100 reasons to fight acacia.
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100 reasons to fight acacia. -
something along these lines? http://www.portcommodore.com/commodo.../bbsfiles.html
http://www.portcommodore.com/commodore/bbs/slrinfo.html
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sure did, I know someone that wrote a Scale program back in the 80's ran on a apple think it ran in 10k or around there, I was using modem's in the early 80's to do online maint. used Remote2 (think that was the name) a CrossTalk product.Originally posted by goBigtime
Did mac's have modems in 1991?
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Oh... I was being sarcasticOriginally posted by jimmyf
sure did, I know someone that wrote a Scale program back in the 80's ran on a apple think it ran in 10k or around there, I was using modem's in the early 80's to do online maint. used Remote2 (think that was the name) a CrossTalk product.
My dad had an Apple IIe with a modem in the mid 80's I think it was.
I used to bust into the (locked) computer room to play this game:
I had intellivision or atari or something at the time.. but nothign compared to that game & being in the 'off limits' computer room
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I was using pkzip in the 80's and haveOriginally posted by freeadultcontent
Assfairy, look up pkzip before windows got it. Its been around forever.
dos version dated. I still use'm sometimes
pkzip 7/29/90
pkunzip 3/16/90
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Yo, FreeAdultContent..
Get ahold of me.. I have a copy of AAPlay from Auto Desk..
Copyright 1990-1991
the formats you should be looking at are:
*.flc; *.fli; *.rle; *.dib; *.bmp
ICQ me at 84700583 if you want a copy of this shit...
MediaI'm here for the violence!Comment
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Oh, I also have a copy of QuickFLI for Dos, it has the time stamps in the zip of 7/22/1989
That shit right there proves that ACACIA is pretty much full of shit no???
MediaI'm here for the violence!Comment
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Let's not confuse animation and downloading with streaming. Streaming means you can see something AS it is being downloaded, not after. And I don't believe (could be mistaken) the old FLIC files could stream ... however ...
That said, something more positive to contribute: I do believe RIP (Remote Imaging Protocol) and RIPTERM might count. True they were vector-based and not movies in the "photographic" definition of a movie, but then cartoons (and drawings) are movies too. And I believe RIPTERM allowed you to see things "draw" *during* download. That would therefore be considered streaming.
Here's some links, circa 1992-1993. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...RIP+TelegrafixComment
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Dravyk!!!
Yes man!!!! Rip was streaming!!! There used to be animated rips, I believe ACiD did some, and also, there were animaged ansi graphics, made with thedraw, the images changed as data was pulled, abstract, however it is streaming data making pictures..
Damn.. I know of a place to get the old packs too.. I just gotta find it...
Im not sure what the dates are on the animations, might be after the dates we are looking to beat..
MediaI'm here for the violence!Comment
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I hope were not reaching to far here by including animations into the equation...
It doesn't matter I don't think. It would just be the difference of a 4" stack of prior art examples, vs a 24" stack.
Remember in the original inventors own words from the main patents abstract it sais:
.....The compressed and encoded audio and/or video information is sent over standard telephone, cable or satellite broadcast channels to a receiver specified by a subscriber of the service, preferably in less than real time, for later playback and optional recording on standard audio and/or video tape
Most of these computers we are talking about here... and ESPECIALLY Amiga, which is why I am focusing on that, had options available for audio/video out (for recording on standard audio and/or video tape) - in addition to the compressed audio and/or video being sent over standard telephone lines (via modems).
Everything else aside, I think that whole abstract on their main/base patent can be ripped to shreds by prior _commercialized_ art. I don't know how significant that is though (vs debunking the actual claims of the patent) I'm sure its worth something thought.
Also I'd like to hear from FAR-L or the guys at F&R what exactly they would like us to find for them. What exactly will help them build their case. And if being able to debunk the main patent is only half the battle, or or if the other patents would still have weight.Comment
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So do this affect all cable TV and satelite transmission? I mean, cable tv broadcasts a compressed signal, there cable box (or even cable ready tv) picks up the signal, and the signal is less than real time (there are micro-seconds or even seconds there (satelite definately has a delay). If my memory serves me right, cable tv was around before this patent.
