Why not Cogent?

here is a great article that pretty much sums up what I was going to write here:

Great article by Brad Mitchell of sinhost

Cogent Bandwith

After reading that our 299$ special for 700 gigs of non cogent bandwith does'nt look so bad afterall!!

Wtf? read this:

"A lot of hosting companies advertise falsely all the time. You're never going to see your server so you don't know what the fuck you're hosted on. So, if you're paying $200 per month and your host is telling you that you're hosted on a dual processing server with 1 gig of ram and SCSI hard drives he's probably lying. Liars are thieves and they don't deserve anyone's business."

What a fucking load of bullshit, I've STOPPED reading that fuckin article at that moment. "Probably lying" - my ass! The fucker probably doesn't even know how to check the amount of available memory in Linux.

What a dumbfuck. Promoting his own fuckin expensive hosting, ripping people off, bitching at cogent bw, you get what you pay for, most of the time, NOT all the time. Some need cogent, some don't wtf is the problem. Some people CAN work for $10 an hour like me, some want $50 for the same service.

AGREE WITH keyDet79 100% you will pay $.24 for Cogent or upwards of $.90-$2 for True Tier 1 Redundant

Also once again that article does not answer the question of this thread. WHY IS IT BAD? It?s not bad because it?s cheap, that?s not an answer. How many packets will you loose on Cogent? What is your down time DUE TO PROBLEM WITH COGENT?

Not trying to start anything, but an "Informative article" about Cogent written by a guy who runs a hosting company that competes with providers who offer Cogent can only be interpreted as propaganda or creative marketing to get you not to host with someone using Cogent.

then it worked.

influencing people is half the battle.

taking their money is the other half.

SinHost is a hosting company, not a bandwidth provider. I'd say Brad's comments on Cogent are less propaganda and more the voice of experience.

Cogent bandwidth is much cheaper than tier 1 bandwidth. If Cogent were even close to as good, don't you think more people would be using them?

Packet loss isn't the only thing to consider, you also have to look at latency.

www.ReliableServers.Net

Cable & Wireless
Internap
Williams
Nac

500 gigs for 200.00
5 mbit = 400.00
10 mbit = 650.00

www.ReliableServers.Net

I had the first Cogent light on the west coast. Through it all I feel Cogent has become better and they have a huge task to undertake peering with other carriers who would prefer they disappear.

You can't turn a supertanker on a dime and sometimes there are outages and particular peering arrangements fall through. However when there is a technical issue rather than a business dispute they usually get things patched quickly.

These days in a multihomed environment you can choose your connectivity. I would say from experience that someone who can tolerate 6 hours offline every year would probably be served appropriately by Cogent. If he pays three times more he can cut that to 2 hours yearly. If he pays much more for ecommerce or financial services he can cut that to almost zero.

Lowdown is that Cogent tends to be the choice for Adult where companies need to control their costs or startup. With multihoming the issue is vanishingly small compared to say 1998 when 5% data loss and 5% downtime was the norm.

Good article, it tells it like it is in my opinion

If Cogent isn't tier 1, what happened to the tier1 companies they bought up?

"Cogent Communications (AMEX: COI) is a Tier 1, facilities based, all-optical ISP focused on delivering ultra-high speed Internet access and transport services ..."

It all boils down to Cogent's business model is based upon being oversold. If you don't mind really slow response times and outages, then Cogent is a good for you. If speed and uptime is important, then look elsewhere.

90% of those that claim multi-homed are lying. It is very expensive, I personally don't know of one of the big guys are. All you have to do is trace to them over various major networks to see, GFY is multi-homed for example.

I never noticed they oversold their bandwidth. I have noticed that various peering points are sometimes conjested. When we pumped 2 gigs through my lines it worked fine.

Look at the economics. It is straightforward to lay out fiber and hook up transceivers. It is quite hard to bargain with competitors for peering when they themselves are vying for transport business.

Hello!
"various peering points are sometimes conjested" == "oversold". What else is there for a bandwidth provider TO oversell?

