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BossHawg

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#1

What happens when cross sales go away?

06-10-2003, 07:43 AM

I was just thinking the other day..

What will happen to this industry if cross sales all of a sudden were put to a halt by the processors...

The ripple effect will be HUGE

Payouts would drop pretty significantly as retention is at an all time low (granted if cross sales were gone retention would go up)...but overall payouts by the big sponsors would drop by $5 or more IMO...
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#2

06-10-2003, 08:19 AM

I have a feeling that most paysite owners on this board have problems even thinking about that scenario without shitting their pants...just an opinion.

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gothweb

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#3

06-10-2003, 08:22 AM

I would love it.

I have a few cross-sale options on my sites, but they are unchecked by default and don't generate many sales. It's just an option I wanted to give people-- join both sites, pay a little less.

For the most part, though, I think it would be great to see deceptive marketing like cross-sales that are checked by defauls go away. Likewise, stuff that screws affiliates, like cross-sales that don't credit the affiliate with the sale. Take away things like that, and honest guys like me can compete a little better.

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Hooper

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#4

06-10-2003, 08:25 AM

well dude. you want $40 per trial signup right?

cross sales, exit consoles, popunders, all that shit is what program owners have to do in this day and age to keep paying you what you demand.

hell.. even console free versions of tours pay $25 but still have cross sales on them.

imho there is nothign wrong with popunders and exit consoles as long as they dont interfere with the sale. a common misconception with persignup programs is that you are somehow entitled to a revenue share in every dollar that a program owner makes... on a revshare program hell yeah.. but on per signup? cmon bro. you gotta choose.. do you have your cake or eat it?

how much do you think a $2.99 signup is worth on it's own these days?

Last edited by Hooper; 06-10-2003, 08:27 AM.

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ldinternet

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#5

06-10-2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by BossHawg
Payouts would drop pretty significantly as retention is at an all time low (granted if cross sales were gone retention would go up)...but overall payouts by the big sponsors would drop by $5 or more IMO...

For non honest sponsors, the solution is simple.
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#6

06-10-2003, 08:29 AM

Boss Hawg you're right, the ripple effect will be HUGE, and payouts will drop by more than $5.
With cross sales gone and all the major ISP's offering pop up blockers by default, all we'll be left with is recurring.

There's so much spam out there now that a member's email address isn't worth nearly what it used to be, so that source of revenue is on the decline as well.

Its not looking good

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#7

06-10-2003, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by Hooper

how much do you think a $2.99 signup is worth on it's own these days?

15-20 bucks depending on the niche.

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jimmy3way

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#8

06-10-2003, 09:43 AM

I've actually been thinking about this issue for a while and, honestly, I don't think cross sales are going anywhere in the near future.

It's a lto of money and the surfers don't seem to mind this more than anything else we do.

I do know retention is in the toilet for a lot of sites, but then again I know a few guys who boast 3-4 month AVERAGE retention.

Well they don't really boast, lol. But some people just don't need cross sales. But when you have 50+ sites and they pretty much suck, you need every dime of initial revenue you can find.

Basically it's just two different business models.

One thing, I forgot this last detail: the Biz Markie will always prevail.
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#9

06-10-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by Lenny2

15-20 bucks depending on the niche.

I agree

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LA Mike

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#10

06-10-2003, 11:27 AM

Cross sales cant go away because if they do the overall transaction counts will drop which will raise chargeback ratios out the roof. There would have to be some sort of agreement with the credit card companies. To be honest with you I would love to see the cross sales and trials go away.

Imagine if we could all just bill our customers 20 bucks a month straight up. No dececption of any sort.
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#11

06-10-2003, 11:28 AM

I hope they do go away...some people have based their whole fuckin business model on it and to me it, isn't right in the first place...Some people do it the right way I do agree but there are is A LOT of scum out there raping the feature,this will get rid of them...if it happens of course

don't "hate" on my opinion lol

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#12

06-10-2003, 11:29 AM

Pop-up blockers will be standard in the next version of Internet Explorer, I'm sure.
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#13

06-10-2003, 11:38 AM

For all I care they can be gone tomorrow. With the mess that
some people make of it they do a lot of bad to this industry.
I understand for a lot of people they also do a lot of good....

The problem with all these new rules that they come too slow
and quite out of the blue, I mean we know it's going to happen
but not really when. In the end they will clean up quite a bit shit.
Sites will dissapear and I hope some day we all will just have to
deliver a high quality product to the surfer so that the people
will regain a bit trust.

