Q: Why in the hell is it 'acceptable' and 'ok' that sponsors shave? - GoFuckYourself.com - Adult Webmaster Forum

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Gouges

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#1

Q: Why in the hell is it 'acceptable' and 'ok' that sponsors shave?

11-05-2003, 02:12 AM

I'm reaaaally damn curious.

Why the hell wouldnt webmasters simply demand lower payouts and 0% shave.

Sponsors wouldnt have to shave if they would fucking run legit business models. Like you can really afford to pay 35.00 on a 0.00 trial - GET FUCKING REAL.

So why do webmasters just say "Yes, I'm getting fucked up the ass, and all sponsors do it" and then go back to fucking work?

Wouldn't you rather earn 100% of your generated revenue at lower payouts than some unknown percent at 35.00 or 14.95 a pop?

With 0% shave and lower payouts I can PROMISE you that you're bottom line would be higher getting 100% of generated revenue.
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#2

11-05-2003, 02:14 AM

ive been known to beat a nigga down for five..let alone 35 a sale

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twistyneck

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#3

11-05-2003, 02:23 AM

It's not acceptable. Run your own programs and you'll see exactly how widespread the problem is.
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#4

11-05-2003, 02:28 AM

I'd love to, but I (and many webmasters) don't have the proper funds to start such a project and have it be successful.
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#5

11-05-2003, 02:29 AM

Yup, thats what I do.
Promote 20$ no bullshit recurring sponsors, which conver at 1:500

Make more money then on 40$ 0.00$ trial signups that somehow manage to conver at 1.3000
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#6

11-05-2003, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by DarkJedi
Yup, thats what I do.
Promote 20$ no bullshit recurring sponsors, which conver at 1:500

Make more money then on 40$ 0.00$ trial signups that somehow manage to conver at 1.3000

Post 'em, i'll signup under every one you have.

Time to take out the fucking trash.
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SomeCreep

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#7

11-05-2003, 02:36 AM

Theres no proof of shaving. Shaving is myth and rumor that webmasters are quick to believe when ratios are bad, for any and every sponsor.

Yes, I do believe there are some sponsors out there that intentionally shave. In fact, Choker even ran an experiment to test which sponsors shave that was pretty convincing, but I still have yet to see hard evidenice of shaving.

I know my traffic and how well I can make it convert, so when I send it to a sponsor and dont see results, I dont yell "SHAVE!", I just send it elsewhere.

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#8

11-05-2003, 02:39 AM

Originally posted by SomeCreep
Theres no proof of shaving. Shaving is myth and rumor that webmasters are quick to believe when ratios are bad, for any and every sponsor.

Yes, I do believe there are some sponsors out there that intentionally shave. In fact, Choker even ran an experiment to test which sponsors shave that was pretty convincing, but I still have yet to see hard evidenice of shaving.

I know my traffic and how well I can make it convert, so when I send it to a sponsor and dont see results, I dont yell "SHAVE!", I just send it elsewhere.

You can see shaving first hand if you know anything about sponsor software.

Here's a little example...pick a sponsor that you send a large amount of hits to. Have your statsremote or whatever refresh the stats every 5 minutes or so - when you see signups appearing and disappearing you might sing a different tune.
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#9

11-05-2003, 02:39 AM

Shaving is only acceptable because people complain about it, but then go ahead and keep promoting shavers programs anyway.

We don't and we never will - I lost WAY too much money when I first started to programs who shaved me with a goddamn chainsaw to EVER want to do it to anyone else.

Check your figures, watch your traffic, and move your business to people who will look after you.

And there are more of us around than you think.

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#10

11-05-2003, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by Gouge
I'd love to, but I (and many webmasters) don't have the proper funds to start such a project and have it be successful.

Doesn't take a lot of money, it takes the will to actually do it. If you want to take control of your traffic and your sales, it is something you'll eventually have to do. I make a lot more money pushing my site at $19.95 than I ever did pushing a sponsor that paid $35 on a free trial or whatever. TONS more.
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#11

11-05-2003, 02:40 AM

Like I've said before, work with sponsors you trust. Reputation goes a long way in this business.

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#12

11-05-2003, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by SomeCreep

Yes, I do believe there are some sponsors out there that intentionally shave. In fact, Choker even ran an experiment to test which sponsors shave that was pretty convincing

do you have a link to that test? I'd like to see the results.
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#13

11-05-2003, 02:43 AM

Shaving is a myth ? Hahahaha

I love it when I signup to promote a 35$ - 40$ sponsor, send them a lot of traffic, get great convertuons the first 3-4 days and then they turn the shave-machive on and my ratios from 1:400 become 1:3000
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#14

11-05-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by SomeCreep
Theres no proof of shaving. Shaving is myth and rumor that webmasters are quick to believe when ratios are bad, for any and every sponsor.