Here's the abstract from patent #5,132,992 -- their main patent. :
A system of distributing video and/or audio information employs digital signal processing to achieve high rates of data compression. The compressed and encoded audio and/or video information is sent over standard telephone, cable or satellite broadcast channels to a receiver specified by a subscriber of the service, preferably in less than real time, for later playback and optional recording on standard audio and/or video tape. [/B]Selfpleasure.com for sale on auction. Closes on Tuesday March 11th at 9pm PST!!!!
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Nope I think their claim is to on demand type of stuff such as your pay per view that would be stored and you could view whenever you want. So right now internet streaming is an on demand service but typical cable service isn't yet because you can't pick what you want when you want and view it and save it. Devices like TIVO are approaching this and the intergration with your cable company so it won't be long.Originally posted by malakajoe
So do this affect all cable TV and satelite transmission? I mean, cable tv broadcasts a compressed signal, there cable box (or even cable ready tv) picks up the signal, and the signal is less than real time (there are micro-seconds or even seconds there (satelite definately has a delay). If my memory serves me right, cable tv was around before this patent.Comment
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Tivo is already integrate with DirectTv and ReplayTV with DishNetwork.Originally posted by Digipimp
Nope I think their claim is to on demand type of stuff such as your pay per view that would be stored and you could view whenever you want. So right now internet streaming is an on demand service but typical cable service isn't yet because you can't pick what you want when you want and view it and save it. Devices like TIVO are approaching this and the intergration with your cable company so it won't be long.
Lets see them take those guys on.Selfpleasure.com for sale on auction. Closes on Tuesday March 11th at 9pm PST!!!!
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I want to know how they got a patent issued in only a year. I have two pending patents. I've been told that the whole process should take 3-4 years. Is it possible that they filed their provisionals or non-provisionals as far back as 1988? This of course would void most of this thread. I'm not a patent attorney but I don't think the provisionals would be mentioned in the patent that you can view online. Can someone verify?Regards,
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Anyone remember old old Java Applet's that would do a JPEG push?
I do not remember the applet name and stuff but it used to be downloadable from somthing like gamalink, or gamlink.
That was a long time ago though.
Basically one would upload a sequence of jpeg images
then the applet would play back to the end user in the sequence of jpg frames.
I am certain it was around the advent of JAVA when SUN Micro released its first version of the JDK.
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NopeOriginally posted by Rick Latona
Is it possible that they filed their provisionals or non-provisionals as far back as 1988?
We can thank Slick Willie Clinton for the provisional patent (patent pending) process -- which became available in 1995.Comment
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I'm pretty sure that this threads original focus -- downloading the older movie formats from the membership based BBS's and dialup services (qlink?) of the mid 80's through early 90's is all we need.
We've got modems, ~5-10 of different file formats and compression methods, movie players, all commercially available doing exactly what the original patent covers -- well before the patent was assigned.
Not it all just needs to be cleaned up and taken to court.
I think it would be a great idea to actually bring in this old technology (that existed before the patent) and demonstrate via a null modem connection or something exactly how the whole process used to go down back in the day.
On all the different computers.. bring in some C=64's, Mac's, Amigas, XT's.. to show that it was all over the place.
Hmm... also Quantum Link (Qlink) aka AMERICA ONLINE, was around as the MEGA-BBS of that time starting in 1985 through 1990 or so no? I'm sure some of these file formats were available through them as well.Last edited by goBigtime; 07-07-2003, 10:06 PM.Comment
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Wanna know why I'm the llama's shiznit? I knew being a nerd in high school would pay off someday. MY TIME HAS COME!
GRASP was originally created by Microtext Incorporated of Irvine, CA. It was bought in 1988 by Paul Mace software, where it is maintained today. Information on GRASP and GRASP Multimedia may be obtained directly from Paul Mace Software:
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BBS: 503-482-7435
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http://netghost.narod.ru/gff/graphics/summary/fli.htm
http://protovision.textfiles.com/computers/alt-bin.txt - This one I find EXCELLENT. And I quote: Usually, .GL files are huge, so people often compress them with one of several popular compression/archiving packages. Perhaps the most common is the PC family's PKZIP package.
