The Expansion of the Patriot Act...

The US has lost its way in public education. We're not keeping up.

On the other hand the US has more top universities than any other nation in the world. Yale, Harvard, Princeton, MIT, Cal Tech,
Brown, Cornell, Stanford, University of Chicago. I could go on. So could you. There are few other places in the world I would have wanted to go for my education. Oxford or Cambridge would be good choices.

These schools are businesses with huge endowments and hence great staffs. They can afford the best equipment and have the largest research grants. American scientists dominate the nobel prize in physics and medicine.

So yup, we have more McDonald's employees than any nation in the world and more scientists too.

Too many bombs. Not enough books.

Simple enough really.

Interesting thesis. So you think that spending 4% of a $10 trillion economy on military hardware is lowering public school educational standards, Joe?

With tuitions rising more and more every year, though, it's harder for the average guy to access a post-secondary education. That's not isolated to the States, either.. it's happening in Canada and other countries. But it's VERY naive to say that America is the BEST when it comes to that, because they're not. Yes they have more top schools, but it's a bigger country too. Glad to see you aren't so busy tooting the US horn that you can't admit to the truth, Colin

And I wasn't referring to YOU being naive, Colin.. Far from it.. you aren't so blinded by "patriotism" that you overlook the facts in your face

Well it's not just the bombs themselves but the cost associated with dropping them on foreigners. How much is all this warmongering costing Colin? If it were my tax dollars I'd rather see more money spent on education and less on imperialism.

I think, LadyMischief, that some of the same factors that lead to American strength with its large number of top schools also leads to American weakness in its public school system.

The main factor being a large population. As population increases wealth tends to spread out. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. For starters, the wealthy get wealthier because they earn more interest on their money (investments, CDs, stock market etc). The more unchecked the system of capitalism is, the greater this wealth inequality becomes. With everything else equal, more people added to the economy increases inequality. More money added to the economy increases inequality.

We all know the poor get the shaft in education. The bottom line is that education in America is very unequal and it becomes more unequal in time.

In 1997, there were 144,000 tax returns filed with the IRS that showed over $1million in adjusted gross income. Contrast this with the 32 million families making less than $20,000 a year.

If all is left the same policy-wise, if population and wealth continue to increase in the US, income inequality will continue to increase. More people will end up poor and more people will end up wealthy. However the number of poor will increase much faster than the number of wealthy. This would tend to create a cognitive elite and a great college system at the highest levels and keep the American Nobel prizes coming however it will also create a decreasing overall average in performance as the increasing number of poor bring down the average.

That assumes a lot. That policy doesn't change, that there is not a revolution in the education system, and that business law stays relatively the same as a few examples.

The most populous countries in the world are generally poor.
Despite this handicap, the US is a notable exception with one of the highest GDPs per capita in the world. A two centuries old brand of capitalism, vast social capital, early urbanization and industrialization, and stability have certainly helped.

All that "warmongering" helped make the US economy large. ;-)

Absolutely, I'm not debating that America is AMONG the top in the world, I DO debate the blind statement that America is *THE BEST* when it is simply not the full truth.

And now it's maknig the US debt large!

The US debt relative to the size of its economy is average among G7 nations. It's about 61% right now I think. This is less than it was in the mid-1990s. It's also considerably less than Canada's was just 6 years ago. Interestingly, Canada has reduced its debt to just 37% in those few years.

The US has had similar waves of higher and lower debt in the past. It was once in excess of 100% (like Italy's and Japan's is today). It reached a low of 35% in the late 1970's (and then increased to 50% under Reagan).

The US debt was over 50% from 1943 until 1963.

The US economy is 45 times larger than that of the 20th largest economy. That's why its debt seems that much higher. Many nations have similar debt to the US compared to its size.

Yes but the continued dip into far-from endless pockets to cover the cost of war certainly isn't going to help

The facts you bring attention to can be interpreted in many different ways. There is always positive and negative reinforcement in every notion. Having different opinions doesn't make either right or wrong. We also aren't speaking of things that are in effect, but proposals that have many phases to pass through, before it's time to panic. My argument is not whether or not the Patriot Act II is fair and justified, my statement is to be thankful for what we do have.

As far as America having the best educational opportunities, it is true. The US has the best facilities on earth. However, there is food for every bird, but mother nature doesn't drop it in nests. It's out there and has to be attained on your own will to survive and climb up the food chain ladder.