For far too long a lot of sites have been way too busy with
getting more revenue from a surfer by slick tricks than instead
of offering a decent product. If you look through the surfer's
eyes 75% of the paysites isn't worth a single dollar let alone
that people will even think about staying longer than the trial
to which they've signed up for.

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#14

06-10-2003, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by jimmy3way

Basically it's just two different business models.

You hit it there.
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#15

06-10-2003, 10:17 PM

Go and join some of the bigger sponsors site. Sign up for the trial and watch and see how many things they try to sign you up for. That we actually get people to dare try is amazing.

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bigdog

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#16

06-10-2003, 10:43 PM

i would like to know how sponsors paid $40 per signup before when there were no cross sells
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#17

06-10-2003, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Lenny2
Boss Hawg you're right, the ripple effect will be HUGE, and payouts will drop by more than $5.
With cross sales gone and all the major ISP's offering pop up blockers by default, all we'll be left with is recurring.

There's so much spam out there now that a member's email address isn't worth nearly what it used to be, so that source of revenue is on the decline as well.

Its not looking good

time to focus on quality members areas
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#18

06-10-2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by bigdog
i would like to know how sponsors paid $40 per signup before when there were no cross sells

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#19

06-10-2003, 11:00 PM

if those are gone... free trial sign ups.. i see going for about 15$ and 1.99$ trials going for 20$.. then monitoring your traffic closely.. becuase some people's traffic converts like pure shit.. and won't have cross sales to back it up some.. means TGP traffic prolly going for 5 - 10$ per sale
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#20

06-10-2003, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by DynaSpain
For all I care they can be gone tomorrow. With the mess that
some people make of it they do a lot of bad to this industry.
I understand for a lot of people they also do a lot of good....

The problem with all these new rules that they come too slow
and quite out of the blue, I mean we know it's going to happen
but not really when. In the end they will clean up quite a bit shit.
Sites will dissapear and I hope some day we all will just have to
deliver a high quality product to the surfer so that the people
will regain a bit trust.

For far too long a lot of sites have been way too busy with
getting more revenue from a surfer by slick tricks than instead
of offering a decent product. If you look through the surfer's
eyes 75% of the paysites isn't worth a single dollar let alone
that people will even think about staying longer than the trial
to which they've signed up for.

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jayeff

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#21

06-10-2003, 11:46 PM

1. Sponsors with poor retention would have to start making some effort to satisfy their customers = fewer pissed off surfers.

2. Sponsors would have to make a real effort to sell the site to which affiliates were actually sending surfers = no more need for an affiliate to worry about what he/she did (not) get paid for and surfers jerked around less.

3. Affiliates would need to target their traffic better = surfers jerked around less.

If we really were forced to start treating surfers and each other with a bit of respect, the cowboys would either have to get professional and start thinking long-term or else quit. Either way I don't see how it could be anything but good for business.
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#22

06-10-2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by LAMike
Imagine if we could all just bill our customers 20 bucks a month straight up. No dececption of any sort.

Imagine what?
Lots of people are doing just that. Good members sections, reasonable prices, high recurring percentages and high profit margins.

On another note, I would love cross sells to die out. But it won't happen.

When we use to research new programs to promote off exits, I loved seeing when a site that's charging 40 bucks, also has two other cross selling sites for 40 bucks a pop at the bottom of the signup form....PRE-CHECKED.... $120 ding to his cc.

Some of these programs are already going to bill the guy for $40 for a members section that's pure shit, at least give him the opportunity to check cross selling boxes himself.

But as its been said...it's two completely different business models.
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#23

06-11-2003, 12:05 AM

i think all of these business models are getting kind of stale.... if someone just used their brain a little bit and come up with something different, swoit is lame, but AT LEAST they have a new, fresh angle.... now before you smartasses call my bluff and ask for my supreme input, you wont get it, it's priceless!!

(j/k, i dont have brainwaves, duh!)

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#24

06-11-2003, 03:17 AM

no cross sales ( nowadays people forget about them or don't even notice them ) = less charge backs = less unsatisied customers ( surfers who feel cheated ) = better conversions in future.

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Mr.Fiction

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#25

06-11-2003, 03:22 AM

What percentage of chargebacks and credits come from cross sales?

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Serge_Oprano

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#26

06-11-2003, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
What percentage of chargebacks and credits come from cross sales?

you got it!

quite large!

