should come up.

                                                              If they would be a more human way for partial birth abortion I would opt for it. However again lets not jump the gun.

                                                              All Bush has to do is say its ok to do it if the mother is in danger. The baby can be healthy in the 7th month and for no reason there could be brain hemoridge and fluid could leak into her water and poisen it. She would only have about 48 hours to abort before she would die. By that time there are also problems with the baby.

                                                              I think its terrible if women choose abortion as birth control and I think its terrible for women to have partial abortion when both the mother and child are healthy. But god damn, don't close the door for women who DO need it for health reasons.

                                                              That's all I am saying..
                                                              Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Carrie
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Apr 2002
                                                                • 3162

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by steffie
                                                                But don't you agree that to make everybody happy all he has to do is ad an addendum?

                                                                Like -- If the health of the mother is in danger than it is permitted. ??
                                                                Steffie, the folks who wrote this law aren't so naive to think that no one would exploit that very addendum to perform abortions on healthy babies.
                                                                Doctors can be counted on to fudge excuses all the time and use loopholes like this one to get the treatment that their patient wants.

                                                                Here's an example - my mother wanted to stop smoking at one point. The insurance didn't cover a certain stop-smoking medication if it was prescribed for that purpose. But they *did* approve that same medication if it were being used as an anti-depressant or anti-stress medication.
                                                                My mother was not stressed or depressed, she just wanted to stop smoking.
                                                                The doctor put stress down on the paper as the reason for prescribing the medicine, and said that if she were ever challenged on that, she'd say that trying to quit smoking with a cold-turkey method had been causing severe stress to my mother and she needed the medication.

                                                                The same thing happens with these loopholes for PBA. One story on our radio here recently involved a woman whose boyfriend left her two weeks before the baby was to be born. The woman no longer wanted her baby. The doctor's *medical* reason for aborting the baby? Depression. The mother was depressed and that was an endangerment to her health from that depression.

                                                                If you make a loophole, people will exploit it. I anticipate that an addendum like you want *will* be worked into the bill, but they need to find a way to avoid the loophole excuses given by doctors of healthy women and healthy babies first.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • stocktrader23
                                                                  Let's do some business.
                                                                  • Jan 2003
                                                                  • 18781

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by steffie


                                                                  So you are saying that if somebody has a history of sickness in their family and might have a bad pregnancy they shouldn't have the baby?

                                                                  Uhm, ok than. I will let my niece know because my sister had a horrible pregnancy and they found out in the 8th month that she might not make it. They CHOOSE to have Selina, even tho Selina is a bit slow now and thank god my sis is alive. She CHOOSE to have a baby.

                                                                  Make sure you have a full medical history done on the future mother of your children k?
                                                                  Sounds like your niece is being an ADULT and handling responsibility. Did you try to ship her to Canada to have her "slow" child aborted too?

                                                                  If you know there is a GOOD chance of problems when you get pregnant and you aren't ready to handle those problems, don't get fucking pregnant.


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                                                                  • jennym
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • May 2003
                                                                    • 1622

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by stocktrader23

                                                                    If you know there is a GOOD chance of problems when you get pregnant and you aren't ready to handle those problems, don't get fucking pregnant.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • steffie
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • May 2002
                                                                      • 2422

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by stocktrader23


                                                                      Sounds like your niece is being an ADULT and handling responsibility. Did you try to ship her to Canada to have her "slow" child aborted too?

                                                                      If you know there is a GOOD chance of problems when you get pregnant and you aren't ready to handle those problems, don't get fucking pregnant.
                                                                      I fully agree with you here. If you know there is a problem in your family with having babies or Preeclampsia or whatever else you shouldn't get pregnant.

                                                                      However I cannot make that decision for a husband and wife who want that child or children. Some might not even know. Hell I didn't know we had problems with Preeclampsia and SPINA BIFIDA in our family when I had my kid. Because I was 17 in love and pregnant.

                                                                      I didn't consult anybody about my families medical history ...

                                                                      My sisters first child (it passed in 1993) had Spina Bifida and she had a c-section. They have been trying for children for 10 years. They constantly checked her fluids etc etc and she was in the hospital for 4 month. The baby didn't make it.

                                                                      However we didn't know we had that problem. I had healthy children, none have any problems but my sis went thru hell and back with eyes wide open.

                                                                      How many teens check their medical history when having sex? I don't say its right however it can happen. Shit happends. It's bad, but it does happen.