Yes, I do believe there are some sponsors out there that intentionally shave. In fact, Choker even ran an experiment to test which sponsors shave that was pretty convincing, but I still have yet to see hard evidenice of shaving.

I know my traffic and how well I can make it convert, so when I send it to a sponsor and dont see results, I dont yell "SHAVE!", I just send it elsewhere.

C'mon. Shaving is a reality in this business. If they don't shave directly from your stats, they steal your traffic.
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#15

11-05-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by EvilToyBoy
I lost WAY too much money when I first started to programs who shaved me with a goddamn chainsaw to EVER want to do it to anyone else.

What programs?

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#16

11-05-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by twistyneck

Doesn't take a lot of money, it takes the will to actually do it. If you want to take control of your traffic and your sales, it is something you'll eventually have to do. I make a lot more money pushing my site at $19.95 than I ever did pushing a sponsor that paid $35 on a free trial or whatever. TONS more.

Ok

750.00 for visa
1-3k for a decent tour
1-3k for decent content (to sustain a few months worth of updates)

so roughly 4-6k before you even open the door. Thats a nice chunk of change if you ask me.
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#17

11-05-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by twistyneck

Doesn't take a lot of money, it takes the will to actually do it. If you want to take control of your traffic and your sales, it is something you'll eventually have to do. I make a lot more money pushing my site at $19.95 than I ever did pushing a sponsor that paid $35 on a free trial or whatever. TONS more.

Totally agree

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#18

11-05-2003, 02:44 AM

Why shave ?

Because affiliates want to be paid $35 a signup or more. Thats why.

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#19

11-05-2003, 02:45 AM

You rely on STATSREMOTE, a program NOT officially supported by most of the sites it PARSES stats pages to figure out signups, to claim that a sponsor shaves?

Sorry to tell you, but it is more likely that statsremote just fucks up than it is that a sponsor is stupid enough to have a shaving system implemented that actually REMOVES signups after they appear in stats..

Also, I very much doubt that your bottom line would go up if you stopped using anyone that shaves. At least it would not because of the shaving.. Everyone needs to make money, its just how the sponsor calculates how much they need that determines your bottom line! A sponsor that currently shaves and stops shaving will lower payouts, but they won't just lower the payouts like $10 if their shaving saves them $15 per join... Why would they? They would lower it by $15..

The sponsor calculate how much they can pay out, if they pay $40 per signup and shave 50% or pay $20 per signup, its the same thing...

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#20

11-05-2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Marcus

do you have a link to that test? I'd like to see the results.

http://gofuckyourself.com/showthread...choker+shaving

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#21

11-05-2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by DarkJedi
Shaving is a myth ? Hahahaha

I love it when I signup to promote a 35$ - 40$ sponsor, send them a lot of traffic, get great convertuons the first 3-4 days and then they turn the shave-machive on and my ratios from 1:400 become 1:3000

Exactly. And then you complain and mysteriously the ratios go back to normal.
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#22

11-05-2003, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Sausage
Why shave ?

Because affiliates want to be paid $35 a signup or more. Thats why.

Even with the small amount of posts in this thread is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS that any 'real' webmaster would rather put 100% of 20.00 signups in his pocket than 40-60% of 35.00 signups
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#23

11-05-2003, 02:48 AM

Originally posted by SomeCreep
What programs?

ICQ me and I may share my experiences and views, some are gone, but a few are still around, but without solid proof (which I don't have), I value my own business reputation too much to slander anyone else.

Suffice to say that anyone who has ever programmed or seen a programmed PPJ system KNOWS that shaving on MANY levels is generally a built in facility.

A program can shave one day and then not shave the next.

The ones that make me laugh are webmasters who continually promote programs who shave your joins but not your clicks.

A wise old man once told me:

If it looks like shit, if it smells like shit and if it tastes like shit it is in all probability, shit.

Some good advice in this thread:
- Change sponsors and share traffic around until you find the best for your stuff.
- Build a relationship with the sponsor.
- Ask questions.

My partners are my business, so consequently I treat them as such.

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#24

11-05-2003, 02:50 AM

Originally posted by Nathan
You rely on STATSREMOTE, a program NOT officially supported by most of the sites it PARSES stats pages to figure out signups, to claim that a sponsor shaves?

Sorry to tell you, but it is more likely that statsremote just fucks up than it is that a sponsor is stupid enough to have a shaving system implemented that actually REMOVES signups after they appear in stats..

Also, I very much doubt that your bottom line would go up if you stopped using anyone that shaves. At least it would not because of the shaving.. Everyone needs to make money, its just how the sponsor calculates how much they need that determines your bottom line! A sponsor that currently shaves and stops shaving will lower payouts, but they won't just lower the payouts like $10 if their shaving saves them $15 per join... Why would they? They would lower it by $15..

