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MarkTiarra

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Dose of reality - the government coming after you?

03-11-2003, 11:57 PM

Just had, for the third time and with the third person this week a conversation about the possibilities of government crackdowns on adult entertainment on the Internet. So I figured the third time is the charm and maybe it would be good to babble on my own thoughts on the matter here. I'm sure there's a million other opinions so let's yammer...

Here are my thoughts on it:

- What are the chances someone or a bunch of someones are suddenly going to get raided and be brought to court for serving up "obscene" material?

I don't think the chances right now are huge but eventually some prosecutor is going to want to make a name for him/herself by making a big splash with a case and also catering to the antagonists in the government towards porn. I know there are funds being moved for a "task force" and there is plenty of support for someone to go after porn because it's a great political issue.

- Who's at the most risk?

Well the obvious is sites displaying really extreme shit. Where does a prosecutor stand a better chance of winning? Showing everyday garden variety porn or finding some site with fisting, extreme S&M, etc... How can he/she shock a jury into such disgust that they all agree it's obscene and has no reason to exist?

Also they might want to try the angle that a site is not doing anything to keep minors away from it. TGPs beware in that case.

So does all this mean run to the hills? Well of course not but you might want to consider being responsible and making sure you take best efforts to keep kids off (Cybersitter and the like) and you might want to stay away from extreme content if you don't want to be at the top of a target list.

So that's my thoughts... lots of good minds here... add yours.

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#2

03-11-2003, 11:58 PM

Not the way I'd go about a shut down if I were in charge of it on a nationwide scale... but then again this probably isn't the place to post THAT scenario.
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03-12-2003, 12:01 AM

Hopefully Bush and Ashhahahahaha will be retired in 2004..

I can only pray.

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03-12-2003, 12:04 AM

Well I aint looking to give anyone a freaking blueprint. But many people ask about this so I figured maybe a discussion about what the smart way to protect yourself is and also, hey... how to be responsible and remember to try and keep underage eyes off your sites. That's one thing I don't get that any official would think any webmaster would be "wrongful" about.

I mean, even if your an evil non-caring bastard with no care about who sees your site, there's still no reason to have a single underage eye on your site because a kid doesn't have a credit card and does nothing to help your margins. They could only hurt them by using bandwidth.

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#5

03-12-2003, 12:06 AM

move offshore

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03-12-2003, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by MarkTiarra
- What are the chances someone or a bunch of someones are suddenly going to get raided and be brought to court for serving up "obscene" material?

I can't divine the chances of it happening, but if it does, and the DOJ leads it, it'll probably be big. Big in the same way as the recent bust of paraphernelia companies. Lots of fanfare, lots of simultaneous raids on companies, and lots of arrests.

Thats just how politicians, especially those of A s c r o f t s type, like to do things.
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#7

03-12-2003, 12:34 AM

Originally posted by sextoyking
Hopefully Bush and Ashhahahahaha will be retired in 2004..

I can only pray.

I'll pray with you.

Let's hope America doesn't have to suffer through 6 more years of this administration. Look what the first 2 years have brought us. Americans deserve better.

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03-12-2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by m0rph3us
move offshore

Won't work unless you also renounce your citizenship.

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03-12-2003, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by UnseenWorld

Won't work unless you also renounce your citizenship.

residence you mean.

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#10

03-12-2003, 03:53 AM

Hopefully Bush and Ashhahahahaha will be retired in 2004..

More mindless bashing.

It was Bill Clinton that was responsible for the big porn law bill passed in 1996 and don't forget Tipper Gore.

The scus has blocked these laws from taking effect thanks to the justices on the right.

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#11

03-12-2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by genomega
The scus has blocked these laws from taking effect thanks to the justices on the right.

The CDA of 1996 was overturned unanimously. Which anti-porn laws did right wing justices strike down?
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#12

03-12-2003, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by genomega

More mindless bashing.

It was Bill Clinton that was responsible for the big porn law bill passed in 1996 and don't forget Tipper Gore.

The scus has blocked these laws from taking effect thanks to the justices on the right.

I have no love for Tipper's music labelling plans, but you don't seem to be as informed as you should be. I will do my best to give you some history of the "big porn law" that you mention.

The original CDA bill, while supported by a number of politicians from both parties, was conceived and pushed through congress in the years following the right wing "Gingrich Revolution", when Republicans were in the majority and Clinton was constantly being threatened by Republicans with an overide of his veto power.

