Patriot Act: Slippery slop has begun...

This keeps getting better. Earlier you said "I think the net and porn industry on the net do need more policing than there is. If I had a child, I wouldn't want them surfing TGPs as easily as they could." And it turns out you're a porn spammer! How many kids do you think receive your spam? Thanks to people like you the internet will get more policing, but it won't matter to you because you can "adapt to the change".
Why do I get the feeling you are either from Florida or Texas?

What the fuck are you talking about? I do NOT email spam.

And I am from NY... I guess you didn't read the LOCATION text to the left of my posts

Of course you don't. Those 10 computers you have are simply trying to figure out how to defend Deep Blues a4 Kb3 attack.

If this is what you believe my dear, you are sadly mistaken. I know several people who did nothing illegal, yet promoted "adult content" who were taken to jail, had all their equipment confiscated (NONE of them have gotten it back either), and basically had their lives ruined because of ALREADY existing laws. If Bush looks for a scapegoat, it's gonna be porn, because it's right there and ripe for the plucking. And the incidents I'm talking about were in the states. The shakedown IS coming, it's already begun.

I don't have to defend myself to you... but if you can ever prove that I am an email spammer, I wouldn't deny it. Of course, no proof exists, so you are wrong

Problem is they can take just about anything and twist it to use against you, and it wouldn't take much. I've seen them do it time and again, and no matter HOW smart you are, if they want you, you're going down. In their eyes, you do porn, you are NOT an upstanding citizen. Period.

I'm willing to bet, the cases you mention from existing laws, were violations of local obscenity laws. The Supreme court already ruled long ago, to let obscenity be determined locally. So yeah, there are already one traffic light towns, with bored law officials, cracking down on porn peddlers, using the existing laws. That's old news... and really, nothing we can do about it. The majority will always rule against porn. We can protest until we're blue in the face, but it won't change much. Most of the bad rep porn has received, is from people being bombarded with email spam for it. That's where all the complaints stem from, major ISPs like AOL bringing it up to Congress. It would have been an issue, no matter who was in office, because of that in itself.

LadyMischief:

You hit that on the head!

It takes the movement of one sheet of paper from the right side of your desk to the left side... and Ho! We got a conspiracy charge! Couple that with a load of warped Christian fundamentalists running the place and it's the death row walk

To reiterate, porn and internet crimes associated with, are just another example of injustices that already exist, long before the internet ever existed. There will always be something they can twist, just to get a conviction... if they want that person badly enough. There are all sorts of old laws, we have all seen them passed around the net; like "It's illegal to have sex on your lawn, with socks on in certain small towns in Nebraska" etc. If the local authorities or feds have it in for you, they will bring anything and everything to the surface that they can. Do you think the government is going to be able to bring charges up, on every US pornographer? Highly unlikely. There's prostitution legal in Nevada, adult magazines, stores etc ...I truly don't believe that porn is going down in flames.

my
http://www.draftwesleyclark.com/

Maybe not *email* spam, but I've seen your spam pages Love the exit hell and AP clickpics, you really squeeze out every dollar!

Furious_Female:

I doubt the US govt actually gives a damn about porn or "capturing" pornographers - if they do, it's usually some motivated DA needing a career, - or it's election time - ie time for fully fledged hypocracy to come to the forefront.

Tho.. it is possible the US govt "wants" to create yet another "good front" and charge anyone connected with porn - they charge more folks for *anything* than any other country. Why do you reckon VISA US "needs" to track porn sites/memberships?? Oh.. chargebacks of course Wait for it!

And no.. porn ain't going down in flames - it's doing fine globally.

I'm telling indoe you accused me of spamming!

Just an aside... You ever noticed how something is always "good for you" but turns out to be the exact opposite and white means it's black??

The Patriot Act is yet another example... it's got fuck all to do with "patriotism" but simply a pandering to appeal to the acceptability of some. Julius Caesar did the same along with the Third Reich.