Need another witness? Patrick Naughton at Sun Microsystems sounds good: http://ftp.rge.com/pub/X/X11R5/contrib/xgrasp.README
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Oh, and by the way, I was a QuantumLink BETA TESTER in the 80's - I was one of the first 25 people ever on AOL even before it was AOL.
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They should fucking do away with patents for shit that they aren't fucking creating anyway. The purpose of a patent was not so that you could come up with a fucking idea and expect it to be used in the future , but never actually create any technology yourself. Their patent should be void in that it's just an developed idea and in fact an idea that was already in use before they patented it. Fucking assholes, I hope this shit goes to the supreme court and puts those bitches in their place.Comment
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Thanks mikeOriginally posted by VirtuMike
Hope all this helps. BUY MY CONTENT and send me all your traffic.
King VirtuMike
Alot of the stuff you mentioned has been covered in the thread already, but I can't mess with you too much cause I'm a major thread-skimmer myself sometimes.
Comment
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I dont have much to add BUT I do want to say you guys are doing a good thing, this type of grunt work is needed for sure, at least to show that we as a industry will fight tooth and nail
I remember we bought a "toaster" for our amiga when I was doing some TV spots here locally. we use it to load the footage and place the text and effects into it. I dont remember all the details but it was a nice piece of equipment back in the early 90's for video work.
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Don't make no difference DOS can use the "pipe" command to play the movie as its downloading from the web, its no different to reading the data from your hard drive (just a bit slower)Originally posted by Dravyk
Let's not confuse animation and downloading with streaming. Streaming means you can see something AS it is being downloaded, not after. And I don't believe (could be mistaken) the old FLIC files could stream ... however ...
That said, something more positive to contribute: I do believe RIP (Remote Imaging Protocol) and RIPTERM might count. True they were vector-based and not movies in the "photographic" definition of a movie, but then cartoons (and drawings) are movies too. And I believe RIPTERM allowed you to see things "draw" *during* download. That would therefore be considered streaming.
Here's some links, circa 1992-1993. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...RIP+TelegrafixI sale lubeComment
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Originally posted by Digipimp
They should fucking do away with patents for shit that they aren't fucking creating anyway. The purpose of a patent was not so that you could come up with a fucking idea and expect it to be used in the future , but never actually create any technology yourself. Their patent should be void in that it's just an developed idea and in fact an idea that was already in use before they patented it. Fucking assholes, I hope this shit goes to the supreme court and puts those bitches in their place.
What's even better than that is that no one in acacia came up with these ideas. These patents were bought. A handful of guys got together and said, "Hey, if we buy these patents from these people we can tie theme all together and claim infringement from everyone selling video."
Most of the patents weren't written about the internet at all. These were aimed at the Bells and at cable companies. It is just pure subversion of the concept of intellectual property law that brings us to this sad place.
What they saw they needed was a leg to stand on. A few names on dotted lines to flesh out a portfolio. Then they come in with the blatant extortion.
"We have patents. Right or wrong a law suit is going to cost you 500k. If you loose we will take everything you own. If you win, we will appeal and keep bleeding money from you. It is cheaper just to pay us to protect you from these unfortunate circumstances. "
After that as everyone knows there was only one obvious industry to go after first.
Now if that don't chap your hide....AIM - DivXVOD
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This is a great thread. The energy the webmaster community is generating in time and money are going to make a big difference. Were looking into the different prior art sources that have been listed so far. We are definitely interested in any art that existed prior to 1991.
If you have any questions feel free to contact me directly at 949-716-8080 or [email protected].Comment
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Not to bring this into a different area, actually almost keeping same theme. Just not sure of the precise dates or names so hoping one of you can do a little refreshing of my noggin.
I remember a door game, very graphic intensive cartoons that were animation. Several games came from this company, one was a risk style game, and one took place in a post nuke scenerio. I belive it was called land of devastation.