Obscenity prosecutions were down 80% during the Clinton administration over the previous Republican administrations. Child Porn prosecutions were up substantially during that same time. Clinton decided to respect Free Speech and instead focus law enforcement's resources on illegal child porn, something that the two previous Republican administrations did not do.

Reno's justice department never enforced the CDA law, even before it was appealed.

The majority Supreme Court decision, which overturned the CDA law, was written by Justice Stevens, a non-right winger. Right wing activist judge William H. Rehnquist was one of the two judges who did not believe the bill should be entirely overturned.

The case to appeal the law was filed and argued by the ACLU, hated by right wingers.

Here is a quote from a Democrat Senator after the Supreme Court ruling:

"Giving full force to the first amendment online is a victory for the first amendment, for American technology, and for democracy," said Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) in a statement. "The CDA was misguided and unworkable. It reflected a fundamental misunderstanding of the technology of the Internet."

Immediately after the CDA law was overturned, several Republicans in congress, including one of the notorious sponsors of the first unconstitutional law, wrote and pushed through another bill, which was also later found unconstitutional.

Once again, Clinton and Reno never enforced the second unconstitutional Republican law.

Did I mention that obscenity prosecutions were down 80% during the Clinton administration, over previous Republican administrations?

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#13

03-12-2003, 04:42 AM

Damn is it that time of week again?

Sorry folks but porn is not going anywhere.
As long as you keeping it legal you should be fine.

What the Goverment is going after is CP, beasty and stuff like that. As long as you are not stupid enough to deal with that stuff you should fine.

Jeez, get a grip.

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MarkTiarra

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#14

03-12-2003, 04:47 AM

Thanks for the history info there. As I recall from reading the bills the biggest problem was a deep lack of understanding of the technologies involved. I remember having the feeling that the people pushing the bill wanted to look good to their supporters but didn't take the time to figure out a real and working way to keep underage eyeballs off adult websites.

Now I'm not a republican or a democrat but I will point out to those who haven't thought about it that when a republican is in office and a Supreme Court seat comes available that we are almost always going to get a "right wing" judge appointed. So the balance of the voting might be favorable to the first amendment now, but if that balance shifts then one might expect another round of laws trying to be passed through since the authors of it would figure it's more likely to stand up in a battle.

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MarkTiarra

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03-12-2003, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by OzKaNoz
Damn is it that time of week again?

Sorry folks but porn is not going anywhere.
As long as you keeping it legal you should be fine.

What the Goverment is going after is CP, beasty and stuff like that. As long as you are not stupid enough to deal with that stuff you should fine.

Jeez, get a grip.

Oz

Oz, I agree. That's why I stated above that one should just do their best to stay away from far out stuff and should also do what they can with what technology is available to keep minors off their sites.

But since it keeps coming up I thought a thread with an educational tone would be better than a paranoia post. =]

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#16

03-12-2003, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by OzKaNoz
Damn is it that time of week again?

Sorry folks but porn is not going anywhere.
As long as you keeping it legal you should be fine.

What the Goverment is going after is CP, beasty and stuff like that. As long as you are not stupid enough to deal with that stuff you should fine.

Jeez, get a grip.

Oz

Yea they won't go after bong makers either, only crackpipe manufacturers. And never those cable filters or anything like that. But hey we all know bongs and cable filiters are much worse than porn in the governments eye.

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#17

03-12-2003, 05:04 AM

stocktrader23
What the hell do bongs have to do with the porn business?
Shit bongs have been illegal for along time, porn isn't illegal.

If you sale bongs and pipes and say it's for the purpose of toking , yes they are illegal.

Most head shops (places that sale pipes and bong) sale them as a novelty. But the sites that were closed down didn't do it that way.

Don't compare bongs to porn my friend.
So now who needs to buy a clue?

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#18

03-12-2003, 05:05 AM

Originally posted by MarkTiarra

Oz, I agree. That's why I stated above that one should just do their best to stay away from far out stuff and should also do what they can with what technology is available to keep minors off their sites.

But since it keeps coming up I thought a thread with an educational tone would be better than a paranoia post. =]

I agree, a educational tone would be better than a paranoia post.

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03-12-2003, 05:21 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

I have no love for Tipper's music labelling plans, but you don't seem to be as informed as you should be. I will do my best to give you some history of the "big porn law" that you mention.

dude, when are you going to come here without distorted facts. You're an extreme left winger, we get that. Must you distort the facts as well?

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
The original CDA bill, while supported by a number of politicians from both parties, was conceived and pushed through congress in the years following the right wing "Gingrich Revolution", when Republicans were in the majority and Clinton was constantly being threatened by Republicans with an overide of his veto power.