Sadly the current US Admin have made a habit of saying black is white.

Agreed.

The government already takes 30-40% of what I make with porn. They have more than penalized me for being "immoral"

The original Patriot Act appeared so quickly, it had to be something that was ready and waiting for an opportunity to pass into law. I have a suspicion that if terrorism hadn't "turned up", we would still have seen these laws sooner or later. That alone makes me very cynical about their intent.

I believe the main purpose was - via the back door - to plug some of the loopholes that have been allowed to weaken the intent of existing laws. I don't have a problem with that amibition per se, providing it is accomplished by due process. In addition, there have never been laws passed in haste that proved to be good laws. Finally, when power is put into the hands of officials, sooner or later it is always abused.

"Patriot2" - which has been doing the rounds since at least January - is an even more ominous document. Many of the laws in it go far beyond anything that is necessary or useful in dealing with terrorists. I do not believe that the authorities should have to jump through the hoops they do now to get warrants. But the idea of not needing warrants at all is very scary indeed. Similarly, I see no reason not to extend, perhaps to 3-7 days the length of time that a terrorist suspect can be held without charge. But I am totally opposed to the idea that he should be held and tried without the same rights to counsel and to the same standards of proof as any other suspect.

Terrorism may be a more emotive crime, but its victims are no more victims than victims of other crimes of violence. There will always be more "common" criminals than terrorists. So where is the rationale in creating a parallel, lesser system of justice? The courts already make mistakes even with all the "get-out-of-jail-free" cards that exist now. If the authorities - as they surely will - do extend their use of these provisions beyond their stated targets, then the application of different standards could make many non-terrorists victims of the additional injustices that are likely.

Having lived in the UK during the height of the IRA bombings and in Israel for almost a decade, I am extremely doubtful whether the existence of these laws is going to be very useful. Neither laws nor higher levels of practical anti-terrorist precautions than are yet evident in the US was able to prevent terrorist activity in either of those countries.

Whether you go along with that assessment or not, the fact remains that if you wait to see whether Patriot2 is used to impinge on the freedoms of ordinary people, it will be too late. You will not be able to communicate with the people sucked into the net and you may be sucked in yourself if you try, or if you speak out against anything that is happening.

These powers are simply far too broad to have any place in a democratic republic such as the US. Remember the Bonus Army. Remember McCarthy. Remember Kent State. Some terrible things have happened here under our existing laws. What would be possible under Patriot2 doesn't bear thinking about.

Haha

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be law enforcement abuse of the Patriot Act...there is abuse of virtually every law on the books...from simple city ordinances...traffic laws...and upward. These abuses are fought against...sometimes successfully somtimes not. A court is interfering with the Justice Department prosecution of the so called "20th" 9/11 hijacker. The Atorney Gerneral is appealing the Judge's ruling and has stated that if they lose the appeal they may very well withdraw the case from civilian court and turn him over to be held and tried by a military tribunal. Some will think that this is an abuse of the law...but I think that (I am not certain) the Supreme Court has already ruled that military tribunals are legal. If abuses become predominate...I am satisfied that the Courts will crack down on the abuses...and Congress may modify the Patriot Act. Laws are often modified...and sometimes repealed entirely.

In the meantime some people will undoutedly be caught up in abuse and suffer from it...just as some innocent people have been caught up in the justice system prior to the Patriot Act.

Just as with law prior to the Patriot Act...forunately those that are detained...prosecuted...convicted...and incarcerated...for the most part are guilty of crimes...and the same will apply to the Patriot Act. I do not fear the Patriot Act...as I am not a criminal...nor am I a terrorist...and I do not knowingly associate with those that are...nor do I have any nexus to them.

In addition I do not care if the Patriot Act is used to catch and prosecute common criminals. What ever law is used to take them off of the streets gets a thumbs up from me.

A government is an evil. It's needful evil - any somewhat complex society can't effectivelly exist without a government, but this doesn't make it good. And any government always attempts to get as much control at possible. It doesn't depend on people, it's just a built-in feature of this construct. By default. It's just a way how all dynamic systems act.

