PSW to sue VISA/Master !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • Fabien
    Confirmed User
    • Jul 2003
    • 4789

    #1

    PSW to sue VISA/Master !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    PSW to sue VISA/Master




    CRANSTON, R.I. - PSW Billing has sent letters of representation outlining charges against Visa, Visa International, MasterCard, Inc., and MasterCard International. The billing company is threatening to sue to have the credit companies fined and disciplined otherwise, accusing them of deceptive and unfair business practices over tightened chargeback policies and arbitrary retroactive fines against "high risk" businesses like the adult Internet.

    PSW charges Visa and MasterCard with non-protection of "friendly fraud," meaning they admit about 85 percent of all chargebacks equal "friendly fraud" - customers claiming never to have made the transaction in the first place - but still fining high-risk businesses $100 chargeback fees retroactively on such transactions, "which is unfair and unjustified, there seems no logical reason for it except greed," PSW says.

    The preliminary move comes four months after another third-party biller, Paycom Billing Services, sued only MasterCard, charging them with what Paycom called "illegally impos(ing) fines and penalties in the millions of dollars."

    "They lowered us back to a 1 percent chargeback threshold (starting in October 2003), and I don't know where it's going to stop," said PSW Billing chief executive officer John Lombardi when reached for comment by AVN Online. "The banks keep increasing required reserves. The chargeback policy is ludicrous. And to what purpose do the fines serve? Nobody can answer," Lombardi said, "except for use as a revenue stream for Visa and MasterCard."

    Visa did not return a query for comment from AVN Online as this story went to press, and MasterCard's media spokesman was unavailable for comment.

    "I willl pull no punches," he said firmly, about the court action. "If they don't reply in two weeks, on the morning of the fifteenth day we'll be standing there," meaning ready to file a full lawsuit in Federal court.

    Lombardi said he didn't know whether Visa, Visa International, MasterCard, or MasterCard International would reply other than possibly "to slow down the process. But as for negotiating with these guys, I have no idea what they?ll do," he said.

    Visa announced the coming chargeback rate drop in July, making the rate 1 percent down from 2.5 percent for domestic transactions and 2 percent down from 2.5 percent for foreign transactions. PSW at the time suggested adult site owners review their processors' acceptable use policies and terms and stay compliant to "current and updated" regulations.

    "Visa's never been at any liability for chargebacks," Lombardi said. "We pay them, yet then they go back four months or more and fine webmasters for a chargeback? I don't know if they just think, 'well, you're in the pornography business, and if you take us to court you're not going to get any sympathy'."

    He said PSW decided to challenge Visa and MasterCard at once because they were "all identical, doing the same thing. So, here we go.

    "I honestly think the adult Internet industry should rally behind us," he continued, "because it's not about PSW. In the present environment, any billing company or webmaster can step out of this business or be forced to shut down. The fact is, if we don't stop them, what will happen if they drop the rate another half point? With friendly fraud so rampant, who will be able to stay in compliance, or in business for that matter? We have said ?enough is enough? and are ready to go to bat for our entire industry."
  • JamesK
    hi
    • Jun 2002
    • 16731

    #2
    isn't globill dead?
    M3Server - NATS Hosting

    Comment

    • tomax
      Registered User
      • Mar 2003
      • 95

      #3
      Originally posted by Wildcard
      isn't globill dead?
      ?

      The post was about PSW Billing, a different company.

      But I think they will all be dead within two years, even the big guns like ccbill, iBill, Epoch. I'm not being pessimist, just realist.

      One would have to be in denial to not see what is going on. Clearly visa and mastercard want to kill third party and just have everyone go direct with there own merchant accounts. These lawsuits by third party companies are one last desperate attempt by them to stay alive. It may work. But I doubt it.
      tomax

      Comment

      • XxXotic
        Confirmed User
        • Jun 2002
        • 8500

        #4
        i really hope visa doesn't laugh at them then crush them with thousands of hours of litigation, drama and bullshit. would be ironic if PSW were the ones who started putting the nails in their own coffin
        Oxeo - Serious Hosting For Serious Webmasters. iCQ:135.887013

        Comment

        • tomax
          Registered User
          • Mar 2003
          • 95

          #5
          Visa is a trillion dollar organization. They could outspend anyone in litigation, even if all the third party billers banded together to sue. The only entity powerful enough to take them on is the government and they already sued for anti-trust reasons. But that did not help our industry.
          tomax

          Comment

          • NBDesign
            Confirmed User
            • Jan 2003
            • 5814

            #6
            Fuck you assholes.... instead of supporting a company that is trying to help you.... you keep spewing out such negativity....

            I say.... GO PSW!!!! I wish I had some money to donate to your cause... I think Visa is a power mad greedy fuck that deserved to be put in their place.