                                                                      At least leave an option where the family can choose life or death. It's a family matter not a government matter who lives or dies.

                                                                      Yes if both are healthy it should not be allowed, but again. I am NOT in their shoes, I cannot make that decision. I WILL NOT pay for children who are not wanted and I WILL NOT raise them, feed and clothes them and give them shelter. Ulitmatly the parents and the state will (welfare)

                                                                      Its not right -- But let them choose -- In most cases they are adults and will do whats right for them -- NOT YOU..
                                                                      Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • steffie
                                                                        Confirmed User
                                                                        • May 2002
                                                                        • 2422

                                                                        #36
                                                                        There I have an idea

                                                                        Every Pro Lifer should have taking a mandatory 13% out of their paycheck each month, that money would go to families who choose not to abort to help raise the child

                                                                        Problem solved

                                                                        So woman who are in financial need, may it be for medical reasons (no insurance and child has SPINA BIFIDA is about 200.000,-- $$ thats the low end) or for family reasons. For whatever reason she is keeping that baby and choose not to abort it, she would receive

                                                                        lets say 2k per month from Pro Lifers

                                                                        Problem solved

                                                                        AH I am soooooooooo good

                                                                        he he
                                                                        and we would save money on our taxes because we would be paying less on welfare

                                                                        tataaaaa
                                                                        Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • KRL
                                                                          Entrepreneur
                                                                          • Oct 2002
                                                                          • 31429

                                                                          #37
                                                                          2 Federal Judges already overturned it so right now it will be tied up in the courts and probably tossed.

                                                                          They do this bullshit like this and the porn laws they know will never stand up to constitutional muster just to appease the ultra right wing conservatives.

                                                                          I am solidly against abortion.
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                                                                          • steffie
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • May 2002
                                                                            • 2422

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by KRL
                                                                            2 Federal Judges already overturned it so right now it will be tied up in the courts and probably tossed.

                                                                            They do this bullshit like this and the porn laws they know will never stand up to constitutional muster just to appease the ultra right wing conservatives.

                                                                            I am solidly against abortion.
                                                                            KRL, you know I love you, I personally am also against abortion, never had one, and always choose to keep my babies.

                                                                            But I won't tell anybody what to do with their lives.

                                                                            I won't tell you what to believe, read, what to pierce on your body, get tattoos, watch porn, have anal sex, have gay thoughts or have an abortion.

                                                                            We are all adults, we need to choose what to do with our lives. We have to live with it.

                                                                            If I choose to have a tattoo I have to live with it
                                                                            If I choose to have an abortion I have to live with it
                                                                            If I choose to pay a 19 year old to do a Anal Gangbang and ruin the rest of her life, I have to live with it

                                                                            I Choose - I am an adult - I won't have the government tell me how to live my life.

                                                                            Period!

                                                                            It might not be right, but at least I have the right to Choose
                                                                            Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • LadyMischief
                                                                              Orgasms N Such!
                                                                              • Sep 2002
                                                                              • 18135

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by jas1552

                                                                              Exactly. In fact I think all abortion should be illegal because I don't think doctors should be in the business of stabbing babies to death. I do however understand the "it's my body" argument. No matter what trimester, either induce labor or perform a cesarean to end the pregnancy. If it lives it lives, if it dies it dies. Ya see that way the mothers "rights" are protected and nobody has to murder a baby.
                                                                              So women with etopic pregnancies who are guarenteed death and the death of the baby should just die and be done with it. Sounds good.

                                                                              Partial birth abortion is an awful practice, and in 99% of cases abortion is NEVER neccessary.. but what if YOUR wife was the 1%. Could you look her in the face and say "Honey, I'm going to let you AND the baby die"? I have two children.. Both were extremely difficult deliveries that almost killed me. I'm pregnant again with my third and my doctor is afraid to even do some examinations for fear that I will start to bleed and they will have to deliver the baby... I'm 5 months along.

                                                                              He's scared because my baby is now viable, which means it could live in an incubator. Do you know what happens to babies that age who are raised in incubators? They are usually VERY sickly, often retarded, and most of them die very young, if they survive at all. It's easy to say caserians are the answer, but they aren't always. I have to have one, and I'm scared shitless, just like I was the first two times.. Why? I'm a hemopheliac. Fortunately I have an excellent obstetrician, because if I didn't, they would be telling me to abort, right now.