They didn't buy up any tier 1's, they bought up companies that had networks, and some peering, but not tier1.

OK, they claim to be tier1, wow.

Claiming to be tier1 doesn't make it so. tier1 is a function of not paying anyone else for data delivery over the internet. IE: everyone on the internet is either a customer, a peer, or a customer of a peer.

Some companies, who claim to be tier 1, don't buy transit from anyone, but do buy peering from some networks, they are closer than cogent.

Cogent buys transit from MFN.

What about the not-so-distant episode when cogent got their peering with aol terminated? that was approx 10% of your porn traffic GONE. How long did it take them to suck up their pride, and give in to buying more transit to reach AOL? About a month. That's about a month where they said "fuck our customers, let's just drop their data". That's of course forgetting that they were saturating their DS3 peering to Level3, and had problems reaching level3 customers too.

Actually, at least my bitching was not about cogent. I don't like them, and wish they would go out of business post haste, but, I can deal with them. You on the other hand, are a liar. Stop with your bullshit "ONE OF our 6 lines". You are selling cogent, with backup transit to AT&T, heavily prepended. Even you say yourself that your prices are very cheap, because of cogent.

Yo shmuck face lets try it again

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE willing to put against a bet that we are actually using 6 lines.

how about this if I can prove to you and anyone else that would like that we have 6 lines that is Cogent, ATT, and 4 more that you very well know. Lets make a little wager I say $10,000 to a cashiers check to an independent party that both of us can agree on. And If I am right you will

1. Loose 10K to me personally
2. Leave this board and never post here again
3. Stick your head in the toilet and flush (actually this one is just for personal satisfaction)

I don't need to bet anything.
I'm more than half educated, unlike you. Start announcing over other links, and we'll see. This isn't 1999 when all webmasters are morons anymore.

"schmuck face"? Is that the best you can come up with?

Exactly no balls to put your $ where your mouth is

As you can see I stand behind anything I say and as per education when you graduate MIT with 3.89 GPA please come back we will talk.

At this point I choose not respond to your posts have a nice time

I don't usually post in cases like this but why are you so quick to attack a potental client (which is basically everyone on gfy) like you did ??...Instead of namecalling show the guy your lines, show him proof of your setup its easy enough =)

Have a little respect man

Lies, Lies, and Lies. MIT? 3.89GPA? Did you even graduate an American High School?


From previous thread: http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...0&pagenumber=2
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showth...0&pagenumber=3

Plane, not plain.

I corrected you to "Doesn't It", and you corrected your post.

You're the one who needs to defend your shit. And you seem to think that making 10k bets proves your creditibilty. I have no interest in making stupid bets, this isn't high school. It's simple, stop lying, or submit some sort of proof that you are using anything other than cogent and prepended AT&T.

On page 3 of that previous post there is more than enough information showing that there is NO PROOF whatsoever that you have the other 4 networks you claim to.

Ahhh... that commentary of mine is always controversial.

First of all, I wrote that back in June of last year. It's worth noting that pricing has come down across the board at my company and most others since then. I provide high performance hosting at very reasonable prices. I'm not the cheapest, but I'm not some joker just reselling someone else's bandwidth or leveraging someone else's hardware. I'm no where near the largest, but I am the real deal.. and there are many more good things to come from SinHost.

You don't see negative threads about my hosting company here because my staff and I work very hard for our clients.

My comments about Cogent? Still very much true. However, I do think that Cogent has become a much more viable and stable company over the last 9 months. I think they're here for the long haul and perhaps someday their peering arrangements and ping times will improve.

My comments about tons of host being full of shit all the time? Still true as ever.

To the guy that says he'll work for $10 an hour... do you want a job? LOL

Even before I was in the hosting business I was just out there with my own free and pay porn sites... There's no fucking way I would have hosted my sites with someone that was anything less than successful. I wouldn't want a host that's a hobbiest, I want someone that's committed 24-7 with something to lose when things go wrong.