            For all of you that do not support PSw in this effort... I hope Visa fucks you up the ass hard and you go under when you get all the chargebacks from them.

            Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic.


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            Comment

            • Platinum Dave
              Confirmed User
              • Mar 2001
              • 2441

              #7
              This is HUGE HUGE NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!

              PSW my god I am very impressed.

              How can the entire industry help you?


              Check out Adult Rental - Only Pay Per Signup VOD!

              Comment

              • Cassie
                Confirmed User
                • Mar 2003
                • 3139

                #8
                two points to be made here,

                1. yes psw is standing up for the industry and that is to be commended!

                2. however, if they do win does anyone think of the reprecusions of this action? visa and mastercard could effectively stop processing for all adult merchants and in retrospect, hurt mainstream businesses as well by dropping the percentage even more to make up for lost income.

                every cause has an affect.
                ICQ: 309756847
                ]

                Comment

                • gornyhuy
                  Chafed.
                  • May 2002
                  • 18041

                  #9
                  Exactly! WOOO HOOOO PSW.

                  Take a stand... keep us posted... let us know how we can support you. God help us if everyone has to get their own merchant accounts.

                  icq:159548293

                  Comment

                  • 12clicks
                    Too lazy to set a custom title
                    • Jan 2001
                    • 19814

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Fabien
                    PSW to sue VISA/Master




                    CRANSTON, R.I. - PSW Billing has sent letters of representation outlining charges against Visa, Visa International, MasterCard, Inc., and MasterCard International. The billing company is threatening to sue to have the credit companies fined and disciplined otherwise, accusing them of deceptive and unfair business practices over tightened chargeback policies and arbitrary retroactive fines against "high risk" businesses like the adult Internet.

                    PSW charges Visa and MasterCard with non-protection of "friendly fraud," meaning they admit about 85 percent of all chargebacks equal "friendly fraud" - customers claiming never to have made the transaction in the first place - but still fining high-risk businesses $100 chargeback fees retroactively on such transactions, "which is unfair and unjustified, there seems no logical reason for it except greed," PSW says.

                    The preliminary move comes four months after another third-party biller, Paycom Billing Services, sued only MasterCard, charging them with what Paycom called "illegally impos(ing) fines and penalties in the millions of dollars."

                    "They lowered us back to a 1 percent chargeback threshold (starting in October 2003), and I don't know where it's going to stop," said PSW Billing chief executive officer John Lombardi when reached for comment by AVN Online. "The banks keep increasing required reserves. The chargeback policy is ludicrous. And to what purpose do the fines serve? Nobody can answer," Lombardi said, "except for use as a revenue stream for Visa and MasterCard."

                    Visa did not return a query for comment from AVN Online as this story went to press, and MasterCard's media spokesman was unavailable for comment.

                    "I willl pull no punches," he said firmly, about the court action. "If they don't reply in two weeks, on the morning of the fifteenth day we'll be standing there," meaning ready to file a full lawsuit in Federal court.

                    Lombardi said he didn't know whether Visa, Visa International, MasterCard, or MasterCard International would reply other than possibly "to slow down the process. But as for negotiating with these guys, I have no idea what they?ll do," he said.

                    Visa announced the coming chargeback rate drop in July, making the rate 1 percent down from 2.5 percent for domestic transactions and 2 percent down from 2.5 percent for foreign transactions. PSW at the time suggested adult site owners review their processors' acceptable use policies and terms and stay compliant to "current and updated" regulations.

                    "Visa's never been at any liability for chargebacks," Lombardi said. "We pay them, yet then they go back four months or more and fine webmasters for a chargeback? I don't know if they just think, 'well, you're in the pornography business, and if you take us to court you're not going to get any sympathy'."

                    He said PSW decided to challenge Visa and MasterCard at once because they were "all identical, doing the same thing. So, here we go.

                    "I honestly think the adult Internet industry should rally behind us," he continued, "because it's not about PSW. In the present environment, any billing company or webmaster can step out of this business or be forced to shut down. The fact is, if we don't stop them, what will happen if they drop the rate another half point? With friendly fraud so rampant, who will be able to stay in compliance, or in business for that matter? We have said ?enough is enough? and are ready to go to bat for our entire industry."
                    In related news, earlier today, a man tried to over throw the chinese governemnt with his pea shooter.
                    I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

                    Comment

                    • NBDesign
                      Confirmed User
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 5814

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Cassie
                      two points to be made here,

                      1. yes psw is standing up for the industry and that is to be commended!

                      2. however, if they do win does anyone think of the reprecusions of this action? visa and mastercard could effectively stop processing for all adult merchants and in retrospect, hurt mainstream businesses as well by dropping the percentage even more to make up for lost income.

                      every cause has an affect.
                      Actually Cassie...

                      Do you think it better to lay down and take this from Visa? I mean what is stopping them from screwing us over even more?