I wish cross sales go away and this industry implodes...

this industry has been stagnant for years,
minds like Ron Levi's who was behind every major innovation on the net,
stopped THINKING and innovate,
today's industry reminds me of the train which goes fast towards the dead end.

Hopefully, this implosion will FORCE thinkers to put the thinking cap back.
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Mr.Fiction

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#27

06-11-2003, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano

this industry has been stagnant for years,
minds like Ron Levi's who was behind every major innovation on the net,
stopped THINKING and innovate,
today's industry reminds me of the train which goes fast towards the dead end.

Hopefully, this implosion will FORCE thinkers to put the thinking cap back.

You brought back your own innovator, right?. What does he have planned? You can tell us.

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#28

06-11-2003, 03:50 AM

we'll miss you our friend. RIP
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Serge_Oprano

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#29

06-11-2003, 03:50 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

You brought back your own innovator, right?. What does he have planned? You can tell us.

he starts on 16th and I have a feeling he'd do MUCH better building new on the rubbles of old
;-))

...and I see those rubbles rapidly approaching!

I LOVE SEEING FM WEARING THINKING CAP
and the rest chasing his tail
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#30

06-11-2003, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by JerseyPuma
I have a feeling that most paysite owners on this board have problems even thinking about that scenario without shitting their pants...just an opinion.

True. Most members areas are shit--most of the revenue geared towards pop exits and cross sells. Add badly executed upsells to this equation and you'd really have a disaster.

The recent legal issues facing EPOCH doesn't bode well for the cross sell market as well. EPOCH is one of the most liberal cross sell processors out there with their ezclick/purchase plus program. If these run into either 3d party legal issues or (worse) FTC/Regulatory issues, the shit would definitely hit the fan then.

Bottomline analysis -- the downside = lowered payouts the upside = flight to quality and renewed focus on retention.
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optikalz

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#31

06-11-2003, 04:41 AM

Exactly, Ian. I think if the allure of PPS is diminished somewhat by a lowering of payouts, partnership sites that focus on quality and retention would have a fighting chance.

Originally posted by gothweb
I would love it.

I have a few cross-sale options on my sites, but they are unchecked by default and don't generate many sales. It's just an option I wanted to give people-- join both sites, pay a little less.

For the most part, though, I think it would be great to see deceptive marketing like cross-sales that are checked by defauls go away. Likewise, stuff that screws affiliates, like cross-sales that don't credit the affiliate with the sale. Take away things like that, and honest guys like me can compete a little better.
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optikalz

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#32

06-11-2003, 04:45 AM

Good points, Serge. This is a SERVICE / CONTENT industry and the focus should be on the CUSTOMER. By gearing everything towards cross-sell leveraged HIGH AFFILIATE PAYOUTS, the surfer suffers and we are already feeling the impact of this in the form of steadily declining conversions. Newer surfers are getting wise to the game. Maybe by gravitating towards quality, retention, and VALUE, we'd have a longer lasting self-sustaining model.

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano

you got it!

quite large!

I wish cross sales go away and this industry implodes...

this industry has been stagnant for years,
minds like Ron Levi's who was behind every major innovation on the net,
stopped THINKING and innovate,
today's industry reminds me of the train which goes fast towards the dead end.

Hopefully, this implosion will FORCE thinkers to put the thinking cap back.
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Serge_Oprano

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#33

06-11-2003, 04:56 AM

yeap,
the Industry focused on the "technology" of separating surfer with the money,
instead on better baits and technology to keep surfer's interest...

and time to pay the piper for this strategic overlook is approaching rapidly...

those who made their money already,
have very little REASONS to innovate.

Those who haven't done the fortunes,
haven't made them for a reason,
they NEVERR were innovators to begin with.

The question in my mind is:
WHERE THE NEW SLATE OF INNOVATORS COMING FROM?
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gothweb

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#34

06-11-2003, 06:23 AM

Originally posted by LAMike
Cross sales cant go away because if they do the overall transaction counts will drop which will raise chargeback ratios out the roof. There would have to be some sort of agreement with the credit card companies. To be honest with you I would love to see the cross sales and trials go away.

Imagine if we could all just bill our customers 20 bucks a month straight up. No dececption of any sort.

You think cross-sales reduce chargeback percentages? First of all, most cross-sales I have seen come in as a second transaction. Second, cross sales are deceptive in the extreme most of the time, and surely lead to much higher chargeback ratios.