I'd be depressed if I wasn't making a multiple of that in my sleep!

keyDet79... You're just ignorant for not reading the whole article, you might have learned something if you did. Like it or not it's full of fact and at that slice in time very much summed up the pros and cons of using Cogent.

Buyer beware with hosting! That was the jist of what I was saying. Cut through the fluff when you're making a decision about who you are going to trust your online business to. There are a ton of hosts that are nothing more than resellers of other peoples bandwidth and hardware investments. That's not necessarily a bad thing! However, companies that outright lie about their setup just piss me off.

Logic00, man, if you have 6 *direct* relationships with tier one companies then you're definitely "the man". I don't know of any other adult hosting company that does.

Cheers!

Brad

you can loose some surfers with slower online connections,

also remember something about AOL not allowing surfers to cogent backbones,, can't recall the whole story

 
BGP routing table entry for 66.111.192.0/18, version 60308096
Paths: (4 available, best #1, table Default-IP-Routing-Table)
  Advertised to peer-groups:
     edge
  174 16631 18942
    165.117.1.127 (metric 6) from 165.117.160.200 (165.117.160.200)
      Origin IGP, metric 100, localpref 100, valid, internal, best
      Community: 2548:666
      Originator: 165.117.1.127, Cluster list: 165.117.160.200
6461 16631 16631 16631 18942
    216.200.249.89 from 216.200.249.89 (209.249.254.19)
      Origin IGP, metric 100, localpref 100, valid, external
      Community: 2548:666
  174 16631 18942
    165.117.162.11 (metric 2758) from 165.117.161.200 (165.117.161.200)
      Origin IGP, metric 100, localpref 100, valid, internal
      Community: 2548:666
      Originator: 165.117.162.11, Cluster list: 165.117.161.200
  174 16631 18942
    165.117.1.127 (metric 6) from 165.117.160.201 (165.117.160.201)
      Origin IGP, metric 100, localpref 100, valid, internal
      Community: 2548:666
      Originator: 165.117.1.127, Cluster list: 165.117.160.201
 
Those are the routes being announced right now.
 
174   = ASNumber:   174
        ASName:     PSINET
        ASHandle:   AS174
16631 = ASNumber:   16631
        ASName:     COGENT-ASN
        ASHandle:   AS16631
18942 = ASNumber:   18942
        ASName:     3WCORP
        ASHandle:   AS18942
 
6461  = ASNumber:   6461
        ASName:     ABOVENET
        ASHandle:   AS6461
16631 = ASNumber:   16631
        ASName:     COGENT-ASN
        ASHandle:   AS16631
18942 = ASNumber:   18942
        ASName:     3WCORP
        ASHandle:   AS18942
 
3WCorp is Datapeer, it?s a New Jersey based company which specializes in ?data storage?.  They started 9netave some years ago and got bought out by concentric.  Afterwards they started datapeer.

A simple way to see if someone is a reseller is to paste a random phrase from their 'facility information' (or similar) page into google. A lot of them just use the data centre's information as their own.

That's not entirely true... Most hosting companies are in "carrier neutral" datacenters. I copied some of the data for my site from: http://www.switchanddata.com/Locatio...Locations/3901

The data center's specifics are the only details that would accurately describe so many of the environmentals pertinent to a hosting operation. By definition, a reseller would be someone who doesn't have a direct relationship with either the facility or the source of their bandwidth... ie - someone who is subleasing space and not buying bandwidth from the source.

Brad

SinHosting rocks my socks.

bump!

I know absolutely nothing about what all that info means but Datapeer hosted my accounts for a year. They were always up and load times were quicker than anywhere I had seen. Very nice business until they merged with someone and support went to shit. The b/w was still awesome though.

In the words of an old friend of mine...
It means that:
logic00 is a liar, and his pants are on fire.