                      These people need to know they are NOT gods and are human like the rest of us... To unfairly charge back a company for services they provided to these people is not right.... Granted some of the chargebacks are legit... but most are not. These people should be the ones fined, not the businesses.

                      If you do not stand up to a bully... he will keep beating you down.

                      Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic.


                      Get Heidi for your site Here. Lots of sets to choose from.
                      She makes a great Addition to any site. Grab one Grab All.

                      Comment

                      • Cassie
                        Confirmed User
                        • Mar 2003
                        • 3139

                        #12
                        Originally posted by NBDesign


                        Actually Cassie...

                        Do you think it better to lay down and take this from Visa? I mean what is stopping them from screwing us over even more?

                        These people need to know they are NOT gods and are human like the rest of us... To unfairly charge back a company for services they provided to these people is not right.... Granted some of the chargebacks are legit... but most are not. These people should be the ones fined, not the businesses.

                        If you do not stand up to a bully... he will keep beating you down.
                        im not arguing that. i have been saying for 3 years that someone larger then me needs to take on visa. i even emailed out petitions to be signed to stop their tactics and to file a class action suit but noone wanted any part of it then.

                        now, all of a sudden, people want to point out the wrongs they are doing from cb ratios to indicating what domains you can use and what content within site that can be used.

                        i am glad someone is taking them on. all i ask is at what cost we will all pay (if any) for this action.

                        think clearly about this (set aside any emotions for i was screaming the same as you not too long ago; think objectively) and you may see that as one end prevails, the other end may hurt us.

                        then again, i could be thinking too much and nothing happens and we all win like we should be winning.
                        ICQ: 309756847
                        ]

                        Comment

                        • tony299
                          lurker
                          • Aug 2002
                          • 57021

                          #13
                          I think its too late this should been done years ago , I heard from a old timer that cb ratio on line used to 5% , when that dropped thats when the action should been taken. Also there are checks, tighten up the scrubbing and its better than cc's.

                          Comment

                          • JMM
                            Confirmed User
                            • Apr 2001
                            • 1755

                            #14
                            I have never used PSW Billing and know nothing about them, EXCEPT:

                            They seem to have plenty of money to spend on things other then PAYING THEIR WEBMASTERS.

                            But hey, what do I know?

                            Comment

                            • NBDesign
                              Confirmed User
                              • Jan 2003
                              • 5814

                              #15
                              Hey Cassie,

                              Sorry no one paid attention when you were screaming about this... I would have if I was around, I hate injustice.

                              I tried to get into the adult game a year ago... mainstream for me had been dying a slow death and I need a serious change and going to work for an hourly wage or salary was not an option... I have gotten too use to wokring for myself to bow down to a time clock... besides... I do some of my best work in the AM hours... I cannot perform on command like a company would expect.

                              Anyway, to make a long story short... just as I was about to jump in... the 750.00 Visa reg came into effect... kept me out a whole year... Now that I am in the game... this new chargeback rule goes into effect.

                              Granted, there is a lot of scum and cheaters out there that only care about making a quick buck and don't care how they do it... These are the people that should have to pay for their mistakes not the new guy (or a reputable companythat has been around a while) that is trying to make an HONEST living out of this.

                              This whole Visa thing needs to be regulated by the government.. hell, they regulate everything else including our business. Just like when the Utility companies had to allow fair competition... granted, there are two electric companies in Phoneix.. but the consumer still does not have a choice on who they can use... you are either in one compaies location or the other... in order to change to the competition, you have to move into their area. So, there is not "real" competition for these big utility companies... at least the electric.

                              There needs to be a solution to all this, one that is fair to all parties involved and not targeted to one specific group.

                              Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic.


                              Get Heidi for your site Here. Lots of sets to choose from.
                              She makes a great Addition to any site. Grab one Grab All.

                              Comment

                              • SunTzu
                                Confirmed User
                                • May 2002
                                • 456

                                #16
                                Originally posted by 12clicks


                                In related news, earlier today, a man tried to over throw the chinese governemnt with his pea shooter.

                                Yes, no way they could win....

                                Don't remember the tiny company called MCI vs. AT&T?
                                Gtalk and email :: sd at tabu.com

                                Comment

                                • Kimmykim
                                  bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                  • Jun 2001
                                  • 16015

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by tomax
                                  But I think they will all be dead within two years, even the big guns like ccbill, iBill, Epoch. I'm not being pessimist, just realist.

                                  One would have to be in denial to not see what is going on. Clearly visa and mastercard want to kill third party and just have everyone go direct with there own merchant accounts. These lawsuits by third party companies are one last desperate attempt by them to stay alive. It may work. But I doubt it.
                                  The difference between third party aggregators and the Visa/MC class created IPSPs is like the difference between hamburger and filet mignon.