Ordinary people should understand this and should take care of themselves and of each other.

Giving up some freedoms in exchange for security is reasonable - you can't get more security not paying anything. But people must be careful in giving too much power to a government. Because there is a point behind of which nothing depends on people, but all in hands of a government as a construct. It stops serving people then at all.

Why do all the right wing gun nuts always have 'GOD' in their title?

Why do all of the sheep baaaaaa?

All the books are coming true. Now our government used doublespeak... The "Patriot Act" has nothing to do with patriotism, and everything to do with using blind nationalism to take away the freedoms of citizens. Do you know what an authoritarian regime based on nationalism is called? Fascism.

Long time no see Dan! Your coming off kind of strong, is there something you're sore at? Is there something I'am not aware of? Please let me know if I can make you a happier person.

False accusations are no joke. Look for me on AIM, you know my screenname.

So support extra taxes to put more enforcement out on the streets and to build more prisons. Campaign for technical loopholes in existing laws to be stopped up. Or whatever you think it would take. But why would you need to pretend it has anything to do with terrorism?

You are a damn fool if you support laws that can so easily be used by someone against you one day, not because you are a criminal, but because he doesn't like your opinions or some harmless - to everyone's perception except his - activity.

If you are as much in favor of big brother government as your comments would suggest, then maybe you could find time as well to campaign for a decent education system and health care. Or is "big government" only okay for locking up (you hope) other people?

We have certain rights in this country.

Amendment 1: Freedom of speech and expression. Now we are being censored and arrested for voicing our opinions by the people we pay our unbearably high taxes to.

Amendment 2: To bear arms. As long as you don't live in places where they don't want you to bear arms, in which case you're committing a felony. Our government is handing out AK47's to Iraqi civilians yet we are not permitted to have them. And I paid.

Amendment 4: Unreasonable search and seizure. I'm going to quote this one:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Can anyone explain how probable cause includes purchasing a plane ticket, driving faster than some pencil dick civil engineer says, or entering a public building?

Amendment 5: I'm going to have to quote this one also:
"nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation" - yet governments seize things on a daily basis, from cars, houses, boats, and airplanes, to even the smallest of things such as nail clippers.

Amendment 6: The patriot act throws this one out. We might as well discard it completely. The legal defense concept is outdated anyway.

And there you have it - the original bill of rights is history. Why is this important? Beats the fuck out of me, there are so many stupid people in this country that just want to be victims. Unfortunately, I hope some of you get your wish.

They are much narrower than they used to be. Do you think there are more or less ideological differences in a comparison of 2003 America and 1863 Civil-War America? Hell, there are less differences today than in 1973 America. Then, there was a much greater divide between conservative and liberal ideas. I think much of the low voter turn-out among Democrats the past 30 years is that many of their key ideas such as increased civil rights have occured and that attitudes have become more homogenous as a result. There's less to debate.

Most Americans think of their government as being essentially invisible and having no effect on their day-to-day lives. In the US, our biggest differences now are what our favorite football team is and whether the Big 10 is better than the SEC football conference.

If there is a widening gap, when do you think it narrower? What time would anyone wish to return to? When women couldn't vote? When there were jewish quotes in the universities? When blacks were enslaved or couldn't go to "white schools". The battles of liberal democracy are being won.

The Republican and Democratic parties are more similar to each other today than they were 100 years ago.

Do I have my own personal problems with some aspects of the Patriot Act...yes...but I also have problems with several different laws. You jumped on my "In addition" but ignored the following.

Haha nah it's just political debate. This kind of shit can and will be used on spammers in the future. And as for false accusations me, her, line, ytcracker and a good amount of other people have admitted to spamming in other threads. It's not that big of a deal.

The US no longer has a justice system.

I have heard that statement for all of the years that I can remember. It may be true that..."there is nothing new under the Sun".

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