He is claiming to be selling you "multihomed 6 tier 1 bandwidth", but actually selling you 100% cogent.


logic00: Can we be friends?

stocktrader23 sorry to hear that you had problems with us in the past but as you can see WHP is an adult division of DP and I can assure you that our support is one of the best you can get in this market Thanks for the kind words since my ass was starting to hurt already

Fascinating how when I do searches on various texts in your website I find that there are many sites with the exact same text.

Copy and paste the examples in your browser then put "http://" before them.. I couldn't find any good way to display the long links here, you basically have to go line by line in copy and paste instead of all at once. Oh well, the jist of what you'll see is other company websites that have the same "pitch" as what is seen on various parts of the WebHostPlus website.

Example 1:
search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Our+Datacenters+are+connected+to+a+SON ET+ring+via+redundant+OC-3+links.+These+links+are+upgradeable+to+OC-192.+Our+metro+area+network+consists+of+a+SONET+ri ng+connecting+our+two+Datacenters+and+two+major+PO Ps.+At+each+POP%2C+we+peer+with+Tier+1+Internet+ba ckbone+providers+to+carry+Internet+traffic.+In+the +unlikely+event+a+link+on+the+SONET+ring+should+go +down%2C+our+Datacenters+are+also+connected+via+a+ point-to-point+Gigabit+Ethernet+laser+link.%22

Example 2:
search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22We+consider+our+clients+to+be+valued+p artners+and+we+will+work+to+ensure+the+utmost+qual ity+of+service+and+complete+satisfaction+by+provid ing+an+advanced+on-line+trouble+ticket+system+and+a+dedicated+Technic al+Support+staff+ready+to+meet+any+needs+at+any+ti me.%22

Example 3:
(web host plus isn't in Yahoo but this text is on another company's website.)
search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22commitment+to+security+has+been+a+lead ing+factor+in+winning+and+sustaining+business+-+especially+those+businesses+focused+on+E-commerce%2C+on-line+banking+and+health+care+HIPAA+compliance.%22

Looks like a common acceptable use policy...
search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Effecting+security+breaches+or+disrupt ions+of+Internet+communication.+Security+breaches+ include%2C+but+are+not+limited+to%2C+accessing+dat a+of+which+the+Customer+is+not+an+intended+recipie nt+or+logging+into+a+server+or+account+that+the+Cu stomer+is+not+expressly+authorized+to+access.+For+ purposes+of+this+section+%22disruption%22+includes %2C+but+is+not+limited+to%2C+port+scans%2C+flood+p ings%2C+packet+spoofing+and+forged+routing+informa tion.%22

***And this is where everything gets MOST interesting:

DataPeer's Private Label Program enables your business to offer DataPeer's power²solutions under your own brand name, with your look and feel. The Private Label Program relieves you of the stress associated with procuring new equipment, integrating systems and launching similar services yourself. In a matter of weeks, you can potentially double your service offering providing you with instantaneous revenue generators and a substantial competitive advantage.

Private Label Options:

power²host: Shared Hosting - This suite is ideal for partners interested in generating revenue by selling a high-volume of shared hosting and e-commerce packages to small and medium-sized businesses.

power²host: Dedicated and Managed Services - DataPeer's enterprise-class hosting and managed services are a good fit for partners interested in targeting high-traffic, e-commerce sites that require the increased security and performance of dedicated resources.

Application Services - DataPeer's Application Services allow businesses to utilize applications from leading vendors for a minimal monthly fee. This eliminates the burden and expense of managing the software in-house.

Applications supported include: MS Exchange, SQL, MySQL, DB2, Oracle, Multimedia, and Real Media.


power²store: - power²store allows teleworkers to store, protect, synchronize, and access critical data from virtually anywhere in the world.

Intelligent Service Manager (ISM) - ISM is a Web-based portal that allows customers to customize account information, view technical specifications and receive technical support. This one-of-a-kind system allows users to get complete, up-to-the-minute billing statements where they can manage multiple accounts, and change billing preferences.