                                  I would suggest you brush up on your 'history of the audiotext' business if you want to get a real idea of what is happening and where it will most likely end up.

                                  Comment

                                  • Cassie
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Mar 2003
                                    • 3139

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by NBDesign
                                    Hey Cassie,

                                    Sorry no one paid attention when you were screaming about this... I would have if I was around, I hate injustice.

                                    I tried to get into the adult game a year ago... mainstream for me had been dying a slow death and I need a serious change and going to work for an hourly wage or salary was not an option... I have gotten too use to wokring for myself to bow down to a time clock... besides... I do some of my best work in the AM hours... I cannot perform on command like a company would expect.

                                    Anyway, to make a long story short... just as I was about to jump in... the 750.00 Visa reg came into effect... kept me out a whole year... Now that I am in the game... this new chargeback rule goes into effect.

                                    Granted, there is a lot of scum and cheaters out there that only care about making a quick buck and don't care how they do it... These are the people that should have to pay for their mistakes not the new guy (or a reputable companythat has been around a while) that is trying to make an HONEST living out of this.

                                    This whole Visa thing needs to be regulated by the government.. hell, they regulate everything else including our business. Just like when the Utility companies had to allow fair competition... granted, there are two electric companies in Phoneix.. but the consumer still does not have a choice on who they can use... you are either in one compaies location or the other... in order to change to the competition, you have to move into their area. So, there is not "real" competition for these big utility companies... at least the electric.

                                    There needs to be a solution to all this, one that is fair to all parties involved and not targeted to one specific group.
                                    here we have a double edge sword. the govt needs to regulate this HOWEVER do we really want the govt, with it's current administration, regulating anything we do???

                                    at this point, you would have a better chance of winning the power ball then proper and FAIR govt regulation
                                    ICQ: 309756847
                                    ]

                                    Comment

                                    • GrimShawn
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Oct 2002
                                      • 8120

                                      #19
                                      We've looked into the future and determined that anyone who tries to sue VISA will end up like the owner of Globill!

                                      Here is a pic of the last few people who tried to sue VISA

                                      Comment

                                      • mrthumbs
                                        salad tossing sig guy
                                        • Apr 2002
                                        • 11702

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by GrimShawn
                                        We've looked into the future and determined that anyone who tries to sue VISA will end up like the owner of Globill!

                                        Here is a pic of the last few people who tried to sue VISA

                                        yess

                                        Comment

                                        • rowan
                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                          • Mar 2002
                                          • 17393

                                          #21
                                          It's good to see a company have the guts to take on Visa, but I really wish they would pay their webmasters first.

                                          Comment

                                          • sexeducation
                                            So Fucking Banned
                                            • Jun 2003
                                            • 7315

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Fabien
                                            PSW to sue VISA/Master

                                            .... [TEXT DELETED] ....

                                            He said PSW decided to challenge Visa and MasterCard at once because they were "all identical, doing the same thing. So, here we go.

                                            "I honestly think the adult Internet industry should rally behind us," he continued, "because it's not about PSW. In the present environment, any billing company or webmaster can step out of this business or be forced to shut down. The fact is, if we don't stop them, what will happen if they drop the rate another half point? With friendly fraud so rampant, who will be able to stay in compliance, or in business for that matter? We have said ?enough is enough? and are ready to go to bat for our entire industry."
                                            Having experienced the indirect result of the "Visa" squeeze for more then a year now it seems ...

                                            IMO - Visa sees an opportunity for growth.
                                            Their going to force everyone (adult websites) to be absolutely squeaky clean. Meaning - "No aroused genitals or reproductive bodily fluids on any directly accessed domain name" and STRICT 2257 compliance - everywhere. Claiming without "accountability" for content - the transaction is "high risk".

                                            I doubt the adult industry being as cut-throat as it is could organize anything.

                                            Visa has been walking in week after week.

                                            I TRULY wish you luck.
                                            And I will sign up with your program for the new emerging SexEducation.com website - to support your cause.
                                            (Like I have with PayCom.net - "ePASSPORTe.com".

                                            IMO - Third party processors (with good reps) must exist or how will the the single mother of two - be able to process her "live cam" shows.

                                            This amounts to prohibition and is forcing many to "prostitution"??????

                                            Without any - CLEARLY STATED - Adult Verification Services (AVS's) - how can adults have reasonable access to the information age?

                                            I should have come to GFY - months ago to learn what I have in the last few months.

                                            Comment

                                            • wizz
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Jun 2003
                                              • 634

                                              #23
                                              Interesting to see how this goes on!
                                              SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

                                              Comment

                                              • sexeducation
                                                So Fucking Banned
                                                • Jun 2003
                                                • 7315

                                                #24
                                                ADDENDUM -
                                                Claiming without "accountability" for content - the transaction is litigation wise - "high risk" - FOR MANY MONTHS - possibley years.