Please tell me when the republicans held a 2/3s majority in the house and senate to override a veto? Stop pretending it was the republicans alone who brought this law into being.

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Obscenity prosecutions were down 80% during the Clinton administration over the previous Republican administrations. Child Porn prosecutions were up substantially during that same time. Clinton decided to respect Free Speech and instead focus law enforcement's resources on illegal child porn, something that the two previous Republican administrations did not do.

Son, Clinton became president when, '92, '93? so how much attacking did the republican presidents before him do to internet porn? Please, tell us who those republican presidents went after on the net so we can see.

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Reno's justice department never enforced the CDA law, even before it was appealed.

who's gone to jail during the current bush administration over it?

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
The majority Supreme Court decision, which overturned the CDA law, was written by Justice Stevens, a non-right winger. Right wing activist judge William H. Rehnquist was one of the two judges who did not believe the bill should be entirely overturned.

First, there is no such thing as a right wing activist judge (that's just a term invented by liberals who don't like strong conservatives) . second, if a majority of the supreme court overturned it, I guess some of them must be republicans right? Also, Republican presidents have appointed as many of the current liberal bench as democrats have (look it up for once)

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
The case to appeal the law was filed and argued by the ACLU, hated by right wingers.

There's a point here somewhere, I know it.

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Here is a quote from a Democrat Senator after the Supreme Court ruling:

"Giving full force to the first amendment online is a victory for the first amendment, for American technology, and for democracy," said Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) in a statement. "The CDA was misguided and unworkable. It reflected a fundamental misunderstanding of the technology of the Internet."

Well they better say something considering it was the clinton administration that was busy stripping away your rights. I suggest you read this:
http://www.yale.edu/ypq/articles/oct97/oct97c.html

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Immediately after the CDA law was overturned, several Republicans in congress, including one of the notorious sponsors of the first unconstitutional law, wrote and pushed through another bill, which was also later found unconstitutional.

No, completely false. it wasn't "several" it was more like a couple and if I were interested, I could trot out the stupid liberal laws sponsored by a "couple" of liberals.

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Once again, Clinton and Reno never enforced the second unconstitutional Republican law.

You're right finally. They vigorously defended against appeal the democratic CDA law as outlined here:
http://www.yale.edu/ypq/articles/oct97/oct97c.html

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction
Did I mention that obscenity prosecutions were down 80% during the Clinton administration, over previous Republican administrations?

Yes you did. what this means is that besides ignoring EVERYTHING going on on the internet, Clinton also ignored 80% of the crimes that the 6 presidents before him (both republican and democrat) thought were worthy of prosecution.

You liberals are so dopey some times.

I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.
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#20

03-12-2003, 05:27 AM

Whacking off seems very important to the people on this site...
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#21

03-12-2003, 05:32 AM

Originally posted by OzKaNoz
stocktrader23
What the hell do bongs have to do with the porn business?
Shit bongs have been illegal for along time, porn isn't illegal.

If you sale bongs and pipes and say it's for the purpose of toking , yes they are illegal.

Most head shops (places that sale pipes and bong) sale them as a novelty. But the sites that were closed down didn't do it that way.

Don't compare bongs to porn my friend.
So now who needs to buy a clue?

Oz

The point is which do you think the government disagrees with more, a piece of glass or a piece of ass? Obscenity charges have been brought against an array of people not just beast and cp guys. Many of these have been won. Just wait till ashdick decides to bust a few of the major players and lets see what your opinion is on it then. And it really doesn't matter if you win or lose because once the gov. puts you through the ringer you'll either be a. in jail or b. broke.

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#22

03-12-2003, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by pelagicnavigator
Whacking off seems very important to the people on this site...

Dude your going to get banned using words like "Whacking off"

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OzKaNoz

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#23

03-12-2003, 05:46 AM

stocktrader23
Yes, charges have been won. You are correct in saying that.

But you are incorrect as to why.
The sites in question were dealing in shady business practices. That's why they when down. Not because it was a porn business.

It still comes down to running your porn business like a business.
Don't screw with anything illegal or try using shady business practices and you'll be fine.

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#24

03-12-2003, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by OzKaNoz
stocktrader23
Yes, charges have been won. You are correct in saying that.

But you are incorrect as to why.
The sites in question were dealing in shady business practices. That's why they when down. Not because it was a porn business.

It still comes down to running your porn business like a business.
Don't screw with anything illegal or try using shady business practices and you'll be fine.