Mobile Data Management Solutions: power²share/power²sync - These solutions are ideal for any telecommunications, wireless or mobile solutions company, with an installed database of customers who are looking for competitive advantage. They require no internal IT investment... they offer expedited deployment to customers and employees... they offer bundling opportunities with existing products and services, and they can result in high-revenue streams through monthly recurring revenue.

Program Features:

Breadth of Services - DataPeer offers a full-line of hosting and storage services for resale. Nowhere will you find a more comprehensive offering or quality partner than DataPeer.

Automated Billing - This automated process is handled by the ISM, and your users will have the option of modifying payment options on the fly.

Automated Signup - DataPeer will create customized registration pages with your look and feel. Users will be able to create, modify, or cancel accounts through the ISM tool.

Equipment Procurement - Through the ISM tool, DataPeer staff will know exactly when a service has been selected and will purchase the hardware, software, and bandwidth necessary to deliver and support it.

Flexibility & Scalability - The Private Label Program will satisfy the needs of today's SMBs as well as larger, enterprise-class organizations. DataPeer's world-class datacenter is built with accelerated growth in mind, and can handle dramatic fluctuations in capacity demand.

Client Care (Optional) - A toll-free customer service number will be setup specifically for your users. The phone system will be configured to identify your unique customers and answer the phone with a pre-determined greeting.

Technical Support (Optional) - A toll-free technical support number will be provided to your users as well. This service is available 24x7x365.


After all that, I think I'm not the only one wondering who you are?

Cheers!

Brad

One last question... if WebHostPlus specializes in adult how come there is not a single reference to that on it's website? Without specific mention of adult hosting services, this website is no different than the parent corporations website... if in fact DataPeer is truly a parent company or the same company... instead of a company just providing white-label services for WebHostPlus.

You guys have converted me.

I've been on cogent for 2 years now. Lately it's been slow as fuck, im outta here...peace out old hosting company

Don't mean to cut you short, but here's an easier way to show this:

http://www.webhostplus.com/about_tour2.asp
http://www.foundation-hosting.com/tour.php

Compare WH+'s "Wide Area Network" to Foundation's "SPEED"

http://www.webhostplus.com/about_advantages.asp
http://www.netvulive.com/who_we_are.htm

"Client Care and Support" on both

http://www.webhostplus.com/about_tour4.asp
http://www.intermedia.net/about/network/datacenters/

"Security" on both.


logic00: Do you get the idea? How many times do you have to be made out to be a moron? You are at the very minimum, a liar and a thief. You are stealing other people's designs (dellhost - read previous threads), other people's contents (read above), claiming to sell one thing, and selling another. Admitting you sell subpar services in another thread (you said you have to have a certain amount of packet loss to offer aggressive pricing).

How do you expect anyone to trust you?

Adult hosting is a saturated industry already, you would be much better off served going into some other business.

I simply must quote this again.

Try calling this number after hours. Get "vlad"'s voicemail.

Fuckin Lovely!

Cogent had crazy peering issues... I think

Lets try it again
WEB HOST PLUS is an adult division of DataPeer (whish we have never denied) and if you look at www.datapeer.com you will see that our site closely resembles DP. WE ARE NOT A RESELLER (my paycheck comes directly from DP ). Now as far as steeling designs lets try to take a look at when DP was established and when the other 3 companies were. I have a strong feeling that you will see DP/3W were established before any others you have mentioned. Therefore I would say that if anyone copied content it would be them (not that we mind). If you have been in this industry for as long as you say you have, then you should know that everyone copies designs, content, and layout.

Now as far as WH+ looking like Dellhost the only thing I can tell you is that there is probably a reason for that. And sometimes people have a certain signature or layout that they are used to.

Now as far as your past comments about my spelling mistakes;
I was under impression that GFY stood for ?Go Fuck Yourself? and not ?Grammar Fuck yourself?. And yes I will admit that I have made few in the past in the heat of the moment responding to morons like you. I am sorry that has offended you and I will try to not make any mistakes from now on. If you could please find it in your heart to forgive me, I would NOT GIVE A FLYING SHIT.