                                                Comment

                                                • tomax
                                                  Registered User
                                                  • Mar 2003
                                                  • 95

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Kimmykim


                                                  The difference between third party aggregators and the Visa/MC class created IPSPs is like the difference between hamburger and filet mignon.

                                                  I would suggest you brush up on your 'history of the audiotext' business if you want to get a real idea of what is happening and where it will most likely end up.
                                                  I will take your suggestion and read up on audiotext.

                                                  But Epoch is an IPSP and they are suing Mastercard.

                                                  PSW is an IPSP and they are suing both Visa and Mastercard.

                                                  So clearly the "filet mignon" of the industry feel that they are under fundamental attack by the card associations.

                                                  It does not seem to be a difference between hamburger and filet mignon. Visa and Mastercard have gone vegetarian. They don't like red meat. Period.

                                                  Again, I am not being pessimist or negative. I am being realist. I hope PSW and Epoch win but they most likely won't. And then what?
                                                  Last edited by tomax; 09-10-2003, 01:08 PM.
                                                  tomax

                                                  Comment

                                                  • NBDesign
                                                    Confirmed User
                                                    • Jan 2003
                                                    • 5814

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Cassie


                                                    here we have a double edge sword. the govt needs to regulate this HOWEVER do we really want the govt, with it's current administration, regulating anything we do???

                                                    at this point, you would have a better chance of winning the power ball then proper and FAIR govt regulation
                                                    Very true... but what else is there?

                                                    If the average person has no chance in hell of winning a lawsuit against these people, and we want the government out of this and our lives.. then they have total control to do what they want to who they want for what ever reason they decide to give.

                                                    Granted I am still real new in all this, shit, I just got my 1st paysite up Monday.. but this shit scares the hell out of me.... as it stands now... one person can cause me enough damage to shut me down.... No way in hell I can afford these charge back fees... especially when they can get several months back and I get charges 100.00 for each of those months... that is totally unfair.

                                                    Personally, I am hopeing for the best.... I am keeping my sites clean and very to the point... I am not misleading my members (or future members) into thinking there is something more than there is to my sites. Plus... my site(s) are (will be) cheap... easier for someone to accept a 10 - 20 dollar loss than a 30 -40 dollar one. On the bad side... 8.95 is not a lot with a 100.00 charge back fee...

                                                    It is time for a change... that is all I can say... either in court, by govt. reg.s or Visa just coming clean and admitting what they are doing to the merchant is wrong and fixing their own policy... what ever the case... something needs to be done.

                                                    PSW... you have my 100% support and if there is anything I can do... let me know....

                                                    Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic.


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                                                    Comment

                                                    • Platinum Dave
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Mar 2001
                                                      • 2441

                                                      #27
                                                      One problem I see is that by the time this trial comes to a decision if it gets that far PSW billing may be out of business and wont be able to continue.

                                                      PSW my hats off to you... were all in your corner.


                                                      Check out Adult Rental - Only Pay Per Signup VOD!

                                                      Comment

                                                      • sexeducation
                                                        So Fucking Banned
                                                        • Jun 2003
                                                        • 7315

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by tomax


                                                        I will take your suggestion and read up on audiotext.

                                                        But Epoch is an IPSP and they are suing Mastercard.

                                                        PSW is an IPSP and they are suing both Visa and Mastercard.

                                                        So clearly the "filet mignon" of the industry feel that they are under fundamental attack by the card associations.

                                                        It does not seem to be a difference between hamburger and filet mignon. Visa and Mastercard have gone vegetarian. They don't like red meat. Period.

                                                        Again, I am not being pessimist or negative. I am being realist. I hope PSW and Epoch win but they most likely won't. And then what?
                                                        I am not familiar with PSW but Epoch ("ePASSPORTe.com") is fundamental to freedom of speech.

                                                        SexEducation.com has been 100% anonymous since inception.

                                                        I don't want to know who comes to my site - because it must be like buying a "newspaper" off the street.

                                                        You must be able to get your "news" freely without being watched or we become an "Iraqi" situation.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • SleazyDream
                                                          I'm here for SPORT
                                                          • Jul 2001
                                                          • 41470

                                                          #29
                                                          even though justified lawsuits like this will end us all.
                                                          This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog!

                                                          Now read without the word dog.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Gunni
                                                            Confirmed User
                                                            • Apr 2003
                                                            • 2385

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Cassie
                                                            two points to be made here,

                                                            1. yes psw is standing up for the industry and that is to be commended!

                                                            2. however, if they do win does anyone think of the reprecusions of this action? visa and mastercard could effectively stop processing for all adult merchants and in retrospect, hurt mainstream businesses as well by dropping the percentage even more to make up for lost income.