                                                                              The whole thing is awful.. Any situation where any kind of proceedure is neccessarily discussed is a bad situation. But put the shoe on the other foot. I don't always agree with the whole abortion issue. I feel it should be taken on a situational basis. But I don't understand how anyone could possibly condemn anyone for doing what they felt had to be done.

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                                                                              • TaraD
                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                • Nov 2003
                                                                                • 171

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by rooster
                                                                                ever read the term 'partial birth abortion'.


                                                                                dont worry, you can still kill your kids

                                                                                If they should ban anything they should ban this. Read about what they do to a baby during a partial birth abortion it is sick sick sick. I don't have a problem with women who are raped but i do have a problem with women who use it for a form of birth control.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • PiksalDesign
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                                                  • 1632

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by steffie
                                                                                  2 days ago President Bush signed into bill the new reformed Abortion law. For those who say "Who cares" should read on.

                                                                                  If you plan on having a baby in the future you better hope its healthy, you better pray that your wife is not at risk giving birth, because you will have NO choice, your wife will have to die in order to give birth. We just stepped back 200 years

                                                                                  I am so sick of that guy

                                                                                  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                                                                  Bush Signs Anti-Abortion Bill, to Fight in Court


                                                                                  But within minutes of the signing ceremony, a federal judge in Nebraska issued a temporary restraining order barring U.S. Attorney John Ashhahahahaha and the Justice Department from enforcing the new law against four doctors who practice in more than a dozen states.

                                                                                  Abortion rights groups have also asked courts in California and New York to block and ultimately overturn the law.

                                                                                  Bush cast the ban in stark terms: as the government coming to the defense of the "innocent child" against "a terrible form of violence."

                                                                                  "Today, at last, the American people and our government have confronted the violence," Bush said.



                                                                                  Abortion rights groups countered the ban would sacrifice women's health and rights for Bush's political gain, and promised a court fight that could drag on for months if not years.

                                                                                  Bush vowed his administration would "vigorously defend this law against any who would try to challenge it in the courts."

                                                                                  He took the unusual step of signing the ban into law at a building named after Ronald Reagan, the former Republican president who opposed abortion, instead of at the White House.

                                                                                  Outside, dozens of protesters denounced him with signs that read: "Keep abortion legal" and "We trust our doctors more than we trust Bush." The American Civil Liberties Union called it "a deceptive and dangerous" measure.

                                                                                  In a statement, Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean, a doctor, called it a "dark day for American women" and warned the ban would "chill the practice of medicine and endanger the health of countless women."

                                                                                  White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the ban was a "practical" step to reduce U.S. abortions and Bush would support additional efforts to end abortions, including measures to promote adoption and sexual abstinence

                                                                                  If it withstands the legal challenges, the "partial birth" abortion ban would constitute the first federal limit on a type of abortion since the 1973 Roe versus Wade Supreme Court ruling backing abortion rights.
                                                                                  But Bush said last week that the United States was not ready for a total abortion ban.

                                                                                  Critics say the measure will ban many abortion techniques, not one particular procedure, and that it is effectively no different from a Nebraska law invalidated by the U.S. Supreme Court three years ago.

                                                                                  That was what the ACLU was arguing on Wednesday in federal court in New York, trying to block enforcement of the law before it is scheduled to take effect at 12:01 a.m. on Nov. 6.

                                                                                  Sponsors of the ban said they took prior court objections into account and believed it would be upheld.

                                                                                  The U.S. Congress has held emotional debates on the partial birth abortion for years, and former President Bill Clinton twice vetoed similar legislation because it did not contain an exception to protect the health of a woman.

                                                                                  In drafting the law, the U.S. Congress determined such an exception was not necessary for health reasons, but did include a more narrow one to save a woman's life.

                                                                                  Under the bill, a doctor could face up to two years in prison as well as civil lawsuits for performing a "partial birth" abortion, defined as intentionally killing a fetus that has been partially delivered.

                                                                                  In addition to the New York and Nebraska challenges, the reproductive rights group Planned Parenthood filed a lawsuit in San Francisco against the ban.

                                                                                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                                                                  Is America that narrow minded... ??? You guys can't see beyond your church group???

                                                                                  WTF??

                                                                                  I have daughters... and Daughter In laws.. I want to be a Grandma at one point but I rather not sacrifice my daughters just to have a grand daughter.