The user had a player (decoder) that they would have to download. The BBS had the game. As his warrior moved about the land and fought he would watch the cartoons of the action which was "streamed".
Anyone remember this? The Company? The Game? The Date of release?Comment
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i played lord and tradewarsOriginally posted by freeadultcontent
Not to bring this into a different area, actually almost keeping same theme. Just not sure of the precise dates or names so hoping one of you can do a little refreshing of my noggin.
I remember a door game, very graphic intensive cartoons that were animation. Several games came from this company, one was a risk style game, and one took place in a post nuke scenerio. I belive it was called land of devastation.
The user had a player (decoder) that they would have to download. The BBS had the game. As his warrior moved about the land and fought he would watch the cartoons of the action which was "streamed".
Anyone remember this? The Company? The Game? The Date of release?
there were ansi animations and rip animations through telegard/renegade/wwiv and all the other main board software though for sure
i cosysoped a couple of real ereet bbses here in the 719 code(not as far back as late 80s- super early 90s, more 94-96ish) and i know that terminate had support for all of that stuff
not sure on the earlier versions of term software but rip and ansi are definately not recent standards by any meansComment
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No not talking about either of those door games. These were a great deal more graphicaly intensive. They did not deal in ASCII graphics at all.Originally posted by ytcracker
i played lord and tradewars
there were ansi animations and rip animations through telegard/renegade/wwiv and all the other main board software though for sure
i cosysoped a couple of real ereet bbses here in the 719 code(not as far back as late 80s- super early 90s, more 94-96ish) and i know that terminate had support for all of that stuff
not sure on the earlier versions of term software but rip and ansi are definately not recent standards by any means
The two games you speak of I knew well (who does not) and they just were text based for the most part.Comment
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yea i know what youre talking about - my apologies i was just noting an aside.Originally posted by freeadultcontent
No not talking about either of those door games. These were a great deal more graphicaly intensive. They did not deal in ASCII graphics at all.
The two games you speak of I knew well (who does not) and they just were text based for the most part.
i can hit up some of my older geek friends on the subject - i assume you are talking about color cutscenes and things of that nature for "streaming" purposes.
i am in full agreement that these things existed - hell, there were even adult door games with those criteria. i'll put my ear to the ground.Comment
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Something along those lines. It may have just used some version of RIP but I do not recall it doing so.Originally posted by ytcracker
yea i know what youre talking about - my apologies i was just noting an aside.
i can hit up some of my older geek friends on the subject - i assume you are talking about color cutscenes and things of that nature for "streaming" purposes.
i am in full agreement that these things existed - hell, there were even adult door games with those criteria. i'll put my ear to the ground.Comment
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Got to love google.
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Then go with history.
Hopefully that posts.
Basics of what it says just in case.
Land of Devastation was originally a BBS door game. I keep lousy records, but I believe I started the project some time in 1990 and the final version seemed to be released in mid 1996. A few general properties of LOD and BBS door games in general:
Multi-Player, Single-User (MPSU). Although the game was designed for multiple people to be involved, only one person could play at a time. Each person was given a certain amount of time (i.e. an hour) to make their moves and then another person could play. You could fight other players, but only after they had logged off. Hence and offline player's character had to be played by the computer.
Slow Baud Rates. Most BBS systems had a modem at 9600 baud or slower. Near the end of the BBS era, we got as high as 19.2kbaud or even 28.8, but about the time that happened, BBS systems and door games were abandoned in favor of the Internet.
Graphical Terminal. LOD was one of the very first games to use a graphical terminal program. Most BBS games used simple ANSI/VT102 terminal emulation consisting of line characters and 16-color text. LOD included a SVGA terminal program that supported 256 colors in a resolution of 800x600. Although LOD had graphics, it was still a a hybrid between a graphical game and a text game.
Music. Most BBS door games were stuck with only the simple ASCII BEEP character as their single audio capability. However, LOD had a custom musical score written for it. This required use of the graphical terminal program. Music was composed in the MOD format and supported four simultaneous voices.