                                                            every cause has an affect.
                                                            Maybe the best thing that could happen to the industrie would be no CC! People wouldn't stop buying porn, and we wouldn't have to bloody worry all the time about what Visa was going to do next, no chargebacks, no refunds, seems pretty nice

                                                            Comment

                                                            • sexeducation
                                                              So Fucking Banned
                                                              • Jun 2003
                                                              • 7315

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by SleazyDream
                                                              even though justified lawsuits like this will end us all.
                                                              Not following you SleazyDream ...
                                                              What do you mean?

                                                              Comment

                                                              • gothweb
                                                                Confirmed User
                                                                • Jun 2002
                                                                • 8849

                                                                #32
                                                                Here's the question...

                                                                Is this David trying to take down Goliath, in an heroic and selfless move to make the world a better place for all of us?

                                                                Or a piddly little biller creating a lawsuit they know they can't win, so they have an excuse why they won't be paying people when they go under?

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                                                                Comment

                                                                • Pornkings
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Oct 2002
                                                                  • 5334

                                                                  #33
                                                                  the adult industry needs to show how many mainstream companies profit from adult content.

                                                                  Cable companies with pay per view
                                                                  Hotel companies with pay per view
                                                                  Phone companies with audio text/ phone sex.
                                                                  etc.

                                                                  so many fortune 500 companies make billions off this industry in one shape or form

                                                                  including Visa and mastercard.

                                                                  the way I see it. they are all porn peddlers if they make any money off of adult content.

                                                                  what needs to be done is cleaning the free shit up and people will have to pay for it. which will lower charbacks etc.
                                                                  and keep kids from viewing it.

                                                                  I don't see hilton hotels, or At&t giving it away free

                                                                  how many fortune 500 companies can you name who profit off adult content.?

                                                                  we need to start associating ourselves with these companies and not let the press give a negative spin and associate us with the illegal aspect of the industry that none of us condone or are a part of.
                                                                  Last edited by Pornkings; 09-10-2003, 01:58 PM.
                                                                  Pornkings.com

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                                                                  • NBDesign
                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                    • Jan 2003
                                                                    • 5814

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by gothweb
                                                                    Here's the question...

                                                                    Is this David trying to take down Goliath, in an heroic and selfless move to make the world a better place for all of us?

                                                                    Or a piddly little biller creating a lawsuit they know they can't win, so they have an excuse why they won't be paying people when they go under?
                                                                    or both... starting out with good intensions, and an excuse if it does not work.

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                                                                    • Cassie
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Mar 2003
                                                                      • 3139

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by NBDesign


                                                                      Very true... but what else is there?

                                                                      If the average person has no chance in hell of winning a lawsuit against these people, and we want the government out of this and our lives.. then they have total control to do what they want to who they want for what ever reason they decide to give.

                                                                      Granted I am still real new in all this, shit, I just got my 1st paysite up Monday.. but this shit scares the hell out of me.... as it stands now... one person can cause me enough damage to shut me down.... No way in hell I can afford these charge back fees... especially when they can get several months back and I get charges 100.00 for each of those months... that is totally unfair.

                                                                      Personally, I am hopeing for the best.... I am keeping my sites clean and very to the point... I am not misleading my members (or future members) into thinking there is something more than there is to my sites. Plus... my site(s) are (will be) cheap... easier for someone to accept a 10 - 20 dollar loss than a 30 -40 dollar one. On the bad side... 8.95 is not a lot with a 100.00 charge back fee...

                                                                      It is time for a change... that is all I can say... either in court, by govt. reg.s or Visa just coming clean and admitting what they are doing to the merchant is wrong and fixing their own policy... what ever the case... something needs to be done.

                                                                      PSW... you have my 100% support and if there is anything I can do... let me know....
                                                                      i know what you mean.....

                                                                      i was in that situation a few years ago when amex bailed. amex bailing was no biggie in retrospect however, i (as i am sure many others) knew that was just the beginning.

                                                                      i do highly suggest you take what money you can from what you make from this and invest it in property; multi family housing always works for you will always have someone paying your mortgage. open a business; just have something to fall back on for if the quiet rumors i hear are true, we will all see a major shake up in this industry and those who thought they were untouchable, well that just wont be the case. in a year, 2 tops, this is going to be a revamped industry and if the strong survive, it will be like the gold rush all over again.

                                                                      keep at it and you will do fine
                                                                      ICQ: 309756847
                                                                      ]

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                                                                      • 12clicks
                                                                        Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                                        • Jan 2001
                                                                        • 19814

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by SunTzu



                                                                        Yes, no way they could win....

                                                                        Don't remember the tiny company called MCI vs. AT&T?
                                                                        witty response. sadly it has no bearing on reality.
                                                                        I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

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                                                                        • NBDesign
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Jan 2003
                                                                          • 5814

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Cassie


                                                                          i know what you mean.....