Oz

What does Ashdick think?

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,44398,00.html
and
http://www.melonfarmers.co.uk/inash.htm

"As I am sure you are aware, the proliferation of obscenity, both via the Internet as well as through more traditional channels, has become a pervasive and destructive element in our society. I am committed fully to dedicating the resources necessary to combat this burgeoning problem.

To that end, I am pleased to announce an initiative aimed at developing a national obscenity strategy for aggressive federal prosecutions of such cases. On June 6-7, 2002, at the Department's National Advocacy Center in Columbia, South Carolina, the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys and the Criminal Division's Child Exploitation and Obscenity Section are sponsoring an Obscenity Law Enforcement Symposium. This symposium will provide a forum to discuss the current state of the sex industry, the legal challenges in investigating and prosecuting obscenity cases, and the policies and guidelines necessary to develop our strategies in a thoughtful and deliberate way.

I encourage you and your staff to support and participate in this initiative and the upcoming symposium. I look forward to our partnership in launching and sustaining this important endeavor.

Ashhahahahaha to Vindicate "The Right of the Nation to Maintain a Decent Society" Through Obscenity Prosecutions
Ashhahahahaha's fire in Columbia was not only directed at child pornography and the effects of adult pornography on children, but more broadly and generally he addressed himself to the material that he characterized as "obscene." The full text of Ashhahahahaha's June 6th, 2002, prepared remarks to the nationwide gathering of prosecutors and law enforcement officials at the National Advocacy Center has now been posted online at nationallawcenter.org/Remarks%20of%20Attorney%20General%20John%20Ashhaha hahaha.htm. "

Tons more.

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#25

03-12-2003, 02:02 PM

Great post stock and good digging. =]

Anyone else here remember the Meese Comission? Seems most netters have no clue what happened.

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#26

03-12-2003, 02:52 PM

There is another reason why a government crackdown on online porn is unlikely in the near future.

Most of the major telecommunications companies are struggling financially. Porn seems to make up a significant portion of taffic on the internet (I doubt anyone knows internet wide figures, but I've heard between 10%-40%). Could the telecoms deal with a 10%-40% drop in revenue in the internet divisions?

Of course porn wouldn't go away. It would just move off shore.

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http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...=thread&tid=95

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#27

03-12-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by MarkTiarra
Great post stock and good digging. =]

Anyone else here remember the Meese Comission? Seems most netters have no clue what happened.

No comment on my post Mark?

Save the rest of these chuck and duck liberals and at least confront my weakest points.

I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.
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#28

03-12-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by 12clicks

No comment on my post Mark?

Save the rest of these chuck and duck liberals and at least confront my weakest points.

Not sure I disagree with any of it. =] You bring up some points other people didn't take the time to research. Then again you can find reports so conflicting on issues that who knows what's true?

This is why I'm not a Democrat or A Republican... I honestly feels it's gotten to the point that both sides are less concerned with the truth and more concerned with DISTORTING to make the other side look bad (and hopefully themselves look good in the process). All they'e accomplished is to make most Americans think it's futile to vote because they all suck. SLinging mud all these years has gotten the dirt on everyone.

I'm inclined to vote Libertarian even though some of it is more extreme than my views, at least it would get negotiated down to something good.

So here's what I see on the issue at hand (as I finally get back to the point):

Liberals generally go on about how they defend First Ammendment rights and sometimes they walk their talk. Good example of one who doesn't walk the talk is Tipper Gore.

Conservatives generally go on about morale responsibility and sometimes they walk their talk.

We want to argue track record? Where did the bills originate? Were anti-First Amendment bills during Clinton's time a result of a Republican push in Congress? Did Bill push back against them or join in... or was his policy such that HE originated the policies?

Follow the bills back to the source and there's your argument.

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#29

03-12-2003, 07:05 PM

A couple links:

http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/EFF_ACLU_v_DoJ/

http://www.hahahaha.org/cda/

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-262.html

Meese Comission:
http://eserver.org/cultronix/califia/meese/

And by the way:

On February 1st, 1995, Senators Exon (D-NE) and Gorton (R-WA) introduced S.314, which they called "The Communications Decency Act".

Republican AND Democrat offer it up!

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#30

03-12-2003, 07:06 PM

smells like creative spam
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#31

03-12-2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by TheFLY
smells like creative spam

How in the fuck is this spam? I haven't said a word about design the entire time. Please 'splain Lucy...