The sponsor calculate how much they can pay out, if they pay $40 per signup and shave 50% or pay $20 per signup, its the same thing...

You are retarded - and I check my sponsor stats by hand from stats remote also - that was just a fucking example.

Send one of the big pps sponsors a few k an hour - sit and refresh your stats every few minutes for a while and you'll see what i'm talking about.
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#25

11-05-2003, 02:52 AM

Yeah sure, I'm the retard ;)

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#26

11-05-2003, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by Nathan
Yeah sure, I'm the retard ;)

Yea you are - you jump all over my ass in two threads when you didn't even bother to read the whole thing. If you did - I wouldn't be calling you a retard and you wouldn't be jumping my ass.
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#27

11-05-2003, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by Gouge

Ok

750.00 for visa
1-3k for a decent tour
1-3k for decent content (to sustain a few months worth of updates)

so roughly 4-6k before you even open the door. Thats a nice chunk of change if you ask me.

$750 for Visa, that is fixed.

Build the tour yourself, need not be fancy to convert, that is free.

Starter content you could probably do for a couple grand, buy it over time so it isn't so much money all at once but be sure to add to it as frequently as you can.

I started mine with about 50 sets and added more every time there was a sign up. That money went right back into the site. Now it is huge and rebills like mad.
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#28

11-05-2003, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by Gouge

Ok

750.00 for visa
1-3k for a decent tour
1-3k for decent content (to sustain a few months worth of updates)

so roughly 4-6k before you even open the door. Thats a nice chunk of change if you ask me.

I suppose it depends on your level of creativity.
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#29

11-05-2003, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by twistyneck

$750 for Visa, that is fixed.

Build the tour yourself, need not be fancy to convert, that is free.

Starter content you could probably do for a couple grand, buy it over time so it isn't so much money all at once but be sure to add to it as frequently as you can.

I started mine with about 50 sets and added more every time there was a sign up. That money went right back into the site. Now it is huge and rebills like mad.

nice
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#30

11-05-2003, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by twistyneck

I started mine with about 50 sets and added more every time there was a sign up. That money went right back into the site. Now it is huge and rebills like mad.

got a webmaster program for it?
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twistyneck

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#31

11-05-2003, 03:00 AM

Originally posted by Marcus

got a webmaster program for it?

Not really. Maybe someday.
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DarkJedi

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#32

11-05-2003, 03:07 AM

i personally think that CCbill sites are a pretty safe bet agains shaving.
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#33

11-05-2003, 03:12 AM

Originally posted by DarkJedi
i personally think that CCbill sites are a pretty safe bet agains shaving.

I dunno, I was pushing a bikini site that used ccbill and I was 1:17,000 off mostly US traffic. Not sure if that was a ccbill error though becuase at the time everyone was bitching about them.
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#34

11-05-2003, 03:18 AM

Originally posted by twistyneck
It's not acceptable. Run your own programs and you'll see exactly how widespread the problem is.

Thats the answer, RUN YOUR SHIT !

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#35

11-05-2003, 03:19 AM

Starter content you could probably do for a couple grand, buy it over time so it isn't so much money all at once but be sure to add to it as frequently as you can

Even better if possible get yourself a camera and go shoot your own content so you can have 100% exclusive content for your paysites
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#36

11-05-2003, 03:23 AM

I dunno, I was pushing a bikini site that used ccbill and I was 1:17,000 off mostly US traffic. Not sure if that was a ccbill error though becuase at the time everyone was bitching about them

CCbill scrubs pretty hard now doesn't it ? even more than the other processors. Theres another thing you could do if you had the money to back it, if your confident in your own traffic get yourself a merchant account and earn at least another 10% or more instead of giving that huge amount to ccbill for processing, what % do they charge ?
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#37

11-05-2003, 03:41 AM

i don't shave, try out new sponsors till you find one that doesn't.. not hard to make a script where you can do www.domain.com/lesbians.php on your tgp links or how ever you promote and you can edit lesbians.php within 2 seconds to point to new sponsor
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#38

11-05-2003, 04:23 AM

We don't shave and we pay 60/40. CCBill
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#39

11-05-2003, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by Sausage
Why shave ?

Because affiliates want to be paid $35 a signup or more. Thats why.

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#40

11-05-2003, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by Ian
We don't shave and we pay 60/40. CCBill

who the fuck was asking for your spam assclown?
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#41

11-05-2003, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by Sausage
Why shave ?

Because affiliates want to be paid $35 a signup or more. Thats why.

yup, and none of the huge programs can change the payouts, if they lower payouts 10 - 15$ people are going to wonder what the fuck.. if it goes from 40$ a sale down to 25 - 30$, they wouldn't do it for their health.
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#42

11-05-2003, 05:13 AM

You can blow me any time Trash
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#43

11-05-2003, 05:18 AM

People don't care if they're getting ripped off as long as you promise them $35 per signup and have the occasional Fifty Dollar Friday.