                                                                          i was in that situation a few years ago when amex bailed. amex bailing was no biggie in retrospect however, i (as i am sure many others) knew that was just the beginning.

                                                                          i do highly suggest you take what money you can from what you make from this and invest it in property; multi family housing always works for you will always have someone paying your mortgage. open a business; just have something to fall back on for if the quiet rumors i hear are true, we will all see a major shake up in this industry and those who thought they were untouchable, well that just wont be the case. in a year, 2 tops, this is going to be a revamped industry and if the strong survive, it will be like the gold rush all over again.

                                                                          keep at it and you will do fine
                                                                          Rumors... oh shit... I'm starting to worry... Should I?

                                                                          Man... what to do next if this does not work or I get bumped out by these corporations and their stuipd rules...

                                                                          I am so burnt on mainstream design that is why I am getting in to this side of things... I really want to produce... you know, take the photos, videos and shit.... I really want to have others doing my design so I can get away from this computer once and a while...

                                                                          Maybe a mechanic... there will always be a need for one of those in the brave new society that our leaders are building... lol

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                                                                          • Fabien
                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                            • Jul 2003
                                                                            • 4789

                                                                            #38
                                                                            How about getting A HUGE case against them ?
                                                                            Like you/me/them (1500+ webmasters.........)

                                                                            Maybe it would have an impact ?

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                                                                            • Amputate Your Head
                                                                              There can be only one
                                                                              • Aug 2001
                                                                              • 39075

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Fabien
                                                                              How about getting A HUGE case against them ?
                                                                              Like you/me/them (1500+ webmasters.........)

                                                                              Maybe it would have an impact ?
                                                                              the only impact happening will be Visa laying the gloved pimp backhand down on it's bitch, the porn industry.
                                                                              SIG TOO BIG

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                                                                              • Kimmykim
                                                                                bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                                                                • Jun 2001
                                                                                • 16015

                                                                                #40
                                                                                [QUOTE]Originally posted by tomax
                                                                                I will take your suggestion and read up on audiotext.

                                                                                But Epoch is an IPSP and they are suing Mastercard.

                                                                                PSW is an IPSP and they are suing both Visa and Mastercard.

                                                                                So clearly the "filet mignon" of the industry feel that they are under fundamental attack by the card associations.

                                                                                It does not seem to be a difference between hamburger and filet mignon. Visa and Mastercard have gone vegetarian. They don't like red meat. Period.

                                                                                Again, I am not being pessimist or negative. I am being realist. I hope PSW and Epoch win but they most likely won't. And then what?
                                                                                [/QUOTE

                                                                                I would certainly hope you take my suggestion, you'll find some serious answers if you do I think.

                                                                                I have no idea what the details are on the PSW situation, I may in fact, know a bit about the Paycom suit, especially since I've read all the filing etc.

                                                                                Visa and Mastercard don't like each other, perhaps you were unaware of that? They do not do the same specific things, they each have their own governing association body, even though they share nearly all the same members.

                                                                                Why do you think that PSW or Epoch needs to win any such suit? All they have to do is reach a satisfactory settlement for themselves, why in the hell would they be worried about the rest of this industry? I'm not saying they don't, just making a simple comment about what *I* would do in their shoes.

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                                                                                • JDog
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Feb 2003
                                                                                  • 7453

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  That is fucking great news. I'm fucking tired of Visa pushing all these smaller companies outta business. It's bullshit!

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                                                                                  • NBDesign
                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                    • Jan 2003
                                                                                    • 5814

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Why do you think that PSW or Epoch needs to win any such suit? All they have to do is reach a satisfactory settlement for themselves, why in the hell would they be worried about the rest of this industry? I'm not saying they don't, just making a simple comment about what *I* would do in their shoes.
                                                                                    True Kimmy, I would probally look out for myself first too... however, if they should win (and I hope they do), it would set a precedence for the rest of us and maybe we would have a better chance against them ourselves with a win under our belt. Granted the situation would have to be just right.. but many of lawsuits were won by the 1st guy standing up for their rights.

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                                                                                    • geps
                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                      • Feb 2003
                                                                                      • 196

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by GrimShawn
                                                                                      We've looked into the future and determined that anyone who tries to sue VISA will end up like the owner of Globill!

                                                                                      Here is a pic of the last few people who tried to sue VISA

                                                                                      Brazilian Content Producer
                                                                                      ICQ: 64788331
                                                                                      In the biz since 2001

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                                                                                      • Kimmykim
                                                                                        bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                                                                        • Jun 2001
                                                                                        • 16015

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by NBDesign


                                                                                        True Kimmy, I would probally look out for myself first too... however, if they should win (and I hope they do), it would set a precedence for the rest of us and maybe we would have a better chance against them ourselves with a win under our belt. Granted the situation would have to be just right.. but many of lawsuits were won by the 1st guy standing up for their rights.
                                                                                        A sealed settlement does not make a precedent. As a matter of fact neither party will probably want it out what was decided...