Memory Limitations. Most BBS programs were run under DOS, which suffered from a 640KB memory limitation. With BBS overhead, drivers, and TSR's, LOD had to run reliably in about 520KB of memory. The executable code alone which comprised LOD was about 450KB. It had to be overlaid in order to fit.
Some Statistics and other information:
There are some 1620 paid registered sysops of the original Land Of Devastation. I promised them registration for life, and yes, they will be granted free registration to the new NETLOD.
The final LOD distribution archives exceed 5 megabytes of compressed ZIP files. Quite large for a BBS game.
LOD was written in Borland Pascal/Turbo Pascal, a very popular pascal compiler for DOS systems. Although it was great for DOS, it doomed Classic LOD from ever being run in the Unix environment. (NETLOD will be written in C++)
Executables for LOD were eventually released for Windows and OS/2 in addition to DOS.Comment
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My thoughts.
Beta 1990: pre patent, I did have it up then so it was workable just had bugs.
Multi-player, given an amount of time: Users dialed in to get immediate access- hence on demand. Door games often used credits which were earned and or paid for in order to play games).
SVGA terminal program that supported 256 colors in a resolution of 800x600: Does not sound like it was animation now does it? Could you record at this level, you bet.
Music was composed in the MOD format and supported four simultaneous voices: Hmmm Music compression and delivery.
Any thoughts?
Opps forgot, users did have to download a terminal (aka player) in order to play this game.
So on my BBS for instance. We offered limited credits for doors, additional credits could be purchased. This door was available on demand for a fee (credits). It streamed SVGA graphics at 800x600 resolution, and had compressed music and voices streamed with it.Last edited by freeadultcontent; 07-08-2003, 04:00 PM.Comment
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AssFairy can you contact me. [email protected]Originally posted by AssFairy
hehe cool
I got the 1985 version of Grasp up and running, its playing a 1986 animation in CGA
things have com a fair way since then
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This has to be one of the best threads on GFY. I've learned more about old school bbs' and how the internet worked in 1 hour from everyone, than I knew in my life.
Thanks to all you guys and gals that have stepped it up.
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Just a quick point, Acacia may be watching the boards. I would rather people call me with what you have found in the way of Prior Art. 949-716-8080Comment
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Opps sorry Spike, when I started the thread it was well questions about prior work and bbs's. Without it being public it never would have gathered as much info as it had without the webmasters that contributed to it.
Damn fucking double edge swords.Comment
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I has an Amiga, it was a beautiful machine - but when I got porn for it, you ordered a 3.5 disk out of the back of AmigaUser magazine (or whatever). It came with like 30 pictures scanned from playboy.
What a fucking sweet operation that must have been...Comment
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What would be really great.. would be to find a dusty old BBS server - with all these files in place on itgramma at ix.netcom.comComment
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Here's a few...
A Brief History of Compression - Information on video
compression and transmission dating back to the 1960's:
http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~sundar/inter...e/history.html
MP3 development dates back to 1987:
http://www.mp3-mac.com/Pages/History_of_MP3.html
Here's a book reference from 1981 that sounds interesting:
You can search 20 years of Usenet archive here:Healy, D.J., and O.R. Mitchell, [1981], "Digital Video Bandwidth Compression Using Block Truncation Coding," IEEE Transactions on Communications, vol. 29, no. 12, pp. 1809-1817, December 1981.
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
They were talking about video compression in the late 1980's:
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...axy=1989&hl=enComment
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Here's a nice quote from Usenet dated 1986:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=vi...a.UUCP&rnum=39Progressive filtering methods (where low-order approximations
to a signal are successively refined) ala the work of Andrew Burt
are all the rage in video coding now. These at least provide a framework
for handling some real-time buffering concerns.
Bell Labs has, for several years, investigated an approximation to the
above short-time "filter bank" processing they call adaptive subband coding,
which their current technology can run in real-time to squeeze 64 kbps speech
to somewhat less than 10 kbps with minimal degradation. Ask alice!jj
about such, or consult the literature (IEEE Trans. Acoustics ...)