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#44

11-05-2003, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by FATPad
People don't care if they're getting ripped off as long as you promise them $35 per signup and have the occasional Fifty Dollar Friday.

Yea, 99.9% of webmasters are sheep.

I've already set in motion plans to remove myself as much as possible from normal 'sponsors'.

Tired of seeing all this first hand.

For those of you who are saying shit like "everyone does it, get over it, deal with it, (insert lame ass comment here)" I'll be laughing my happy ass to the bank while you sit there wondering why the fuck your ratio just shot up to 1:3000 over night with SE traffic.

And the point of this thread was exactly about that. Why the hell does everyone just say "Oh well."???????

I'm fucking stumped.
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#45

11-05-2003, 05:26 AM

Originally posted by Sausage
Why shave ?

Because affiliates want to be paid $35 a signup or more. Thats why.

That remains a very stupid argument. Of course people want it if you offer it. People will always take what they feel is the best offer. The fact that in at least some cases shaving will take place to achieve that doesn't come into it simply because most people are too dumb to take that into account.

The ONLY people to blame are the programs that decided to start offering this in the first place, when the numbers meant they couldn't afford to do so without fraud.

As people are usually to dumb to understand posts fully I'll make it clear that I am not saying that all programs paying $35+ psu are shaving. My feelings one way or another on that subject I keep to myself. However it's certain that at least a few do and to blame the affiliate for going for what they feel is the best offer (whether or not it is in reality the best offer) is dumb at best.

Ignorance is never bliss.
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#46

11-05-2003, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by Gouge

And the point of this thread was exactly about that. Why the hell does everyone just say "Oh well."???????

I'm fucking stumped.

I think rather than most people saying 'oh well' or that it's acceptable, people just plod along because although they may know the truth with certain sponsors deep down, on the surface they have no solid proof and convince themselves that is isn't so.

Obviously amounts to much the same thing but for the most part the deciding factor here really is proof.

Ignorance is never bliss.
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#47

11-05-2003, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by gin
i don't shave, try out new sponsors till you find one that doesn't.. not hard to make a script where you can do www.domain.com/lesbians.php on your tgp links or how ever you promote and you can edit lesbians.php within 2 seconds to point to new sponsor

that's a nice tip, buttt how aboput the banners and link descriptions?
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#48

11-05-2003, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by Gouge

And the point of this thread was exactly about that. Why the hell does everyone just say "Oh well."???????

I'm not a psych major or anything, so I don't know the technical terms for this, but I would imagine it has to do with how people imagine certain outcomes, and Could Have/Would Have thoughts.

For example:
If they do a $35/signup program send 10,000 clicks and make 10 sales, they'll think something like "I only *WOULD HAVE* made $200 if I went with that $20/signup program instead of the $350 I did make."

Conversely, if they went with a $20/signup program and sent 10,000 clicks and made 20 sales, they'll think something along the lines of "I *COULD HAVE* made $700 instead of $400."

It's stupid and it's wrong for obvious reasons (to me anyways), but I would bet that is part of it.

It has to do with how people imagine certain outcomes and which ones look more favorable even if the comparisons are not equal and are invalid.

Hmm....oh well. First cup of coffee. Hope that made sense.

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#49

11-05-2003, 07:32 AM

I think its pretty simple why many programs shave and offer the higher payout instead of lowering the payout and not shaving. Sure webmasters love to see the $35 PPS but that aside if any well established program right now decided to stop shaving. And lower payout they would be incriminating themselves. They would be admiting to fraud.

What can they say without losing it all. "Ok guys we are lowering our payouts from $35 per sale to $19 per sale but guess what! We arent shaving you anymore"

The established programs are kind of "stuck" in that business model.

New programs are a different matter. They can put together a model that doesn't require them to shave. Being a pessimist I would suspect some would still shave anyway just because they can but for the most part a business model that makes sense will probably be the sponsors to push going forward.

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#50

11-05-2003, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by Gouge
I'm reaaaally damn curious.

Why the hell wouldnt webmasters simply demand lower payouts and 0% shave.

Sponsors wouldnt have to shave if they would fucking run legit business models. Like you can really afford to pay 35.00 on a 0.00 trial - GET FUCKING REAL.

So why do webmasters just say "Yes, I'm getting fucked up the ass, and all sponsors do it" and then go back to fucking work?

Wouldn't you rather earn 100% of your generated revenue at lower payouts than some unknown percent at 35.00 or 14.95 a pop?

With 0% shave and lower payouts I can PROMISE you that you're bottom line would be higher getting 100% of generated revenue.

i think sponsors would still shave. they get greedy. and they think they can easily pull it off.

VP of Marketing
AVN Media Network
Skype: AVNJill
[email protected]
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