The good news is that cross-sell by default will probably kill itself. I can't imagine anyone who does them has less than 1% chargeback ratios... Soon they will have to remove them or lose their billing ability.

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#35

06-11-2003, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano

he starts on 16th and I have a feeling he'd do MUCH better building new on the rubbles of old
;-))

...and I see those rubbles rapidly approaching!

I LOVE SEEING FM WEARING THINKING CAP
and the rest chasing his tail
;-))))

What world do you live in? FM got in early and almost anything new anybody did was innovative...Thats just the nature of being one of the first in any industry..

As of late FM has been playing catchup and all his new programs have been direct results of another company openeing a product a few months before him...

Serge you really need to get FM's dick out your mouth...

MarcDe is still innovating and has been since he opened ARS and the whole industry plays catch up. So have a few others.

Wake up man, the industry is moving all around you while you sit there and spam up your board on GFY as much as possible.
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#36

06-11-2003, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano
yeap, the Industry focused on the "technology" of separating surfer with the money, instead on better baits and technology to keep surfer's interest...

DV: Serge this statement contradicts your statements below.

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano
and time to pay the piper for this strategic overlook is approaching rapidly...

those who made their money already,
have very little REASONS to innovate.

Those who haven't done the fortunes,
haven't made them for a reason,
they NEVERR were innovators to begin with.

DV: In 1995 you had a shit load of ?Innovators? who saw an open window, climbed in, raped the industry and got rich. It?s that simple. It was obvious that they weren?t in it for the long haul but saw dollars signs. It wasn?t until the last few years you heard groups becoming conscious of the ethics of adult internet. Had these same ?innovators? used your advice in the first paragraph, ?the Industry focused on the "technology" of separating surfer with the money, instead on better baits and technology to keep surfer's interest..?

Having been in the adult industry long before the internet I see porn purveyors who are in it for the long haul. The new innovators will be professional white collar business types who run business like a business & not a close geek who happened to be in the right place at the right time. You?ve heard that old saying.. ?Fast at the starting gate and slow to the finish.? The ones that have made millions don?t need to worry about anything. The ones that made a nice living and want to continue to make a nice STEADY living will be successful if they follow basic business concepts.

I see a much better platform to stand on these days. The days of the ?open window? are just about extinguished in this industry. This leaves way for a more solid foundation where real webmasters and ethical business practices can survive.

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#37

06-11-2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by BossHawg

What world do you live in? FM got in early and almost anything new anybody did was innovative...Thats just the nature of being one of the first in any industry..

As of late FM has been playing catchup and all his new programs have been direct results of another company openeing a product a few months before him...

Serge you really need to get FM's dick out your mouth...

MarcDe is still innovating and has been since he opened ARS and the whole industry plays catch up. So have a few others.

Wake up man, the industry is moving all around you while you sit there and spam up your board on GFY as much as possible.

Bosswhatever,
you are not newb and yopu are not oldtimer...
otherwise you would have known that my dick usually resides in FM's ass, not the mouth
;-))

but....as long as Marc pays you,
I understand you beating the drum
;-))))

you picked the wrong party to piss with,
your mouth is not big enough for all my shit
;-)))
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#38

06-11-2003, 08:58 AM

MarcDe,
how much do you pay bosswhatever?

give him 5% raise,
he sings well and almost got a tear out of my left eye
;-))
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#39

06-11-2003, 09:01 AM

hey, FM,
what have you done to bosswhatever?

did you pull your ads from his board for lack of
Return
On
Investment?
;-))))
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Serge_Oprano

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#40

06-11-2003, 09:19 AM

hey, boss,
did you start this thread because nobody wants to join your proggy due to
low payouts/big shave due to the lack of cross sells?
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#41

06-11-2003, 09:23 AM

I just realized that Serge sucks at drama. He tries too hard, and won't give up, but besides that stubbornness, no talent at all. I mean... "bosswhatever"? What kind of clever name is that?

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#42

06-11-2003, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by gothweb
I just realized that Serge sucks at drama. He tries too hard, and won't give up, but besides that stubbornness, no talent at all. I mean... "bosswhatever"? What kind of clever name is that?

just??????

what took you so long????

are you completelly demented?

EVERYBODY has seen it for the last 2 years
;-))))

...and you thought MORONS don't grow on trees....
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#43

06-11-2003, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by jimmy3way

I do know retention is in the toilet for a lot of sites, but then again I know a few guys who boast 3-4 month AVERAGE retention.