Other companies have been known to proffer video codecs with rates as
low as 56kps, with concomitant quality tradeoffs. Before its demise a couple
years back, an outfit named Compusonics claimed compression of 45 minutes
of stereo onto a 3.3 megabyte Kodak floppy disk using a pattern recognition
method whose patent was outlined in New Scientist. Their exaggerated claims
(coupled with imminent introduction of read/write optics, DAT, etc. in Japan)
no doubt contributed to its short lifespan.
Applications for compressed audio on nonmechanical media certainly
exist (e.g. in toys), and I would not be surprised to learn that music
distributors soon might download compressed audio to digital jukeboxes.
-- James A. Woods (ames!jaw)Comment
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Here's a thread from 1985...
Subject: Television over the telephone? Is it possible?
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...CP%26rnum%3D52Comment
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One type of prior art that we are looking for includes movie clips that could be downloaded from BBS's or Usenet groups prior to 1990. If you have the actual files or lists of files that were available on the various BBS's, please forward them to me. If you have the software used to decompress or run these files, please send them as well. Include information about the systems they ran on (PC, Mac, Commodore,
etc., the model, and any necessary additional hardware).
Also, if you used NExt machines or Sun workstations before 1990 to exchange video files, please let me know.Comment
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Do you have an FTP where people can upload files?
I have a copy of Libris Britannia public domain and shareware CD that has around 60MB of original graphic packages from 1980 onwards, movie makers , slideshow presentations, etc etc
I can upload it for you if you think it may be useful.I sale lubeComment
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I doubt the patnet applies to many of you anyways, I had a patent attorney go over all 5 patents and all the claims, he is sending them a letter describing why is does not apply to us.
Acacia's claims are more then what the patent is for. The patent is for a specific process.
Originally posted by crescentx
If someone can prove it existed before the "patent" - Acacia is screwed. Countersuits across the board against a company that lost $25m in sales in one year. $887K in rev in 2002 - so set the amount to $1.6m.
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wasnt the format called "grasprt"Comment
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Shemp! You came up with the name I have been bugging myself for weeks over!! lol I know we have a file named 'Mindy' or something like that with the player on a floppie somewhere. A lab aid in college told me that he first saw it and copied in 88 or so. Real grainy flick of a girl if I remember right.<center><a target="_blank" href="http://dev.datedollars.com/index.php?s=signup&aid=535&cfg=aac"><img border="0" src="http://216.130.172.224/gfy/gsig.gif" width="490" height="100"></a><br><a href="http://dev.datedollars.com/index.php?s=signup&aid=535&cfg=aac" target="_blank"><b><font face="Arial"><font color="#FF99FF"> Buy me away from Slavedriver Smokey!<br>It's May Sig Sweeps!<font></b></center>Comment
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ya it was for clips of vids and animations. do a search on it. i still have a floppy of some content. it only plays on a DOS machine tho.Originally posted by Gemini
Shemp! You came up with the name I have been bugging myself for weeks over!! lol I know we have a file named 'Mindy' or something like that with the player on a floppie somewhere. A lab aid in college told me that he first saw it and copied in 88 or so. Real grainy flick of a girl if I remember right.
update: the file was called "Mandy"
Last edited by the Shemp; 08-05-2003, 08:54 PM.Comment
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We still have DOS systems. lol I'll have to try and get the hubby to go up to the attic tomorrow and see if he can find those floppies. He thinks he has a Mindy '2' as well. But sheesh, it's been so long since either of us even messed with floppies for the most part. I bet there are a couple of thousand of them up there with the old 2-3-486s. :D<center><a target="_blank" href="http://dev.datedollars.com/index.php?s=signup&aid=535&cfg=aac"><img border="0" src="http://216.130.172.224/gfy/gsig.gif" width="490" height="100"></a><br><a href="http://dev.datedollars.com/index.php?s=signup&aid=535&cfg=aac" target="_blank"><b><font face="Arial"><font color="#FF99FF"> Buy me away from Slavedriver Smokey!<br>It's May Sig Sweeps!<font></b></center>Comment
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