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#32

03-12-2003, 07:12 PM

Hopefully Bush and Ashhahahahaha will be retired in 2004..

I can only pray.

We can all only pray, fuck I love porn, I dont want him to shut us down that stupid fucker.
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#33

03-12-2003, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by TheFLY
smells like creative spam

For whom? PornStoppersRUs?
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#34

03-12-2003, 07:20 PM

Ill be running for president in 2004 nothin to worry about

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#35

03-12-2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by EscortBiz
Ill be running for president in 2004 nothin to worry about

Hey wait now that's a spam! Fuck it I'll vote for ya anyway.

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#36

03-12-2003, 09:51 PM

Just wanted to throw in a few things about this line of thought.

Right now the government looks really bad because of all the crap first with Osama bin what ever the fuck and now Saddam the dick head. Then all of a sudden the guys in Korea or where ever have decided to thorw in.
The ratings on the big guys running the country has fallen really fast and hard, so they pulled the Porn trick out of the bag and they are waving it around to try to help get the people behind them on something. Anything!!!

I really don not believe that the government has the time right now to chase the porn around. They just want to stir the believers a bit and get some backing. Later they may try to really do something, but righ now it looks like a lot of talk for the next few months.

And allways keep in mind that most of the government is run by men, and they as well think with their dicks! I would no be surprised to find that some of them have memberships to some of the sites...
Remember Bill getting a blowjob in the white house and shoving his cigar up what ever her name was. Thie guy did this in the most documented place on the planet. Every thing that is done in the place is documented to the minute.

Someone just get some dirt on one of these idiots and we will be fine for 10 to 15 years!!!

Just my thoughts!

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wimpy

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#37

03-13-2003, 10:46 AM

Sad to say, we live in a world where a CP sting nets up to 100 people a day. (Per news articles I read about operation candyman, or whatever they called it). In that light, I doubt they will go after anyone who deals strictly with adults.

If you spam, you're probably spamming kids. You're at risk, imo, no matter what your content.

also, there's the war on terror. That is stressing the govt's resources to the limit. They don't have the resources to launch a full fledged war on porn. If Osama Bin Laden is captured, however, suddenly the feds might have time for ya.

Personally I don't deal in anything that can't arguably be considered art. I make less money that way but enough for this one man show and I'm happy to sleep fine at night.

Fyodor Dostoyevsky wrote: "Every man has reminiscences which he would not tell to everyone but only his friends. He has other matters in his mind which he would not reveal even to his friends, but only to himself, and that in secret. But there are other things which a man is afraid to tell even to himself, and every decent man has a number of such things stored away in his mind."

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rossiya2

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#38

03-13-2003, 11:03 AM

Just ping whitehouse.com

When the t&a is replaced by bush&ashhahahahaha it's time to get friendly with your state senate. Till then business as usual.

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rossiya2

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#39

03-13-2003, 11:17 AM

The folks running Amateur Action BBS in Milpitas went to jail for a year. The crime was permitting a postman to upload cp onto their system. That was tantamount to a violation of postal regulations, which at the time apparently included any form of information transmission [UPS only sent dildos I guess]. I lived 6 miles away.

A small change in enforcement policies could put all of us behind bars. An administration enforcing the old laws would appear out of touch with the mainstream. However the electoral process seems to favor crackdown personalities.

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Mike AI

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#40

03-13-2003, 11:59 AM

More damage was done to the Online Adult Industry during the Clinton Administration then has happend so far under Bush.

I keep hearing a lot of hot air, but so far see NO real facts about an impending crackdown.

Mark Tiera a chicken little? Or just ahead of the curve?

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rooster

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#41

03-13-2003, 12:04 PM

Another thing to consider is if free porn, spamming, and p2p networks were cracked down on, converisions would be better.

Ever notice that pretty much everything added to the Constitution after the original was a mistake.
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TheJimmy

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#42

03-13-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by NetRodent
There is another reason why a government crackdown on online porn is unlikely in the near future.

Most of the major telecommunications companies are struggling financially. Porn seems to make up a significant portion of taffic on the internet (I doubt anyone knows internet wide figures, but I've heard between 10%-40%). Could the telecoms deal with a 10%-40% drop in revenue in the internet divisions?

Of course porn wouldn't go away. It would just move off shore.

http://www.eroticabiz.com/porntech.html
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?s...=thread&tid=95

Dude, seriously, you think this administration cares about anything other than growing the 3 D's?

Department of Defense
Department of Corrections
and the Deficit?

not likely....

lets pray we can vote them out with ease in 04...

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