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                                                                                        • Lane
                                                                                          Will code for food...
                                                                                          • Apr 2001
                                                                                          • 8496

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Maybe they wanna eliminate all ISPS's before estabilishing their own online processing systems

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • NBDesign
                                                                                            Confirmed User
                                                                                            • Jan 2003
                                                                                            • 5814

                                                                                            #46
                                                                                            Originally posted by Kimmykim

                                                                                            A sealed settlement does not make a precedent. As a matter of fact neither party will probably want it out what was decided...
                                                                                            Well then that just plain sucks...

                                                                                            Let's hope for something better. My fingers are crossed.

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                                                                                            • Kimmykim
                                                                                              bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                                                                              • Jun 2001
                                                                                              • 16015

                                                                                              #47
                                                                                              Originally posted by Lane
                                                                                              Maybe they wanna eliminate all ISPS's before estabilishing their own online processing systems
                                                                                              Why in the world would they want to have to keep up with thousands of websites and hundreds of accounts on their own? It's so much easier for them to control the market successfully and efficiently if there are only so many points of the market they need to be concerned with...

                                                                                              Comment

                                                                                              • Paul Markham
                                                                                                Too old to care
                                                                                                • Jun 2001
                                                                                                • 52942

                                                                                                #48
                                                                                                The whole problem we are now suffering with CC processing started with Visa/MC. They allowed banks to give out the ability to third party processors, Who could do much as they liked so long as they kept within the financial rules.

                                                                                                Now there is the knee jerk reaction from Visa, lowering CB to 1% and closing down or restricting companies with unworkable rules. They should have realised the business they were coming into, Internet CC processing. Which is open to fraud and sites with illegal material or plain rip off sites. How long did it take for them to catch Crescent and their rip off site?

                                                                                                For years people were alllowed to do much as they liked and now there is a mad rush to mend the situation.

                                                                                                What can we do as an industry to combat it? We could find an alternative system, unfortunately Epassporte is a joke and an expensive one, Stormpay I do not know about.

                                                                                                But what about the idustry approaching a credit card company like "Discovery" and negotiating a realistic terms of business and rates. Then we just start telling people that from such and such a date we will only be taking Discovery cards or giving these guys a better rate. I use Discovery as an example.

                                                                                                This will put Visa/MC on guard, they do not want to see a minor player suddenly grow by 2 million users.

                                                                                                As for charge backs, well if Visa will not do something about the guy who charges back then the industry has to. Sharing the credit card numbers of people who charge back more than once and banning them. But it seems very unfair that Visa admit 85% is "Friendly Fraud" and then penalise for it. Where did this figure come from?



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                                                                                                • NBDesign
                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                  • Jan 2003
                                                                                                  • 5814

                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                  Originally posted by charly
                                                                                                  But it seems very unfair that Visa admit 85% is "Friendly Fraud" and then penalise for it.
                                                                                                  "Friendly Fraud" lol what a fucking joke....

                                                                                                  I don't understand why the merchant is the one who has to pay the price for fraud if they are not fradulent in their business practice. They should target the person who committed the fraud and not an innocent party.

                                                                                                  Man, I just wanted to get into tis business and have some fun, meet some new friends and make a few $$$ in the process... this is starting to be more stress than mainstream was for me...

                                                                                                  Always the few bad ones that spoil it for the rest of us...
                                                                                                  Last edited by NBDesign; 09-10-2003, 10:06 PM.

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                                                                                                  • NETbilling
                                                                                                    Confirmed User
                                                                                                    • Jan 2002
                                                                                                    • 8598

                                                                                                    #50
                                                                                                    Originally posted by NBDesign


                                                                                                    "Friendly Fraud" lol what a fucking joke....

                                                                                                    I don't understand why the merchant is the one who has to pay the price for fraud if they are not fradulent in their business practice. They should target the person who committed the fraud and not an innocent party.

                                                                                                    Man, I just wanted to get into tis business and have some fun, meet some new friends and make a few $$$ in the process... this is starting to be more stress than mainstream was for me...

                                                                                                    Always the few bad ones that spoil it for the rest of us...
                                                                                                    There is no clear understanding as to why Visa and Mastercard do what they do.
                                                                                                    What you should know is that they are out to protect their "brand" and their card users (the consumer). Also understand that the majority of the banks on the Visa and Mastercard board are card issuers.

                                                                                                    That sums it up.

                                                                                                    Mitch


                                                                                                    Mitch Farber
                                                                                                    CEO - NETbilling, Inc.
                                                                                                    Email / Phone: 888-357-8166 / 661-252-2456
                                                                                                    Transaction processing & 24/7 call center services with exceptional rates and flexibility, since 1998!

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