                                                                                  That is utter bullshit.. I hate that Guy... Don't you people read about your presidents when you all vote for them.??

                                                                                  America the moral prude bullshit people.... I am getting fed up with the church going motherfucking rigious people who in the night will fuck their wife up the ass but during the day will pray for forgivness.

                                                                                  God help us all
                                                                                  Didnt you hear about florida and its fucking "chads". We didnt elect the bastard. The Governor of florida did. (Bush's Brother)

                                                                                  Dont go bad talkin us US folk. We know hes a bastard. We more or less didnt have a choice. Oh, and "You guys can't see beyond your church group???" Fuck that. More poeople do not have any sense of church values that do in America. Church is for poeple that dont get enough politics watching cspan.

                                                                                  Its funny to see how people from other countries automatically think that "we're all" in on it, and that "we're all for it."

                                                                                  Though I may be talkin outta my ass here.
                                                                                  469344657

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Rictor
                                                                                    Old Timer
                                                                                    • Jan 2001
                                                                                    • 12208

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    We live in the new Dark Ages.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • LadyMischief
                                                                                      Orgasms N Such!
                                                                                      • Sep 2002
                                                                                      • 18135

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by stocktrader23


                                                                                      Sounds like your niece is being an ADULT and handling responsibility. Did you try to ship her to Canada to have her "slow" child aborted too?

                                                                                      If you know there is a GOOD chance of problems when you get pregnant and you aren't ready to handle those problems, don't get fucking pregnant.
                                                                                      That's really easy for you to say. But honestly, that's one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever heard of. I'm pregnant.. I KNEW there would be problems, but we wanted to try to have a baby. I'm supposed to not want a family with my loving husband because there MIGHT be a problem? Who are you to tell me that? Who are you to tell ANYONE that?

                                                                                      This whole thing is about CHOICE. The ability to choose is a fundamental right that all human beings should have. It's really easy to stand on one side of the line and scream over at the other side.. But what happens when suddenly you find yourself on the other side. I wish that people like you would find themselves in bad situations like that, just so they can learn the meaning of empathy.

                                                                                      I feel sorry for the babies too.. I won't say I don't. I also feel sorry for babies born to stupid fucking mothers who abuse and neglect them, too. But I have seen situations.. ugly things that most people should never see that have opened my eyes to the true meaning and importance of choice.

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                                                                                      • LadyMischief
                                                                                        Orgasms N Such!
                                                                                        • Sep 2002
                                                                                        • 18135

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by TaraD



                                                                                        If they should ban anything they should ban this. Read about what they do to a baby during a partial birth abortion it is sick sick sick. I don't have a problem with women who are raped but i do have a problem with women who use it for a form of birth control.
                                                                                        I agree 100%. THAT is stupid, petty, selfish and irresponsible. They could learn to take a morning after pill at WORST. Fucking dumb bitches like that piss me off.

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                                                                                        • jennym
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • May 2003
                                                                                          • 1622

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by LadyMischief


                                                                                          That's really easy for you to say. But honestly, that's one of the STUPIDEST things I've ever heard of. I'm pregnant.. I KNEW there would be problems, but we wanted to try to have a baby. I'm supposed to not want a family with my loving husband because there MIGHT be a problem? Who are you to tell me that? Who are you to tell ANYONE that?

                                                                                          This whole thing is about CHOICE. The ability to choose is a fundamental right that all human beings should have. It's really easy to stand on one side of the line and scream over at the other side.. But what happens when suddenly you find yourself on the other side. I wish that people like you would find themselves in bad situations like that, just so they can learn the meaning of empathy.

                                                                                          I feel sorry for the babies too.. I won't say I don't. I also feel sorry for babies born to stupid fucking mothers who abuse and neglect them, too. But I have seen situations.. ugly things that most people should never see that have opened my eyes to the true meaning and importance of choice.
                                                                                          LadyM - I think you misunderstood the post. You have every right to have more children. (and I continue to wish you luck with this pregnancy ) I think his point was "If you KNOW there is a HIGH probability of problems, and you AREN'T READY to deal with those possibilities responsibly, then don't get pregnant". I agree with this to the extent that people know they have a family history of problems, get pregnant, find out their child will have problems and abort. As he said in an earlier post, it's just not right to keep trying, and aborting, until you get a perfectly healthy baby.