Well they don't really boast, lol. But some people just don't need cross sales. But when you have 50+ sites and they pretty much suck, you need every dime of initial revenue you can find.

ANY site can average 3-4 months retention if they don't offer trials.

NOBODY will average 3-4 months retention if they do offer trials.

NOBODY

I don't care if you update with 100 gigs of exclusive content everyday, its not going to happen. Its just the nature of the beast.

Sponsors used to pay 35-40 per join without cross sales because in those days retention was much better. As more and more people get into this business, there are more and more paysites for surfers to join so retention drops.
People used to stay members of a site for 4-6 months because it was either stay there or do without, there weren't as many options. Now they can cancel a trial and join another site tomorrow and have something totally different to look at.

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#44

06-11-2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano
hey, boss,
did you start this thread because nobody wants to join your proggy due to
low payouts/big shave due to the lack of cross sells?

What da fuck you talking about??

Boss.. is one of the few ppl who aren't shitholes.. here... Most of ppl like you all the do is talk shit and talk shit and not do anything to improve the industry... All I hear about you are ppl wanting to beat your ass or telling you how much of a punk you are.. w/e..

So you shouldn't talk...
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Serge_Oprano

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#45

06-11-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Dax

What da fuck you talking about??

Boss.. is one of the few ppl who aren't shitholes.. here... Most of ppl like you all the do is talk shit and talk shit and not do anything to improve the industry... All I hear about you are ppl wanting to beat your ass or telling you how much of a punk you are.. w/e..

So you shouldn't talk...

Dax,
I live in Boca,
50 mins ride from you (if you have a car)

come and beat me up and post pics on GFY...

as for the rest of your comments,
suck my dick and see how that improves the industry,
capice?
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#46

06-11-2003, 09:59 AM

I'm not getting into innovators, not-innovators and all the rest of the hero-worship crap this business seems to love. Bottom line is that at a time when we had surfers willing to pay for porn queued around the block, we decided to rape them for a quick buck.

Now we are faced with paying the price for that short-term thinking and there isn't anyone who deserves putting up on a pedestal for making that happen.

And are there any signs that most have learned anything? Like hell. Instead of any let-up, some of the biggest names have quite recently started stuff like putting (auto-install) dialers on consoles. It's almost as if we want legislation and we want the card companies to come down on us...
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Dax

Confirmed User

Join Date: Apr 2002

Posts: 3161
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#47

06-11-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Serge_Oprano

Dax,
I live in Boca,
50 mins ride from you (if you have a car)

come and beat me up and post pics on GFY...

as for the rest of your comments,
suck my dick and see how that improves the industry,
capice?

My point exactly What do you add that is worth a damn?

So, why are you hated by soooo many? Why do so many ppl think you are an ass?
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FlyingIguana

aspiring banker

Join Date: Mar 2002

Posts: 10870
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#48

06-11-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Lenny2

ANY site can average 3-4 months retention if they don't offer trials.

NOBODY will average 3-4 months retention if they do offer trials.

NOBODY

I don't care if you update with 100 gigs of exclusive content everyday, its not going to happen. Its just the nature of the beast.

Sponsors used to pay 35-40 per join without cross sales because in those days retention was much better. As more and more people get into this business, there are more and more paysites for surfers to join so retention drops.
People used to stay members of a site for 4-6 months because it was either stay there or do without, there weren't as many options. Now they can cancel a trial and join another site tomorrow and have something totally different to look at.

thats not true. some sites with trials can still retain for 3-4 months. you just have to find the right sites to promote.
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Serge_Oprano

So Fucking Banned

Join Date: Feb 2002

Posts: 9820
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#49

06-11-2003, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Dax

My point exactly What do you add that is worth a damn?

So, why are you hated by soooo many? Why do so many ppl think you are an ass?

hahaahahahhahahaah,
at least they know me,
and who the fuck are you?

2 bits piece of shit nobody can't give a flying fuck about?

live your 15 seconds of fame,
I peed on you,
put it in your GFY resume
;-)))
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RedShoe

赤い靴 call me 202-456-1111

Join Date: Feb 2001

Posts: 14831
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#50

06-11-2003, 10:07 AM

50.

I agree. And TripleXCash has nice cross sales from our tour exit to our other sites that do really well.

SPECIALTY COSTUMES • PROPS • FX
Superheroes • Monsters • Robots
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For any manufacturing needs. Adult or otherwise.

aka BonsHigh on Insta
Bonsai weed plants
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