Well sure it does
and next time you call try to block your phone #
917-438-6813

and stop calling me at 3am

If my hosting is down, I will call the 1-800 # at 3am and hopefully get support. So you are complaining when ppl call the 1-800#. What is their server was down? Would you bitch at them too then?
ZoiNk

READ IT AGAIN
He called my own line
I am in SALES of course I am not here at 3 am
Our Tech Support is 24 X 7

Ahh, to get this back on subject, here is a comparison I ran almost a year ago between Cogent and our current host (Flying Croc aka SexTracker) ... you should run tests like this yourself. As you can see, sometimes Cogent is faster. But not usually. If I ran a datacenter, I would certainly have a pipe from them, but it would not be my preferred route.

http://www.net.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/netops.cgi
22 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 100.894 ms * 97.269 ms
19 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 84.296 ms 83.706 ms 85.212 ms


http://www.net.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/traceroute
20 g49.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.50) 82.550 ms * 86.673 ms
11 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 33.646 ms 31.286 ms 34.147 ms

http://noc.net.umd.edu/cgi-bin/traceroute/trace

12 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 34.158 ms
18 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 78.270 ms

http://www.research.compaq.com/cgi-bin/trace

11 g49.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.50) * * 86.9 ms (ttl=244!)
9 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 18.5 ms (ttl=56!) 19.5 ms (ttl=56!) 18.5 ms (ttl=56!)

http://cgi.cs.wisc.edu/scripts/condo.../traceroute.pl

14 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 57.128 ms * 57.255 ms
16 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 77.011 ms 76.804 ms 76.387 ms

http://netmonserver.princeton.edu/traceroute.html

21 g49.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.50) 87.728 ms * 87.159 ms
13 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 82.015 ms 84.032 ms 80.764 ms

Energy Sciences Network (AS292) http://www.es.net/hypertext/welcome/pr/trace.html

14 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 85 ms * 86 ms
11 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 24 ms 33 ms 23 ms

http://cities.lk.net/cities/servlets/traceroute

10 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 31 ms, * , 30 ms
10 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 108 ms, 104 ms, 103 ms

http://www.pubnix.com/cgi-bin/rbox/tc

14 * g49.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.50) 46.985 ms *
17 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 77.181 ms 77.352 ms 77.934 ms

http://www.sdsc.edu/~hutton/cgi-bin/tracert.cgi

20 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 214.311 ms 214.760 ms *
13 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 42.221 ms 38.504 ms 35.690 ms

http://www.telcom.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/trace

15 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 81 ms * 79 ms
17 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 40 ms 40 ms 41 ms

http://www.inway.cz/cgi-bin/traceroute

15 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 161.057 ms * 155.622 ms
18 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 196.913 ms 195.299 ms 195.077 ms

http://www.eu.org/cgi-bin/nph-traceroute

18 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 111.920 ms * 113.348 ms
20 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 169.422 ms 168.558 ms 168.314 ms

http://www.pacwan.fr/cgi-bin/nph-traceroute

17 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 280 ms (ttl=238!) 281 ms (ttl=238!) *
16 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 173 ms (ttl=50!) 175 ms (ttl=50!) 177 ms (ttl=50!)

http://www.helios.de/cgi-bin/nph-trace.cgi

21 g50.ba01.b002782-1.mia01.atlas.cogentco.com (66.28.6.54) 197 ms * 196 ms
19 box01.humaniq.com (207.246.131.48) 189 ms 188 ms 188 ms

NICE
thank you that is exactly what I was looking for

You are the Man

Sure. But traceroutes don't always correlate with higher speed. A company that wants a speed claim can priority route packets. And echo speed is different from transfer speed.

AFAIK there is no set network speed benchmark to date. But there are many measurements. Of course if I paid 3 times more I would want a bit more overall performance. Probably most of that extra money is spent on fatter peering arrangements. It is as complex as buying a corporate car. Origination, destination, speed limits, troopers, road conditions and budget all play in.