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • TaraD
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Nov 2003
                                                                                            • 171

                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            My mom had 4 c-sections on her 4th c-section they told her to abort or she could suffer from uterin rupture and die. She choose to keep my brother and yes my mother is still around. If there are problems in the family you can A. Choose not to get pregnant at all B. Take whatever god gives you or C. Hire a Surrogate (I was one last year). I delivered twins last year as a surrogate mother and it makes me sick listening to people who abort and kill babies just because they have downs syndrome or some other genetic problem. My niece has downs and she is the sweetest little girl I ever met. I would be thankful that I have a child but that is me. I wouldn't abort I would risk my life. Just like I risked my life for my twin surro sons last year when I developed HELLP syndrom and my kidneys and liver started shutting down. Insurance companies DO pay for C-sections because That is the only thing I have ever had for all three of my pregnancies. You are in the Hospital for the same amount of time as well. I was in for 2 days and went home. A friend delivered vaginal and was in for 2 days as well no difference anymore unless your at a hopsital that lets you go home after 24 hours of delivering vaginally.

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • LadyMischief
                                                                                              Orgasms N Such!
                                                                                              • Sep 2002
                                                                                              • 18135

                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by jennym


                                                                                              LadyM - I think you misunderstood the post. You have every right to have more children. (and I continue to wish you luck with this pregnancy ) I think his point was "If you KNOW there is a HIGH probability of problems, and you AREN'T READY to deal with those possibilities responsibly, then don't get pregnant". I agree with this to the extent that people know they have a family history of problems, get pregnant, find out their child will have problems and abort. As he said in an earlier post, it's just not right to keep trying, and aborting, until you get a perfectly healthy baby.
                                                                                              Yeah..but unexpected problems arise. One can never know the future.. I wasn't even aware of my own medical conditions until I was ready to deliver my first child. It's such a tough call, really it is. I TOTALLY agree there should be (and probably is) a more humane way of doing things..but I can't agree to taking away the choice.

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                                                                                              • TaraD
                                                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                                                • Nov 2003
                                                                                                • 171

                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                Originally posted by jennym


                                                                                                LadyM - I think you misunderstood the post. You have every right to have more children. (and I continue to wish you luck with this pregnancy ) I think his point was "If you KNOW there is a HIGH probability of problems, and you AREN'T READY to deal with those possibilities responsibly, then don't get pregnant". I agree with this to the extent that people know they have a family history of problems, get pregnant, find out their child will have problems and abort. As he said in an earlier post, it's just not right to keep trying, and aborting, until you get a perfectly healthy baby.

                                                                                                I totally agree they shouldnt abort till they get the so called perfect baby. Again they can either A. not get pregnant or B. accept what god gives them or C. Hire a surrogate LOL

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • LadyMischief
                                                                                                  Orgasms N Such!
                                                                                                  • Sep 2002
                                                                                                  • 18135

                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by TaraD
                                                                                                  My mom had 4 c-sections on her 4th c-section they told her to abort or she could suffer from uterin rupture and die. She choose to keep my brother and yes my mother is still around. If there are problems in the family you can A. Choose not to get pregnant at all B. Take whatever god gives you or C. Hire a Surrogate (I was one last year). I delivered twins last year as a surrogate mother and it makes me sick listening to people who abort and kill babies just because they have downs syndrome or some other genetic problem. My niece has downs and she is the sweetest little girl I ever met. I would be thankful that I have a child but that is me. I wouldn't abort I would risk my life. Just like I risked my life for my twin surro sons last year when I developed HELLP syndrom and my kidneys and liver started shutting down. Insurance companies DO pay for C-sections because That is the only thing I have ever had for all three of my pregnancies. You are in the Hospital for the same amount of time as well. I was in for 2 days and went home. A friend delivered vaginal and was in for 2 days as well no difference anymore unless your at a hopsital that lets you go home after 24 hours of delivering vaginally.
                                                                                                  Ugh! I wish that were the case! I was never in for less than 4 days, and I bled into my abdomen for 6-8 months following both deliveries. Glad to hear you are doing ok.

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                                                                                                  • KRL
                                                                                                    Entrepreneur
                                                                                                    • Oct 2002
                                                                                                    • 31429

                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    We had a girl in her late 20's who was an employee at one of our businesses die while delivering her baby that had complications, so it does happen.

                                                                                                    Having a child is a very traumatic process from start to finish for women.

                                                                                                    My hats off to them with the utmost respect for enduring those 9 long months and the birthing process itself.
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